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Tags church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 17th July 2017, 03:29 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Not a very impressive response sorry.

You missed the whole point which is something you seem to do quite effortlessly so often - not intentionally is it?

It is not any particular pope I am questioning the ability of, but the supposedly divinely inspired ability they exhibit as a whole.

Picking one example of a cardinal who may have been wrongly accused does not answer the fact so many clergy have been found guilty. A very poor response.

Sorry to harp on this but do you have anything to say about Pell?
The comment was actually significantly better than the post to which i was replying, particularly the guilty until proven innocent attitude.

Divinely inspired ability they exhibit as a whole? That is another absolutely ridiculous strawman. Really breathtaking.
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Old 17th July 2017, 04:28 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes, it is collapsing like a house of cards.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-0...-chief/8671440
I wouldn't go that far. Just that there are issues. If the Vatican ever has any real financial issues, all it has to do is sell a few paintings since it has one of if not the best art collections in the world.
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Old 17th July 2017, 05:57 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
"the Pew Research Center estimates that the 2010 Catholic population in Italy was 49.2 million (or 81% of the total population). In France, it was 37.9 million (60%); in Spain, 34.7 million (75%); and in Germany, 27.1 million (33%).4 These are estimates of the number of people in each country who currently self-identify as Catholic." http://www.pewforum.org/2013/03/05/d...ow-but-stable/
I would like to see statistics on religious observance. When I lived in Italy, you usually only saw older people going to church with many churches no longer in use and congregations consolidating. Baptisms were always big events but I suspect for many children, that's their first and last religious observance.
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Old 17th July 2017, 06:42 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I wouldn't go that far. Just that there are issues. If the Vatican ever has any real financial issues, all it has to do is sell a few paintings since it has one of if not the best art collections in the world.

Yes that should keep them in frocks and funny hats for years.
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Old 17th July 2017, 07:10 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

["......... d]ivinely inspired ability they exhibit as a whole?"*.....
That is another absolutely stunning example of your seemingly intentional dismembering of another's comment to support some notion of your own. Really breathtaking.

*Compare with the original from which you took those words, obviously omitting the single modifier crucial to the intended meaning of the original, thus allowing you to once again move the goalposts for no particular reason other than perhaps the polemical malice which others have noted from you in every thread you enter.
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Old 17th July 2017, 08:25 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The comment was actually significantly better than the post to which i was replying, particularly the guilty until proven innocent attitude.

Divinely inspired ability they exhibit as a whole? That is another absolutely ridiculous strawman. Really breathtaking.

If you have managed to catch your breath now and recovered from the flailing given to you by Peregrines above. You talk about "The One True Church" and I wonder how that definition is arrived at.

Other Christian churches seem to define themselves, and the difference between themselves, by scripture. They look to the Bible for guidance for one and some even claim to have a relationship with Jesus/God so get first hand instructions about what is the truth.

As I understand it this is not so with Catholics. Catholics concede much more authority to the clergy and the clergy are held in much higher esteem than in other churches. Priests speak on behalf of God, (during confessions for example), and are regarded beyond reproach. The Pope after all is the rock on which the church, the one true church, is built.

This is what is making the Catholic Church bleed so much now, I suggest. The authority of the Pope, and all those directly or indirectly appointed by him is being questioned, because of the obvious mistakes and the questionable character of many.
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Old 18th July 2017, 01:47 AM   #127
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From everything I was taught, the Assemblies of God was the "one true church".
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Old 18th July 2017, 01:59 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I wouldn't go that far. Just that there are issues. If the Vatican ever has any real financial issues, all it has to do is sell a few paintings since it has one of if not the best art collections in the world.
Trouble is, they would need to sell paintings at an ever increasing rate. Not to mention non income earning land such as empty churches. Eventually they will run out of money.
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:49 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Trouble is, they would need to sell paintings at an ever increasing rate. Not to mention non income earning land such as empty churches. Eventually they will run out of money.
Why they have plenty of sources of income, they own a lot of commercial property for example. Then there is all the money they make off of the health care industry while not providing women care at the level of standards of care.
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:12 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
That is another absolutely stunning example of your seemingly intentional dismembering of another's comment to support some notion of your own. Really breathtaking.

*Compare with the original from which you took those words, obviously omitting the single modifier crucial to the intended meaning of the original, thus allowing you to once again move the goalposts for no particular reason other than perhaps the polemical malice which others have noted from you in every thread you enter.
Take a gander at what strawman means next time will you? Really take a deep dive into it.

"other than perhaps the polemical malice which others have noted from you in every thread you enter." I laughed at this hilarious personal attack.
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Old 18th July 2017, 07:10 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I would like to see statistics on religious observance. When I lived in Italy, you usually only saw older people going to church with many churches no longer in use and congregations consolidating. Baptisms were always big events but I suspect for many children, that's their first and last religious observance.
What, not even weddings and funerals?
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Old 21st July 2017, 03:15 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
If you have managed to catch your breath now and recovered from the flailing given to you by Peregrines above. You talk about "The One True Church" and I wonder how that definition is arrived at.

Other Christian churches seem to define themselves, and the difference between themselves, by scripture. They look to the Bible for guidance for one and some even claim to have a relationship with Jesus/God so get first hand instructions about what is the truth.

As I understand it this is not so with Catholics. Catholics concede much more authority to the clergy and the clergy are held in much higher esteem than in other churches. Priests speak on behalf of God, (during confessions for example), and are regarded beyond reproach. The Pope after all is the rock on which the church, the one true church, is built.

This is what is making the Catholic Church bleed so much now, I suggest. The authority of the Pope, and all those directly or indirectly appointed by him is being questioned, because of the obvious mistakes and the questionable character of many.

As a Roman Catholic I would like to know your thoughts on the above The Big Dog.

Oh, just read of another scandal, (in Germany this time), about priests and boys in a choir.
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Old 21st July 2017, 03:50 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As a Roman Catholic I would like to know your thoughts on the above The Big Dog.

Oh, just read of another scandal, (in Germany this time), about priests and boys in a choir.
I didn't know you were Roman Catholic. Good for you.
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:03 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I didn't know you were Roman Catholic. Good for you.

Ha, Ha.

Found the news item:


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-1...report/8722678


Quote:
The 440-page report accuses 49 members of the Catholic Church of abusing young members of the Regensburger Domspazten boys choir between 1945 and the early 1990s.

"49 members of the Catholic Church of abusing young members"

One would suspect that a high percentage of the members of the church that were in contact with the boys.

The hits just keep on coming.
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:05 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I didn't know you were Roman Catholic. Good for you.
I know you struggle with English a lot, Let me elucidate his question.


He quoted this
Quote:
If you have managed to catch your breath now and recovered from the flailing given to you by Peregrines above. You talk about "The One True Church" and I wonder how that definition is arrived at.

Other Christian churches seem to define themselves, and the difference between themselves, by scripture. They look to the Bible for guidance for one and some even claim to have a relationship with Jesus/God so get first hand instructions about what is the truth.

As I understand it this is not so with Catholics. Catholics concede much more authority to the clergy and the clergy are held in much higher esteem than in other churches. Priests speak on behalf of God, (during confessions for example), and are regarded beyond reproach. The Pope after all is the rock on which the church, the one true church, is built.

This is what is making the Catholic Church bleed so much now, I suggest. The authority of the Pope, and all those directly or indirectly appointed by him is being questioned, because of the obvious mistakes and the questionable character of many.

and then ask what do you The Big Dog what your thoughts were on the above-quoted section, Now, Who is 'The Big Dog? That's right, You! Good job, 2 gold stickers today.
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:19 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As a Roman Catholic I would like to know your thoughts on the above The Big Dog.

Oh, just read of another scandal, (in Germany this time), about priests and boys in a choir.
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I know you struggle with English a lot, Let me elucidate his question.


He quoted this


and then ask what do you The Big Dog what your thoughts were on the above-quoted section, Now, Who is 'The Big Dog? That's right, You! Good job, 2 gold stickers today.
. Wanna try that again?
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:23 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Ha, Ha.

Found the news item:


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-1...report/8722678





"49 members of the Catholic Church of abusing young members"

One would suspect that a high percentage of the members of the church that were in contact with the boys.

The hits just keep on coming.
1945, and the article compares it to a concentration camp, when in fact there were actual concentration camps in Germany? Disgusting.

As I am sure we all are, we are horrified by the fact that homosexual pederasts infiltrated institutions like schools and churches. The article says they nipped it the bud 25 years ago. Good for them!
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:26 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
. Wanna try that again?
With infinite patience. The clause "as a Roman Catholic" in Thor 2's sentence did not refer to himself, the speaker of the sentence, it referred to you, the intended recipient of the question.

He wanted to know what you, a Roman Catholic, thought of his earlier statement.
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:34 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
With infinite patience. The clause "as a Roman Catholic" in Thor 2's sentence did not refer to himself, the speaker of the sentence, it referred to you, the intended recipient of the question.

He wanted to know what you, a Roman Catholic, thought of his earlier statement.
With infinite patience, I thought he was asking as a Roman Catholic, as he stated.

Because I usually answer as a member of this forum, don't you?

I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

I am *********** cool like that.
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:34 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
1945, and the article compares it to a concentration camp, when in fact there were actual concentration camps in Germany? Disgusting.

As I am sure we all are, we are horrified by the fact that homosexual pederasts infiltrated institutions like schools and churches. The article says they nipped it the bud 25 years ago. Good for them!

Yes good for them but don't lets mix up homosexuals with pedophiles. When I was a kid they were lumped together but these days we know better.

What I would like to get your take on is what do you, as a Roman Catholic, think about my reasoning in the above post, about why the Catholic church is bleeding so much now. You know that stuff about Catholicism being more about the ordained people of church than direct reference to scripture.
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:38 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes good for them but don't lets mix up homosexuals with pedophiles. When I was a kid they were lumped together but these days we know better.

What I would like to get your take on is what do you, as a Roman Catholic, think about my reasoning in the above post, about why the Catholic church is bleeding so much now. You know that stuff about Catholicism being more about the ordained people of church than direct reference to scripture.
How about if they were homosexual pedophiles?

As a member of the forum, I thought it was nonsense.
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Old 21st July 2017, 04:52 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
How about if they were homosexual pedophiles?

As a member of the forum, I thought it was nonsense.

From my dictionary:


Quote:
paedophile |ˈpiːdə(ʊ)fʌɪl| (US pedophile)
noun
a person who is sexually attracted to children.

The inclusion of homosexual in your description is not necessary but may indicate a bias of yours, to combine the two different kinds of sexual persuasion.

So you thought my ideas were nonsense then - no explanation why?
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Old 21st July 2017, 05:09 PM   #143
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Question for The Big Dog: are you a member of the Roman Catholic Church?
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Old 21st July 2017, 05:13 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
With infinite patience, I thought he was asking as a Roman Catholic, as he stated.
I submit that you did not - that you actually knew exactly what he was talking about, and just professed the other interpretation in order to be annoying.

Furthermore, now that it has been explained to you what everybody else could see perfectly well, are you going to answer the question and give us a Roman Catholic's opinion on the post?
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Old 21st July 2017, 06:30 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
From my dictionary:





The inclusion of homosexual in your description is not necessary but may indicate a bias of yours, to combine the two different kinds of sexual persuasion.

So you thought my ideas were nonsense then - no explanation why?
Odd, that was LITERALLY the opposite of what you just said.

No explanation necessary, you have demonstrated no understanding of any faith/religion.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 03:42 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Odd, that was LITERALLY the opposite of what you just said.

No explanation necessary, you have demonstrated no understanding of any faith/religion.

I'm sorry you lost me on that first line.

Regarding my hypothesis:

Quote:
Other Christian churches seem to define themselves, and the difference between themselves, by scripture. They look to the Bible for guidance for one and some even claim to have a relationship with Jesus/God so get first hand instructions about what is the truth.

As I understand it this is not so with Catholics. Catholics concede much more authority to the clergy and the clergy are held in much higher esteem than in other churches. Priests speak on behalf of God, (during confessions for example), and are regarded beyond reproach. The Pope after all is the rock on which the church, the one true church, is built.

As someone who is lacking in any understanding of any faith/religion I would like to know where I have gone wrong in the above.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 06:35 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I'm sorry you lost me on that first line.

Regarding my hypothesis:




As someone who is lacking in any understanding of any faith/religion I would like to know where I have gone wrong in the above.
You are correct and then some. You have not gone wrong in any substantive way.

In the RCC, the priest is a necessary intercessor between you and god. No way around that.

When I was a kid, we had a roulette as to which "sins" one would confess in the wooden box. The game was to see who would get the least "Hail Mary's" as penance. It got a bit outrageous.

In any event, at the time, there would be a queue outside the confessional and there would be two or three confessionals. One always waited to see which was the most fast moving queue before joining. Chop, chop, lets not wait about.

Once in the guilt booth, one went about the task of regurgitating the trite sins aplenty, even if one had never done it just to shut up the quavering voice of the boring old fart at the other side of the grill who you knew was borking vulnerable little boys on the side.

Bottom line is, the RCC thought of this as a mode of mind control. The never noticed when all of us flipped over to outright mockery.

As children, we had perforce to go to confession. And there was a formula.

Quote:
I told X lies, I disobeyed my parents Y times and so forth.
One simply made it up out of whole cloth. I can state with confidence that I made all of it up with the assurance that at worst, I would be assigned some number of Hail Mary's and our fathers and possibly Glory be's as penance. Did we actually do it? Like hell we did. "nur, nur, nur jebus, nur, nur, mary, nur nur nur god". Goodbye and good luck, I am out of this nonsense.

Around the time that I and my siblings were still living at home, my father instituted an daily recital of the Rosary.

Instant fail. Everyone found some reason to be elsewhere and he gave up because nobody would turn up.

Now, the god botherers will claim that I am inflicting my atheism upon my children. That is where they are wrong.

I have made it my business to not do so. I impose nothing. I have made it my business to NOT do so. I continue to be astonished that my kids apply logic without prompting. The best I can do is cheer them on. Think for yourselves is the order of the day, and I must be doing something right because they do without any prompting from me.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 06:41 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Question for The Big Dog: are you a member of the Roman Catholic Church?
Wasting your time. TBD refuses to identify what denomination out of the thousands to which he belongs. Why? I have no idea. One might think that he would decline to go the route of the petrine imaginary denial.

Nevertheless, such question has been ruled a violation of the MA so it might be best to drop that line of questioning
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Old 22nd July 2017, 06:48 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You are correct and then some. You have not gone wrong in any substantive way.

In the RCC, the priest is a necessary intercessor between you and god. No way around that.

...........

Thanks for that abaddon. A most informative as well as entertaining post as usual.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 07:35 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for that abaddon. A most informative as well as entertaining post as usual.
You're welcome. The problem is that our proponent is so ashamed that they are embarrassed to state their allegiance, being in full knowledge that whichever denomination is so nominated will be replete with kiddie diddlers. You may expect no straight answer.

As raised, I was RCC. Before I hit double digits in age, I already had it figured out. Molestation of the vulnerable is endemic in all priesthoods. So it matters not if our protagonist picks a denomination. One is as evil as the other. You don't want to know what I have experienced. I am lucky. I was sufficiently informed that I could eyeball the pervs and they promptly backed off (thanks mom and pop). Nevertheless, there were those who had not that advantage. To my shame, I should have stood up for them too, but did not. It was devil take the hindmost. But I was a kid at the time. Decades later, my actions might have been different, unfortunately, these decades of experience are not to hand when you are a kid.

At the time, it was a huge step to go to the plate on my own behalf, let alone step up for somebody else. As a kid, I had not that bandwidth, I had to protect myself first and foremost. And I did. Nevertheless, I regret that I did not step up for those more vulnerable. In those puberty years, one tends to have a self centric, self preservation view. Two of my compadres suicided because of it. I was lucky. My parents made it clear that I was my very own person, on foot of which, I eyeballed the bastages eye to eye. They didn't like that much, so I was marked as an avoid at all costs.
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Old 23rd July 2017, 01:12 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You're welcome. The problem is that our proponent is so ashamed that they are embarrassed to state their allegiance, being in full knowledge that whichever denomination is so nominated will be replete with kiddie diddlers. You may expect no straight answer.
You can't think of any other reasons why he might be reluctant to provide details that are, in fact, quite personal?
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Old 23rd July 2017, 02:55 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You're welcome. The problem is that our proponent is so ashamed that they are embarrassed to state their allegiance, being in full knowledge that whichever denomination is so nominated will be replete with kiddie diddlers. You may expect no straight answer.

As raised, I was RCC. Before I hit double digits in age, I already had it figured out. Molestation of the vulnerable is endemic in all priesthoods. So it matters not if our protagonist picks a denomination. One is as evil as the other. You don't want to know what I have experienced. I am lucky. I was sufficiently informed that I could eyeball the pervs and they promptly backed off (thanks mom and pop). Nevertheless, there were those who had not that advantage. To my shame, I should have stood up for them too, but did not. It was devil take the hindmost. But I was a kid at the time. Decades later, my actions might have been different, unfortunately, these decades of experience are not to hand when you are a kid.

At the time, it was a huge step to go to the plate on my own behalf, let alone step up for somebody else. As a kid, I had not that bandwidth, I had to protect myself first and foremost. And I did. Nevertheless, I regret that I did not step up for those more vulnerable. In those puberty years, one tends to have a self centric, self preservation view. Two of my compadres suicided because of it. I was lucky. My parents made it clear that I was my very own person, on foot of which, I eyeballed the bastages eye to eye. They didn't like that much, so I was marked as an avoid at all costs.

It is interesting that you, (and your parents too I suspect from what you said), was aware that molestation of the vulnerable was endemic in all priesthoods. This was some time ago I would imagine, and I wonder therefore how many other Catholics at the time, were similarly aware of this. Even so it seems, the abuse went on for many years until the big exposure recently.

You mustn't be to hard on yourself for not stepping up for those more vulnerable in your youth. I think we all look back at some time or other when we could have done something more and didn't. I certainly do.
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Old 23rd July 2017, 03:22 PM   #153
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I would caution against the assumption that everyone else's experience is the same as one's own. Even just going by the numbers, a majority of priests don't molest.

The Principle of Charity is dead in this thread, it seems.
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Old 24th July 2017, 02:57 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would caution against the assumption that everyone else's experience is the same as one's own. Even just going by the numbers, a majority of priests don't molest.

The Principle of Charity is dead in this thread, it seems.

Yes most uncharitable of us I'm sure:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-0...sydney/8242600

No your right of course a majority don't but a surprisingly large percentage do.

Quote:
More than 20 per cent of the members of some Catholic religious orders — including Marist Brothers and Christian Brothers — were allegedly involved in child sexual abuse, a royal commission hearing in Sydney has been told.
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Old 24th July 2017, 04:08 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes most uncharitable of us I'm sure:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-0...sydney/8242600

No your right of course a majority don't but a surprisingly large percentage do.
Usually I don't take poor grammar to task, but this one was so bad I had to read it three times before I could figure out what you meant.

Originally Posted by Thor (improved)
No. You're right, of course--a majority don't but a surprisingly large percentage do.
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Old 24th July 2017, 04:14 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Usually I don't take poor grammar to task, but this one was so bad I had to read it three times before I could figure out what you meant.

Many thanks.
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Old 24th July 2017, 05:22 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I would like to see statistics on religious observance. When I lived in Italy, you usually only saw older people going to church with many churches no longer in use and congregations consolidating. Baptisms were always big events but I suspect for many children, that's their first and last religious observance.
Probably also some weddings and funerals with that being pretty much it.........
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Old 24th July 2017, 05:28 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
What, not even weddings and funerals?
Hard to say. You saw the big church weddings but I don't know enough to know about the number of civil weddings. I was in the north of Italy which I gather is less religious than the south.
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Old 26th July 2017, 03:13 PM   #159
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Just a quick update re Pell.

He attended court yesterday and entered a plea of not guilty. The trial will start in October.

Something else occurs to me.

When Pell was giving evidence before the Royal Commission, I know his testimony was regarded as questionable, by the Commissioner and his assistant at the time, as they expressed this quite clearly. Now when the inquiry is finalised towards the end of the year, will charges of perjury be made against those suspected of it? All testimony was given under oath as I understand it.
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Old 27th July 2017, 04:44 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just a quick update re Pell.

He attended court yesterday and entered a plea of not guilty. The trial will start in October.

Something else occurs to me.

When Pell was giving evidence before the Royal Commission, I know his testimony was regarded as questionable, by the Commissioner and his assistant at the time, as they expressed this quite clearly. Now when the inquiry is finalised towards the end of the year, will charges of perjury be made against those suspected of it? All testimony was given under oath as I understand it.
I think the question about bringing perjury charges against Pell is rather academic. If he is found guilty then he could be facing a long prison sentence. If you spell not guilty then trying to prove a charge of perjury would be difficult.

Edit. October is just the date of his next court appearance, not the start of his trial.

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