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Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , James Alex Fields , protest incidents , racism incidents , terrorism incidents

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Old 7th September 2017, 06:55 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
What a scumbag, that person who posted on Reddit
It is the Stormfront narrative however, that the victim was a fat slut. As I understand it (though I have never used reddit), reddit is a content accumulator which tends to tailor content to your expressed interests.

If someone has shown an appetite for neo-Nazi conspiracies then a story like the one outlined will find its way towards to the top of their "to read" list.
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Old 7th September 2017, 02:05 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
There's some talk on reddit about Heather Heyer's mother saying her daughter died from a heart attack. If she was struck by one of the vehicles and then had a heart attack, that's one thing. But if she wasn't actually struck during the car crash, then we have an obese cigarette smoker standing in the afternoon sun on a hot muggy day surrounded by a packed crowd of agitated ANTIFA who has a heart attack after witnessing a car hit another car. Maybe she didn't even witness the accident. That would change the narrative (not that anybody is going to admit that).

So now I'm wondering, where was Heather Heyer standing when James slammed into the crowd? I had assumed she was physically struck while standing between two cars but it's not been clear. Is she one of the people we see flying through the air in the photos or video?
Yeah, I've seen this poo up on other sites. It comes from reports of her being killed when the car plowed through the crowd, & people assuming that a woman who gets flipped over the car was her when it wasn't. This plus her mother mentioning the heart attack has become the "OMG gaiz! Teh narrative has changed!!!" moment for neo Nazis & other white nationalist supporters. She was in the crowd around the car & people were talking about a wound on her hip/leg, so the narrative pretty much stays the same.
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Old 7th September 2017, 03:17 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Yeah, I've seen this poo up on other sites. It comes from reports of her being killed when the car plowed through the crowd, & people assuming that a woman who gets flipped over the car was her when it wasn't. This plus her mother mentioning the heart attack has become the "OMG gaiz! Teh narrative has changed!!!" moment for neo Nazis & other white nationalist supporters. She was in the crowd around the car & people were talking about a wound on her hip/leg, so the narrative pretty much stays the same.
Typo or metaphor?

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Old 7th September 2017, 11:53 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Till this point, while I have often disagreed with you sir, I have accepted it is a difference of political and social opinion. However, this places you far beyond the pale of any decent human being. Just because sub-human scum on the alt-right give credence to ridiculous conspiracy fantasies does not mean any decent or sane human being should give the time of day to the bilge-water they spew out. Please, consider the line you are being spun and where it comes from before posting the like here again.
If a year from now we're all posting about a trial connected to this case and it's being proven and admitted to by medical examiners and EMTs under oath that she didn't suffer any injury which would lead to death in a normal person, and they're forced to concede in said trial that her health contributed greatly, this post is going to look rather silly.

Then again, a post essentially saying "how dare you offend my sensibilities, sir?!?" looks silly already on a skeptics board.
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Old 8th September 2017, 01:34 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If a year from now we're all posting about a trial connected to this case and it's being proven and admitted to by medical examiners and EMTs under oath that she didn't suffer any injury which would lead to death in a normal person, and they're forced to concede in said trial that her health contributed greatly, this post is going to look rather silly.

Then again, a post essentially saying "how dare you offend my sensibilities, sir?!?" looks silly already on a skeptics board.
It is of no legal significance whatsoever what her state of health was when the driver murdered her. The fact that the person the defendant murdered was in poor health could be an aggravating factor.
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Old 8th September 2017, 01:57 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If a year from now we're all posting about a trial connected to this case and it's being proven and admitted to by medical examiners and EMTs under oath that she didn't suffer any injury which would lead to death in a normal person, and they're forced to concede in said trial that her health contributed greatly
...then the dude who drove the car in your little white nationalist pseudo-nazi fantasy would still be a murderer and a terrorist.
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Old 8th September 2017, 03:14 AM   #367
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The woman died because this scum drove a car into a crowd of protesters. Whether it was from physical injuries from being hit herself or from a heart attack from shock, the driver caused her death by his unprovoked action. But then as others here have observed you are a holocaust denier so most probably no douchebaggery is beneath your limited intellect and conscience.
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Old 8th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #368
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Are the reports from your types of new sources? Let's face it, those aren't run by honorable people.
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Old 8th September 2017, 12:45 PM   #369
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Skeptic Tank, you are wrong and you are very misguided. However that almost doesn't matter although it doesn't speak well to your ability to critrically examine evidence and reach properly considered conclusions. What matters is that a woman died because of the actions of one of your fellow travellers. The efforts of you and people like you to victim blame have been noted and speak to your biases and bigotry rather than any truth. The one thing we can agree on is that we do have to await the outcome of any trial but I have faith that even in the bad dream of Trump's America there are more good and smart people like the Americans I have known than there are people like you and the alt-right marchers in Charlottesville. If that is true, justice will be served.
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Old 8th September 2017, 01:39 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Skeptic Tank, you are wrong and you are very misguided. However that almost doesn't matter although it doesn't speak well to your ability to critrically examine evidence and reach properly considered conclusions. What matters is that a woman died because of the actions of one of your fellow travellers. The efforts of you and people like you to victim blame have been noted and speak to your biases and bigotry rather than any truth. The one thing we can agree on is that we do have to await the outcome of any trial but I have faith that even in the bad dream of Trump's America there are more good and smart people like the Americans I have known than there are people like you and the alt-right marchers in Charlottesville. If that is true, justice will be served.
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Old 8th September 2017, 02:43 PM   #371
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The Thin Skull Rule applies for civil actions, and I think there was a criminal counterpart.

IIRC, a stable but fragile victim does not limit the tortfeasors liability. The tortfeasor chose the victim, not the other way around.

For criminal law you have to consider mens rea, but I think the intention of speeding into a crowd seems sufficient for manslaughter if not murder. I don't do criminal law, though.

It could be an interesting case, but I bet it will be rather open and shut once there has been further discovery.
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Old 8th September 2017, 02:52 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The Thin Skull Rule applies for civil actions, and I think there was a criminal counterpart.

IIRC, a stable but fragile victim does not limit the tortfeasors liability. The tortfeasor chose the victim, not the other way around.

For criminal law you have to consider mens rea, but I think the intention of speeding into a crowd seems sufficient for manslaughter if not murder. I don't do criminal law, though.

It could be an interesting case, but I bet it will be rather open and shut once there has been further discovery.
I believe an awful lot of states have passed laws which make something first degree murder if someone dies as a result of you committing a felony. e.g. you are robbing a liquor store. The store owner shoots at you, as an act of legitimate self defense, and misses. The store owner hits, and kills, an innocent bystander. The robber becomes guilty of first degree murder.

I wonder if that could apply here, which would create a bit of an irony. They have charged the fellow with second degree murder. Presumably that's because they think there is no provable premeditation. Seems like a second degree murder case. However, wait a moment. Suppose Heather Heyer turns out not to have been in the direct vehicle path. If that's the case, then James Fields wasn't trying to kill her, but was instead engaged in the crime of assault with intent to commit murder on all those people directly in front of him. As a result of his actions, someone died, which means the victim died while Mr. Fields was committing a crime. That could be first degree murder.

Well that's all for the lawyers to work out, and conceivably a jury. I doubt we'll see a jury on this one, though. If the state doesn't seek death, it sounds like a plea bargain case.

ETA: And all that assumes that the victim wasn't actually struck by the car. Since the only source of that information is a bunch of internet Nazis, I'm a bit skeptical of that, too. I've been watching some youtube videos about "the truth" of Charlottesville, and these people clearly can't discern truth from fiction.

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Old 8th September 2017, 03:07 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I've been watching some youtube videos about "the truth" of Charlottesville, and these people clearly can't discern truth from fiction.
Literally

Truth

Skeptic

YouTube seems to have its own list of words that also serve as their own antonym.
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Old 8th September 2017, 08:50 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Typo or metaphor?

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Trying to watch my language around my son so... I'm gonna go with family friendly stand in maybe? ... Yeah, I'm not sure what to call it.
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Old 8th September 2017, 08:57 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Trying to watch my language around my son so... I'm gonna go with family friendly stand in maybe? ... Yeah, I'm not sure what to call it.
I think it was #2.
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:37 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Till this point, while I have often disagreed with you sir, I have accepted it is a difference of political and social opinion. However, this places you far beyond the pale of any decent human being. Just because sub-human scum on the alt-right give credence to ridiculous conspiracy fantasies does not mean any decent or sane human being should give the time of day to the bilge-water they spew out. Please, consider the line you are being spun and where it comes from before posting the like here again.
This "sub-human scum on the alt-right [who] give credence to ridiculous conspiracy fantasies" is Heather's mother. She said her daughter died of a heart attack. If it's true that Heather Heyer died of a heart attack, it's still true if reddit, the Daily Stormer, or even the New York Times says it.

Does this change the narrative? Judging by the reaction I see to this revelation, it does. If you're emotionally invested in the "martyr for tolerance murdered by Nazi" story then you might be afraid that the truth will ruin the propaganda value of her death. Don't worry. Having a heart attack after being struck by a car means that James Fields is still responsible. But if Heather wasn't struck, maybe James isn't responsible?

So that's why the question is where was Heather standing when the crash occurred? Was she actually struck?
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:43 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Yeah, I've seen this poo up on other sites. It comes from reports of her being killed when the car plowed through the crowd, & people assuming that a woman who gets flipped over the car was her when it wasn't. This plus her mother mentioning the heart attack has become the "OMG gaiz! Teh narrative has changed!!!" moment for neo Nazis & other white nationalist supporters. She was in the crowd around the car & people were talking about a wound on her hip/leg, so the narrative pretty much stays the same.
Is it confirmed that that is her? If so, she's definitely close enough to the action to have been involved directly.
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:43 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The Thin Skull Rule applies for civil actions, and I think there was a criminal counterpart.

IIRC, a stable but fragile victim does not limit the tortfeasors liability. The tortfeasor chose the victim, not the other way around.

For criminal law you have to consider mens rea, but I think the intention of speeding into a crowd seems sufficient for manslaughter if not murder. I don't do criminal law, though.

It could be an interesting case, but I bet it will be rather open and shut once there has been further discovery.
I was thinking of death during commission of a felony. The victim died incident to the defendant's commission of a felony. The state of her health isn't material to the charge. In sentencing, the fact that he assaulted a person in ill health with his car could even be an aggravating factor although the prosecution has sometime of an embarrassment of riches when it comes to aggravating factors here.
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:51 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If a year from now we're all posting about a trial connected to this case and it's being proven and admitted to by medical examiners and EMTs under oath that she didn't suffer any injury which would lead to death in a normal person, and they're forced to concede in said trial that her health contributed greatly, this post is going to look rather silly.

Then again, a post essentially saying "how dare you offend my sensibilities, sir?!?" looks silly already on a skeptics board.
If the truth comes out that James Fields was being attacked by ANTIFA and accidentally drove into a group of people blocking the road in a desperate attempt to save his life and that an obese chain smoker who happened to be near the crowd had a heart attack, he will still be convicted. The photograph of him wearing a white polo shirt and carrying a shield is all it will take to do him in.
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:55 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If the truth comes out that James Fields was being attacked by ANTIFA and accidentally drove into a group of people blocking the road in a desperate attempt to save his life and that an obese chain smoker who happened to be near the crowd had a heart attack, he will still be convicted. The photograph of him wearing a white polo shirt and carrying a shield is all it will take to do him in.
The video of him accelerating into a crowd and killing someone and injuring others will do it.
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Old 9th September 2017, 12:08 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If the truth comes out that James Fields was being attacked by ANTIFA and accidentally drove into a group of people blocking the road in a desperate attempt to save his life
CT forum is thataway ->
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Old 9th September 2017, 03:15 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The videos(pl.) of him accelerating into a crowd and killing someone and injuring others as well as the numerous eyewitness accounts attesting to the same (seeing as how he drove through a *********** crowd in broad daylight) will do it.
FTFY

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Old 9th September 2017, 04:14 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If the truth comes out that James Fields was being attacked by ANTIFA and accidentally drove into a group of people blocking the road in a desperate attempt to save his life and that an obese chain smoker who happened to be near the crowd had a heart attack, he will still be convicted. The photograph of him wearing a white polo shirt and carrying a shield is all it will take to do him in.
You do realize that the only sources you have posted for this whole "heart attack" line are idiots (i.e. white supremacists, nationalists, Nazis, or other people obviously too stupid to actually process information) posting on reddit.

Now, I'm going to do some research and see if there's any truth to this at all.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:12 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You do realize that the only sources you have posted for this whole "heart attack" line are idiots (i.e. white supremacists, nationalists, Nazis, or other people obviously too stupid to actually process information) posting on reddit.

Now, I'm going to do some research and see if there's any truth to this at all.

They are right, her mother said shortly after her death that she died of a heart attack, here is the video. This was somehow missed and discovered recently by "the idiots" who had theorized for a while over why there is no published autopsy report for her.
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Old 9th September 2017, 06:06 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
They are right, her mother said shortly after her death that she died of a heart attack, here is the video. This was somehow missed and discovered recently by "the idiots" who had theorized for a while over why there is no published autopsy report for her.
I did my youtube research. There's some fascinating stuff.

It's true that Heather's mother is the source of the information about cause of death. She said that Heather had a heart attack.

I have seen other cases where someone dies due to some traumatic injury, and it is reported that there was "cardiac arrest", and that gets translated as heart attack. So, without some actual certification of cause of death from a knowledgeable medical source (i.e a real autopsy), I wouldn't put too much stock in it.


Also, trauma, i.e. hitting somebody really really hard, can cause a heart attack.

But was Heather Heyer actually hit by the car? There's some footage where Heather is visible, and it appears that the car is close to her, but not touching. It's really hard to say for sure. It would take much more detailed analysis than what I can do by looking at youtube to say for sure, but I'll tell you what it looks like to me. To me, it appears that the car struck someone else, who was thrown into Heather Heyer, who falls to the pavement, and dies.

I was fascinated at the imagery of her. The most common picture of her shows a pretty woman with a slightly mischievous smile. On the day of her death, it is true that she was an obese woman who was not recognizable as the woman in the other, obviously much older, photo. That's not really relevant to the question of whether or not James Fields caused her death, but it's just interesting the way things get spun.

I have also seen several discussions of James Fields' white supremacy that stretched back to his high school days, but I hadn't seen anything saying he was diagnosed as schizophrenic, which was reported by several videos.

I don't know exactly what to make of it. To me, though, it sure seems that her death was a direct result of a traumatic injury sustained as a result of the car crash, although it doesn't appear that she was actually struck by the car itself.

I'm sure that most of this will be straightened out at trial, if there is one. If Fields is offered, and accepts, a plea bargain, much of it might remain off the record.
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Old 9th September 2017, 10:31 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I did my youtube research. There's some fascinating stuff.

It's true that Heather's mother is the source of the information about cause of death. She said that Heather had a heart attack.
I noticed you didn't link to any source. Is that because the only sources you could find "for this whole "heart attack" line are idiots (i.e. white supremacists, nationalists, Nazis, or other people obviously too stupid to actually process information) posting on reddit."?

Quote:
I have seen other cases where someone dies due to some traumatic injury, and it is reported that there was "cardiac arrest", and that gets translated as heart attack. So, without some actual certification of cause of death from a knowledgeable medical source (i.e a real autopsy), I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

Also, trauma, i.e. hitting somebody really really hard, can cause a heart attack.
I think we can be reasonably certain that Heather's mother believes her daughter died of a heart attack. Was it actually 'cardiac arrest' and the mother translated it into 'heart attack?' It makes a difference because cardiac arrest and heart attack are different events.

As you said, if it was a heart attack, was the heart attack/cardiac arrest directly caused by something like a car-sized blunt force trauma to her body. Heart related events are sometimes triggered by something else..

Quote:
But was Heather Heyer actually hit by the car?
That is the million dollar question.

Quote:
There's some footage where Heather is visible, and it appears that the car is close to her, but not touching. It's really hard to say for sure. It would take much more detailed analysis than what I can do by looking at youtube to say for sure, but I'll tell you what it looks like to me. To me, it appears that the car struck someone else, who was thrown into Heather Heyer, who falls to the pavement, and dies.
Are you sure the video with Heather Heyer is actually really her? I've seen some footage on the ground that claim it shows Heather but I don't know if that is confirmed. Faith Goldy was very close to the cars has some streaming quality video of the accident itself and the aftermath. She's moving through the crowd recording the victims and narrating what she is witnessing. The camera pans Heather Heyer (or a heavyset woman lying on the ground wearing a black top that I think is Heather) and Ms Goldy is saying something about "they're trying to stop the bleeding." But it's not clear if she is talking about Heather or another victim.

Excessive blood loss could trigger a cardiac arrest. But a simple heart attack or cardiac arrest alone wouldn't result in external bleeding. So if Heather was bleeding badly, I think the likelihood of James Fields being the cause of her death is pretty good. But Faith Goldy could have been mistaken. She might not have been talking about Heather when she said she saw somebody bleeding. I might've misinterpreted what Faith Goldy was saying. But the big problem is that, as you know, Faith Goldy is Nazi scum who is always telling Nazi lies to stupid Nazis so we automatically reject anything she says even if what she said supports the official narrative.

I saw some video of one of the people who gave Heather CPR on the scene. He said she looked pretty bad but didn't say anything about stopping bleeding or anything that indicates it was anything more than a heart attack.

Another interview I saw was of the fiance of the one of the people in mid air in those photographs. This woman was friends with Heather and said Heather was right in front her when her fiance pushed her out of the way of the Challenger and was himself struck. That would put Heather close enough to the action to have been hit. But that would also put her close enough to the action to have been captured on film and I don't see her in the photo. Also, as usual, the woman doesn't say that Heather was actually hit.

So basically, we don't know. I don't think the facts we have now support your theory that she was struck by another victim and was knocked down. I don't think the facts we have allow us to reject the theory that she was actually struck by the vehicle either.

I think it's odd that it isn't possible to find out where Heather was standing when she was hit by the car (if she was hit by the car) and where was when she was on the ground. Whenever there is a terror attack in Europe we can find a timeline and a map showing the route the terrorists took, where people were struck and killed, where the driver was shot dead, etc. Why not here?

Quote:
I was fascinated at the imagery of her. The most common picture of her shows a pretty woman with a slightly mischievous smile. On the day of her death, it is true that she was an obese woman who was not recognizable as the woman in the other, obviously much older, photo. That's not really relevant to the question of whether or not James Fields caused her death, but it's just interesting the way things get spun.
Yes, it is interesting the way things get spun.

Quote:
I have also seen several discussions of James Fields' white supremacy that stretched back to his high school days, but I hadn't seen anything saying he was diagnosed as schizophrenic, which was reported by several videos. I don't know exactly what to make of it. To me, though, it sure seems that her death was a direct result of a traumatic injury sustained as a result of the car crash, although it doesn't appear that she was actually struck by the car itself.
You know exactly what to make of it: A beautiful innocent angel was brutally murdered by insane Nazi scum when he intentionally drove Das Challenger directly into a peaceful group of hippies who had gathered together for support after being frightened earlier that day by White people wearing polo shirts and carrying tiki torches. That's exactly what to make of it and you're Nazi scum if you don't.

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I'm sure that most of this will be straightened out at trial, if there is one. If Fields is offered, and accepts, a plea bargain, much of it might remain off the record.
Unless Mr. Field's can afford an attorney, he'll get a public defender who will encourage him to plead out. Any evidence that supports the official narrative will be available to the public. Any evidence that contradicts the official narrative will not be reported or promoted by the mainstream media.

As always, I predict that the longer we go without the official narrative being confirmed unambiguously, the less likely it is that the official narrative is true.
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Old 10th September 2017, 03:30 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
As always, I predict that the longer we go without the official narrative being confirmed unambiguously, the less likely it is that the official narrative is true.
What "official narrative"? If the Government is the source of the official narrative then you have "On many Sides" Trump backing your weak sauce claim of violence on both sides. Indeed any sources I have seen have tended to come from people in churches and synagogues who were grateful of the support offered to them AGAINST the intimidation of your fellow travellers in the Nazi/Alt-Right/White Nationalist/White Supremacist (please feel free to pick whichever of these odious philosophies you think may gain you the most sympathy here, good luck with that) by anti-fascist protesters. Your victim blaming has been noted, but then that is not new from your posting history.
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Old 10th September 2017, 03:40 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
What "official narrative"? If the Government is the source of the official narrative then you have "On many Sides" Trump backing your weak sauce claim of violence on both sides. Indeed any sources I have seen have tended to come from people in churches and synagogues who were grateful of the support offered to them AGAINST the intimidation of your fellow travellers in the Nazi/Alt-Right/White Nationalist/White Supremacist (please feel free to pick whichever of these odious philosophies you think may gain you the most sympathy here, good luck with that) by anti-fascist protesters. Your victim blaming has been noted, but then that is not new from your posting history.
And regardless of that, there weren't any innocent Nazis at the the protests.

The least bad of them still were trying to intimidate and threaten people.
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Old 10th September 2017, 07:58 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I noticed you didn't link to any source. Is that because the only sources you could find "for this whole "heart attack" line are idiots (i.e. white supremacists, nationalists, Nazis, or other people obviously too stupid to actually process information) posting on reddit."?
Pretty much. Most of the videos were indeed by idiots.

The bigger reason, though, is that I didn't think it was necessary. The people on this board who are interested will see me saying it, and most of them won't doubt it. You, on the other hand, don't have that reputation, so when you post a link to a reddit source, we are skeptical.

Come to think of it, linking to my sources, in this case, might actually lower my credibility.

Now, I'm going to speculate on something, but I'm guessing that you might think the fact that I could only find this on Nazi sympathiser videos says something about the mainstream media's coverup. Why can't I find this on mainstream media? Huh? What's up with that?

The answer to that is pretty simple, really. First, the actual clip where Heather's mother speaks is from the mainstream media, so it cannot be said (truthfully) that MSM didn't cover it. Second, I'm sure I could find it in a mainstream source if I tried. The reason it is easier to find it in the Nazi sympathizer sources is that they think it is HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT and so they shout it from the rooftops as if it were the most important bit of news to come out of Charlottesville. In reality, it isn't all that important.

Quote:
That is the million dollar question.
(in response to whether Heather Heyer was struck by the car)

It really isn't. It looks to me like she was knocked over by someone who was struck by the car, or possibly stepped on after she fell. To a judge, jury, or prosecutor, they would treat that exactly the same as if she were struck by the car.

It might make some difference if there were absolutely no evidence of blunt force trauma at all, i.e. if she just died of fright. Even then it wouldn't make much difference, and maybe none at all. She's still dead as a result of Fields running his car into the crowd. That's the bottom line that is going to be the major determiner of the charge and the sentence.

The best analysis of the video trying to determine whether Heather Heyer was struck by the car that I have seen was from a women named (at least on youtube) Lauren Rose. You can look it up if interested.
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Old 10th September 2017, 04:21 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Pretty much. Most of the videos were indeed by idiots.

The bigger reason, though, is that I didn't think it was necessary. The people on this board who are interested will see me saying it, and most of them won't doubt it.
Well, somebody has quite a high opinion of himself!

Quote:
You, on the other hand, don't have that reputation, so when you post a link to a reddit source, we are skeptical.
Fortunately for me, I stated a fact--Heather's mother said she died of a heart attack--and then provided a source--a video clip of her saying that was available on reddit. You have a preconceived notion that everything on reddit is false so you rejected my claim. Then, unlike many people here who are more interested in virtue signalling than learning the truth, you actually did some research. You found out that, even though I was the person who said it and even though my source was unreliable, what I claimed was in fact true. So now I have a reputation for providing accurate information and you have a reputation as a hothead who dismisses information before he does the research and then is forced to admit I was right. Or maybe neither of us really knows what anonymous people on the internet think about us.

In this case, reddit is a perfectly legitimate source for the facts I stated, as you yourself discovered.

Quote:
Come to think of it, linking to my sources, in this case, might actually lower my credibility.
Admitting that is going to do more to lower your credibility than actually providing a source would do. From here on out, every time you state a fact and don't provide a source, we will all wonder if you got that fact from some unreliable fake news conspiratard website that you're embarrassed to acknowledge.

Quote:
Now, I'm going to speculate on something, but I'm guessing that you might think the fact that I could only find this on Nazi sympathiser videos says something about the mainstream media's coverup. Why can't I find this on mainstream media? Huh? What's up with that?

The answer to that is pretty simple, really. First, the actual clip where Heather's mother speaks is from the mainstream media, so it cannot be said (truthfully) that MSM didn't cover it.
True that.

Quote:
Second, I'm sure I could find it in a mainstream source if I tried.
I don't think you could find the short version of Heather's mother say she died of a heart attack because that particular piece of information doesn't support the official narrative.

Quote:
The reason it is easier to find it in the Nazi sympathizer sources is that they think it is HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT and so they shout it from the rooftops as if it were the most important bit of news to come out of Charlottesville. In reality, it isn't all that important.
I didn't find this information on Nazi websites. I saw it on some White Nationalist, or, you know, Jew websites but there really aren't very many Nazi sympathizer websites out there.
The importance of the fact that Heather died of a heart attack is not that it proves James Fields isn't responsible. It's important because it means that we need additional information before we can determine James Field's responsibility. If James Fields isn't responsible, her death cannot be blamed on White Nationalist/Jew/Nazis/KKK.

Quote:
(in response to whether Heather Heyer was struck by the car)

It really isn't. It looks to me like she was knocked over by someone who was struck by the car, or possibly stepped on after she fell. To a judge, jury, or prosecutor, they would treat that exactly the same as if she were struck by the car.
Actually it can matter a great deal if she was hit by a car or not. If it had been a drunk BLM member who plowed into the crowd, causing Heather to fall to the ground where a skinhead wearing a swastika armband stepped on her and killed her, are you going to blame her death on BLM?

Quote:
It might make some difference if there were absolutely no evidence of blunt force trauma at all, i.e. if she just died of fright. Even then it wouldn't make much difference, and maybe none at all. She's still dead as a result of Fields running his car into the crowd. That's the bottom line that is going to be the major determiner of the charge and the sentence.
If she was not hit by a car, she becomes an overweight chainsmoker who was chimping out along with a large crowd of people on a hot muggy afternoon who had a heart attack and collapsed on the street and died. If she witnessed the accident, the shock and fright might have triggered the heart attack. But we wouldn't know this because we can't ask her about it.

That's why more information about the cause of her heart attack would be useful.

Quote:
The best analysis of the video trying to determine whether Heather Heyer was struck by the car that I have seen was from a women named (at least on youtube) Lauren Rose. You can look it up if interested.
There's alot of Lauren Roses on Youtube. Can you be more specific?
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Old 10th September 2017, 04:58 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Fortunately for me, I stated a fact--Heather's mother said she died of a heart attack--and then provided a source--a video clip of her saying that was available on reddit. You have a preconceived notion that everything on reddit is false so you rejected my claim.
Close. I have a preconceived notion that controversial claims with reddit as the source cannot be trusted. I suppose I could have clicked on the link, but I don't do reddit.

Quote:
So now I have a reputation for providing accurate information
Well I can vouch that you got it right this time.

Quote:
and you have a reputation as a hothead who dismisses information before he does the research and then is forced to admit I was right.
Perhaps.

Quote:
In this case, reddit is a perfectly legitimate source for the facts I stated, as you yourself discovered.
Neither reddit nor youtube are trustworthy sources, but each can contain good information. We rely on people to examine information on those sources and try to separate reality from fantasy. Both sources are filled with nonsense that can't be trusted.

Quote:
From here on out, every time you state a fact and don't provide a source, we will all wonder if you got that fact from some unreliable fake news conspiratard website that you're embarrassed to acknowledge.
I doubt it.

Quote:
I didn't find this information on Nazi websites. I saw it on some White Nationalist,
Whatever.

Quote:
Actually it can matter a great deal if she was hit by a car or not. If it had been a drunk BLM member who plowed into the crowd, causing Heather to fall to the ground where a skinhead wearing a swastika armband stepped on her and killed her, are you going to blame her death on BLM?
No. I am going to blame her death on the driver of the car, just like I will blame the real Heather Heyer's death on the driver of the real car in this real case. (Well, pending investigations, trials, etc. I'm just saying he sure looks guilty to me.)

Quote:
If she was not hit by a car, she becomes an overweight chainsmoker who was chimping out along with a large crowd of people on a hot muggy afternoon who had a heart attack and collapsed on the street and died. If she witnessed the accident, the shock and fright might have triggered the heart attack. But we wouldn't know this because we can't ask her about it.
Chimping out? How disgusting of you to say that.

But you are also underestimating how much medical science can determine from her body. We don't have to ask her.


Quote:
There's alot of Lauren Roses on Youtube. Can you be more specific?
The title is:

Heather Heyer Died by a Heart Attack - The MSM Lied (Again)
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:43 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Well, somebody has quite a high opinion of himself!
I'd say merely realistic.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Fortunately for me, I stated a fact--Heather's mother said she died of a heart attack--<SNIP>

In this case, reddit is a perfectly legitimate source for the facts I stated, as you yourself discovered.
Congrats on continuing to knock down strawmen. Who was disputing what the mother said ?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Admitting that is going to do more to lower your credibility than actually providing a source would do. From here on out, every time you state a fact and don't provide a source, we will all wonder if you got that fact from some unreliable fake news conspiratard website that you're embarrassed to acknowledge.
No, we won't.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The importance of the fact that Heather died of a heart attack is not that it proves James Fields isn't responsible. It's important because it means that we need additional information before we can determine James Field's responsibility. <SNIP>
I think enough information was gathered to determine it was his responsibility and charge him.

If you want to move the conversation forward, you need to stop JAQing off and provide facts that counter the narrative. So far, you have not.

So far, your post belongs in the CT section. I don't really expect that change.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:59 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The importance of the fact that Heather died of a heart attack is not that it proves James Fields isn't responsible. It's important because it means that we need additional information before we can determine James Field's responsibility. If James Fields isn't responsible, her death cannot be blamed on White Nationalist/Jew/Nazis/KKK

If she was not hit by a car, she becomes an overweight chainsmoker who was chimping out along with a large crowd of people on a hot muggy afternoon who had a heart attack and collapsed on the street and died. If she witnessed the accident, the shock and fright might have triggered the heart attack. But we wouldn't know this because we can't ask her about it.

That's why more information about the cause of her heart attack would be useful.
My mother was suffering from cancer. Her brittle bones because of that caused her to break a leg and end up in hospital. The cancer was still attacking her, but when she eventually died a week after being hospitalised the death certificate said she died of pneumonia. In other words the cancer was what was causing her death although the pneumonia was the thing that ended her life. Miss Heyer may have died of a heart attack as per the death certificate but what caused it was being part of a crowd which was attacked by a white nationalist supporter in his car. You continue to victim blame not because you want the truth but because you want your twisted world view of white nationalism not to be responsible for this woman's death. But in the depths of your denial you know the car driver was responsible. All that remains to be established is whether it was manslaughter or murder. Any evidence I have seen so far it looks like murder to me but that is what his trial will establish.
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Old 11th September 2017, 02:36 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Close. I have a preconceived notion that controversial claims with reddit as the source cannot be trusted. I suppose I could have clicked on the link, but I don't do reddit.



Well I can vouch that you got it right this time.



Perhaps.



Neither reddit nor youtube are trustworthy sources, but each can contain good information. We rely on people to examine information on those sources and try to separate reality from fantasy. Both sources are filled with nonsense that can't be trusted.



I doubt it.



Whatever.



No. I am going to blame her death on the driver of the car, just like I will blame the real Heather Heyer's death on the driver of the real car in this real case. (Well, pending investigations, trials, etc. I'm just saying he sure looks guilty to me.)



Chimping out? How disgusting of you to say that.

But you are also underestimating how much medical science can determine from her body. We don't have to ask her.
Medical science cannot determine what she was thinking when she died.



Quote:
The title is:

Heather Heyer Died by a Heart Attack - The MSM Lied (Again)
Thank you. That was helpful to know. It appears that she was definitely close enough to have been hit by James Fields.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:36 PM   #395
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Many a coroner, ME or attendant will specify the precise cause of death, which in many many cases is "heart attack" or "coronary failure". This can be from a gunshot wound, a stabbing, getting hit by a car, trampled by a panicking crowd who are trying to not get hit by a car, or simply being roughed up. Medical types being all sciencey and stuff, they will list that last item. "Heart failure" in common terms.

We can eliminate the obvious. There wasn't a gun or knife involved, for instance, and I don't think anyone's accused thugs of roughing people up in that group. But all that stuff in the middle? The hilited part. One or the other is what happened, and given our vast medical experience (we all play doctors and lawyers on the internet), it's pretty damned obvious that it's a much more probable cause than what the nazis and nazi apologists are proffering.... "Hey, **** happens. It was her time, and now they're trying to blame a patriotic crusader!"

Those of you familiar with Holocaust Denial will recognize the tactic. Those eighteen thousand pages of evidence over there? Oh, pay that no never mind. Here's a (((person))) who embroidered a story once, so that disproves the whole thing. ***88***
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:58 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I'd say merely realistic.



Congrats on continuing to knock down strawmen. Who was disputing what the mother said ?



No, we won't.



I think enough information was gathered to determine it was his responsibility and charge him.

If you want to move the conversation forward, you need to stop JAQing off and provide facts that counter the narrative. So far, you have not.
The only information that you have are the various photos and video that we've all seen on Youtube. Whatever information law enforcement knows is not being shared with the public. So all that any of us really know right now is that a car drove into a crowd of people and then backed up. To call this a murder or a domestic terror attack, you need to know what James Field's intent was.

What facts do you know that support the narrative?

Quote:
So far, your post belongs in the CT section. I don't really expect that change.
You do know that Conspiracy Theory means a theory that two or more people collaborated on something? It's not simply a theory of how something happened that you don't like. We're both speculating on possible scenarios based on limited information. My scenario requires no collaboration between two or more people. Pedestrians are killed by automobiles all the time and rarely is it assumed that the driver intended to kill the pedestrian. The official narrative that this a murder or especially a domestic terrorist attack is more likely to need a shadowy conspiracy than calling it an accident.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:26 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The only information that you have are the various photos and video that we've all seen on Youtube. Whatever information law enforcement knows is not being shared with the public. So all that any of us really know right now is that a car drove into a crowd of people and then backed up. To call this a murder or a domestic terror attack, you need to know what James Field's intent was.

What facts do you know that support the narrative?
That most other high-profile instances of vehicles running into pedestrians where a political motive seems apparent on its face are called such.

Statements from people in his social circles attesting that they were growing concerned with his interest in white nationalism (verbiage varies).

Quote:
You do know that Conspiracy Theory means a theory that two or more people collaborated on something? It's not simply a theory of how something happened that you don't like. We're both speculating on possible scenarios based on limited information. My scenario requires no collaboration between two or more people. Pedestrians are killed by automobiles all the time and rarely is it assumed that the driver intended to kill the pedestrian. The official narrative that this a murder or especially a domestic terrorist attack is more likely to need a shadowy conspiracy than calling it an accident.
Murder and terrorism do not require conspiratorial angles.

A lot of examples have been a socially isolated individual self-radicalizing through social networking, bombarding themselves with news from a narrow perspective, then low-key meetings/social events with like-minded people, etc. They don't have to plan sup3r-sekrit evil deeds with anyone else, they just convince themselves they're "participating in the cause."

Human beings are wonderful that way: garbage in, garbage out.
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:51 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
That most other high-profile instances of vehicles running into pedestrians where a political motive seems apparent on its face are called such.
"Where a political motive seems apparent" is the operative phrase here. No political motive is apparent.

Quote:
Statements from people in his social circles attesting that they were growing concerned with his interest in white nationalism (verbiage varies).
Were his friends saying they were concern about his propensity for violence? Did they comment on disturbing mood changes? Anybody say that mowing down protesters was totally something they could see him doing?

Having an interest in White nationalism means nothing. It's not against law nor is it indicative of a mental disorder for a person to believe that Israel has a sensible immigration policy or that the United States should treat Mexicans sneaking into our country the way Mexico treats Guatemalans sneaking into theirs.


Quote:
Murder and terrorism do not require conspiratorial angles.
An accident doesn't either.

Quote:
A lot of examples have been a socially isolated individual self-radicalizing through social networking, bombarding themselves with news from a narrow perspective, then low-key meetings/social events with like-minded people, etc. They don't have to plan sup3r-sekrit evil deeds with anyone else, they just convince themselves they're "participating in the cause."

Human beings are wonderful that way: garbage in, garbage out.
Alot of examples of people becoming frightened when they are attacked by a gang of masked thugs and trying to escape.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:53 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
"Where a political motive seems apparent" is the operative phrase here. No political motive is apparent.
Neo-Nazi drives into anti-facist counter demonstration and you say there's no apparent political motive ? Pull the other one, it has bells on
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:00 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
"Where a political motive seems apparent" is the operative phrase here. No political motive is apparent.
The entire event and his reason for being there was political.

Quote:
Were his friends saying they were concern about his propensity for violence? Did they comment on disturbing mood changes? Anybody say that mowing down protesters was totally something they could see him doing?
The statements land within the same range as similar incidents.

Don't over play your hand.

Quote:
Having an interest in White nationalism means nothing. It's not against law nor is it indicative of a mental disorder for a person to believe that Israel has a sensible immigration policy or that the United States should treat Mexicans sneaking into our country the way Mexico treats Guatemalans sneaking into theirs.
Having an interest in ISIS means nothing...

Quote:
An accident doesn't either.
Are you suggesting he accidentally plowed into a group of protesters?

Quote:
Alot of examples of people becoming frightened when they are attacked by a gang of masked thugs and trying to escape.
Which is it? Accident or fleeing in credible fear for his life (with his vehicle...into a crowd of people...who were not attacking him)?

I doubt there are "alot" of examples of what you describe.



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