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Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , James Alex Fields , protest incidents , racism incidents , terrorism incidents

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Old 19th August 2017, 07:35 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
...realised somewhere half a block down that an unguided demonstration was coming wrong way up the one way street.

ETA: I'm wrong here: The counter-protesters were heading down the hill, in the same direction that Mr. Fields was heading. Still, there were vehicles in front of him that he surely could see that the counter-protesters were not molesting, so there was no need for panic.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I personally think he did a burst forward with the car to try to show them he meant business and wanted through...

That's what horns are for. You'll note a curious lack of honking from Mr. Fields' vehicle.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 19th August 2017 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:03 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
ETA: I'm wrong here: The counter-protesters were heading down the hill, in the same direction that Mr. Fields was heading. Still, there were vehicles in front of him that he surely could see that the counter-protesters were not molesting, so there was no need for panic.

Did you ride down the hill with Google StreetView? If not, do it. From the top, see edit in my detailed post.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:28 PM   #83
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You do not drive a car, at any speed, into a group of people. Accident, my ass! There is nothing on his car to identify him as a neo-nazi. There are cars ahead of him that are not being molested. Had he just inched along like the other vehicles were trying to do, the crowd would have parted and gone around him. He chose to drive into the crowd by way of hitting another car and then intentionally (not accidentally) sped away in reverse, running over people on the way.

What reads "accident" about those actions? "Oops, I accidentally found myself in a group of people I'd probably rather not be amongst. Better floor it!"
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:43 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post

What reads "accident" about those actions? "Oops, I accidentally found myself in a group of people I'd probably rather not be amongst. Better floor it!"
If the car was struck before accelerating, and that triggered a flight reaction, I think that could broadly be referred to as negligent. I don't think it would count as accident.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:46 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
...and then intentionally (not accidentally) sped away in reverse...

And that's another point. He clearly had no problem just backing up, but for some reason he felt his first attempt to get away had to be through two cars and dozens of people? I'm sorry, but even I don't think a neo-Nazi is that easily panicked into such a brain-dead state.

This is just an attempt to diminish or distract from the threat posed by Nazi ideology by passing Mr. Fields off as just woefully incapable of dealing with minor anxiety.

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Old 19th August 2017, 08:48 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
My money is on accident (plus action under shock on the way back up) now. Thoughts?
If your analysis is right, it seems more like road rage than accident.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:52 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I don't think a neo-Nazi is that easily panicked into such a brain-dead state.
If I had to bet, I would go with the neo Nazis for most easily panicked.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:54 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Title should be "Charlottesville terrorist attack video".
You are calling the Charlottesville "anti-fascists" terrorists

(Not disagreeing, just noting for posterity.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:56 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I posted that link yesterday and it appears that the video has been changed slightly. It zooms in on the guy hitting the car and conveniently edits out the beginning when the car takes off showing the drivers intent. The car is already fully accelerating and the guy who strikes the car is, IMO, trying to get the attention of the driver and make the car slow down.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=322173
Bad choice. When that happens a woman becomes deceased.
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Old 19th August 2017, 08:58 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
You are calling the Charlottesville "anti-fascists" terrorists

(Not disagreeing, just noting for posterity.
You actually wanted to preserve "I know you are but what am I?" for your scrapbook. Did you grab a screenshot?
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Old 19th August 2017, 09:01 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Bad choice. When that happens a woman becomes deceased.
The wife-beater defense, again. "Look what you made me do!"
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Old 19th August 2017, 09:20 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If your analysis is right, it seems more like road rage than accident.

How so?
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Old 19th August 2017, 09:27 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Nobody, and I mean nobody not intensely interested in constructing an extremely dangerous delusion, can watch these clips and rationalize what they see as "self defense". All of you who are attempting a benefit of the doubt should be utterly ashamed of yourselves. You disgrace and pervert the very notion of rationality.

This was, without the glimmer of a doubt in any reasonable person's mind, a deliberate attempt to injure and/or kill people. There is no reasonable doubt here.

* lot of evidence comes in the guy hasn't noticed and/or understood, as basic as the direction in which the crowd is going and that they are the wrong way up a one way street *

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
This is just an attempt to diminish or distract from the threat posed by Nazi ideology by passing Mr. Fields off as just woefully incapable of dealing with minor anxiety.

I don't even know what to write. Wouldn't be worth it anyway.
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Old 19th August 2017, 10:16 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
No dog in this fight, but -

http://i.imgur.com/ldg2nZv.jpg

He did brake and from the looks of car's posture, possibly swerving to avoid hitting the guy in the green shorts.

Maybe didn't want to kill a white guy. Who knows.
Maybe one dude in shorts wasn't important enough when a tempting tangle of innocent targets loomed right ahead.
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Old 19th August 2017, 11:20 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
How so?
Well, if he literally did not realize that he was about to hit a crowd, then it's not road rage.

However, that sounds a bit far fetched to me. The rest of your analysis, though, that he was angry already and found his way blocked by unorganized protesters seems reasonable, and it may be that he just decided to run into them because they made him mad.

In other words, to really understand what happened, we have to know his state of mind. Some options:

Hatred: I really hate liberals/*******/jews and I'm tired of them and I'm going to mow them down!
Anger: God dammit! Get out of my way! Take that!
Fear: Oh my God, they're trying to kill me! I can make a break for it through that crowd!
Cluelessness: Today really sucked, but these are some awesome tunes...and Oh ******

(Note: Counting on the autocensor here)

I guess we'll see which one his legal team goes with as the prosecution moves forward.
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Old 20th August 2017, 12:01 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Despicable Nazi terrorist apologetics in this thread.
I think the guy is guilty as sin and it's obvious that he wanted to use the chaos of the moment to get away with a possibly lethal attack.

That being said the people who do not share my opinion, are certainly not nazi apologists, (for feeling differently on this issue) and there is a real sense of "if you are not with us you are against us" in this thread. People could be mistaken in how they interpret the evidence, and if so, show them to be wrong, but the group think is getting kinda scary. We are skeptics, let's act like it. The guy attacked people with a car, in an obvious fashion, if you don't have anything better than hyperbole and shame, maybe you havnt reviewed the evidence enough, and if this is the case you are making your judgement on faith not logic.
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Old 20th August 2017, 12:27 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I think the guy is guilty as sin and it's obvious that he wanted to use the chaos of the moment to get away with a possibly lethal attack.

That being said the people who do not share my opinion, are certainly not nazi apologists, (for feeling differently on this issue) and there is a real sense of "if you are not with us you are against us" in this thread. People could be mistaken in how they interpret the evidence, and if so, show them to be wrong, but the group think is getting kinda scary. We are skeptics, let's act like it. The guy attacked people with a car, in an obvious fashion, if you don't have anything better than hyperbole and shame, maybe you havnt reviewed the evidence enough, and if this is the case you are making your judgement on faith not logic.
The "Nazi Apologist" accusation needs to be seen in two separate fashions:
> A) There are avowed white supremacists in this thread who, surprise surprise, see nothing but excuses for Mr. Nazi Sympathizer Car Runner Down Person. It would be disingenuous to give them the benefit of the doubt we give to group B.)
> B) There are hardass conservatives in the thread who will accept any mealy-mouthed explanation for anything negative that anyone on the right does. It's not that they're aware that they're nazi apologists, they just have a kneejerk need to find fault with anything done by progressives, liberals, black or brown people, feminists, or Naom Chomsky. They can't help themselves, poor things. Pointing out that they are actually crossing over into Nazi Apologetics should be viewed as a service.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:04 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The "Nazi Apologist" accusation needs to be seen in two separate fashions:
> A) There are avowed white supremacists in this thread who, surprise surprise, see nothing but excuses for Mr. Nazi Sympathizer Car Runner Down Person. It would be disingenuous to give them the benefit of the doubt we give to group B.)
> B) There are hardass conservatives in the thread who will accept any mealy-mouthed explanation for anything negative that anyone on the right does. It's not that they're aware that they're nazi apologists, they just have a kneejerk need to find fault with anything done by progressives, liberals, black or brown people, feminists, or Naom Chomsky. They can't help themselves, poor things. Pointing out that they are actually crossing over into Nazi Apologetics should be viewed as a service.
> C) There are some who wish to apply critical thinking in an attempt to unravel what may or may not have went down and to discuss it with other likeminded people, some of whom are participating here.

To offer either "avowed white supremacists" or "hardass conservatives in the thread who will accept any mealy-mouthed explanation for anything negative that anyone on the right does etc. etc." as the only explanations for anybody questioning the official story and public trail without jury of the driver, James Alex Fields Jr is somewhat limiting.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:18 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well, if he literally did not realize that he was about to hit a crowd, then it's not road rage.

However, that sounds a bit far fetched to me.

Did you take the ride down the hill with Google StreetView (just go straight forward a couple of blocks)? This is one bad view. We know from the videos that he indeed approached with considerable speed. I can't see how he did that AND have time to make any conscious decision once he saw what was in front of him.

edit: The first thing I wondered about in the videos is how the hell did he get there with his car in the first place. Answer: No roads were closed, he and the cars he crashed into just drove there. No police anywhere, the demonstration was a "wild" one on streets with traffic, entering a narrow open one way street the other way.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:19 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Thought experiment I want you all to seriously do:

All the same events of that day happened, including this car incident, but the rally was a pro-equality, pro-diversity rally with a permit and it got stormed by these white nationalists / Nazis / etc.

There was combat in the streets but in this version, things are reversed so ... near the park .... Her Prius is facing a hundred or so white nationalist Nazi KKK types, ...

...and in the end, a 32 year old ... man is dead. ...

You're on the jury. How do you vote on murder 2?
I clipped all the items of your story that have no parallel to the actual incident or are irrelevant (such as what shirt the driver wore, as this could not be seen behind the shaded windows).

I would vote for intentional homicide. As I previously said, I am not competent to go into the finer details of degrees and murder vs. manlaughter.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:21 AM   #101
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Great to see so many posters defend the driver while claiming that his victims were the real terrorists who had it coming.

Informs me who to stay away from...
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Great to see so many posters defend the driver while claiming that his victims were the real terrorists who had it coming.

Informs me who to stay away from...

Please do.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:40 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Great to see so many posters defend the driver while claiming that his victims were the real terrorists who had it coming.

Informs me who to stay away from...
How would you describe those who formed the group that the victims were in and what do you think were the intentions of this group on that particular day?
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:49 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
...No thoughts until BOOM.
The brief moment he did apply the breaks, as the one still photo shows, seems proof that he DID see he was going into obstacles (other word for "living people in the flesh and blood"). So he clearly was not blind.

Also, with the insistence that he wasn't going truly madly fast, there is no thought needed to just break and not run into what clearly is not a passable street.

What difference does it make if the protest was guarded or unguarded? What difference does it make if they walked against the direction of the one-way-street?
In a day of protests, isn't a street protest maybe the first thing you'd expect on the road?
Are you suggesting he was navigating by road map and the words of city permits, and thus justified to expect to find the road clear?

What utter utter nonsense is that?


I'd grant that this piece of **** Nazi ******* was all riled up and emotionally in distress. Still, he drove into a crowd with no intention to stop. He drove into an unpassable road, pedestrians blocking his way, on very obvious purpose. The only thing that may be called an "accident" is crashing into cars, as he may not have seen them when they were blocked by all the HUMANS!


He employed his muscle car as a weapon.
The most benign interpretation would be that maybe, perhaps, conceivable (though you Nazi enablers are speculating here with zero evidence, to apologize for this Nazi scum) he merely meant to use his deadly weapon to scare the crowd out of the street. But using a weapon against people, and ending up killing 1 and injuring 19, is homicide - most clearly NOT an accident.

Imagine him running at the crowd while shooting round after round out of an assault rifle. Aiming just over the head of the people he wants to FORCE out of the way. And ends up killing one and injuring 19 with his goddamned assault rifle.

Accident?

What utter, vile bollocks!
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:51 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No doubt the Jews orchestrated this!
Or, George Soros paying for this entire act.
Yep, Soros did it.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:53 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
...the small irregular demonstration and that it would come across that corner, the wrong way up a one way street, at that time.
Of what relevance is the direction of the one-way street? Pedestrians are not obliged to heed that sign, it's for wheeled traffic!
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:53 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The brief moment he did apply the breaks, as the one still photo shows, seems proof that he DID see he was going into obstacles (other word for "living people in the flesh and blood"). So he clearly was not blind.

Also, with the insistence that he wasn't going truly madly fast, there is no thought needed to just break and not run into what clearly is not a passable street.

What difference does it make if the protest was guarded or unguarded? What difference does it make if they walked against the direction of the one-way-street?
In a day of protests, isn't a street protest maybe the first thing you'd expect on the road?
Are you suggesting he was navigating by road map and the words of city permits, and thus justified to expect to find the road clear?

What utter utter nonsense is that?


I'd grant that this piece of **** Nazi ******* was all riled up and emotionally in distress. Still, he drove into a crowd with no intention to stop. He drove into an unpassable road, pedestrians blocking his way, on very obvious purpose. The only thing that may be called an "accident" is crashing into cars, as he may not have seen them when they were blocked by all the HUMANS!


He employed his muscle car as a weapon.
The most benign interpretation would be that maybe, perhaps, conceivable (though you Nazi enablers are speculating here with zero evidence, to apologize for this Nazi scum) he merely meant to use his deadly weapon to scare the crowd out of the street. But using a weapon against people, and ending up killing 1 and injuring 19, is homicide - most clearly NOT an accident.

Imagine him running at the crowd while shooting round after round out of an assault rifle. Aiming just over the head of the people he wants to FORCE out of the way. And ends up killing one and injuring 19 with his goddamned assault rifle.

Accident?

What utter, vile bollocks!
Very, very small point.......... they are brakes not breaks.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:54 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
How would you describe those who formed the group that the victims were in and what do you think were the intentions of this group on that particular day?
I don't see how the intentions of a crowd justify ramming into them with a speeding car.
Unless someone would like to argue that this was the only way to prevent greater harm...

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Old 20th August 2017, 03:56 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
...
Those who want to come up with a better scenario must first of all explain how he did know of the small irregular demonstration and that it would come across that corner, the wrong way up a one way street, at that time.
For FSM's sake how about by looking straight ahead while driving?!? Isnt that how every motorist is suppose to act?? It's not like it was foggy or the guy was coming around a corner or as if the crowd suddenly, magically materialized out of clear air!
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:05 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't see how the intention of a crowd justifies ramming into them with a speeding car.
I'm not making that case, would you be willing to answer the question I put to you? I'm interested to know, from you, what label you would use to describe those who formed the group that the victims were in, and what you think were the intentions of this group on that particular day?
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:07 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Or the driver, after being assaulted by a member of the crowd, speeds away in fear, and incidentally defends himself from the crowd with the best defensive weapon at hand- his car.
Not entirely wrong. Fascist bullies are indeed thumb-sucking cowards who panic easily, true. Their "bravery" also depends on unfair advantage, such as attacking the unaware from behind, true. Sissies through and through, moving in mobs for safety.

I understand the swastika really represents a broken or missing spine, four times over. Must be why their only topics are filth and dirt. Poor things!
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:15 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm not making that case, would you be willing to answer the question I put to you? I'm interested to know, from you, what label you would use to describe those who formed the group that the victims were in, and what you think were the intentions of this group on that particular day?
As I said, it's irrelevant. You don't plough a car into a crowd of people. If someone had rammed a crowd of Nazi protesters, my reaction would be the same.
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:15 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
> C) There are some who wish to apply critical thinking in an attempt to unravel what may or may not have went down and to discuss it with other likeminded people, some of whom are participating here.

To offer either "avowed white supremacists" or "hardass conservatives in the thread who will accept any mealy-mouthed explanation for anything negative that anyone on the right does etc. etc." as the only explanations for anybody questioning the official story and public trail without jury of the driver, James Alex Fields Jr is somewhat limiting.
Has this kind of "critical thinking" been applied at any time to an ISIS car attack?

No. We never get page after page of people going "maybe he was just scared" or "maybe his car was attacked first". And rightly so.
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:26 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Has this kind of "critical thinking" been applied at any time to an ISIS car attack?

No. We never get page after page of people going "maybe he was just scared" or "maybe his car was attacked first". And rightly so.
Since all ISIS attacks are premeditated, are often followed up by direct attacks on unsuspecting members of the public, have never been carried out at a public protest, have been self admitted to be the responsibility of a recognised terrorist group with a clear agenda of terror you seem to be comparing apples with oranges.

That or you are a despicable ISIS apologist.

(no I don't think you are I'm just applying your logic here)
.
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:28 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Since all ISIS attacks are premeditated, are often followed up by direct attacks on unsuspecting members of the public, have never been carried out at a public protest, have been self admitted to be the responsibility of a recognised terrorist group with a clear agenda of terror you seem to be comparing apples with oranges.

That or you are a despicable ISIS apologist.

(no I don't think you are I'm just applying your logic here)
.
My logic says I'm an ISIS apologist when I clearly say it's right to not give the extremist the benefit of doubt?

This attack was just as premeditated as an ISIS attack, and Nazis have a long history of terror attacks in the US, as well as the rest of the world.
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:32 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Has this kind of "critical thinking" been applied at any time to an ISIS car attack?

No. We never get page after page of people going "maybe he was just scared" or "maybe his car was attacked first". And rightly so.
If anything, it strikes me as the sort of garbage "analysis" that led people to conclude that, for example, Philando Castile was a known criminal who had his gun in his lap when he was killed. In the end, we have a car that clearly plowed into an easily visible group of people, and police have apparently identified him as one of the mob whop was filmed shoving police, screaming racial slurs, and some of who were recorded beating a random black guy with metal poles out of pure racial hatred. A trial for murder, among many other charges, is fully justified.
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:35 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
As I said, it's irrelevant. You don't plough a car into a crowd of people. If someone had rammed a crowd of Nazi protesters, my reaction would be the same.
I didn't read the word irrelevant in your response, I'm trying to get at your reasons for stating

Quote:
Informs me who to stay away from...
It looked a little like virtue signalling, so I wanted to find out your motivation for saying it and how you viewed the group that the victims came from you stated that people had called them the "real terrorists who had it coming", I couldn't find anybody who wrote that.

That you don't wish to elaborate is perfectly OK as I can't compel you to.

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Old 20th August 2017, 04:50 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
My logic says I'm an ISIS apologist when I clearly say it's right to not give the extremist the benefit of doubt?
Yes, you are of the opinion that to question the accepted narrative of this event makes one a Nazi apologist. That's what I took from the statement,

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Despicable Nazi terrorist apologetics in this thread.


Quote:
This attack was just as premeditated as an ISIS attack
Are you claiming this individual was working as part of a cell, had worked out in advance where his targets were, had completed intel and surveillance, had rehearsed the attack, had considered escape and exploitation and was taking orders from someone higher up in the organisation?

I can't be sure but it looks very much to me like it was one POS who acted alone, on a spur of the moment urge without remotely considering the potential repercussions.

To suggest that it was part of a pre-planned operation is ridiculous.

Quote:
and Nazis have a long history of terror attacks in the US, as well as the rest of the world.
Quite, but this wasn't one of them.

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Old 20th August 2017, 05:03 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I didn't read the word irrelevant in your response, I'm trying to get at your reasons for stating



It looked a little like virtue signalling, so I wanted to find out your motivation for saying it and how you viewed the group that the victims came from (you stated that people had called them the "real terrorists who had it coming", I couldn't find anybody who wrote that.

That you don't wish to elaborate is perfectly OK as I can't compel you to.
Oh, so you're playing a game of 'gotcha' taking an overly literal reading of my post and trying to catch me on an inconsistency, because you assume I have a certain ideological position? Well, it's a forum tradition I suppose.

I've certainly seen people in this thread make excuses for the driver, and I have seen people imply the protesters were violent thugs who should have expected something like that. I'd prefer not to derail the thread into some kind of navelgazing meta discussion where we dissect posts in order to score points.
If you haven't seen the excuses or accusations I talked about, fair enough.

Now, back to the Nazi protester speeding downhill into a mob of hippies and anarchists.
I don't think he could have ploughed into them by accident. And I think that's bad, even if the people he was trying to murder weren't very nice either.
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Old 20th August 2017, 05:06 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Did you take the ride down the hill with Google StreetView (just go straight forward a couple of blocks)?...
This makes the situation EVEN CLEARER.

There is a STOP sign at the intersection with Jefferson St.
Which means car is supposed to stop there. If he is running the STOP sign at elevated speed, he is on a criminal course of action already.

From that STOP sign, he as a clear, unobstructed view down to where he ended up chosing to become a murderer.

This, or he was driving blind.
But no, the fact that he braked and swerved for an ever so brief moment shows he saw that he was speeding into a crowd. Releasing the brakes immediately means he had resolved at that point to murder.
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