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Tags church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 8th October 2017, 04:46 PM   #321
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Typical The Big Dog response. No explanation necessary because, well because it is obvious.

Certainly the offences Pell is accused of happened well before he attained the elevated status he has today. If he is found guilty it is an extreme example of what rjh01 is saying. He was promoted thru the ranks at an astronomical rate. That the ones responsible for his rise to prominence had no knowledge of the stain in his past is difficult to swallow. Time and again evidence was given before the Royal Commission that was damning. So many of the Catholic Clergy clearly knew about the abuse by others and yet the response was to cover up and move priests to different locations so they could abuse again.

On another note, as mentioned earlier in the thread, the clergy of the Catholic Church have a special status when compared to most other Christian denominations. That the Pope is ordained by God himself, is the common belief of the faithful. This is the One True Church after all, built on the rock of Peter. So the Pope, using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others, who in turn promote those below them. An uninterrupted chain so if mistakes are made the authenticity of the divineness must be in question.

This thread is not about if the RCC will survive. We can say with some confidence that it will not, given the number of religions that have not survived in the past. The thread is about the dramatic plummet the church seems to be in at the moment.
Anyone notice that indeed no explanation was necessary because in the very next sentence it was made absolutely clear that he knew what I was explaining.

And then, something which we should all enjoy, rather than showing that upper level members of the clergy knew, which was of course what was the original claim to be proven, we get a "it is difficult to swallow" can you smell what the hypocrisy is cooking!

The "divinely inspired" claims are sheer nonsense. Typical gross misrepresentations of Catholic doctrine. Sad
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Old 8th October 2017, 05:57 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
<respectful snip>
Certainly the offences Pell is accused of happened well before he attained the elevated status he has today. If he is found guilty it is an extreme example of what rjh01 is saying. He was promoted thru the ranks at an astronomical rate. That the ones responsible for his rise to prominence had no knowledge of the stain in his past is difficult to swallow. Time and again evidence was given before the Royal Commission that was damning. So many of the Catholic Clergy clearly knew about the abuse by others and yet the response was to cover up and move priests to different locations so they could abuse again.
<respectful snip>
We need to look at the timelines before we can accuse Pell of participating in the cover-ups.
  • He was a parish priest from 1966 to 1987
  • He was a bishop from 1987 to 1996
  • He was archbishop from 1987 to 2004
  • He was appointed cardinal in 2003
A very salient point is the cover-ups occurred before Pell was appointed archbishop in 1987—it was his predecessor who did them. Two months after his appointment as archbishop, Pell instituted the Melbourne Protocol, which encouraged victims to come forward.However, people implementing the protocol have been characterized as lacking compassion.

I don't know if there's any evidence Pell himself moved bad priests around his diocese when he was bishop, or if in the decade he was a bishop he even had to deal with any accusations of the priests that were under his watch.

There have been accusations against Pell himself, which he strongly denies. Because they're only accusations, as skeptics we should we not wait for evidence before declaring him guilty?
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Old 8th October 2017, 06:45 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
We need to look at the timelines before we can accuse Pell of participating in the cover-ups.
  • He was a parish priest from 1966 to 1987
  • He was a bishop from 1987 to 1996
  • He was archbishop from 1987 to 2004
  • He was appointed cardinal in 2003
A very salient point is the cover-ups occurred before Pell was appointed archbishop in 1987—it was his predecessor who did them. Two months after his appointment as archbishop, Pell instituted the Melbourne Protocol, which encouraged victims to come forward.However, people implementing the protocol have been characterized as lacking compassion.

I don't know if there's any evidence Pell himself moved bad priests around his diocese when he was bishop, or if in the decade he was a bishop he even had to deal with any accusations of the priests that were under his watch.

There have been accusations against Pell himself, which he strongly denies. Because they're only accusations, as skeptics we should we not wait for evidence before declaring him guilty?

Yes some good points and he may not have directly been involved in moving priests and other cover up strategies, but the evidence from his own mouth suggest he knew what was going on and wasn't interested.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-0...timony/7216742


Quote:
This was the day Cardinal Pell said the line that will potentially be remembered most.

Here's the line of questioning:

A: "It's a sad story and it wasn't of much interest to me."
Q: "What wasn't of much interest to you, Cardinal?"
A: The suffering of course was real and I very much regret that, but I had no reason to turn my mind to the extent of the evils that Ridsdale had perpetrated."
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Old 8th October 2017, 07:57 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Anyone notice that indeed no explanation was necessary because in the very next sentence it was made absolutely clear that he knew what I was explaining.

And then, something which we should all enjoy, rather than showing that upper level members of the clergy knew, which was of course what was the original claim to be proven, we get a "it is difficult to swallow" can you smell what the hypocrisy is cooking!

The "divinely inspired" claims are sheer nonsense. Typical gross misrepresentations of Catholic doctrine. Sad

Have you looked at any of the evidence given by Catholic clergy at the many enquiries that have taken place so far.

There are admissions of lack of appropriate action, (i.e. guilt), by many and acknowledgement that the primary motivation was to protect the church. If you missed all this you just haven't been paying attention, or perhaps you just don't want to know.

So the divinely inspired thing doesn't gel with you then? Strange, I would have thought as a Catholic you would have been right on board with the ordained by God idea. You have posted that your church is "The One True Church" before. You know ... "Thou art Peter and upon this rock ............" and all that stuff speaks of the credentials of your church.
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Old 8th October 2017, 11:40 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Typical The Big Dog response. No explanation necessary because, well because it is obvious.

Certainly the offences Pell is accused of happened well before he attained the elevated status he has today. If he is found guilty it is an extreme example of what rjh01 is saying. He was promoted thru the ranks at an astronomical rate. That the ones responsible for his rise to prominence had no knowledge of the stain in his past is difficult to swallow. Time and again evidence was given before the Royal Commission that was damning. So many of the Catholic Clergy clearly knew about the abuse by others and yet the response was to cover up and move priests to different locations so they could abuse again.

On another note, as mentioned earlier in the thread, the clergy of the Catholic Church have a special status when compared to most other Christian denominations. That the Pope is ordained by God himself, is the common belief of the faithful. This is the One True Church after all, built on the rock of Peter. So the Pope, using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others, who in turn promote those below them. An uninterrupted chain so if mistakes are made the authenticity of the divineness must be in question.

This thread is not about if the RCC will survive. We can say with some confidence that it will not, given the number of religions that have not survived in the past. The thread is about the dramatic plummet the church seems to be in at the moment.
Very good post. We will have to see what will happen to the RCC. And to Pell. Watch out for some new details at the trial. And lots of mud on all sides.
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Old 9th October 2017, 07:37 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Have you looked at any of the evidence given by Catholic clergy at the many enquiries that have taken place so far.

There are admissions of lack of appropriate action, (i.e. guilt), by many and acknowledgement that the primary motivation was to protect the church. If you missed all this you just haven't been paying attention, or perhaps you just don't want to know.

So the divinely inspired thing doesn't gel with you then? Strange, I would have thought as a Catholic you would have been right on board with the ordained by God idea. You have posted that your church is "The One True Church" before. You know ... "Thou art Peter and upon this rock ............" and all that stuff speaks of the credentials of your church.
Look at them goal posts move!

Yeah, the assertion that all things the Church or its leadership does is "divinely inspired" does not "gel."

Odd that anti-Catholics are always going on about what they think Catholic Doctrine is.
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Old 9th October 2017, 01:54 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Look at them goal posts move!

Yeah, the assertion that all things the Church or its leadership does is "divinely inspired" does not "gel."

Odd that anti-Catholics are always going on about what they think Catholic Doctrine is.

All this talk about goalposts?

Straight from Wiki:

Quote:
Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."

"The Pope is preserved from error" ....... So you don't go along with this then The Big Dog? How so if you are a catholic?

If the Pope promotes Pell, who is then found to be a rather unsavoury character, how is this not an illustration of error making by the Pope.

I know, I know, as far as the allegations of his direct child abuse are not proven, the evidence of his lack of action and empathy for the abused is well established. Clearly Pell's primary concern was protecting the good name of the church.

The subject of "Catholic Doctrine" is not a secret so even an anti-Catholic, as you would describe me, can get to see it all. Incidentally I am not anti-Catholic but most certainly am anti-catholicism. I think the Catholic people are to be treated kindly and guided out of the malady they were infected with.
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Old 9th October 2017, 02:24 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
All this talk about goalposts?

Straight from Wiki:

"The Pope is preserved from error" ....... .
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
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Old 9th October 2017, 02:45 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
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Old 9th October 2017, 05:13 PM   #330
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The Big Dog, instead of lamenting that a poster quoted Wikipedia, are you able to show that the quote is in error? Sources to Roman Catholic Church documents would be useful.
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Old 9th October 2017, 10:27 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
The Big Dog, instead of lamenting that a poster quoted Wikipedia, are you able to show that the quote is in error? Sources to Roman Catholic Church documents would be useful.
Sure all you would have had to do is read the entire Wikipedia article introduction. Just a few more lines in fact. (but not linked of course, because of course it wasn't)

"The use of this power is referred to as speaking ex cathedra.[5] The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith"

Huh. Once. Say, just curious, what did you do to investigate the merits of his claim anyway? I mean you did of course investigate it, right, and determined quite quickly that he was grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, right? Of course you did... but you didn't ask him (the original proponent of the claim and Anti-Catholic... whoops! Anti Catholicism) for, you know, actual support.

Regale us then of tales of research!

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Old 9th October 2017, 11:58 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sure all you would have had to do is read the entire Wikipedia article introduction. Just a few more lines in fact. (but not linked of course, because of course it wasn't)

"The use of this power is referred to as speaking ex cathedra.[5] The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith"

Huh. Once. Say, just curious, what did you do to investigate the merits of his claim anyway? I mean you did of course investigate it, right, and determined quite quickly that he was grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, right? Of course you did... but you didn't ask him (the original proponent of the claim and Anti-Catholic... whoops! Anti Catholicism) for, you know, actual support.

Regale us then of tales of research!


I was just waiting for you to bring in that ex cathedra tosh.

So there we have this Pope who is blessed, (ouch - hate that word), with being preserved from error by God but somehow shuns this ability and blunders on.

The "Oh he was not speaking ex cathedra then" crap has been used for centuries to explain stupid stuff emanating from the Vatican.

We are the "One True Church" we heard them claim "because we have the true pontiff at the helm". However he doesn't use his pontifical god given abilities much ..... in fact only one time since 1870.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:27 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sure all you would have had to do is read the entire Wikipedia article introduction. Just a few more lines in fact. (but not linked of course, because of course it wasn't)

"The use of this power is referred to as speaking ex cathedra.[5] The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith"

Huh. Once. Say, just curious, what did you do to investigate the merits of his claim anyway? I mean you did of course investigate it, right, and determined quite quickly that he was grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, right? Of course you did... but you didn't ask him (the original proponent of the claim and Anti-Catholic... whoops! Anti Catholicism) for, you know, actual support.

Regale us then of tales of research!

In practice the Pope is treated as infallible in any statement he chooses to make. This was shown by the controversy over Paul VI's encyclical Humanae Vitae. Some asked if it was infallible. They were soon called to order
It is on the strength of this assistance, that Pope Paul VI resolved the grave controversy on the use of marriage which had kept the teachers and the faithful in a state of uncertainty. Submission to this pronouncement requires the acknowledgment of an authority which is based on divine assistance. Although a Catholic might, because of his scientific training or for some other reason, find it difficult to grasp the compelling nature of the argumentation, nevertheless his obligation to obey would be no less. For this duty is grounded not on reason, but on the authority of the Roman Pontiff.
ETA Your attempt to inhibit or deter discussion of this issue of Papal Authority by intellectual disparagement and accusations of anti Catholicism is quite shameful and deplorable.

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Old 10th October 2017, 04:38 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sure all you would have had to do is read the entire Wikipedia article introduction. Just a few more lines in fact. (but not linked of course, because of course it wasn't)

"The use of this power is referred to as speaking ex cathedra.[5] The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith"

Huh. Once. Say, just curious, what did you do to investigate the merits of his claim anyway? I mean you did of course investigate it, right, and determined quite quickly that he was grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, right? Of course you did... but you didn't ask him (the original proponent of the claim and Anti-Catholic... whoops! Anti Catholicism) for, you know, actual support.

Regale us then of tales of research!

So how do you account for cases like Brendan Smith, a man whose grotesque abuse was not only covered up by the hierarchy, but actively facilitated by it?
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Old 10th October 2017, 08:00 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Incidentally I am not anti-Catholic but most certainly am anti-catholicism. I think the Catholic people are to be treated kindly and guided out of the malady they were infected with.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
ETA Your attempt to inhibit or deter discussion of this issue of Papal Authority by intellectual disparagement and accusations of anti Catholicism is quite shameful and deplorable.
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Old 10th October 2017, 08:04 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I was just waiting for you to bring in that ex cathedra tosh.

So there we have this Pope who is blessed, (ouch - hate that word), with being preserved from error by God but somehow shuns this ability and blunders on.

The "Oh he was not speaking ex cathedra then" crap has been used for centuries to explain stupid stuff emanating from the Vatican.

We are the "One True Church" we heard them claim "because we have the true pontiff at the helm". However he doesn't use his pontifical god given abilities much ..... in fact only one time since 1870.
The Pope was not acting infalliably but failed to mention that? Huh.

Next error: "promotion" decisions are not eligible for pronouncements ex cathdra. But I am guessing that everyone knew that too.
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:26 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say, just curious, what did you do to investigate the merits of his claim anyway? I mean you did of course investigate it, right, and determined quite quickly that he was grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, right? Of course you did... but you didn't ask him (the original proponent of the claim and Anti-Catholic... whoops! Anti Catholicism) for, you know, actual support.
It was your claim, therefore your burden to supply evidence to support it. You questioned Thor's comment that the Pope is infallible, but instead of supplying evidence for it all you did was attack him for quoting Wikipedia.

It's disingenuous to ask everyone to do your homework for you. A constructive debate involves not only bringing facts to the table, but supplying evidence to back them up. Without evidence, one "fact" is just as good as another.
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:36 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Incidentally I am not anti-Catholic but most certainly am anti-catholicism. I think the Catholic people are to be treated kindly and guided out of the malady they were infected with.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
ETA Your attempt to inhibit or deter discussion of this issue of Papal Authority by intellectual disparagement and accusations of anti Catholicism is quite shameful and deplorable.
CSB
What do Canada Savings Bonds have to do with ex cathedra pronouncements?

Or maybe you were referring to the Cree School Board in Québec? In that case your comment is off-topic, because we're talking about the Roman Catholic Church here and not the education of Canadian indigenous peoples.

My real comment: unless done well, posting very short replies does nothing to forward the conversation. Without any explanation your comment is essentially useless. Constantly posting useless comments is one sign of an troll.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:16 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
It was your claim, therefore your burden to supply evidence to support it. You questioned Thor's comment that the Pope is infallible, but instead of supplying evidence for it all you did was attack him for quoting Wikipedia.

It's disingenuous to ask everyone to do your homework for you. A constructive debate involves not only bringing facts to the table, but supplying evidence to back them up. Without evidence, one "fact" is just as good as another.
Yeah, it was actually his claim. I did not attack him for citing Wikipedia, I pointed out that the entire Wikipedia article, rather than the single sentence that was cherry picked, destroyed the misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine.

Baffled that people did not bother to read the entire introduction to the Wikipedia article.

Oh well that is what I get for expecting that people do their homework.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:17 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
What do Canada Savings Bonds have to do with ex cathedra pronouncements?

Or maybe you were referring to the Cree School Board in Québec? In that case your comment is off-topic, because we're talking about the Roman Catholic Church here and not the education of Canadian indigenous peoples.

My real comment: unless done well, posting very short replies does nothing to forward the conversation. Without any explanation your comment is essentially useless. Constantly posting useless comments is one sign of an troll.
Neat.

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Old 10th October 2017, 01:48 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Pope was not acting infalliably but failed to mention that? Huh.

Next error: "promotion" decisions are not eligible for pronouncements ex cathdra. But I am guessing that everyone knew that too.

Oh yes as I mentioned the Pope doesn't do that ex cathedra stuff very much - only once since 1870. It's a toy given to him by God that he doesn't have much time for it seems. Please read Craig B's response ^.
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Old 10th October 2017, 01:51 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Neat.


So in responce to Blue Mountain's suggestion that short responses don't add much to the discussion you reply with a one worder.
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Old 10th October 2017, 02:42 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh yes as I mentioned the Pope doesn't do that ex cathedra stuff very much - only once since 1870. It's a toy given to him by God that he doesn't have much time for it seems. Please read Craig B's response ^.
Then why did you claim that the Pope used divine inspiration to promote Pell, forcing me to nuke the claim from orbit and to expose it as a lie?
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Old 10th October 2017, 02:49 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, it was actually his claim. I did not attack him for citing Wikipedia, I pointed out that the entire Wikipedia article, rather than the single sentence that was cherry picked, destroyed the misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine.
That is a lie. I read the moderated post before zooterkin snipped it for being a rule 12 violation. It was nothing but an ad hominem attack on Thor 2 for quoting Wikipedia and, if I recall correctly, did nothing to address his comment about the Pope being infallible. If you had put something like that into your post, zooterkin would not have had a reason to remove it.

I was careful not to quote it in my post #330 out of concern it, too, could be moderated or shipped off to AAH.

Quote:
Oh well that is what I get for expecting that people do their homework.
Asking people to "do their homework" on an internet forum can lead to unexpected results. While a search on "Papal Infallibility" quickly shows me that the RCC's position is not that the pope is always infallible, the internet as a whole is full of bad information. For example, searching for medical advice is rife for potential bad results, some of which could even kill you. It's for these reasons the skeptics on this site usually try to back up their claims with evidence instead of just proclaiming it. And even with that there are lively debates--just look at the politics forums!
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Old 10th October 2017, 02:54 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sure all you would have had to do is read the entire Wikipedia article introduction. Just a few more lines in fact. (but not linked of course, because of course it wasn't)

"The use of this power is referred to as speaking ex cathedra.[5] The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith"

Huh. Once. Say, just curious, what did you do to investigate the merits of his claim anyway? I mean you did of course investigate it, right, and determined quite quickly that he was grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, right? Of course you did... but you didn't ask him (the original proponent of the claim and Anti-Catholic... whoops! Anti Catholicism) for, you know, actual support.

Regale us then of tales of research!

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
That is a lie. I read the moderated post before zooterkin snipped it for being a rule 12 violation. It was nothing but an ad hominem attack on Thor 2 for quoting Wikipedia and, if I recall correctly, did nothing to address his comment about the Pope being infallible. If you had put something like that into your post, zooterkin would not have had a reason to remove it.

I was careful not to quote it in my post #330 out of concern it, too, could be moderated or shipped off to AAH.
You
Asking people to "do their homework" on an internet forum can lead to unexpected results. While a search on "Papal Infallibility" quickly shows me that the RCC's position is not that the pope is always infallible, the internet as a whole is full of bad information. For example, searching for medical advice is rife for potential bad results, some of which could even kill you. It's for these reasons the skeptics on this site usually try to back up their claims with evidence instead of just proclaiming it. And even with that there are lively debates--just look at the politics forums!
Uh huh.
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Old 10th October 2017, 03:23 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Then why did you claim that the Pope used divine inspiration to promote Pell, forcing me to nuke the claim from orbit and to expose it as a lie?

Nuking me from orbit now are we?

No you see I am just referring to the fact that it's the belief in the Catholic Church, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, that the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error.

I know you are going to bang on about the ex cathedra thing again, but given the Pope has the ability to use divine inspiration, why does he leave it in the cupboard, and only bring it out every couple of hundred years?

I may be labouring the point here but the Catholic Church claims to be "The One True Church", as you have said yourself, and one of the foundation stones of this is Peter. Peter, who handed his sandals down through the ages and are now being worn by Francis, was given the "no possibility of error" thing. Why doesn't Francis use it then and effectively disarm himself?

Mind you, I must admit, the original Peter did not set a good example when he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed. This was predicted by Jesus himself of course ...... is there a contradiction in here somewhere?
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Old 10th October 2017, 03:42 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Nuking me from orbit now are we?

No you see I am just referring to the fact that it's the belief in the Catholic Church, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, that the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error.

I know you are going to bang on about the ex cathedra thing again, but given the Pope has the ability to use divine inspiration, why does he leave it in the cupboard, and only bring it out every couple of hundred years?

I may be labouring the point here but the Catholic Church claims to be "The One True Church", as you have said yourself, and one of the foundation stones of this is Peter. Peter, who handed his sandals down through the ages and are now being worn by Francis, was given the "no possibility of error" thing. Why doesn't Francis use it then and effectively disarm himself?

Mind you, I must admit, the original Peter did not set a good example when he denied Christ three times before the cock crowed. This was predicted by Jesus himself of course ...... is there a contradiction in here somewhere?
Fascinating. The claim was the promotion of Pell was divinely inspired, and when proven false the goal posts move.

I already also pointed out that ex cathedra does not apply to promotions, too, but perhaps we will get more blatant deflection, huh folks?

Oh well, I don't suspect that anyone is actually going to thank me for correcting the plethora of errors.
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Old 10th October 2017, 06:49 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Fascinating. The claim was the promotion of Pell was divinely inspired, and when proven false the goal posts move.

I already also pointed out that ex cathedra does not apply to promotions, too, but perhaps we will get more blatant deflection, huh folks?

Oh well, I don't suspect that anyone is actually going to thank me for correcting the plethora of errors.

Errr no, I didn't say that. I was just saying the Pope should have drawn on his non error making ability. I am not implying the big finger was coming down from the sky giving specific instructions on the issue.

Maybe I can help out here. Just to clarify the issue if as you are suggesting the Pope can only do the being infallible thing when it is ex cathedra.

From the Catholic Bible:

Matthew 16:18

"And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. "

Matthew 16:19

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven.”


Perhaps should be changed to:

Matthew 16:18

"And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. "

Matthew 16:19

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven. That is when you are speaking ex cathedra.


Glad I could help with that.
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Old 10th October 2017, 07:06 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So the Pope, using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others, who in turn promote those below them..
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Errr no, I didn't say that.
Uh huh.

So that just happened.

Also a deliberate, blatant misrepresentation of Matthew 16:19. wow
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Old 10th October 2017, 09:11 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh huh.
Do try to keep up. For those people following this sidetrack, you just now quoted your post #331. But my comment about "that is a lie," was referring to your post #328..
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Old 10th October 2017, 09:15 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh huh.

So that just happened.

Also a deliberate, blatant misrepresentation of Matthew 16:19. wow
Once again we have an evidence-free post. You've said only that it is a "blatant misrepresentation," but have completely failed to show how it is a misrepresentation. Again, don't ask us to do your homework for you. Show us why we should choose your interpretation over Thor 2's.
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Old 10th October 2017, 10:57 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh huh.

So that just happened.

Also a deliberate, blatant misrepresentation of Matthew 16:19. wow

OK, you got me there I did use that divinely word oops. You had to go back aways to find it however.

As Blue Mountain said though please show how I was blatantly misrepresenting Mathew.
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:01 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So how do you account for cases like Brendan Smith, a man whose grotesque abuse was not only covered up by the hierarchy, but actively facilitated by it?

Yes The Big Dog, how about an answer to abaddon's question. Is abaddon on your **** list so you don't answer him?
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:55 PM   #354
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In 1905, France adopted a Law providing for the constitutional separation of Church and State. The then reigning Pope, Pius X - he's also a Saint, by the way,- expressed his indignation in an Encylical, Vehementer Nos, in which he pronounced upon the relationship between the hierarchy and the faithful in the Church.

This explains how abuses of authority have been, if possible, covered up or exculpated by the highest officials in the Church. We must applaud the recent welcome signs of change in this area.

Here is what St Pius X told the French, not in the Middle Ages, but at the beginning of the twentieth century:
It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body only rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end; the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors.
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:11 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

Matthew 16:19

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven. That is when you are speaking ex cathedra.” [/i]

Glad I could help with that.
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Once again we have an evidence-free post. You've said only that it is a "blatant misrepresentation," but have completely failed to show how it is a misrepresentation. Again, don't ask us to do your homework for you. Show us why we should choose your interpretation over Thor 2's.
The actual Catholic bible:

Matt 16 18-20

Quote:
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20* m Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.
The hilarious part is being accused of not doing my homework by someone who did not even bother to check the actual Bible verse "quoted."
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:27 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The actual Catholic bible:

Matt 16 18-20



The hilarious part is being accused of not doing my homework by someone who did not even bother to check the actual Bible verse "quoted."
Why should any non-believer attend to the verse anyway? Only people already in the Church believe that what Jesus said to Peter in 33 AD has anything to do with a political decision made in 1870 AD by a person such as Pius IX.

If Peter had been alive in Rome that year, he would have just been emerging from the Roman GhettoWP in which Pius compelled Jews to reside up to the moment when he was belatedly deposed by the Kingdom of Italy. You know how Pius treated Jews. Or if you don't I will remind you about the Mortara caseWP. Infallible?

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Old 11th October 2017, 07:28 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The actual Catholic bible:

Matt 16 18-20



The hilarious part is being accused of not doing my homework by someone who did not even bother to check the actual Bible verse "quoted."
Which actual Catholic bible? There are several.

In any event, have a whole hatload of different versions:

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2016:19

Pick one you prefer and tell us all why.
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Old 11th October 2017, 12:06 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why should any non-believer attend to the verse anyway?
Um, you might want to direct that question to the person quoting scripture in the first place to "support" a bastardized and completely false assertion about Catholic doctrine that the Popewas "using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others"

Which was subsequently falsely denied, and which fact was curiously was not addressed by any fellow travelers.

Our atheism, right or wrong, huh folks?
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Old 11th October 2017, 12:54 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Um, you might want to direct that question to the person quoting scripture in the first place to "support" a bastardized and completely false assertion about Catholic doctrine that the Popewas "using his divinely inspired judgment promotes others"

Which was subsequently falsely denied, and which fact was curiously was not addressed by any fellow travelers.

Our atheism, right or wrong, huh folks?
What exactly is a "popewas"?
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:41 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The actual Catholic bible:

Matt 16 18-20



The hilarious part is being accused of not doing my homework by someone who did not even bother to check the actual Bible verse "quoted."

Don't know why you are splitting hairs about this. The version you have quoted says the same thing as the one I did essentially. Here's another I found from a Catholic website:

Quote:
18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'

Now which of these is the real thing then?

I would assume the Pope would have a look at different translations and give the nod if they were correct. Hang on though ....... if he were not doing his ex cathedra thing (which he does very sparingly), his opinion would not hold that much weight would it?
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