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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 22nd August 2017, 05:44 AM   #281
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
El Salvador: 6,377,195
Malta: 445,426
The Vatican: 1,000
The Dominican Republic: 10,783,574
Nicaragua: 6,167,237

Total population: 23,774,432.
Total number of Catholics in the world: 1,265,000,000 (estimated)

The countries you cite make up approximately 0.018% of Catholics in the world. You can check my maths if you like.

Yet you're using this 0.018% as though it is representative of Catholicism as a whole. Do you really think that's fair?
It is fair at representing the church's views. They are happy to let women die rather than give them a life saving abortion. See the condemnation to eternal torture of a nun who thought saving a woman's life was allowable.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126985072

Here is how policy harms patient care in catholic hospitals

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353977

Here is a priest explaining that the only moral option is to do the most damage to a womans reproductive system

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/...egnancies.html
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Old 22nd August 2017, 06:35 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
From that third link:

In this situation, the intention of the surgeon is directed towards the good effect (removing the damaged tissue to save the mother's life) while only tolerating the bad effect (death of the ectopic child). Importantly, the surgeon is choosing to act on the tube (a part of the mother's body) rather than directly on the child. Additionally, the child's death is not the means via which the cure occurs. If a large tumor, instead of a baby, were present in the tube, the same curative procedure would be employed. It is tubal removal, not the subsequent death of the baby, that is curative for the mother's condition.

Hilarious watching the hoops of rationalization these guys go through.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 07:04 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
From that third link:

In this situation, the intention of the surgeon is directed towards the good effect (removing the damaged tissue to save the mother's life) while only tolerating the bad effect (death of the ectopic child). Importantly, the surgeon is choosing to act on the tube (a part of the mother's body) rather than directly on the child. Additionally, the child's death is not the means via which the cure occurs. If a large tumor, instead of a baby, were present in the tube, the same curative procedure would be employed. It is tubal removal, not the subsequent death of the baby, that is curative for the mother's condition.

Hilarious watching the hoops of rationalization these guys go through.
That is basic catholic medical doctrine. You can not abort the fetus no matter what. So in other situations you get a hysterectomy rather than an abortion to save your life.

It is almost as if religion should not be dictating medical care, but that is right out when 14.5% of hospitals are catholic and in some areas you only have them as your only option. So be careful where you are living while female.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 07:22 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Another indicator of the rapid decline of the RCC is the diminishing number of Catholic Nuns in the West today. I can remember as a child seeing nuns in public was a common sight. Can't recall seeing one for years now.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...h-the-vatican/

There would seem to be some friction between the Vatican and the body representing the nuns also:



Radical feminists doning habits now and not banging the "no abortion" drum loud enough.

The average age of nuns is increasing at almost one year per year. I have a relative who is a nun, and there have been some years the past couple of decades where they have had 0 novitiates. They have even taken to advertising on billboards.

When they retire to the mother house, they turn their cars into the car pool, which is growing quickly as there is nobody else out there who needs one. They have stopped buying new cars and one just gets a new-ish one from the pool when theirs is old.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 08:23 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is basic catholic medical doctrine. You can not abort the fetus no matter what. So in other situations you get a hysterectomy rather than an abortion to save your life.....
Yet they ARE aborting the fetus. Somehow they think if they take surrounding tissue with it, that somehow hides it?

I'm not even judging their morals, it is the bizarre logic I can't wrap my head around.

I remember having a massive debate on another side with a lady who thought they rhythm method was ok but condoms were not.

"Honey, lets not have sex tonight because science tells us this time in your cycle you are not likely to get pregnant."
or
"Honey lets have sex tonight because science tells us this time in your cycle you are not likely to get pregnant."

is ok, but


"Honey, lets wear a condom tonight because I don't want you to get pregnant"


The intent is exactly the same. The intent is to have sex without pregnancy.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 08:42 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Yet they ARE aborting the fetus. Somehow they think if they take surrounding tissue with it, that somehow hides it?

I'm not even judging their morals, it is the bizarre logic I can't wrap my head around.

I remember having a massive debate on another side with a lady who thought they rhythm method was ok but condoms were not.

"Honey, lets not have sex tonight because science tells us this time in your cycle you are not likely to get pregnant."
or
"Honey lets have sex tonight because science tells us this time in your cycle you are not likely to get pregnant."

is ok, but


"Honey, lets wear a condom tonight because I don't want you to get pregnant"


The intent is exactly the same. The intent is to have sex without pregnancy.
Because it isn't about intent or effect, it is about gaming the system god set up, to play by the rules in such a way that you are winning with out breaking the arbitrary effects.

This is pretty common in many religions. Like how they declared various mammals fish so they could be eaten on fridays.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:11 PM   #287
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God can bend space and time so you get pregnant even if you aren't ovulating. God can't be expected to overcome a thin piece of rubber. Or chariots of iron. Thems the rules.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 01:27 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I remember having a massive debate on another side with a lady who thought they rhythm method was ok but condoms were not.
And there's the old saw which says those who use the rhythm method are called "parents."

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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:11 PM   #289
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Now here is a question for scholars of Catholicism.

Is there any means by which the Catechism of the Catholic Church can be changed? Can all those guys in the red dresses get together and decide to change some bits to make it more palatable in todays World, or does the Pope have to do one of his Ex cathedra thingees? Can even the Pope do this?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:26 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Now here is a question for scholars of Catholicism.

Is there any means by which the Catechism of the Catholic Church can be changed? Can all those guys in the red dresses get together and decide to change some bits to make it more palatable in todays World, or does the Pope have to do one of his Ex cathedra thingees? Can even the Pope do this?
Technically, the Pope can go all ex-cathedra on his lonesome. For example, any pope could go on a solo run and declare condoms to be mandatory in the battle of the beast with two backs, thus at least halving the AIDS problem in Africa. But that won't happen because...

Practically, a huddle of red dresses make the actual communal decisions which most catholics promptly ignore. The Roman Curia has the actual power. The Pope is a figurehead. Interestingly, the structure of the Curia is directly modelled on the pagan Roman military.

ETA: Oh. I should add that ex-cathedra declarations are rarer than one might imagine. The last one was in 1950. This means that nothing declared by any Pope since Pius XII is infallible. Nothing. Quite the handy get out clause, no? Even the whole infallibilty crap only goes back to 1870.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:48 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is fair at representing the church's views. They are happy to let women die rather than give them a life saving abortion. See the condemnation to eternal torture of a nun who thought saving a woman's life was allowable.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=126985072

..........

This story was posted a couple of pages back, (it was worth a read a second time however ), and The Big Dog jumped in with the following:

Quote:
And now the rest of the story, the women's life was saved and the nun was reinstated to the Catholic Church.

I asked him to give us details of the source of this information about the overturning of the ex communication but nothing was forthcoming.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 03:04 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
And there's the old saw which says those who use the rhythm method are called "parents."
I have heard it called "Vatican Roulette"
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Old 22nd August 2017, 03:16 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post

----

Here is how policy harms patient care in catholic hospitals

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353977

------

What a wonderful source of knowledge these threads can be.

For those, like me, who are ignorant about things like ectopic pregnancies:

http://www.webmd.com/baby/pregnancy-ectopic-pregnancy#1


Quote:
In the United States, ectopic pregnancies are relatively common and associated with significant maternal morbidity and mortality. The Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services (the Directives) govern the provision of care in Catholic-affiliated hospitals and prohibit the provision of abortion in almost all circumstances. Although ectopic pregnancies are not viable, some Catholic ethicists have argued that the Directives preclude physicians at Catholic hospitals from managing tubal pregnancies with methods and procedures that involve "direct" action against the embryo.

Even though ectopic pregnancies are not viable - i.e. the baby cannot be saved. The Catholic Church insists the embryo cannot be removed thus threatening the life of the mother. I checked this out on another couple of sources also and there is no treatment available to save the child.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 03:24 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What a wonderful source of knowledge these threads can be.

For those, like me, who are ignorant about things like ectopic pregnancies:

http://www.webmd.com/baby/pregnancy-ectopic-pregnancy#1





Even though ectopic pregnancies are not viable - i.e. the baby cannot be saved. The Catholic Church insists the embryo cannot be removed thus threatening the life of the mother. I checked this out on another couple of sources also and there is no treatment available to save the child.
But the RCC is happy to kill the woman.

Savita Halappanavar. Needlessly dead.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 06:15 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This story was posted a couple of pages back, (it was worth a read a second time however ), and The Big Dog jumped in with the following:




I asked him to give us details of the source of this information about the overturning of the ex communication but nothing was forthcoming.
According to Wikipedia:
Quote:
As of December 2011, McBride is no longer excommunicated and is in good standing with the Sisters of Mercy according to a statement from St. Joseph's Hospital emailed to the Catholic News Service.[10]
Which may indicate no more than that PR is more important than doctrine, depending on location, of course.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:29 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
According to Wikipedia:

Which may indicate no more than that PR is more important than doctrine, depending on location, of course.

Thanks for that oh pumpkin thrower.

One has to wonder about the decision making within the Catholic Church. This woman, (this good woman), is dealt with most harshly with a latae sententiae, or automatic, excommunication. And then some other shmuck comes along and cancels it out? How is this squared of with the higher authorities?

Good to hear that:

Quote:
In December 2010, Olmsted announced that the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix was severing its affiliation with the hospital, after months of discussion had failed to obtain from the hospital management a promise not to perform abortions in the future. "If we are presented with a situation in which a pregnancy threatens a woman's life, our first priority is to save both patients. If that is not possible, we will always save the life we can save, and that is what we did in this case," said hospital president Linda Hunt. "Morally, ethically, and legally, we simply cannot stand by and let someone die whose life we might be able to save."

A superior moral ethic than that of the Catholic Church prevails.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:44 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for that oh pumpkin thrower.

One has to wonder about the decision making within the Catholic Church. This woman, (this good woman), is dealt with most harshly with a latae sententiae, or automatic, excommunication. And then some other shmuck comes along and cancels it out? How is this squared of with the higher authorities?

Good to hear that:




A superior moral ethic than that of the Catholic Church prevails.
And with the 9 year old girl in Brazil it seems unclear if the mother and doctors are excomunicated or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_B..._abortion_case

It seems to be the churches official position that maybe they are under the idea that anyone involved in an abortion is excommunicated, but not specifically. And such a thing is just a distraction anyway. So apparently being excommunicated and tortured in hell for eternity is not a big deal in the catholic church anymore.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:36 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And with the 9 year old girl in Brazil it seems unclear if the mother and doctors are excomunicated or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_B..._abortion_case

It seems to be the churches official position that maybe they are under the idea that anyone involved in an abortion is excommunicated, but not specifically. And such a thing is just a distraction anyway. So apparently being excommunicated and tortured in hell for eternity is not a big deal in the catholic church anymore.

Well it seems to be open and shut as far as the Catechism of the Catholic Church is concerned - excommunication that is. Mind you the Catholic clergy are showing some fancy footwork of late in dancing around these issues.

I wonder how steadfast the belief is among Catholics (even priests) about this childish nonsense of being tortured in Hell for eternity. I have heard other Christians talk about Hell as just a place were god isn't. If that's so it would suit me fine.
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Old 5th October 2017, 09:58 PM   #299
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Well there has been another hearing in the state versus Cardinal Pell saga.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-0...ations/9021596

In March next year there will be a committal hearing going on for some weeks to determine if a trail will go ahead.

Quote:
The court heard about 50 witnesses will give evidence at Cardinal Pell's committal hearing, which will determine whether there is enough evidence to commit him to stand trial.
My how these things are dragged out. The lawyers rub their hands together in glee.

Interesting about the payment of legal costs.

Quote:
Earlier this year, The Pope granted him leave from his duties as Prefect of the Vatican Secretariat, a very senior role in the papal administration, to return to Australia to fight the charges.
The Catholic Archdiocese of Sydney has previously said it would not pay its former archbishop's legal costs.
But a fund has been set up for Cardinal Pell's supporters to donate money to help fund his legal team.
It is being run by a law firm based in Ivanhoe East in Melbourne's north-east.
The local faithful will be digging deep to help Pell out it seems while the Church turns it's back.

I really do hope he gets a fair trial because anything else will taint the result if he is found guilty.
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Old 5th October 2017, 10:42 PM   #300
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I never understood why a committal hearing needs to call witnesses. Just read all the witnesses statements and only call witnesses if their critical evidence is questionable.
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Old 6th October 2017, 01:58 PM   #301
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Yes we have file-ing hearings, committal hearings, the trial to establish guilt or innocence, and then perhaps another one to examine impact of the crime so an appropriate punishment can be inflicted. The legal guys know how to milk something for all its worth.

Interesting that Pell didn't have to attend any of the hearings to date, but chose to. I wonder about the latter and have to admit to some cynicism. Did he choose to or was he pushed? Is the fact that the church is not footing the bill for the legal costs significant?

Pell could be still living the good life in the Vatican, and if later compelled to come to court for the trial, could have pulled the "to sick to fly" card. That worked before, when commanded to appear before the royal commission.

I think the Vatican is distancing itself as much as it can. If found guilty Pell will be a severe embarrassment. He is arguably the second most senior cleric in the RCC.
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Old 6th October 2017, 07:14 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
<snip>

I think the Vatican is distancing itself as much as it can. If found guilty Pell will be a severe embarrassment. He is arguably the second most senior cleric in the RCC.
I tend to agree with your first sentence I have quoted. However I have a problem. How can an organisation distance itself from the top brass of that organisation? The top brass make certain decisions and the rest of the organisation then make similar ones. If Pell is found guilty then the Catholic church should be in big trouble, as in will it survive?
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Old 6th October 2017, 07:35 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I tend to agree with your first sentence I have quoted. However I have a problem. How can an organisation distance itself from the top brass of that organisation? The top brass make certain decisions and the rest of the organisation then make similar ones. If Pell is found guilty then the Catholic church should be in big trouble, as in will it survive?
Because the allegations have nothing at all to do with his conduct as "top brass"
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Old 7th October 2017, 01:05 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because the allegations have nothing at all to do with his conduct as "top brass"
The result is the same. If it is reported to the RCC that he allows certain conduct (other priests abusing children) and still gets promoted then the RCC endorses priests abusing children. It only gets worse. What procedures existed if reports came in alleging priests abusing children? If the procedures were non existent then the RCC endorses this behaviour.

It does not matter how you look at it. If many priests abuse children and the RCC does nothing about it then it endorses this behaviour. Many of the priests involved are dead but Pell is not. No matter how you look at it, if Pell is guilty then so too is the RCC.
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Old 7th October 2017, 02:21 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The result is the same. If it is reported to the RCC that he allows certain conduct (other priests abusing children) and still gets promoted then the RCC endorses priests abusing children. It only gets worse. What procedures existed if reports came in alleging priests abusing children? If the procedures were non existent then the RCC endorses this behaviour.

It does not matter how you look at it. If many priests abuse children and the RCC does nothing about it then it endorses this behaviour. Many of the priests involved are dead but Pell is not. No matter how you look at it, if Pell is guilty then so too is the RCC.

Exactly and in line with the findings and recommendations of the Royal Commission in Australia.

Quote:
In the research report Sentencing for child sexual abuse in institutional contexts (Sentencing Research), the researchers suggest that organisations and not merely the individuals in them should be held criminally responsible for the creation, management and response to risk when it has materialised in harm to a child. The researchers provide a detailed discussion of institutional agencies, including why organisational responsibility for child sexual abuse might be appropriate and how organisational agencies might be framed. We outline the possible institutional agencies they discuss as follows:

- being negligently responsible for the commission of child sexual abuse
- negligently failing to remove a risk of child sexual assault
- reactive organisational fault
- institutional child sexual abuse.

Time and again the Catholic Church, (and Pell was the centre of attention for much of it), was found wanting in its response when evidence of child abuse was stark.
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Old 7th October 2017, 02:26 PM   #306
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Surprising as it may seem, after so many exposures of child sex abuse within the RCC, some are saying the worst is yet to come.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-1...-world/8900616

Quote:
The worst of the Catholic sexual abuse scandal may be over in Australia, but the crisis is likely to hit the church in Asia, Africa and parts of Europe within a decade, a report has warned.

The RMIT study, Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church, has for the first time compiled the findings of 26 royal commissions, police investigations, judicial probes, government inquiries, church studies, and academic research from around the world since 1985.

It warns the gravest potential for future abuse of children and teenagers lies in the estimated 9,600 orphanages the church still runs, including 2,600 in India and 1,600 in Italy
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Old 7th October 2017, 04:44 PM   #307
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He's in a position of authority. He needs to hold his behaviour to a very high standard, and he has failed to do that. The fact that he wasn't abusing children "in his capacity as a priest" (what does that even mean?) is irrelevant.
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Old 7th October 2017, 05:48 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Surprising as it may seem, after so many exposures of child sex abuse within the RCC, some are saying the worst is yet to come.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-1...-world/8900616

.
It is an issue in every country the RCC has a presence in.
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Old 7th October 2017, 05:49 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The result is the same. If it is reported to the RCC that he allows certain conduct (other priests abusing children) and still gets promoted then the RCC endorses priests abusing children. It only gets worse. What procedures existed if reports came in alleging priests abusing children? If the procedures were non existent then the RCC endorses this behaviour.

It does not matter how you look at it. If many priests abuse children and the RCC does nothing about it then it endorses this behaviour. Many of the priests involved are dead but Pell is not. No matter how you look at it, if Pell is guilty then so too is the RCC.
False. Cool moving the goalposts tho.
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Old 7th October 2017, 05:57 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
False. Cool moving the goalposts tho.

Would be nice if you would tell us were rjh01 is in error.
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Old 7th October 2017, 06:05 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Would be nice if you would tell us were rjh01 is in error.
say, it is nice that you agree that he was moving goalposts.

rjh01 is in error in that his claims were utterly unsupported by evidence.
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Old 7th October 2017, 07:22 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
say, it is nice that you agree that he was moving goalposts.

rjh01 is in error in that his claims were utterly unsupported by evidence.
I rather suspect we'll be seeing lots of evidence come out over the next couple of years.
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Old 7th October 2017, 07:28 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I rather suspect we'll be seeing lots of evidence come out over the next couple of years.
Not to support his claim.
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:08 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I rather suspect we'll be seeing lots of evidence come out over the next couple of years.

There is a mountain of evidence already But just like Abraham Lincoln said:

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

It's that second group that are the worry. Clutching their rosaries and chanting their Hail Marys, they will still be lining up for their wafers, regardless of the size of the mountain - of evidence that is.

Mind you the size of that group is diminishing - well in the West anyway.
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Old 7th October 2017, 11:36 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not to support his claim.
And you know this how?
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Old 8th October 2017, 07:08 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And you know this how?
"curious" that you did not ask him how he knew the basis for his claim.

I know this because of the timing of the nature of the allegations, of course.
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:18 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"curious" that you did not ask him how he knew the basis for his claim.

I know this because of the timing of the nature of the allegations, of course.
Please elaborate on the "of course" part.
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Old 8th October 2017, 01:47 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not to support his claim.

Once again your dogged persistence in not answering questions is getting tedious. rjh01 said:

Quote:
It does not matter how you look at it. If many priests abuse children and the RCC does nothing about it then it endorses this behaviour. Many of the priests involved are dead but Pell is not. No matter how you look at it, if Pell is guilty then so too is the RCC.

Is the highlighted the "claim" you are on about?
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Old 8th October 2017, 02:37 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Please elaborate on the "of course" part.
"Of course" as in so obvious that further explanation is unnecessary.

Of course you noticed that the claims in question are alleged to have occurred long before Pell was appointed to his senior position.

I do think it is ironic that people question me but not the person who claims the whole Catholic Church might not survive.
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Old 8th October 2017, 04:15 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"Of course" as in so obvious that further explanation is unnecessary.

Of course you noticed that the claims in question are alleged to have occurred long before Pell was appointed to his senior position.

I do think it is ironic that people question me but not the person who claims the whole Catholic Church might not survive.

Typical The Big Dog response. No explanation necessary because, well because it is obvious.

Certainly the offences Pell is accused of happened well before he attained the elevated status he has today. If he is found guilty it is an extreme example of what rjh01 is saying. He was promoted thru the ranks at an astronomical rate. That the ones responsible for his rise to prominence had no knowledge of the stain in his past is difficult to swallow. Time and again evidence was given before the Royal Commission that was damning. So many of the Catholic Clergy clearly knew about the abuse by others and yet the response was to cover up and move priests to different locations so they could abuse again.

On another note, as mentioned earlier in the thread, the clergy of the Catholic Church have a special status when compared to most other Christian denominations. That the Pope is ordained by God himself, is the common belief of the faithful. This is the One True Church after all, built on the rock of Peter. So the Pope, using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others, who in turn promote those below them. An uninterrupted chain so if mistakes are made the authenticity of the divineness must be in question.

This thread is not about if the RCC will survive. We can say with some confidence that it will not, given the number of religions that have not survived in the past. The thread is about the dramatic plummet the church seems to be in at the moment.
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