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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 13th August 2017, 11:36 PM   #201
Thor 2
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And so it goes on:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ations/8804040


Quote:
The Catholic Church has signalled it will oppose any move to force priests to report details of child sexual abuse received during confession, despite calls from the royal commission to make it a legal requirement.

Clergy who fail to report information about child sexual abuse heard during confession would face criminal charges under a series of sweeping changes to the criminal justice system recommended in a new report.

Interesting to see what will happen if it becomes law for priests to report to police what they find out in confession.
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Old 14th August 2017, 12:39 AM   #202
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Covering up horrendous crimes goes beyond delusion, it's evil.
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Old 14th August 2017, 12:57 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
And so it goes on:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ations/8804040





Interesting to see what will happen if it becomes law for priests to report to police what they find out in confession.
Simple solution. Put a sign outside confessionals saying do not confess to child sex abuse. Then if someone does confess the priest knows they are being setup.
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Old 14th August 2017, 04:41 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Interesting to see what will happen if it becomes law for priests to report to police what they find out in confession.
A whole pile of priests will go to jail.

Canon law is unbreakable for priests. It's immediate excommunication - and therefore eternity in hell - if they break the seal of the confessional. There have been quite a few priests who have already said that they're willing to go to jail rather than reveal anything said in the confessional.
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Old 14th August 2017, 12:28 PM   #205
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Exactly that.

If they are real priests they have to ignore what the courts demand.
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Old 14th August 2017, 01:18 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A whole pile of priests will go to jail.

Canon law is unbreakable for priests. It's immediate excommunication - and therefore eternity in hell - if they break the seal of the confessional. There have been quite a few priests who have already said that they're willing to go to jail rather than reveal anything said in the confessional.
Yea it is as bad as when this hospital saved a woman's life.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126985072

She should have let the woman die. That would be the catholic thing to do.
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Old 14th August 2017, 01:30 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post

She should have let the woman die. That would be the catholic thing to do.
That is a very bold statement, i am a bit surprised that you think the woman should have been allowed to die.

And now the rest of the story, the women's life was saved and the nun was reinstated to the Catholic Church.
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Old 14th August 2017, 01:34 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea it is as bad as when this hospital saved a woman's life.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126985072

She should have let the woman die. That would be the catholic thing to do.
I did read your post and link though I know the church admits abortion to save the mother since generations ago. The link says that "directive 47" is the Catholic thing to do, and they did it.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:07 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is a very bold statement, i am a bit surprised that you think the woman should have been allowed to die.

And now the rest of the story, the women's life was saved and the nun was reinstated to the Catholic Church.

How can you write something that is so blatantly dishonest The Big Dog. You know perfectly well pondering turtle was saying this in a satirical manner.

If the nun was reinstated in the Catholic Church then well and good but the article did not say this. If you have other information you should name your source.

From the article:

Quote:
But according to the Rev. Thomas Doyle, a canon lawyer, the bishop "clearly had other alternatives than to declare her excommunicated." Doyle says Olmsted could have looked at the situation, realized that the nun faced an agonizing choice and shown her some mercy. He adds that this case highlights a "gross inequity" in how the church chooses to handle scandal.

..........

Doyle says no pedophile priests have been excommunicated. When priests have been caught, he says, their bishops have protected them, and it has taken years or decades to defrock them, if ever.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:13 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
She should have let the woman die. That would be the catholic thing to do.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How can you write something that is so blatantly dishonest The Big Dog. You know perfectly well pondering turtle was saying this in a satirical manner.
The section in question is highlighted.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:18 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A whole pile of priests will go to jail.

Canon law is unbreakable for priests. It's immediate excommunication - and therefore eternity in hell - if they break the seal of the confessional. There have been quite a few priests who have already said that they're willing to go to jail rather than reveal anything said in the confessional.

So we may have a pile of priests in Jail in Australia if the commission's recommendations are acted upon, and it becomes law that priests must reveal what they learn from confessions.

I wonder what the law is in other lands. Have other countries got down this road and locked up priests? Just another way life is being made difficult for the Catholic Church today.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:21 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The section in question is highlighted.

You persist with this!

Do you really think others believe in your sincerity here.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:22 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You persist with this!

Do you really think others believe in your sincerity here.
you were the one questioning PT's sincerity.

sad
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:44 PM   #214
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A bit more on the subject of confessions and breaking the law:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...-state/8805126


Quote:
Ireland passed the Children First Act in 2015, which required mandatory reporting from clergy, and if the experience there is anything to go by Australia may need to ready itself to punish Catholic priests who refuse to break the seal of confession.

That's if law enforcement can catch and convict them. The possible penalties for failing to comply are not yet clear. American courts have tried to insist priests break the seal of confession, going so far as to threaten them with jail.
There is a statement in the article about the Pope being the only one who can reverse an excommunication also. How does this fit in with your story about the nun who got de-excomunicated The Big Dog?
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:46 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
you were the one questioning PT's sincerity.

sad
No one is questioning his sincerity, just your reading comprehension.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:55 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No one is questioning his sincerity, just your reading comprehension.
'k.

agree to disagree
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Old 14th August 2017, 09:38 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
She should have let the woman die. That would be the catholic thing to do.
I think it is clear that he is referring to what should be done under Catholic teaching, not his own feelings.

But English is tough. Others here are likely better on the pedagogical side than I am if you need something more.
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Old 15th August 2017, 03:31 AM   #218
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Now, we're playing Chinese whispers ...

I don't see any difference between the way it works for psychiatrists and Catholic priests: obligation to report on-going crimes and soon-to-happen crimes.

What to do about old crimes? There's the law, there's Ethics for psychiatrists and there's dogma for priests. Dogma is above human law, otherwise it wouldn't be dogma. No self-respecting "true religion" would allow dogma to be subjected to the "whims" of a judge, especially a protestant one. And that's the way it should be.

Let the padre whose murderous pennant confessed to have told him his crime be pronounced guilty by a jury of protestants and rot in jail! Or better, death penalty American style for him!
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Old 15th August 2017, 03:56 AM   #219
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To be fair, there are those within the Catholic church who agree with the recommendation. I don't know what the proportion is, but a couple of them are mentioned in this article:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...broken/8809272
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Old 15th August 2017, 04:06 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I did read your post and link though I know the church admits abortion to save the mother since generations ago. The link says that "directive 47" is the Catholic thing to do, and they did it.
No it does not. It allows procedures to save the mother that as a side effect terminate the pregnancy but those procedures can not be abortions. So you can have an emergency hysterectomy instead of an abortion. These cause more damage and unnecessary suffering which is apparently what the church wants. See Mother Teresa for more on this.
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Old 15th August 2017, 04:12 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think it is clear that he is referring to what should be done under Catholic teaching, not his own feelings.

But English is tough. Others here are likely better on the pedagogical side than I am if you need something more.
Just remember to keep pregnant women having complications away from catholic hospitals. No good ever comes of that.

See

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ealth-partners

This is the problem of letting people who fetishize suffering run hospitals.
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Old 15th August 2017, 04:23 AM   #222
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There's also these guys - a priest and an archbishop, who show that it's slightly more nuanced than we might assume.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ective/8807216

Quote:
"I would say, 'I cannot give you absolution for your sins unless you show a firm purpose of amendment'," Father Brennan said.

"'And given what you and I now know about child sexual abuse, I think it is imperative that you present yourself to the authorities … because there is no guarantee that you will not re-offend. Unless you are prepared to do that I will deny you absolution'.

Archbishop Hart said sometimes, "offenders are so deluded about what they've done", they do not seek broader advice outside confession.

"It's a difficult case and I'm totally committed to taking appropriate action but I would try to get it out of the confessional so that we could make sure that that never happened again," he said.

However, he said anything said in the confessional was sacrosanct.

"But what I would do in that situation is to say, 'Look, perhaps you could go and talk to your teacher, or perhaps you could go and talk to someone you trusted'.

"Or, 'Can you talk about this outside?' So that then we can get it outside of that relationship and something can be done. I would be totally committed to that."
Since absolution is the purpose of confession, denying them that not only defeats the reason they are there in the first place, it prevents them from receiving the things that Catholics consider to be extremely important - absolution and the Eucharist, since you can't take the Eucharist without confession and absolution. And the Eucharist is kind of a big deal to Catholics. Like, a really big deal. One of the biggest.

There are a couple of other aspects to the whole deal in that article, like the fact that confession is supposed to be anonymous.

I'm not saying this to defend the Catholic policy. On the contrary, I think mandatory reporting is essential. But I think it's also important for us to recognise that it's just a little bit more complicated than we might assume.
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Old 15th August 2017, 09:29 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Since absolution is the purpose of confession, denying them that not only defeats the reason they are there in the first place, it prevents them from receiving the things that Catholics consider to be extremely important - absolution and the Eucharist, since you can't take the Eucharist without confession and absolution. And the Eucharist is kind of a big deal to Catholics. Like, a really big deal. One of the biggest.
It also gives the confessor the ability to get something off their chest by telling it to someone, whom they know is sworn to secrecy. That igs an enormous psychological advantage.

AFAIK, no other Christian denomination and no other religion has anything comparable to the Catholic confession. I don't see why a secular government should give Catholics an unfair advantage over others. Furthermore, a priest organizes someone's hobby they exercise on Sunday, just like a football coach or a Scout leader. We don't extend them the same right to silence either.
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Old 15th August 2017, 09:40 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It also gives the confessor the ability to get something off their chest by telling it to someone, whom they know is sworn to secrecy. That igs an enormous psychological advantage.

AFAIK, no other Christian denomination and no other religion has anything comparable to the Catholic confession. I don't see why a secular government should give Catholics an unfair advantage over others. Furthermore, a priest organizes someone's hobby they exercise on Sunday, just like a football coach or a Scout leader. We don't extend them the same right to silence either.
secular governments recognize numerous confidential privileges (press, attorney, clergy, spousal, medical) already.

as far as your hobby comment, i don't recall "football' or 'scouting" being mentioned in the First Amendment
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Old 15th August 2017, 10:43 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No it does not. It allows procedures to save the mother that as a side effect terminate the pregnancy but those procedures can not be abortions. So you can have an emergency hysterectomy instead of an abortion. These cause more damage and unnecessary suffering which is apparently what the church wants. See Mother Teresa for more on this.
That may be near the truth in the Land of the Donald. But it isn't what the Church teaches:

Quote:
«I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being»

Evangelium Vitae, John Paul II, 1995
It's the twisted dirty interpretation of Usian minds (catholics, protestants and anti-theists) that of considering "as a means" as including therapeutic "abortion", which is not abortion for the Church by definition as the pregnancy was not possible and the lost of the foetus is not other than the unwanted consequence of a necessary medical procedure.

Zealots and assorted idiots will focus in the "willed as an end of as a means" instead of the subject of the phrase "direct abortion". "As a means" in the context of "direct abortion" implies such things as family planning and eugenics. As a means is abortion because you're having a trisomy-21 child, or to put it better, a trisomy-13 child. I wouldn't never hold the Church's view on this, but I can understand the ideology behind: if the mother is not at risk, let nature follow its course because yada-yada-****god****.

The whole abortion thing is not a subject that I care about, as it seems I'd have no place in taking any decision about a child I should father except to pay the bills.
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Old 15th August 2017, 03:21 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's also these guys - a priest and an archbishop, who show that it's slightly more nuanced than we might assume.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ective/8807216


Since absolution is the purpose of confession, denying them that not only defeats the reason they are there in the first place, it prevents them from receiving the things that Catholics consider to be extremely important - absolution and the Eucharist, since you can't take the Eucharist without confession and absolution. And the Eucharist is kind of a big deal to Catholics. Like, a really big deal. One of the biggest.

..........

A good point but one has to wonder what percentage of practising Catholics really believe this stuff. Given that so many Catholics play fast and loose with many of the churches directives, about birth control and such, one has to wonder about this also. Abandon gave us an insight of his and others experiences when a practising Catholic in his youth.

I wonder about the following extract from your quote in your post also:

Quote:
"I would say, 'I cannot give you absolution for your sins unless you show a firm purpose of amendment'," Father Brennan said.

"'And given what you and I now know about child sexual abuse, I think it is imperative that you present yourself to the authorities … because there is no guarantee that you will not re-offend. Unless you are prepared to do that I will deny you absolution'.

Does the priest have the right to deny absolution according to the rules, or is Father Brennan shooting from the hip, or perhaps telling porkies here?
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Old 16th August 2017, 04:20 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A good point but one has to wonder what percentage of practising Catholics really believe this stuff. Given that so many Catholics play fast and loose with many of the churches directives, about birth control and such, one has to wonder about this also. Abandon gave us an insight of his and others experiences when a practising Catholic in his youth.

I wonder about the following extract from your quote in your post also:




Does the priest have the right to deny absolution according to the rules, or is Father Brennan shooting from the hip, or perhaps telling porkies here?

Canon law would apply...
Quote:
Can. 843 §1. Sacred ministers cannot deny the sacraments to those who seek them at appropriate times, are properly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them.
Pretty ambiguous, no?
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Old 16th August 2017, 05:25 AM   #228
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So, how does that play? There's no god but sacrament is somewhat important?

I thought the topic to be whether a priest should be forced by law to denounce someone who tells their crimes in the confessional (short answer: yes) and whether a priest should refuse to comply (short answer: yes).

What does it have to do with that if the criminal is looking for relief through a ritual that connects him to an imaginary friend?
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Old 16th August 2017, 02:14 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
So, how does that play? There's no god but sacrament is somewhat important?

I thought the topic to be whether a priest should be forced by law to denounce someone who tells their crimes in the confessional (short answer: yes) and whether a priest should refuse to comply (short answer: yes).

What does it have to do with that if the criminal is looking for relief through a ritual that connects him to an imaginary friend?


Well the point is that many priests have stated they will not comply, and this Father Brennan dude is trying to get around the issue, by saying he would deny absolution to someone who did not give himself up to the police. By doing this he thinks he is compelling the sinner to own up, so he can get absolution and take the Eucharist, thus avoiding an eternity in hell.

On the surface a few years in jail is a small price to pay, compared to an eternity in hell, so one would think Father Brennan's strategy would work. All it needs is the strong faith of the sinner - which is the questionable part.

We also have the issue of whether the priest is allowed to make up rules like this and as abaddon has shown there is some ambiguity according to Canon law about it.
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Old 16th August 2017, 03:35 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well the point is that many priests have stated they will not comply, and this Father Brennan dude is trying to get around the issue, by saying he would deny absolution to someone who did not give himself up to the police. By doing this he thinks he is compelling the sinner to own up, so he can get absolution and take the Eucharist, thus avoiding an eternity in hell.

On the surface a few years in jail is a small price to pay, compared to an eternity in hell, so one would think Father Brennan's strategy would work. All it needs is the strong faith of the sinner - which is the questionable part.

We also have the issue of whether the priest is allowed to make up rules like this and as abaddon has shown there is some ambiguity according to Canon law about it.
Not sure about that, but the priest should judge if the repentance is genuine and deny the sacraments if it's not. There's much leeway there.

But this all doesn't relate to the point that a priest should never break the seal of the confessional unless there's an ongoing crime, no matter it mandated by the court.

On the other hand, all criminals should convert to any protestant or evangelical confession at once and cut the intermediary. That would suit them much much much better. If caught -not by the gossip of an untrue catholic priest- they may become like the fictional Boyd Crowder in Justified. I strongly advice all criminals to do that and leave the cataholic church at once. Even Pope Pancho would agree with that.
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Old 16th August 2017, 03:35 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
So, how does that play? There's no god but sacrament is somewhat important?

I thought the topic to be whether a priest should be forced by law to denounce someone who tells their crimes in the confessional (short answer: yes) and whether a priest should refuse to comply (short answer: yes).

What does it have to do with that if the criminal is looking for relief through a ritual that connects him to an imaginary friend?
Forgiveness. In the confessional, the appellant is anonymous. Were priests legally compelled to reveal that which is confessed, at best they could claim that some person said something. That's useless.
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Old 16th August 2017, 04:25 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Not sure about that, but the priest should judge if the repentance is genuine and deny the sacraments if it's not. There's much leeway there.

But this all doesn't relate to the point that a priest should never break the seal of the confessional unless there's an ongoing crime, no matter it mandated by the court.

On the other hand, all criminals should convert to any protestant or evangelical confession at once and cut the intermediary. That would suit them much much much better. If caught -not by the gossip of an untrue catholic priest- they may become like the fictional Boyd Crowder in Justified. I strongly advice all criminals to do that and leave the cataholic church at once. Even Pope Pancho would agree with that.

There has been evidence given at the Royal Commission that some priests had made confessions and got on to re-offend. So is this an ongoing crime?

Sorry I cannot understand your last paragraph.
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Old 16th August 2017, 04:29 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Forgiveness. In the confessional, the appellant is anonymous. Were priests legally compelled to reveal that which is confessed, at best they could claim that some person said something. That's useless.

Hey that's a good point but in reality does it hold true? I wonder how many priests would not recognise the voice of one of their colleagues.
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Old 16th August 2017, 10:09 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hey that's a good point but in reality does it hold true? I wonder how many priests would not recognise the voice of one of their colleagues.
One is at liberty to go to confession wherever one chooses. Even in the case of a priest, it would be trivial to find one unknown to oneself, especially given the RCC habit of moving them around the world at random for no apparent reason.
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Old 17th August 2017, 01:54 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There has been evidence given at the Royal Commission that some priests had made confessions and got on to re-offend. So is this an ongoing crime?
I used ongoing crime to depict those sinful behaviours (from the standpoint of the church) involving crimes that are about to be perpetrated which nature was shared in the confessional.

Re-offenders are not "ongoing criminals" as some would like to imagine.
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:17 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
One is at liberty to go to confession wherever one chooses. Even in the case of a priest, it would be trivial to find one unknown to oneself, especially given the RCC habit of moving them around the world at random for no apparent reason.

Perhaps those previously non apparent reasons are becoming apparent now?
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:59 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Perhaps those previously non apparent reasons are becoming apparent now?
Brendan Smyth springs to mind.
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:06 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
secular governments recognize numerous confidential privileges (press, attorney, clergy, spousal, medical) already.
If you confess to your lawyer or doctor that you have committed a serious crime, I'm pretty darn sure that they are legally obliged to report it. That's what mandatory reporting means.
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:09 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We also have the issue of whether the priest is allowed to make up rules like this and as abaddon has shown there is some ambiguity according to Canon law about it.
If there's ambiguity, then he's pretty much by definition not "making up rules". Canon law allows it.
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:19 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post

Are yes what an example you have given. This guy makes some of our Australian pedophiles look almost saintly by comparison.

Quote:
During a period of over 40 years, Smyth sexually abused and indecently assaulted at least 143[1][2] children in parishes in Belfast, Dublin and the United States. His actions were frequently hidden from police and the public by Roman Catholic officials.

I wonder if The Big Dog has some words to say in defence of this guy and the actions of the "One True Church" in protecting him.
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