ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , James Alex Fields , protest incidents , racism incidents , terrorism incidents

Reply
Old 20th August 2017, 10:29 AM   #201
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,432
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What's all this talk about "Nazis?" There were antifa thugs committed to silencing any speech they didn't like with violence and there were people who wanted to preserve a statue.
Those white supremacist guys yelling 'blood and soil' and 'the Jews will not replace us' while wearing fascist symbols, waving around Nazi flags, and doing the Hitler salute don't count as Nazis?

And the people being mowed down were the real bad guys?
Porpoise of Life is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:32 AM   #202
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 10,581
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What's all this talk about "Nazis?" There were antifa thugs committed to silencing any speech they didn't like with violence and there were people who wanted to preserve a statue.
Yeah sure, good people chanting "Jews will not replace us" and other vile nazi slogans. Interesting tactic if the goal is to preserve a statue.

Why the weaseling? You flat out support nazis. Own it.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:33 AM   #203
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,731
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What's all this talk about "Nazis?" There were antifa thugs committed to silencing any speech they didn't like with violence and there were people who wanted to preserve a statue.
Do you know the term "jumped the shark?" It refers to an action that loses all of one's already crumbling credibility. I'd say you really cleared the dorsal fin here! Congratulations.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:37 AM   #204
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,417
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What's all this talk about "Nazis?" ...
What else do you call people who design the invitation in Nazi colors and Nazi symbolism, sport Nazi flags, do the Nazi Heils, shout Nazi slogans, and self-identify as proud white supremacists intent on destroying the extant Republic for an ethnically cleansed state based on "blood and soil" ideology?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:41 AM   #205
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,417
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I was replying to the statement that pedestrians can walk in either direction down a one way street. They can....on the sidewalk.
And this being "the wrong direction on a one-way street" has what, exactly, got to do with that argument? Are you saying getting off the sidewalk is inexcusable in a one-way street, but ok elsewhere?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:44 AM   #206
Mumbles
Illuminator
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,763
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I've seen them smeared as communists, anarchists, and violent thugs, but my god, don't tell me that they were jaywalkers? Horror of horrors! Now we are talking not only justified homocide, but perhaps the driver being given an award.

You talk of demonstrators being in the street as if it was a violation of civilized conduct! Well, virtually all large public events I've ever seen have spilled into the streets at least to some extent. Permits or not. People coming or going. These have ranged from musical festivals to flea sales to political demonstrations. In Charlottesvile the demonstrations as a whole spilled into the streets: both sides. The police anticipate and plan for this and usually try to divert traffic in advance or in response. When it becomes a significant problem the police tell the people to get off the asphalt. It is that simple.
Same here. The simple fact is that sidewalks are often entirely inadequate to hold the number of people leaving major events - concerts, holiday celebrations, sports games, major protests.

And in any event, "plow into the people walking in the street" has always been considered a criminal response to this, even when the person isn't a member of a violent, bigoted, planned event.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:47 AM   #207
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,484
Who knew that jaywalking was a capital offense and such an aggressive display that it justifies summary execution (under the guise of "self defense") by average citizens?

I guess I learned something today.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 10:47 AM   #208
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,060
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Do you know the term "jumped the shark?" It refers to an action that loses all of one's already crumbling credibility. I'd say you really cleared the dorsal fin here! Congratulations.
[linguistic aside] That's not what "jumped the shark" means. It means loses all their entertainment value because of running out of new and interesting ideas. It comes from a late season episode of "Happy Days" where Fonzie jumps over a shark. The problem was not that the stunt was implausible or lacked credibility, just that it was boring, and there was nothing left of interest to do with those characters and situations. [/linguistic aside]
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 11:00 AM   #209
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,731
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
[linguistic aside] That's not what "jumped the shark" means. It means loses all their entertainment value because of running out of new and interesting ideas. It comes from a late season episode of "Happy Days" where Fonzie jumps over a shark. The problem was not that the stunt was implausible or lacked credibility, just that it was boring, and there was nothing left of interest to do with those characters and situations. [/linguistic aside]
I know the origin but my interpretation of its original and subsequent use is that the plot device of Fonzie jumping the shark was so ridiculous that it highlighted the show had run out of useful ideas and was exposed as having become a hollow version of what it once was.

We actually agree in that I see that this running out of creative ideas in the show meant it had become very boring. But I see the term in general meaning an excess that marks a point that lays bare the emptiness of the current endeavor and what led up to it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...umpingTheShark

Last edited by Giordano; 20th August 2017 at 11:01 AM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 11:12 AM   #210
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,060
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If you're being attacked by a crowd, you are entitled to defend yourself in anyway possible. The video shows he was clearly under attack.
It's amazing what is "clear" to people seeing these videos.

It's not clear at all to me that he was under attack, although I'm willing to admit the possibility, and listen to evidence. Even if he wasn't literally under attack, he may have perceived some imminent danger. Once again, that isn't evident from the videos, but it must be considered one possibility, and we should be willing to entertain evidence of that sort.

Also, even if he was in fact under attack or in reasonable fear for his safety, he is not allowed to defend himself "in anyway possible". There are limits even then.


What is clear to me from the videos is that a lot of people showed up to that rally armed, creating a very dangerous situation with the possibility of violence. That's very troubling. However, Mr. Fields' actions were his own. He will have to defend himself against the charge that he deliberately killed one person while attempting to kill more. It's up to him (and his lawyers) to mount such a defense, and he should be given the opportunity to do so in court. It seems like a tough sell.
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 02:04 PM   #211
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,878
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Thanks for posting that. I just "took the ride".

It still seems to me like he had plenty of time. If he were driving completely recklessly AND got distracted by something, maybe. It still seems a bit far fetched.

I can easily imagine how he starts at the stop sign before the traffic lights, tries to catch green and then "falls" down confronted with something that was hidden through topography before.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Of course, sometimes people "freeze" and make absolutely no decision in a life threatening situation. It's the "deer in the headlights" reaction. Maybe he sees the hostile crowd, and it invokes a "fight or flight" reaction, and his mind can't choose between the two. The instinct screams "fight", while the rational mind is saying "flight", and the result is paralysis, and he slams into the crowd.

That's what I think we see in the video of him passing while landing from the little jump over the pedestrian road "step". We hear "landing" sounds from the chassis and the tires but no engine. I don't think we see accelerating to do more harm (or serious braking), we see "freezing" after already having lost partial control.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For what it's worth, there were two phases of the incident. There was his ramming into the crowd while going forward, and his running into people going backward. I think any prosecution will have to be based on his actions moving forward, because by the time he throws it into reverse, his life is clearly in danger.

Absolutely.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 20th August 2017 at 02:18 PM.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 02:09 PM   #212
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,878
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's amazing what is "clear" to people seeing these videos.

It's not clear at all to me that he was under attack, although I'm willing to admit the possibility, and listen to evidence. Even if he wasn't literally under attack, he may have perceived some imminent danger. Once again, that isn't evident from the videos, but it must be considered one possibility, and we should be willing to entertain evidence of that sort.

Also, even if he was in fact under attack or in reasonable fear for his safety, he is not allowed to defend himself "in anyway possible". There are limits even then.

I think it's obvious from the videos that he was nowhere near the demo before he approached, so these "under attack" postulations are totally unfounded. (He could of course have been under real or perceived attack earlier in the story, up the hill, but that is pure speculation)

It was either an accident or what you call road rage, a spontaneous decision to commit mass murder. My money is as I reasoned on the former, but the latter is also a possible option.

For a planned attack he would have to know of the "rogue" demo and how to hit it down at the corner where it just turned around. Which is next to impossible.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 20th August 2017 at 02:14 PM.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 02:47 PM   #213
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,484
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I don't think we see accelerating...

You can argue whether or not acceleration is visible in this clip (it is to me), but it is audible.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:14 PM   #214
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,878
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
You can argue whether or not acceleration is visible in this clip (it is to me), but it is audible.

That's the same as clip 2 in the compilation, but with much better video and audio quality. You're right, it's clearly audible, and after comparing it's audible in the lower quality clip as well if one knows what to listen for. It also looks more like it. So I guess with that I'm switching to road rage, at least "last second" road rage. The approach could still be like I theorized, that he "stumbled" into it, but it's less likely now and the last step is clearly intentional.

See how easy that is? I went back and saw that you came up with this already while I was composing my detailed post. Had you actually followed what I had written instead of calling me a Nazi enabler or something, following up on your earlier ridiculous slander of other posters, you could have easily refuted my observation back then with your counter-evidence at hand.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 20th August 2017 at 03:28 PM. Reason: clarify switch of stance
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:28 PM   #215
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 565
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Those white supremacist guys yelling 'blood and soil' and 'the Jews will not replace us' while wearing fascist symbols, waving around Nazi flags, and doing the Hitler salute don't count as Nazis?

And the people being mowed down were the real bad guys?
A few swastikas doesn't make everybody protesting a "Nazi" any more than a few hammer and sickles make all the counter-protestors "Commies."
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:36 PM   #216
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 565
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Those white supremacist guys yelling 'blood and soil' and 'the Jews will not replace us' while wearing fascist symbols, waving around Nazi flags, and doing the Hitler salute don't count as Nazis?

And the people being mowed down were the real bad guys?
Yes and No. The people injured by the car moving forward are not necessarily the bad guys. Some were, some weren't. The people who were injured when the car went in reverse were definitely bad guys. They rushed the vehicle and began attacking it, clearly intending harm to the driver of the vehicle
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:37 PM   #217
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,417
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
For a planned attack he would have to know of the "rogue" demo and how to hit it down at the corner where it just turned around. Which is easily next to impossible.
FTFY.

It wasn't exactly difficult to find protestors in Charlottesville that day. Not at all. You drive around a bit within 2 blocks of the two main locations (the parks), und you were absolutely 100% guaranteed to find them.

Just as it is conceivable, as you pointed out, that perhaps he had already encountered confrontation and threats before driving into the recorded scene, it is easily conceivable that he had driven around town searching for a group of liberals to mow down.

Next to impossible?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:38 PM   #218
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 565
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
And this being "the wrong direction on a one-way street" has what, exactly, got to do with that argument? Are you saying getting off the sidewalk is inexcusable in a one-way street, but ok elsewhere?
My God you have trouble with reading comprehension.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:43 PM   #219
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,417
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
My God you have trouble with reading comprehension.
Thanks for communicating clearly that there was no sense in what you wrote (otherwise, you'd be able to explain)
(Oh, and you can call me "Oystein" next time, or simply "Oy")
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:45 PM   #220
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,484
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
See how easy that is? I went back and saw that you came up with this already while I was composing my detailed post. Had you actually followed what I had written instead of calling me a Nazi enabler or something, following up on your earlier ridiculous slander of other posters, you could have easily refuted my observation back then with your counter-evidence at hand.

It's not my burden to make sure you're informed of my postings. That you missed my note of the audible acceleration for nearly 4 pages is on you.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 20th August 2017 at 03:51 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:48 PM   #221
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,484
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Yes and No. The people injured by the car moving forward are not necessarily the bad guys. Some were, some weren't.

Those who were "the bad guys", what would they have been guilty of? ETA: And by what authority was Mr. Fields justified in running them down? As we've seen, he was under no apparent or immediate personal threat from the crowd.

Quote:
The people who were injured when the car went in reverse were definitely bad guys. They rushed the vehicle and began attacking it, clearly intending harm to the driver of the vehicle

Or... they were rushing toward the scene of terrible incident in order to render aid and were not expecting Mr. Fields to back over them.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 20th August 2017 at 04:03 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:50 PM   #222
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,878
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
You may be confusing me with others, but I linked to that video and made note of the audible acceleration way back on page 2:

Yes, that's five posts before

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
edit: oh, that was premature, stay tuned...
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:52 PM   #223
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,484
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yes, that's five posts before

Yeah, I misread that part of your post and edited mine to read, "It's not my burden to make sure you're informed of my postings. That you missed my note of the audible acceleration for nearly 4 pages is on you."

Don't get fussy with me because you wasted a lot of time and effort.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 03:58 PM   #224
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,878
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Yeah, I misread that part of your post and edited mine to read, "It's not my burden to make sure you're informed of my postings. That you missed my note of the audible acceleration for nearly 4 pages is on you."

Don't get fussy with me because you wasted a lot of time and effort.

I didn't waste any time and effort. I like doing things like this (not least because I'm fabulous at them), and myself and those who followed and understood what I presented learned a lot about the incident.

I got "fussy" with you because of your knee-jerk ideology-driven reactions early in the thread.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 20th August 2017 at 04:00 PM.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 04:29 PM   #225
CaptainHowdy
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 565
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's amazing what is "clear" to people seeing these videos.

It's not clear at all to me that he was under attack, although I'm willing to admit the possibility, and listen to evidence. Even if he wasn't literally under attack, he may have perceived some imminent danger. Once again, that isn't evident from the videos, but it must be considered one possibility, and we should be willing to entertain evidence of that sort.

Also, even if he was in fact under attack or in reasonable fear for his safety, he is not allowed to defend himself "in anyway possible". There are limits even then.


What is clear to me from the videos is that a lot of people showed up to that rally armed, creating a very dangerous situation with the possibility of violence. That's very troubling. However, Mr. Fields' actions were his own. He will have to defend himself against the charge that he deliberately killed one person while attempting to kill more. It's up to him (and his lawyers) to mount such a defense, and he should be given the opportunity to do so in court. It seems like a tough sell.
From this video you can see a group of men rush the vehicle from the rear after it has come to a stop and begin attacking it from different angles. At that point, Mr. Fields was under attack and reasonably feared for his life. And he is allowed to defend himself in any way possible until he is no longer in reasonable fear for his life. That much is clear to me.

I don't know what happened prior to what we've see on video. We do know that the PD forced the alt-right to disperse into smaller and smaller groups and refused to protect them from a large, well-armed mob of antifa chimping out as they left the park. I know how antifa conduct themselves at public gatherings like this. It's definitely possible that Mr. Fields had already been attacked and was trying to flee when the accident occurred. This scenario is much more plausible than the idea that this was a deliberate terrorist attack.

The reason that I doubt the deliberate terrorist attack narrative is that, if that is what it was, the authorities would have some evidence of that and the media would be shouting it from the mountaintops. The longer we go without the media telling us that this is a confirmed terrorist attack and providing us with evidence to support that conclusion, the more likely it is that it wasn't.

I predict that this story will slowly slip out of the spotlight when it becomes clear that it doesn't support the "alt right are all nazi terroristic murderers" narrative.

Kind of like what happened to that crazy Bernie supporter who yelled mean things at those muslim teenagers and then stabbed two people up in Oregon.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 05:04 PM   #226
Cl1mh4224rd
Philosopher
 
Cl1mh4224rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,484
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And he is allowed to defend himself in any way possible until he is no longer in reasonable fear for his life.

He deliberately drove into a crowd of people, killing one and injuring up to 19 others. He has committed a crime. He is not innocent of further death and injury he may cause while attempting to flee the scene of that crime and the people he's angered in the commission of that crime.

If he, even accidentally, shot several people, he is not justified in shooting even more people in his escape.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 20th August 2017 at 05:15 PM.
Cl1mh4224rd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:35 PM   #227
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,016
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
He deliberately drove into a crowd of people, killing one and injuring up to 19 others. He has committed a crime. He is not innocent of further death and injury he may cause while attempting to flee the scene of that crime and the people he's angered in the commission of that crime.

If he, even accidentally, shot several people, he is not justified in shooting even more people in his escape.
Hmmm...not sure sure about that. Was he acting in self defense when he drove in reverse over the group?

Another thing to think about is whether or not the group would have attacked the car if he hadn't just used it to ram into the crowd. I'm guessing probably not.
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:37 PM   #228
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,016
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I predict that this story will slowly slip out of the spotlight when it becomes clear that it doesn't support the "alt right are all nazi terroristic murderers" narrative.
Yes, I think that narrative has become a little less clear, at least. If things continue as they are, I think they will definitely start to become more violent.
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:41 PM   #229
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,773
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
A few swastikas doesn't make everybody protesting a "Nazi" any more than a few hammer and sickles make all the counter-protestors "Commies."
I love how the narrative has become that it is not unusual to find people who aren't white nationalists at a white nationalist rally.

Imagine if this had been an ISIS rally. Not only would exactly zero of these people be making the same argument, but any violence visited upon attendees of an ISIS rally by counter protesters would be celebrated.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:41 PM   #230
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,060
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
He deliberately drove into a crowd of people, killing one and injuring up to 19 others. He has committed a crime. He is not innocent of further death and injury he may cause while attempting to flee the scene of that crime and the people he's angered in the commission of that crime.

If he, even accidentally, shot several people, he is not justified in shooting even more people in his escape.
Does anyone happen to really know the law as it actually applies here? What I'm referring to is the idea of justified actions taken as self defense after a crime has been committed.

In this case, he appears to have committed some sort of crime by ramming the crowd. We'll let the jury and/or plea bargainers decide, but it appears that way. Then, he is attacked by the crowd. He isn't merely trying to escape, as in trying to evade capture. He has a reasonable fear for his life at that point. Under those circumstances, can someone claim self defense?

To separate the question from the particulars of this specific incident, let's take a hypothetical. A burglar breaks into a home he thinks is empty, only to discover that a woman is in the house. She sees him, and dives for her cell phone, presumably to call 911. He shoots her, and she dies. At that point, the woman's husband comes home, and sees the burglar and his dead wife. Enraged, he attacks the burglar, and puts his hands on the burglar's throat. He clearly intends to kill the burglar. The burglar finds the gun, and shoots the man dead.

Has he committed one murder, or two?

I think, generally, that all deaths that are the result of a crime are the criminal's responsibility, so that would mean two murders. However, technically, the assault on the burglar by the husband was, itself, a crime, even if no jury would convict the guy.

Now, back to Charlottesville. The driver committed a crime by running into the crowd, but the people who set upon his car with baseball bats committed a crime by doing so. Can the guy claim self defense for any assault committed while attempting to flee from those attackers? Or has he lost the right to such a claim because the assault was a consequence of the driver's crime of running into the crowd?

To my way of thinking, it looks like the only people assaulted by the car while it was going in reverse were people who were attacking the car, and it sure looks to me like they were presenting a deadly threat to the driver. Therefore, he is justified in reversing the car, even if it poses a threat to the attackers. I'm just not sure what the law says about it.
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 20th August 2017 at 06:45 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:50 PM   #231
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,269
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post

To my way of thinking, it looks like the only people assaulted by the car while it was going in reverse were people who were attacking the car, and it sure looks to me like they were presenting a deadly threat to the driver. Therefore, he is justified in reversing the car, even if it poses a threat to the attackers. I'm just not sure what the law says about it.
It isn't an easy answer to Google. If we were to classify it as self defense that injured bystanders, this would be at the junction of a bunch of issues.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:53 PM   #232
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,211
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Don't intentionally drive into a crowd of baseball bat wielding protesters and kill one of them?
This. It's not like he was on the way to the grocery store and was suddenly surrounded. He drove towards the protesters. Did he think they would just let him drive through them without causing a reaction?
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:57 PM   #233
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,773
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yes, I think that narrative has become a little less clear, at least. If things continue as they are, I think they will definitely start to become more violent.
They already killed one person and sent several more to the hospital. I'm not sure how much more violent these right wing hate groups can get.

Maybe next time you attend one of their rallies - which I'm told is a perfectly normal thing to do - you can ask them what their plans are.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 06:58 PM   #234
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,514
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
At that point, Mr. Fields was under attack and reasonably feared for his life. And he is allowed to defend himself in any way possible until he is no longer in reasonable fear for his life. That much is clear to me.
Having committed several felonies in front of numerous witnesses, those who swarmed the car were justified in using any amount of force, including lethal force, to subdue this assailant IMO.

I'm no fan of violent lefties and indeed, I see them as nothing more than spoiled overgrown children who think smashing things and shouting down people they don't like is acceptable behavior. From my experience, they're mostly from well-off families and believe adversity is having to make do with last year's iPhone because mother hasn't gotten around to buying them the latest one. That bitch.

That said, I wouldn't have given a **** if they ripped that nazi out of his car, tore him limb from from, arranging the pieces in a swastika as an impromptu memorial.
__________________

Last edited by AJM8125; 20th August 2017 at 07:24 PM.
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 07:28 PM   #235
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,016
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
They already killed one person and sent several more to the hospital. I'm not sure how much more violent these right wing hate groups can get.
Yes, I know. But that was one guy, and it's still not clear what happened. Even if we for the sake of argument assume that he deliberately was trying to kill as many as possible, it's still one guy. I'm not aware of too many incidents with white nationalists showing up and attacking people. Are you? I think that currently, that is more of the SOP of Antifa/BML/BAMN.
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 07:30 PM   #236
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 10,886
Two. You don't get to claim self-defense when your illegal harming of someone causes someone or ones to prevent you from doing further harm.
If you walk up and punch someone in the face, you can't claim self defense in shooting him because he punches back.

Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 07:37 PM   #237
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,337
Anyone that thinks that the driver was scared or something needs to explain these two images and in particular the people and signs I have highlighted.





It's pretty clear that the car was well and truly inside the group of protesters before it was struck.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.

Last edited by PhantomWolf; 20th August 2017 at 07:40 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 07:45 PM   #238
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,269
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Anyone that thinks that the driver was scared or something needs to explain these two images and in particular the people and signs I have highlighted.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...a46b28de7a.jpg

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...a46b2c0793.jpg

It's pretty clear that the car was well and truly inside the group of protesters before it was struck.
I would be terrified if someone struck my car with a stick.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 07:53 PM   #239
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,934
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
This. It's not like he was on the way to the grocery store and was suddenly surrounded. He drove towards the protesters. Did he think they would just let him drive through them without causing a reaction?
White Nationalist Chris Cantwell said the counterprotesters were too stupid to get out of the way. (Saw this on an excerpt of the Vice documentary shown on Meet the Press.)
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2017, 07:59 PM   #240
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,337
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would be terrified if someone struck my car with a stick.
Except in this case the person that struck the car with the stick had just avoided being run over by the driver, as evidenced by his position in the first image. Along with the fact that the dar was already well into the group of protesters when it got hit, was all that because he was scared of future things?
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:12 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.