ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , James Alex Fields , protest incidents , racism incidents , terrorism incidents

Reply
Old 20th August 2017, 09:08 AM   #161
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Oh if everyone else is going to be such dishonest and disingenuous jerks then surely i can be one as well?
*nipped army of strawmen rant*
Thanks for admitting to making dishonest and disingenuous posts
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:09 AM   #162
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The issue isn't perceiving it but recalling it afterwards.
The issue is both, plus a couple or three more.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:13 AM   #163
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's literally the dictionary definition.

Nazi Fields fits it because 1. he unlawfully used violence against 2. civilians in order to 3. further his neo-Nazi agenda. It doesn't really matter what he thought he would gain by killing counter-demonstrators. Perhaps he was angry at them because they had the gall to attempt to disrupt his beloved Nazi rally, or perhaps he simply saw them as the enemy and expected to be celebrated as a hero for the cause. Either way suits nicely.
I don't have that dictonary handy. Which dictionary? Or do you claim all dictionaries have the same definition for this highly contentios an politically and emotionally loaded term? That seems highly implausible.
Excuse me that I don't take your word for it.

You can't know the highlighted, therefore, as a skeptic, you should reserve some doubt on those claims.
And no, I don't think your two fantasies fit nicely the description "to further an agenda". Neither of them.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:17 AM   #164
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
You listed premeditation as one of the criteria for terrorism. Do you wish to define premeditation for terrorism as different from premeditation for first-degree murder?
Yes. More ahead-of-time planning and preparation. I know this is a bit fuzzy yet. But you get the picture. Getting angry and mumbling "I gotta kill that bummer" five minutes before the act counts as premeditation for murder, but doesn't quite allow for "planning and preparation" the way a terrorist act is planned and prepared. I'd say there would have to be a temporal disconnect between a cool phase of planning and a hot phase of fighting.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:17 AM   #165
sphenisc
Illuminator
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,626
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I don't have that dictonary handy. Which dictionary? Or do you claim all dictionaries have the same definition for this highly contentios an politically and emotionally loaded term? That seems highly implausible.
Excuse me that I don't take your word for it.

You can't know the highlighted, therefore, as a skeptic, you should reserve some doubt on those claims.
And no, I don't think your two fantasies fit nicely the description "to further an agenda". Neither of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:19 AM   #166
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's absolutely clear that he intended to murder when he got into the car. He went from the ongoing Nazi rally to get his car - not to go home or run some errands - but to go into the center of town where the counter-protesters where. His motive was murder from the time he got in the car.
If you need help locating James Randi's phone number, I can help you for a small share of the expected $1M you'll win with your psychic powers
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:21 AM   #167
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Thanks. Quote:
Originally Posted by WP
There is no universal agreement on the definition of terrorism.[1][2] Various legal systems and government agencies use different definitions. Moreover, governments have been reluctant to formulate an agreed upon and legally binding definition. These difficulties arise from the fact that the term is politically and emotionally charged.
IOW: What I said. Not what uke2se said.
ETA: Especially this bit:
Quote:
  • It reaches more than the immediate target victims and is also directed at targets consisting of a larger spectrum of society.
Seems like I provided something close to this dictionary definition earlier - not uke2se.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

Last edited by Oystein; 20th August 2017 at 09:23 AM.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:23 AM   #168
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I don't have that dictonary handy. Which dictionary? Or do you claim all dictionaries have the same definition for this highly contentios an politically and emotionally loaded term? That seems highly implausible.
Excuse me that I don't take your word for it.
In the age of the internet, you don't need one. Here are some definitions:

The one I used was from Google:

Quote:
Here's one from dictionary.com:

Quote:
Here's Oxford Dictionaries:

Quote:
The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.


Top three on a Google search result.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You can't know the highlighted, therefore, as a skeptic, you should reserve some doubt on those claims.
True, I can't. But I can surmise from what he was (a Nazi), what the victims were (anti-Fascists), the situation (a demonstration against a Nazi rally) and the incident (driving at high speed into a crowd) that his intention was to kill and intimidate his ideological opponents. It's reasonable to assume that he was doing this because he was a Nazi and because the victims were anti-Fascists.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
And no, I don't think your two fantasies fit nicely the description "to further an agenda". Neither of them.
Not really my problem, is it?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:24 AM   #169
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
If you need help locating James Randi's phone number, I can help you for a small share of the expected $1M you'll win with your psychic powers
I don't need psychic powers. All I need is the power of deduction.

Why do you think he left the Nazi rally and got into his car to drive down-town, to where he knew the counter-protesters were? Can you give me a plausible explanation that does not include vehicular murder?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:25 AM   #170
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Thanks. Quote:


IOW: What I said. Not what uke2se said.
ETA: Especially this bit:

Seems like I provided something close to this dictionary definition earlier - not uke2se.
Are you being willfully obtuse? Read the rest of the wiki article.

There's no fully agreed upon definition, but the definition I provided is generally included.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:27 AM   #171
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
...
True, I can't. But I can surmise from what he was (a Nazi), what the victims were (anti-Fascists), the situation (a demonstration against a Nazi rally) and the incident (driving at high speed into a crowd) that his intention was to kill and intimidate his ideological opponents. It's reasonable to assume that he was doing this because he was a Nazi and because the victims were anti-Fascists.
Sure, that's all possible - and I am glad you agreed to what you earlier rejecte: That doubt is in order.

Did you think about whether a "Hooligan" frame of mind also might explain this attack?


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Not really my problem, is it?
Well, no, as long as you are unconcerned that your arguments fail to convince
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:28 AM   #172
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Sure, that's all possible - and I am glad you agreed to what you earlier rejecte: That doubt is in order.

Did you think about whether a "Hooligan" frame of mind also might explain this attack?
Yes, I did and I immediately rejected it. Unless you equate a "hooligan" frame of mind with a "homicidal" frame of mind.


Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Well, no, as long as you are unconcerned that your arguments fail to convince
You. Fails to convince you.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:29 AM   #173
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't need psychic powers. All I need is the power of deduction.

Why do you think he left the Nazi rally and got into his car to drive down-town, to where he knew the counter-protesters were? Can you give me a plausible explanation that does not include vehicular murder?
Amaaaazing, your mind reading powers!

Another explanation might be "he got into his car to go home". But I would be so stupid as to claim publicly that this is the only plausible possibility.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:31 AM   #174
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, I did and I immediately rejected it. Unless you equate a "hooligan" frame of mind with a "homicidal" frame of mind. ...
Yes, indeed I do: Occasionally, hooligans, in pursuit of their weekend hooligan fun entertainment program, kill people. I consider such incidents "murder". Not terrorism.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:32 AM   #175
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,318
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Really? You seem oddly selective and biased to what you see as "unskeptical arguments".
Really? Check out post 70 in this exact thread.


Skeptic tank posted this
Quote:
1.) The damage was done prior to flag man, but there's a photo showing not just that bumper mark but about 4 damage spots on the back of his car. These were likely inflicted by people with weapons in a more sparse gathering up at the top of the hill, where we don't seem to have good video or photos at all.

2.) it's been a known and common tactic to disguise weapons as flags for a while. Seriously. I was aware of this since Berkeley. They bring a pipe or fighting stick and put a flag on it so it isn't confiscated or necessarily immediately recognized as a weapon..

I posted this

Quote:
1) you literally have no evidence for that conclusion.

2) prove it.
The only reason you don't see me hitting this idea more is no one replied.

I would like an apology.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:39 AM   #176
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Amaaaazing, your mind reading powers!

Another explanation might be "he got into his car to go home". But I would be so stupid as to claim publicly that this is the only plausible possibility.
It's not plausible at all, because the Nazis were at McIntyre park at this point. The road home for the Nazi terrorist doesn't lead to Water Street. He would also have seen Water Street blocked as he came down 4th streets at high speed, but instead of turning on East Main Street, which would have been easy to do, he barreled down 4th Street into the protesters on Water Street.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:40 AM   #177
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes, indeed I do: Occasionally, hooligans, in pursuit of their weekend hooligan fun entertainment program, kill people. I consider such incidents "murder". Not terrorism.
With cars? First time I've heard of it, and I've worked extensively with hooligans (of the football kind) in a law enforcement capacity.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:46 AM   #178
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
@uke2se,

ST earlier posted a question that he loaded with literally several paragraphs of strawmen and false analogies, so much that the entire question had to be rejected as vily insencere and poisoned, as is par for the Nazi course.

However, the naked question was, IMO, fair, and it was this:


Suppose on that very same day, some non-violent Nazi swine had been killed by an armed and fighting antifa activist. You can pad this with details as you wish (weapon used...). The only detail I would insist on is that in the present situation, no one attacked the antifa person.

Consider that the antifa person came to Charlottsville because of some political view and intention, came to Charlottesville to express thatr political view and to fight against a political enemy. In short: Had political aims and goals.
And that antifa person killed some Nazi not in self defense.


--->>> Would you call that antifa person a "terrorist"? <<<---


Remember the Google=Oxford definition - I copy what you copied:
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
Surely, the use of violence would have been unlawful, the victim a civilian, and the antifa person in pursuit of political aims.


Now in reality, no antifa person actually killed a Nazi, but they did bring weapons, and did use weapons against Nazis, did they not? That's violence, unlawful, in pursuit of political aims, isn't it?


So by your prefered dictionary definitions, what the militant antifa did throughout that day was terrorism.


I reject this claim. I fully expect you however to agree to it without any ifs and buts.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

Last edited by Oystein; 20th August 2017 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Pointed to key question
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:48 AM   #179
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I clipped all the items of your story that have no parallel to the actual incident or are irrelevant (such as what shirt the driver wore, as this could not be seen behind the shaded windows).

I would vote for intentional homicide. As I previously said, I am not competent to go into the finer details of degrees and murder vs. manlaughter.
The shirt he was wearing can be seen when he was arrested. Please don't be so ignorant as to claim that maybe he changed his shirt after he narrowly escaped being beaten to death by the crowd but before he stopped.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:49 AM   #180
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Of what relevance is the direction of the one-way street? Pedestrians are not obliged to heed that sign, it's for wheeled traffic!
They're obligated to stay off the street completely.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:50 AM   #181
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
@uke2se,

ST earlier posted a question that he loaded with literally several paragraphs of strawmen and false analogies, so much that the entire question had to be rejected as vily insencere and poisoned, as is par for the Nazi course.

However, the naked question was, IMO, fair, and it was this:


Suppose on that very same day, some non-violent Nazi swine had been killed by an armed and fighting antifa activist. You can pad this with details as you wish (weapon used...). The only detail I would insist on is that in the present situation, no one attacked the antifa person.

Consider that the antifa person came to Charlottsville because of some political view and intention, came to Charlottesville to express thatr political view and to fight against a political enemy. In short: Had political aims and goals.
And that antifa person killed some Nazi not in self defense.


--->>> Would you call that antifa person a "terrorist"? <<<---
Depends on the situation. Did he kill a single Nazi in a brawl? Did he use a motor vehicle to run into a crowd of Nazis?

None of it happened, of course. Nazis do this kind of thing. Antifa doesn't.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Remember the Google=Oxford definition - I copy what you copied:
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
Surely, the use of violence would have been unlawful, the victim a civilian, and the antifa person in pursuit of political aims.
As I said, depends on the situation.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Now in reality, no antifa person actually killed a Nazi, but they did bring weapons, and did use weapons against Nazis, did they not? That's violence, unlawful, in pursuit of political aims, isn't it?
Self defense isn't unlawful.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
So by your prefered dictionary definitions, what the militant antifa did on that day was terrorism.
Nope.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I reject this claim. I fully expect you however to agree to it without any ifs and buts.
Nope.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:54 AM   #182
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't see how the intentions of a crowd justify ramming into them with a speeding car.
Unless someone would like to argue that this was the only way to prevent greater harm...
If you're being attacked by a crowd, you are entitled to defend yourself in anyway possible. The video shows he was clearly under attack.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:54 AM   #183
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
I had suggested that he got into his car to go home.
Now you:

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's not plausible at all, because the Nazis were at McIntyre park at this point. The road home for the Nazi terrorist doesn't lead to Water Street.
Mr. Field lives at McIntyre park, that is his home?? Are you serious??

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
He would also have seen Water Street blocked as he came down 4th streets at high speed, but instead of turning on East Main Street, which would have been easy to do, he barreled down 4th Street into the protesters on Water Street.
I fully agree, but what has this got to do at all with the proposition you seek, and fail, to disprove? The proposition was that he got into his car to go home.

Did he see the crowd blocking the street when he got into his car? Because, remember, you had claimed that he had already formed the intention to kill lefties when he got into his car. This was, I think we can agree on this, BEFORE he came down 4th streets at high speed, because he did not get into his car while it came down 4th streets at high speed - or did he, in your strange world?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:57 AM   #184
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I had suggested that he got into his car to go home.
Now you:


Mr. Field lives at McIntyre park, that is his home?? Are you serious??
No. Read for comprehension, please. The Nazis at the rally, of which Fields was a part, had been moved to McIntyre park.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I fully agree, but what has this got to do at all with the proposition you seek, and fail, to disprove? The proposition was that he got into his car to go home.
Explain to me why he went to 4th Street if he was going home, please?

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Did he see the crowd blocking the street when he got into his car?
He knew that's where the counter protesters were when he got into his car.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Because, remember, you had claimed that he had already formed the intention to kill lefties when he got into his car. This was, I think we can agree on this, BEFORE he came down 4th streets at high speed, because he did not get into his car while it came down 4th streets at high speed - or did he, in your strange world?
My strange world?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:57 AM   #185
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Self defense isn't unlawful.
You grossly suck on reading comprehension. I had said: The only detail I would insist on is that in the present situation, no one attacked the antifa person.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nope.
Your double standards are duly noted.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 09:59 AM   #186
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You grossly suck on reading comprehension. I had said: The only detail I would insist on is that in the present situation, no one attacked the antifa person.
Are you asking me if in the hypothetical event that an Antifa person committed a terrorist attack per the definition I gave, would I consider that person a terrorist? The answer is yes. That, however, didn't happen, and wouldn't happen, because Antifa doesn't work that way. Nazis do.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Your double standards are duly noted.
What double standard?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:00 AM   #187
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Has this kind of "critical thinking" been applied at any time to an ISIS car attack?

No. We never get page after page of people going "maybe he was just scared" or "maybe his car was attacked first". And rightly so.
Because with an ISIS attack, it's clear what happened. What happened here is that it clearly was NOT a terrorist attack.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:02 AM   #188
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. Read for comprehension, please. The Nazis at the rally, of which Fields was a part, had been moved to McIntyre park.
No, uke2se, YOU read for comprehension, PLEASE! I had suggested: "he got into his car to go home."
By that, you may be surprised, I actually meant: "he got into his car to go home."
Because I try to stay away from Doublespeak.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Explain to me why he went to 4th Street if he was going home, please?
Why would I need to? I do not have your psychic powers and do not know what he believed was his way home from where he got into his car.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
He knew that's where the counter protesters were when he got into his car.
Again, you speak as if you believed you had psychic powers.

You cannot know what he knew when he got into his car! You are imagining this! Perhaps projecting what YOU would have done in his situation, but I am only guessing here, while you express complete faith and exactitude in your psychic abilities!

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
My strange world?
Yes.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:03 AM   #189
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
My logic says I'm an ISIS apologist when I clearly say it's right to not give the extremist the benefit of doubt?

This attack was just as premeditated as an ISIS attack, and Nazis have a long history of terror attacks in the US, as well as the rest of the world.
It shows no signs of premeditation. And please share this "long history of Nazi terror attacks in the US"
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:03 AM   #190
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 14,849
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
... because Antifa doesn't work that way. Nazis do.

What double standard?
Exactly that double standard.

You look the other way when antifa commit unprovoked acts of violence.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:06 AM   #191
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
No, uke2se, YOU read for comprehension, PLEASE! I had suggested: "he got into his car to go home."
By that, you may be surprised, I actually meant: "he got into his car to go home."
Because I try to stay away from Doublespeak.
I know you said that. I then informed you that he was at McIntyre park, nowhere near Water Street, and that the exits from the city do not lead to Water Street.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Why would I need to? I do not have your psychic powers and do not know what he believed was his way home from where he got into his car.
Because it's essential to your argument. You are saying that it is plausible that he was going home. I asked you why he would take the route through the city, congested with counter-protesters, when the route home was the other way.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Again, you speak as if you believed you had psychic powers.
No, I'm simply using my brain. I would recommend it.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You cannot know what he knew when he got into his car!
I can make a very educated guess, based on the timeline of the day.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You are imagining this!
As in, making it up, no.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Perhaps projecting what YOU would have done in his situation, but I am only guessing here, while you express complete faith and exactitude in your psychic abilities!
Are you claiming that I would have committed an act like this? Really?

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes.
Tell me more of this strange world you imagine I'm in.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:07 AM   #192
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Exactly that double standard.

You look the other way when antifa commit unprovoked acts of violence.
Where have I looked the other way when Antifa commit unprovoked acts of violence? I didn't even do that in your made up hypothetical. Stop lying.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:10 AM   #193
sir drinks-a-lot
Master Poster
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 2,931
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I clipped all the items of your story that have no parallel to the actual incident or are irrelevant (such as what shirt the driver wore, as this could not be seen behind the shaded windows).
And you know this how?
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:10 AM   #194
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,358
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes. More ahead-of-time planning and preparation. I know this is a bit fuzzy yet. But you get the picture. Getting angry and mumbling "I gotta kill that bummer" five minutes before the act counts as premeditation for murder, but doesn't quite allow for "planning and preparation" the way a terrorist act is planned and prepared. I'd say there would have to be a temporal disconnect between a cool phase of planning and a hot phase of fighting.

I disagree. I see no reason why a person with a particular ideology can't see an opportunity to advance that ideology, take that opportunity right then and there, and it not be considered terrorism.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The shirt he was wearing can be seen when he was arrested. Please don't be so ignorant as to claim that maybe he changed his shirt after he narrowly escaped being beaten to death by the crowd but before he stopped.

Mr. Fields fled from the scene in his vehicle and was arrested elsewhere. Also, it's not clear from photos like this that his shirt would have been visible to the counter-protesters as he drove toward them.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If you're being attacked by a crowd, you are entitled to defend yourself in anyway possible. The video shows he was clearly under attack.

No, it doesn't. I've previously posted a link to a video showing two clips of the incident, and Elagabalus posted a link with additional photos. The only "attack" on Mr. Fields came from a kid who hit Mr. Fields' vehicle on the rear bumper with a handheld flag pole. Mr. Fields was already driving at speed toward the crowd when this occurred.

Your analysis is lacking in information, accuracy, and attention.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 20th August 2017 at 10:54 AM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:14 AM   #195
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,435
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
They're obligated to stay off the street completely.
I've seen them smeared as communists, anarchists, and violent thugs, but my god, don't tell me that they were jaywalkers? Horror of horrors! Now we are talking not only justified homocide, but perhaps the driver being given an award.

You talk of demonstrators being in the street as if it was a violation of civilized conduct! Well, virtually all large public events I've ever seen have spilled into the streets at least to some extent. Permits or not. People coming or going. These have ranged from musical festivals to flea sales to political demonstrations. In Charlottesvile the demonstrations as a whole spilled into the streets: both sides. The police anticipate and plan for this and usually try to divert traffic in advance or in response. When it becomes a significant problem the police tell the people to get off the asphalt. It is that simple.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:19 AM   #196
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
What's all this talk about "Nazis?" There were antifa thugs committed to silencing any speech they didn't like with violence and there were people who wanted to preserve a statue.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:21 AM   #197
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,874
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Your analysis is lacking in information, accuracy, and attention honesty.
Fixed that for you. You are talking to a Nazi.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:27 AM   #198
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,435
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If you're being attacked by a crowd, you are entitled to defend yourself in anyway possible. The video shows he was clearly under attack.
Both lies.
The video shows him speeding toward the crowd well before his car bumper was dinged by a stick. He was not under any real attack by anyone, and especially not by the people in the crowd he drove into! One could more easily argue the person hitting the bumper was attempting to protect the crowd by warning the driver of the dangers of his speeding.

Even if under "attack" one is not entitled to defend oneself in anyway possible. If you are driving down a street and a kid hits your bumper with a stick you are not entitled to run over the crowd of people waiting for a bus half a block down. In fact you are not entitled to run over the kid holding the stick. If some people block your car and yell insults at you you are not entitled to pull out a shotgun and start blasting away. You reaction has to be proportional to the "attack."
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:28 AM   #199
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,358
On this page is video of Mr. Fields, in his vehicle and after the incident, fleeing down an unblocked street. You'll notice that the officers in view merely watch him go by without even reaching for their radios. Likely they were not even aware of the incident, which means this video was taken some distance away and (obviously) prior to Mr. Fields' arrest.

Mr. Fields was clearly out of harm's way at that point, with a number of officers in the area, yet he made no attempt to report his alleged near death at the hands of a blood-thirsty mob to authorities.

In fact, there's no indication that he at any point reported the incident himself. It seems he had to be tracked down.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 20th August 2017 at 10:44 AM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:28 AM   #200
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I've seen them smeared as communists, anarchists, and violent thugs, but my god, don't tell me that they were jaywalkers? Horror of horrors! Now we are talking not only justified homocide, but perhaps the driver being given an award.

You talk of demonstrators being in the street as if it was a violation of civilized conduct! Well, virtually all large public events I've ever seen have spilled into the streets at least to some extent. Permits or not. People coming or going. These have ranged from musical festivals to flea sales to political demonstrations. In Charlottesvile the demonstrations as a whole spilled into the streets: both sides. The police anticipate and plan for this and usually try to divert traffic in advance or in response. When it becomes a significant problem the police tell the people to get off the asphalt. It is that simple.
I was replying to the statement that pedestrians can walk in either direction down a one way street. They can....on the sidewalk.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:13 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.