ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

Reply
Old 17th August 2017, 03:25 PM   #241
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Are yes what an example you have given. This guy makes some of our Australian pedophiles look almost saintly by comparison.




I wonder if The Big Dog has some words to say in defence of this guy and the actions of the "One True Church" in protecting him.
Yep. The catholic game of "Pass the Toxic Parcel" and admit nothing.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2017, 06:37 PM   #242
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 14,169
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Are yes what an example you have given. This guy makes some of our Australian pedophiles look almost saintly by comparison.




I wonder if The Big Dog has some words to say in defence of this guy and the actions of the "One True Church" in protecting him.
He's not a true Scotsman.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2017, 06:53 PM   #243
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,143
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Are yes what an example you have given. This guy makes some of our Australian pedophiles look almost saintly by comparison.




I wonder if The Big Dog has some words to say in defence of this guy and the actions of the "One True Church" in protecting him.
I am not the The Big Dog. Nor do I speak for him. Nor should any of what I have written below be taken as a defence of the RCC.

What I will say is that the RCC are not the only ones guilty here. Society in general is also guilty. Parents of the children should have been given the education to be able to detect and know what to do when their children were abused. Many did detect it, yet there were no mass prosecutions of priests in the 20th century. If the parents had reported it to the police and the police took it seriously then the whole thing would have been dealt with a long time ago.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2017, 08:04 PM   #244
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I am not the The Big Dog. Nor do I speak for him. Nor should any of what I have written below be taken as a defence of the RCC.

What I will say is that the RCC are not the only ones guilty here. Society in general is also guilty. Parents of the children should have been given the education to be able to detect and know what to do when their children were abused. Many did detect it, yet there were no mass prosecutions of priests in the 20th century. If the parents had reported it to the police and the police took it seriously then the whole thing would have been dealt with a long time ago.

I hear what you are saying and yes others should have taken action. Parents and police should have taken it more seriously in the past, and not left it in the hands of the church. There may have been a perception that things were being done when a priest vanished from a church. When just relocated somewhere else where he could re-offend, the people in the original church would not know but the RCC hierarchy certainly did.

This thread is about the RCC and its action, or lack of, is the subject matter thereof.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.

Last edited by Thor 2; 17th August 2017 at 08:06 PM.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 07:50 AM   #245
GT/CS
Illuminator
 
GT/CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,787
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I am not the The Big Dog. Nor do I speak for him. Nor should any of what I have written below be taken as a defence of the RCC.

What I will say is that the RCC are not the only ones guilty here. Society in general is also guilty. Parents of the children should have been given the education to be able to detect and know what to do when their children were abused. Many did detect it, yet there were no mass prosecutions of priests in the 20th century. If the parents had reported it to the police and the police took it seriously then the whole thing would have been dealt with a long time ago.
You may not understand the priest/flock relationship. The priest represents god and can do no wrong.
__________________
Normal in a weird way.
GT/CS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 11:26 AM   #246
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
You may not understand the priest/flock relationship. The priest represents god and can do no wrong.
True. The veneration of the priesthood is a huge deal in RCC circles. "Bless me Father" and all of that pointless grovelling to cross dressing lunatics. One of the funniest was when the eastern orthodox condemned transgender folks. These guys.



Sure. Aren't they just fabulous?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 01:53 PM   #247
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
True. The veneration of the priesthood is a huge deal in RCC circles. "Bless me Father" and all of that pointless grovelling to cross dressing lunatics. One of the funniest was when the eastern orthodox condemned transgender folks. These guys.

http://communio.stblogs.org/wp-conte...-coalition.jpg

Sure. Aren't they just fabulous?

They sure look splendid. Do these Eastern Orthodox guys have a thing about beards just like the Muslims do?
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 02:05 PM   #248
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,740
Are they too in free-fall?
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 02:25 PM   #249
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,158
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Are they too in free-fall?
Some Eastern Orthodox priests are married, but they married before being ordained. In quixotic food for thought, they cannot be ordained and then marry. I don't seem to recall any reports of pedophilia among EO clergy.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 02:31 PM   #250
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,740
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Some Eastern Orthodox priests are married, but they married before being ordained. In quixotic food for thought, they cannot be ordained and then marry. I don't seem to recall any reports of pedophilia among EO clergy.
So, free-fall is reports of paedophilia now?
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 02:45 PM   #251
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Some Eastern Orthodox priests are married, but they married before being ordained. In quixotic food for thought, they cannot be ordained and then marry. I don't seem to recall any reports of pedophilia among EO clergy.

Perhaps it is something to look forward to in the future. Although (based on the numbers of adherents) the Eastern Orthodox Church (also known as Eastern Orthodoxy) is the second largest Christian communion in the world after the Roman Catholic Church, if you look at were they are located you may see why we don't hear about pedophilia today. In the USA, Canada, and Western Europe, Eastern Orthodox has a very small presence.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 02:59 PM   #252
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
So, free-fall is reports of paedophilia now?

Well the theme of this thread is about the rapid decline in the popularity of the RCC, as a result of the stench emanating from the church at the highest levels, because of the disclosures about child abuse and the efforts to conceal it by the hierarchy.

As I have mentioned before the RCC are most vulnerable here, because of the rather special elevated status of the clergy in the church. Others here seem to be on the same page as me on this issue including GT/CS who wrote - "You may not understand the priest/flock relationship. The priest represents god and can do no wrong."
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 03:12 PM   #253
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Another indicator of the rapid decline of the RCC is the diminishing number of Catholic Nuns in the West today. I can remember as a child seeing nuns in public was a common sight. Can't recall seeing one for years now.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...h-the-vatican/

There would seem to be some friction between the Vatican and the body representing the nuns also:

Quote:
While the church’s specific concerns with the nuns are complex, a few major areas were highlighted in a 2012 Vatican document, which said the LCWR was “silent on the right to life from conception to natural death” and that Roman Catholic views on the family and human sexuality “are not part of the LCWR agenda in a way that promotes Church teaching.” The document also raised concerns about “radical feminist themes” at programs sponsored by the LCWR, and cited addresses at LCWR assemblies that “manifest problematic statements and serious theological, even doctrinal errors.”
Radical feminists doning habits now and not banging the "no abortion" drum loud enough.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.

Last edited by Thor 2; 18th August 2017 at 03:20 PM.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 05:53 PM   #254
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,143
Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
You may not understand the priest/flock relationship. The priest represents god and can do no wrong.
You are agreeing with me. I think this has changed. This has caused many people not to go to the RCC services, contributing to their decline.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 08:21 PM   #255
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Another indicator of the rapid decline of the RCC is the diminishing number of Catholic Nuns in the West today. I can remember as a child seeing nuns in public was a common sight. Can't recall seeing one for years now.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...h-the-vatican/

There would seem to be some friction between the Vatican and the body representing the nuns also:



Radical feminists doning habits now and not banging the "no abortion" drum loud enough.
Well, there are two convents proximate to me. They could comfortably house hundreds and did in the 60s/70s. These days, they are down to single digits in both, rattling around the gloomy disused corridors. All of the remaining nuns wear "civvies" anyway. So it is not surprising not to see them so obviously.

Interestingly, I asked the question "Would it not make sense to merge in order to make best use of the facilities" (they are literally across the street from each other) and the answer was two-fold...

A: Can't do that because they are different orders (Bon Secour vs. Holy Faith)
Now why this means they could not share a honking great building without even having to cross paths is beyond reason. Maybe it's like the premiere league where players for different teams might transfer for a better celestial deal.

B: More tellingly, one or other of the properties would be sold and they don't like to relinquish property. Liquid assets like cash is something they avoid. If they were seen to sell off property for a bucket of loot, why, one might expect them to pay the court awarded compensation to abuse victims and we can't have that, oh no, dear me, oh my.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 01:02 AM   #256
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,740
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well the theme of this thread is about the rapid decline in the popularity of the RCC, as a result of the stench emanating from the church at the highest levels, because of the disclosures about child abuse and the efforts to conceal it by the hierarchy.
Yes, that is the theme of the thread. But I don't think it's realistic. The very existence of the castrati, to name one of many, didn't translate into any diminishment.

Religion is less popular today in general as a consequence of education, but mainly as a consequence of modern medicine (most importantly, pain killers), social security and assistance rights. Life isn't so primitive and scary, so the same way people don't develop their aggressive instincts to hunt boars, flay and butcher them, they don't need to develop their religious instincts to overcome the hard times in life.

But some have failed in such a way they cannot get rid of their religious instincts so they neuroticly convert them into persecution of religiosity and religious institutions. That's the paranoiac approach of anti-theists, the kind of faulty guys that make a majority here in the "religion..." threads, which twisted pseudo-atheist religiosity nauseates me.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 01:09 AM   #257
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Yes, that is the theme of the thread. But I don't think it's realistic. The very existence of the castrati, to name one of many, didn't translate into any diminishment.

Religion is less popular today in general as a consequence of education, but mainly as a consequence of modern medicine (most importantly, pain killers), social security and assistance rights. Life isn't so primitive and scary, so the same way people don't develop their aggressive instincts to hunt boars, flay and butcher them, they don't need to develop their religious instincts to overcome the hard times in life.

But some have failed in such a way they cannot get rid of their religious instincts so they neuroticly convert them into persecution of religiosity and religious institutions. That's the paranoiac approach of anti-theists, the kind of faulty guys that make a majority here in the "religion..." threads, which twisted pseudo-atheist religiosity nauseates me.
So you are OK with the child rape? The financial skullduggery? The spread of AIDS in Africa? The constant lying? The cover ups for pedos? The sexual repression of billions? The preaching of hate and bigotry? The suppression of and perversion of basic education?

Those don't nauseate you?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 01:38 AM   #258
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,740
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So you are OK with the child rape? The financial skullduggery? The spread of AIDS in Africa? The constant lying? The cover ups for pedos? The sexual repression of billions? The preaching of hate and bigotry? The suppression of and perversion of basic education?

Those don't nauseate you?
What's that? An even twister version of "if you're not with me, you're against me"?

I think you, like others, concentrate in the crimes as it's unlawful to despise Catholics (and any other Christian denomination) because they are Catholics. That's the way bigotry and hate work today: you cannot say a negroe is lumpen or subhuman, but you can become enamoured of a tree downtown and use all the hate speech you want to smear -and eventually physically attack- anyone who is in favour of felling it.

Many of you are only saying "see this crimes ... you have to stop being Catholic and become an atheist". Well, if they did they would become something many of you have miserably failed to achieve -atheism-, though you aggressively say the opposite.

I'll say it once more: many people with religious interests are more attracted by sin than by virtue. That includes those religious freaks self-identified as "atheists", what they're really not. Their position is a) a religious one, and b) deeply immoral. Only paedophilia is worse, that's why, I think, they're so fixated in it. It probably makes them feel well about themselves and continue to be blind to what they are really doing here, and over there.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 03:30 AM   #259
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
What's that? An even twister version of "if you're not with me, you're against me"?
Nope.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I think you, like others, concentrate in the crimes as it's unlawful to despise Catholics (and any other Christian denomination) because they are Catholics.
No it isn't. And strawman in any case. Nobody has claimed to "despise" catholics in this thread. Certainly not me. This thread is about the institution not the individuals. And as an institution it is vile and corrupt.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
That's the way bigotry and hate work today: you cannot say a negroe is lumpen or subhuman, but you can become enamoured of a tree downtown and use all the hate speech you want to smear -and eventually physically attack- anyone who is in favour of felling it.
And another strawman on the same lines. Where do you get this stuff?

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Many of you are only saying "see this crimes ... you have to stop being Catholic and become an atheist". Well, if they did they would become something many of you have miserably failed to achieve -atheism-, though you aggressively say the opposite.
Hilariously wrong. If every single member left the RCC yet remained theist, I would not care at all.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I'll say it once more: many people with religious interests are more attracted by sin than by virtue. That includes those religious freaks self-identified as "atheists", what they're really not. Their position is a) a religious one, and b) deeply immoral. Only paedophilia is worse, that's why, I think, they're so fixated in it. It probably makes them feel well about themselves and continue to be blind to what they are really doing here, and over there.
Wow. Atheism is second only to paedophilia on your morality scale. That isn't a chip on your shoulder, it's a whole tree. Atheism is a privative. It is a lack of belief in any god. All atheists are self-identified, as are all christians, muslims, jews, hindus etc. You have now claimed, therefore, that all atheists are both religious and immoral, a rather sweeping generalisation, no? How about you tell me what I am really doing and how you know that. And just what exactly do you mean by "over there"?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 03:51 AM   #260
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,844
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
What's that? An even twister version of "if you're not with me, you're against me"?

I think you, like others, concentrate in the crimes as it's unlawful to despise Catholics (and any other Christian denomination) because they are Catholics. That's the way bigotry and hate work today: you cannot say a negroe is lumpen or subhuman, but you can become enamoured of a tree downtown and use all the hate speech you want to smear -and eventually physically attack- anyone who is in favour of felling it.

Many of you are only saying "see this crimes ... you have to stop being Catholic and become an atheist". Well, if they did they would become something many of you have miserably failed to achieve -atheism-, though you aggressively say the opposite.

I'll say it once more: many people with religious interests are more attracted by sin than by virtue. That includes those religious freaks self-identified as "atheists", what they're really not. Their position is a) a religious one, and b) deeply immoral. Only paedophilia is worse, that's why, I think, they're so fixated in it. It probably makes them feel well about themselves and continue to be blind to what they are really doing here, and over there.

Alec - you said the same things to me in a previous thread here. Where I declined to get any further involved in any discussions with you, because I think it's clear that although your posts are extremely muddled and incoherent, you are trying to claim that the sort of criticism which Abaddon (and many others) raised about senior figures in the Christian Church, that is in your belief, due to the critics of religion being somehow psychologically repressed ex theists.

Firstly, that appears to be just a pet theory dreamed up in your own mind, and where you kept levelling that same accusation at me, but where in fact I have never been religious in any way at all, and I did not grow up in a religious family/home/environment.

But it's a completely puerile & silly argument anyway. Because the fact is that there have been too many cases of preachers at all levels in various branches of the Christian church, who have been exposed (and legally charged) on issues of paedophilia and other child abuse. Not to mention also the sort of issues that I raised in the previous thread, e.g. church denials of evolution and their instance that God really created humans … either directly as for example in the Old Testament or indirectly by knowingly starting evolution in the first place … and the issue with that (as I explained extensively to you in the other thread) is only to point out that the church is being deliberately anti-educational and anti-science when it encourages it's worshippers (and particularly young children) to believe that science is wrong and that God is truly the intelligent deliberate force behind all such things.

As explained to you before, though you took serious exception to it, the problem with that sort of religious teaching (which is also the same teaching in Islam, just to include the other very big branch of religion worldwide today), is that it leads in the end to religious believers making increasingly violent defence of their religious beliefs as they come into ever increasing conflict with what we have leaned from science …. where science has shown very clearly that such religious beliefs are completely wrong. And that makes religion, ultimately, dangerous (in fact, very dangerous indeed).

It's not a matter of wanting to attack or criticise religion for no reason at all. It's a matter of honesty in pointing out that organised religions such as Christianity and Islam are sources of very serious dangers, and that's really not arguable (because it's confirmed by absolutely mountains of evidence).
IanS is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 02:53 PM   #261
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Thanks abaddon and IanS your responses to aleCcowaN's bewildering posts are better than I could have managed.

From what I read there seems to be considerable disquiet among the faithful in the RCC in Australia today.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-...02-gjzxdm.html


Quote:
According to a survey of the Catholic religious institutes in Australia, the median age of religious personnel in Australia was 73 years old, while the average age of congregants crept up from 55 years in 2006 to 57 years in 2011.
The report showed a 67 per cent drop in the numbers of Catholic nuns, brothers and priests (not including diocesan priests) in Australia between 1966 and 2009.
Look at those figures ..... 73 year old median age of religious personal!

Just to show I do not only read stuff that re-inforces my own view.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...472cf1613990dd

A seriously biased piece of work by one Greg Craven.

Quote:
Adoring media outlets have egged it on, with royal commissioner Peter McClellan and counsel assisting Gail Furness seen more as folk her*oes than public servants whose performance is to be scrutinised. Any attempt to express or explain a church position is stigmatised as an assault on victims, an abuse of process and a moral contempt of the commission. In this climate, the only case is for the prosecution. The subject matter of discussion is so awful and the media treatment so partisan and sensational that counterargument is complicity. Dis*aster for the “traditional” church, with its bishops and celibate clergy, is eagerly anticipated by a surpris*ingly wide range of enthusiasts.

The commissioner and counsel being seen as folk hero's no less with the churches position being stigmatised!

Perhaps aleCcowaN will find grist for his arguments in this article. I find it nausea inducing.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 03:16 PM   #262
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,143
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks abaddon and IanS your responses to aleCcowaN's bewildering posts are better than I could have managed.

From what I read there seems to be considerable disquiet among the faithful in the RCC in Australia today.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-...02-gjzxdm.html




Look at those figures ..... 73 year old median age of religious personal!

Just to show I do not only read stuff that re-inforces my own view.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...472cf1613990dd

A seriously biased piece of work by one Greg Craven.




The commissioner and counsel being seen as folk hero's no less with the churches position being stigmatised!

Perhaps aleCcowaN will find grist for his arguments in this article. I find it nausea inducing.
Your Australian quote is behind a paywall.

The average age of a Catholic has gone up 2 years to 57 years in the last 5 years. That must mean that hardly any of the Catholics who are dying from old age are being replaced by babies. That trend has been going on for a long time as the average age of an Australian is only 38*. It will not be long before there will be hardly any Catholics left in Australia! See also what I said above about the decline of Catholics. This is evidence that I am not too far out. And any left would not have anyone to preach to them.





*Ref: http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 03:28 PM   #263
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks abaddon and IanS your responses to aleCcowaN's bewildering posts are better than I could have managed.
You are welcome.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
From what I read there seems to be considerable disquiet among the faithful in the RCC in Australia today.
Mistake. The RCC are flat out loons. The victims are right out having nothing to do with it, the RCC are doing their best to dodge that.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Turns out frankie is not the white knight people thought he was. Aids in Africa, good enough for them negroes.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Look at those figures ..... 73 year old median age of religious personal!
Why yes, if one accepts that they are remotely relevant.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just to show I do not only read stuff that re-inforces my own view.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...472cf1613990dd

A seriously biased piece of work by one Greg Craven.
Paywalled. I could work that, but I lack motivation.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The commissioner and counsel being seen as folk hero's no less with the churches position being stigmatised!
There are a bucket of god botherers, sure.. You, me and any rational person will call that out. The MA means that it is verbotten.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Perhaps aleCcowaN will find grist for his arguments in this article. I find it nausea inducing.
Not going there. Said member is actually quite the reasonable guy. As a poster, I quite like him. That said, sometimes I cannot figure out why he presents the most odd opinions out of left field.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 03:48 PM   #264
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Your Australian quote is behind a paywall.

The average age of a Catholic has gone up 2 years to 57 years in the last 5 years. That must mean that hardly any of the Catholics who are dying from old age are being replaced by babies. That trend has been going on for a long time as the average age of an Australian is only 38*. It will not be long before there will be hardly any Catholics left in Australia! See also what I said above about the decline of Catholics. This is evidence that I am not too far out. And any left would not have anyone to preach to them.





*Ref: http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument

Sorry about the paywall thing. It opened up for me no problem even though I have no account.

The RCC are recruiting priests in Africa and the ramifications of this will be interesting.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 06:01 PM   #265
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,372
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Sorry about the paywall thing. It opened up for me no problem even though I have no account.
I believe The Australian makes articles free to read for a certain time (24 hours, I think but I could be wrong because I won't permit that awful rag to sully my browser cache), then slams the paywall down on them once that time has expired. You probably caught it during the free period, and can still access it because of a cookie.

Anyway, I'd like to see justification for the claim that Catholic priests can "do no wrong". I'm pretty sure no-one has ever claimed that priests are infallible. Let's not burn straw priests, yeah?
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2017, 10:20 PM   #266
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Sorry about the paywall thing. It opened up for me no problem even though I have no account.

The RCC are recruiting priests in Africa and the ramifications of this will be interesting.
Yeah, that's all kind of strange. Couple of years ago a priest in my neighbourhood popped his clogs. He was odd to say the least, but mostly harmless. He lived in a very fine house on his lonesome.

Post mortem, a replacement priest from Nigeria arrived. Did he take up residence in that house? Nope. The poor SOB was left homeless with no more than the shirt on his back while the now empty four bed home lay idle. I really felt sorry for the guy. To the extent that I even helped him get a flat sorted eventually. Genuinely nice bloke, but ace of spades black. The prejudice he had to bear was beyond belief.

So why couldn't the RCC simply let the guy move into that 4 bed house? Simple. It belonged to the nuns and they couldn't have a "blick" taking up occupancy.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 02:14 PM   #267
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I believe The Australian makes articles free to read for a certain time (24 hours, I think but I could be wrong because I won't permit that awful rag to sully my browser cache), then slams the paywall down on them once that time has expired. You probably caught it during the free period, and can still access it because of a cookie.

Anyway, I'd like to see justification for the claim that Catholic priests can "do no wrong". I'm pretty sure no-one has ever claimed that priests are infallible. Let's not burn straw priests, yeah?

These were the words of GT/CS not mine, although my thesis is the Catholic clergy are held in a far higher regard, than the clergy of other Christian colours. Catholics see the priest as the one in the middle between themselves and God. Catholics seem shy about going the direct route to God, so they have the Virgin Mary and other saints as go betweens, and the priest of course who hears confessions and gives absolution on God's behalf. Abaddon, an ex Catholic, has endorsed this notion in a previous post.

Now, further to this, my thesis is the Catholic Church is most vulnerable when the character of the clergy is brought into question. Other Christian leaders can
err but the churches they represent go on virtually unscathed, because these leaders are just preachers not conduits to God. Most other Christians go the direct route when praying to God after all.

Perhaps this is why the Catholic Church is bleeding so profusely now.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 02:27 PM   #268
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yeah, that's all kind of strange. Couple of years ago a priest in my neighbourhood popped his clogs. He was odd to say the least, but mostly harmless. He lived in a very fine house on his lonesome.

Post mortem, a replacement priest from Nigeria arrived. Did he take up residence in that house? Nope. The poor SOB was left homeless with no more than the shirt on his back while the now empty four bed home lay idle. I really felt sorry for the guy. To the extent that I even helped him get a flat sorted eventually. Genuinely nice bloke, but ace of spades black. The prejudice he had to bear was beyond belief.

So why couldn't the RCC simply let the guy move into that 4 bed house? Simple. It belonged to the nuns and they couldn't have a "blick" taking up occupancy.

The ugly face of racial prejudice rears its head.

Yes I imagine white Catholics would have trouble with a black man in the pulpit. Of course there is biblical justification for racial prejudice that has been used by some in South Africa and the Southern States of the USA I believe.

May not hold much sway with Catholics however as they tend not to be Bible readers in general.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 07:19 PM   #269
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,158
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Of course there is biblical justification for racial prejudice that has been used by some in South Africa and the Southern States of the USA I believe.
Sadly, it's hardly restricted to the southern states.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 01:20 AM   #270
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,007
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The ugly face of racial prejudice rears its head.

Yes I imagine white Catholics would have trouble with a black man in the pulpit. Of course there is biblical justification for racial prejudice that has been used by some in South Africa and the Southern States of the USA I believe.

May not hold much sway with Catholics however as they tend not to be Bible readers in general.
Shame of it is that he was a really nice guy. As an atheist, this put me in the position of defending a catholic ordained priest against fellow catholics.

I really felt sorry for the guy. One crank stated that she could not make confession to a black dude, the priest must be white and wow.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 05:59 AM   #271
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,158
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Shame of it is that he was a really nice guy. As an atheist, this put me in the position of defending a catholic ordained priest against fellow catholics.

I really felt sorry for the guy. One crank stated that she could not make confession to a black dude, the priest must be white and wow.
"To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem." - Douglas Adams
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 08:05 AM   #272
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,354
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
That may be near the truth in the Land of the Donald. But it isn't what the Church teaches:



It's the twisted dirty interpretation of Usian minds (catholics, protestants and anti-theists) that of considering "as a means" as including therapeutic "abortion", which is not abortion for the Church by definition as the pregnancy was not possible and the lost of the foetus is not other than the unwanted consequence of a necessary medical procedure.
And that procedure can not be an abortion. So you have to do something else that causes an abortion but isn't just an abortion.

How about this statement from Nicaragua?

"The Pastoral Vicar of the Archdiocese of Managua, Msgr. Miguel Mantica, said last week that the Catholic Church does not support or approve of abortion, nor does it approve of so-called "therapeutic" abortion".

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne..._in_nicaragua/

Or the Vatican

"Correcting confusion generated by the recent statement of a Vatican official, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) issued a statement today confirming that so called “therapeutic” abortion “has not been and can never be” accepted as Catholic teaching.


The document is a response, it says, to the “manipulation and instrumentalization” of an article by Bishop Rino Fisichella published in L’Osservatore Romano on March 15, 2009 about the case of an abortion procured for a 9 year-old Brazilian girl who had been impregnated by her stepfather."

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...azil_incident/

So their official stance is let the little 9 year old slut burst. The step father is all good though, after all the catholic church knows how seductive 9 year olds are.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 02:26 PM   #273
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
There doesn't seem to be much flexibility in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Quote:
2272: Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

It would seem those predominantly Catholic countries that lock women up, who are suspected of having had an abortion, are on solid ground as far as the church is concerned.

For those not familiar with the term "latae sententiae" is a Latin phrase, meaning "sentence (already) passed", used in the canon law of the Catholic Church. A latae sententiae penalty is one that follows ipso facto or automatically, by force of the law itself, when a law is contravened. Can even the pope overturn this I wonder?
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.

Last edited by Thor 2; 21st August 2017 at 02:31 PM.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 02:54 PM   #274
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,372
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It would seem those predominantly Catholic countries that lock women up, who are suspected of having had an abortion, are on solid ground as far as the church is concerned.
Which countries are those?
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!

Last edited by arthwollipot; 21st August 2017 at 02:57 PM.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 03:02 PM   #275
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Which countries are those?
El-Salvador is one that comes immediately to mind.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/10/am...law/index.html
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 03:15 PM   #276
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,372
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
El-Salvador is one that comes immediately to mind.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/10/am...law/index.html
Any others?

I'm just wondering if you're making a sweeping generalisation based on a minority, that's all. You have a habit I've observed of taking an example of something bad that is only occasionally associated with the church and arguing as though that represents the church as a whole. As far as I know, most predominantly Catholic countries do not imprison women for seeking an abortion, despite what you have quoted from the Catechism - which is not the law of any country except perhaps for one.

Of course, I could be wrong about that. If you can demonstrate that a representative majority of predominantly Catholic countries do actually have this in their legal code, I will withdraw.
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 03:45 PM   #277
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Any others?

I'm just wondering if you're making a sweeping generalisation based on a minority, that's all. You have a habit I've observed of taking an example of something bad that is only occasionally associated with the church and arguing as though that represents the church as a whole. As far as I know, most predominantly Catholic countries do not imprison women for seeking an abortion, despite what you have quoted from the Catechism - which is not the law of any country except perhaps for one.

Of course, I could be wrong about that. If you can demonstrate that a representative majority of predominantly Catholic countries do actually have this in their legal code, I will withdraw.
Here are some others and I would thank you not to make comments about my habits.

Quote:
Six countries — El Salvador, Malta, the Vatican, Chile, the Dominican Republic, and Nicaragua — still refuse abortions to women under any circumstances, even if it's to save her life. It means that under many circumstances, such as rape, incest, or if the fetus has a severe abnormality, women still must bring a pregnancy to term.
Source:

http://www.businessinsider.com/count...s-2016-12?IR=T

An alarming figure:

Quote:
Developing countries, which have the strictest laws around ending a pregnancy, have the highest unsafe abortion rates. It is estimated that around the world, 78,000 deaths result from unsafe abortions every year. These are the countries with the strictest abortion laws around the globe.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 03:58 PM   #278
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,372
El Salvador: 6,377,195
Malta: 445,426
The Vatican: 1,000
The Dominican Republic: 10,783,574
Nicaragua: 6,167,237

Total population: 23,774,432.
Total number of Catholics in the world: 1,265,000,000 (estimated)

The countries you cite make up approximately 0.018% of Catholics in the world. You can check my maths if you like.

Yet you're using this 0.018% as though it is representative of Catholicism as a whole. Do you really think that's fair?
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 04:27 PM   #279
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,035
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
El Salvador: 6,377,195
Malta: 445,426
The Vatican: 1,000
The Dominican Republic: 10,783,574
Nicaragua: 6,167,237

Total population: 23,774,432.
Total number of Catholics in the world: 1,265,000,000 (estimated)

The countries you cite make up approximately 0.018% of Catholics in the world. You can check my maths if you like.

Yet you're using this 0.018% as though it is representative of Catholicism as a whole. Do you really think that's fair?

Now you are the one who seems to be in a habit of implying others are saying something they are not. I said:

Quote:
It would seem those predominantly Catholic countries that lock women up, who are suspected of having had an abortion, are on solid ground as far as the church is concerned.
That is all.

The percentage from your figures by the way is 1.88%.

In case maths is not your strong point you divide 23,774,432 by 1,265,000,000 and then multiply by 100 to obtain a percentage. Glad I could be of help here.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2017, 11:33 PM   #280
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,143
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
El Salvador: 6,377,195
Malta: 445,426
The Vatican: 1,000
The Dominican Republic: 10,783,574
Nicaragua: 6,167,237

Total population: 23,774,432.
Total number of Catholics in the world: 1,265,000,000 (estimated)

The countries you cite make up approximately 0.018% of Catholics in the world. You can check my maths if you like.

Yet you're using this 0.018%1.8% as though it is representative of Catholicism as a whole. Do you really think that's fair?
Fixed your quote as per Thor2 above. Anyone can make a stupid mistake like that.

You must also remember that abortion is still illegal under certain conditions in Australia. So it probably adds to the stress of having an abortion. And in the past it was even more restricted than now.

I would suggest that changes to the law are a result of changes in religious beliefs.


Ref: https://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/...lawandpractice
http://theconversation.com/still-kee...tion-law-11732

Last edited by rjh01; 21st August 2017 at 11:34 PM.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.