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Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , James Alex Fields , protest incidents , racism incidents , terrorism incidents

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Old 20th August 2017, 08:03 PM   #241
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
This. It's not like he was on the way to the grocery store and was suddenly surrounded. He drove towards the protesters. Did he think they would just let him drive through them without causing a reaction?
George Zimmerman took similarly inflaming actions and it did not ultimately turn in a guilty verdict.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:06 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except in this case the person that struck the car with the stick had just avoided being run over by the driver, as evidenced by his position in the first image. Along with the fact that the dar was already well into the group of protesters when it got hit, was all that because he was scared of future things?
None of that was the element I was responding to. Based on those photos, the strike certainly wasn't justified in hitting the car.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:14 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
None of that was the element I was responding to. Based on those photos, the strike certainly wasn't justified in hitting the car.
You seriously believe that having a car nearly run you down as it heads at speed through a group of people doesn't justify hitting it to try and get the driver's attention and stop it?
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:16 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You seriously believe that having a car nearly run you down as it heads at speed through a group of people doesn't justify hitting it to try and get the driver's attention and stop it?
No.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:19 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No.
All I can say is wow.....
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:22 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
All I can say is wow.....
Someone doesn't agree with you on what generic actions are justified or necessarily the same meaning of justified. Oh the horror.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:27 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Someone doesn't agree with you on what generic actions are justified or necessarily the same meaning of justified. Oh the horror.
Sorry, but I have to second PhantomWolf on this one, Bob. Your (always) explicitly contrarian remarks do not an argument make.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:29 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Sorry, but I have to second PhantomWolf on this one, Bob. Your (always) explicitly contrarian remarks do not an argument make.
I'm not making an argument. I was asked what I believe. I did not assert others should believe it or feel the same way.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:29 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except in this case the person that struck the car with the stick had just avoided being run over by the driver, as evidenced by his position in the first image. Along with the fact that the dar was already well into the group of protesters when it got hit, was all that because he was scared of future things?
A scare apparently not shared by the protesters standing casually in the front of the car.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:31 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Someone doesn't agree with you on what generic actions are justified or necessarily the same meaning of justified. Oh the horror.
When we are talking split second reactions to try and save people's lives, the idea of doing nothing is the most heinous of them. Hitting a car that's just tried to run you down and about to do the same to others, not, that's fully justified,as much as punching out a guy with a gun that just took a shot at you.

The driver is done, those photos will be the thing that convicts. He clearly braked as he entered the area with the protesters even as they scattered. He could have stopped, changed his mind, but that second one and the video shows that he didn't. He wasn't scared because someone hit his car, the person that hit his car was one of his victims, one of the people he tried to run over, that strike was self defence and defence of others, fully justified.

That he braked, and then accelerated into the protesters. Nothing will get him off that and anyone defending that sort of action needs to check themselves in the mirror.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:31 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
A scare apparently not shared by the protesters standing casually in the front of the car.
That is not an emotional state you can glean from that picture.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:33 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
A scare apparently not shared by the protesters standing casually in the front of the car.
I think you need to recheck that, Those that haven't moved aren't "standing there casually" they simply haven't reacted to what they are seeing yet, note the ones closest that have had the time to react and the people on the sidewalks with their mouths open in horror at what they are seeing.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:34 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
those photos will be the thing that convicts.
Do you want to bet on that? It would be risky. Even if he is convicted, you still lose if the photos are not the things that do it (i.e., they find a video statement made by the killer).

Video also won't count. It has to be those two pictures.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:36 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you want to bet on that? It would be risky. Even if he is convicted, you still lose if the photos are not the things that do it (i.e., they find a video statement made by the killer).

Video also won't count. It has to be those two pictures.
Considering that no one will ever know what the jury used, it'd be pretty pointless.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:40 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Considering that no one will ever know what the jury used, it'd be pretty pointless.
You are not confident that you would win even under those limitations? I wouldn't be either.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:45 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
When we are talking split second reactions to try and save people's lives, the idea of doing nothing is the most heinous of them. Hitting a car that's just tried to run you down and about to do the same to others, not, that's fully justified,as much as punching out a guy with a gun that just took a shot at you.

The driver is done, those photos will be the thing that convicts. He clearly braked as he entered the area with the protesters even as they scattered. He could have stopped, changed his mind, but that second one and the video shows that he didn't. He wasn't scared because someone hit his car, the person that hit his car was one of his victims, one of the people he tried to run over, that strike was self defence and defence of others, fully justified.

That he braked, and then accelerated into the protesters. Nothing will get him off that and anyone defending that sort of action needs to check themselves in the mirror.
You are mixing things up. The question was what I think is justified. Instead, you are arguing what you think is justified and unrelated legal issues.
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Old 20th August 2017, 08:53 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yes, I know. But that was one guy, and it's still not clear what happened. Even if we for the sake of argument assume that he deliberately was trying to kill as many as possible, it's still one guy. I'm not aware of too many incidents with white nationalists showing up and attacking people. Are you? I think that currently, that is more of the SOP of Antifa/BML/BAMN.

Well, no, not really.
Quote:
Over the past 10 years (2007-2016), domestic extremists of all kinds have killed at least 372 people in the United States. Of those deaths, approximately 74% were at the hands of right-wing extremists, about 24% of the victims were killed by domestic Islamic extremists, and the remainder were killed by left-wing extremists.
Black Nationalists have in recent years had move a presence, and the increased acceptance of violence on the far-left is very problematic (eventually this will lead to them killing someone), it is abjectly dwarfed by the violence the far right has been engaging in for more than thirty years. It isn't until you go back to 1970 that far left groups had significant violence.

But yes, the left might someday get a quarter as violent as the right, and that's bad. (Unless it happens because of a significant decrease in violence by far-right groups, then it's good of course.)
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Old 20th August 2017, 09:01 PM   #258
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I wonder if the slowed/stopped cars were occupied and if so, what the occupants were feeling at that intersection while slowed/stopped and what they observed the protesters doing around them before the ramming began.
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Old 20th August 2017, 09:02 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
A few swastikas doesn't make everybody protesting a "Nazi" any more than a few hammer and sickles make all the counter-protestors "Commies."
How would you identify Nazis?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post

I predict that this story will slowly slip out of the spotlight when it becomes clear that it doesn't support the "alt right are all nazi terroristic murderers" narrative.

Kind of like what happened to that crazy Bernie supporter who yelled mean things at those muslim teenagers and then stabbed two people up in Oregon.
Oh, your characterization of that is simply way off the mark. He's a white supremacist doing Nazi salutes too. He is also all kinds of crazy, many of his rants and actions contradicting each other.
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Old 20th August 2017, 09:11 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
How would you identify Nazis?.
Advocating the ideas of national socialism.
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Old 20th August 2017, 09:27 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Black Nationalists have in recent years had move a presence, and the increased acceptance of violence on the far-left is very problematic (eventually this will lead to them killing someone), it is abjectly dwarfed by the violence the far right has been engaging in for more than thirty years. It isn't until you go back to 1970 that far left groups had significant violence.
I'd argue that this has already happened - I believe that we've had three former military black nationalists who have made internet videos rejecting the BLM nonviolent route and calling for violence, and then went out and assassinated police. that's last year's attacks in Dallas and Baton Rouge, and this weekend's in Florida.

We're also wildly undercounting the white supremacist violence numbers - the guy who drove from Bmore to NYC to kill a homeless black guy, the guy that shot two Indian immigrants, the guy that killed two people in..was it Seattle? - when they stepped up to stop him from tormenting a muslim woman on a train, and on and on.Last Weekend only served to show that this sort of random white supremacist violence is at the heart of the so-called "Alt-Right".

(Oh, and CaptainHowdy - I saw that little "chimping out" racist reference in post #225. Did that phrase bring back old memories for you?)
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Old 20th August 2017, 09:33 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
...the guy that killed two people in..was it Seattle? ...
Portland.
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Old 20th August 2017, 09:38 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
George Zimmerman took similarly inflaming actions and it did not ultimately turn in a guilty verdict.
Yes, but that was in Florida, and Florida law is obviously stupid. I'm not at all certain that Virginia will be so kind towards violent racist white people.

(And thank you, Trebuchet. Yeah, it was Portland)
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Old 20th August 2017, 09:38 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
White Nationalist Chris Cantwell said the counterprotesters were too stupid to get out of the way. (Saw this on an excerpt of the Vice documentary shown on Meet the Press.)
Yeah, I saw it too. [Rule 12] that guy.
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Old 20th August 2017, 10:13 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I love how the narrative has become that it is not unusual to find people who aren't white nationalists at a white nationalist rally.

Imagine if this had been an ISIS rally. Not only would exactly zero of these people be making the same argument, but any violence visited upon attendees of an ISIS rally by counter protesters would be celebrated.
Of course you're going to find White Nationalists at a White Nationalist rally! What else would you expect? I think I figured out your problem--you're conflating White Nationalists with White supremacists and Nazis. Somehow you got the idea in your head that European Christians wanting to preserve a culture in which they find value and meaning is European Christian supremacism. That having strong borders and domestic policies designed to prevent assimilation and intermarriage with non-European Christians is bigotry or racism.

White Nationalists are not racists or bigots. They're analogous to Zionists. Zionists believe that the Jewish people realize their full potential when living in a Jewish ethnostate. White Nationalists recognize that the same is true for European Christians. Nobody criticizes Israel for their policies toward non-Jewish citizens. Nobody says Jews are racists or bigot because their religion strongly discourages assimilation or intermarriage with gentiles. You'd have to be a true schizophrenic unable to function in society to believe that Zionism is acceptable but White Nationalism isn't.
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Old 20th August 2017, 10:17 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Of course you're going to find White Nationalists at a White Nationalist rally! What else would you expect? I think I figured out your problem--you're conflating White Nationalists with White supremacists and Nazis. Somehow you got the idea in your head that European Christians wanting to preserve a culture in which they find value and meaning is European Christian supremacism. That having strong borders and domestic policies designed to prevent assimilation and intermarriage with non-European Christians is bigotry or racism.

White Nationalists are not racists or bigots. They're analogous to Zionists. Zionists believe that the Jewish people realize their full potential when living in a Jewish ethnostate. White Nationalists recognize that the same is true for European Christians. Nobody criticizes Israel for their policies toward non-Jewish citizens. Nobody says Jews are racists or bigot because their religion strongly discourages assimilation or intermarriage with gentiles. You'd have to be a true schizophrenic unable to function in society to believe that Zionism is acceptable but White Nationalism isn't.
Nobody criticizes Israel????!!!!!! Someone pass the Digitalis; my face is freezing over.

I can find you four dozen (((people))) just on my old Rolodex who criticize the Israeli government for its policies towards the non-Jewish population. I'd be willing to bet on this board full of self-styled critics and questioners of EVERYTHING, we'd find a few dozen more.
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Old 20th August 2017, 10:25 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
I wonder if the slowed/stopped cars were occupied and if so, what the occupants were feeling at that intersection while slowed/stopped and what they observed the protesters doing around them before the ramming began.
I have wondered that as well. A reporter who was filming at the time of the incident said that one of the cars was occupied. Who were the people in the cars? Why was there a crowd gathered around them?
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Old 20th August 2017, 10:34 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'd argue that this has already happened - I believe that we've had three former military black nationalists who have made internet videos rejecting the BLM nonviolent route and calling for violence, and then went out and assassinated police. that's last year's attacks in Dallas and Baton Rouge, and this weekend's in Florida.

We're also wildly undercounting the white supremacist violence numbers - the guy who drove from Bmore to NYC to kill a homeless black guy, the guy that shot two Indian immigrants, the guy that killed two people in..was it Seattle? - when they stepped up to stop him from tormenting a muslim woman on a train, and on and on.Last Weekend only served to show that this sort of random white supremacist violence is at the heart of the so-called "Alt-Right".

(Oh, and CaptainHowdy - I saw that little "chimping out" racist reference in post #225. Did that phrase bring back old memories for you?)
"Chimp" is a word used for Holocaust Deniers in the conspiracy forum. Chimping out is a word that describes the way they sound when they're defending their beliefs. Spend some time there and you'll see what I mean. Any racism you see there is in your head.
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Old 20th August 2017, 11:04 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
"Chimp" is a word used for Holocaust Deniers in the conspiracy forum. Chimping out is a word that describes the way they sound when they're defending their beliefs. Spend some time there and you'll see what I mean. Any racism you see there is in your head.
In own head? Google "chimping out", I dare you.
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Old 20th August 2017, 11:05 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Nobody criticizes Israel for their policies toward non-Jewish citizens. Nobody says Jews are racists or bigot because their religion strongly discourages assimilation or intermarriage with gentiles.
A lot of people do criticize them for it.
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Old 21st August 2017, 12:15 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In own head? Google "chimping out", I dare you.
Ih, don't worry, I totally buy his explanation that the guys who were protesting against the pseudo-nazis that had invaded their town were all Holocaust deniers.

I also sent my banking info to a Nigerian Finance Minister, and bought the Golden Gate Bridge.
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Old 21st August 2017, 08:22 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Nobody criticizes Israel????!!!!!! Someone pass the Digitalis; my face is freezing over.

I can find you four dozen (((people))) just on my old Rolodex who criticize the Israeli government for its policies towards the non-Jewish population. I'd be willing to bet on this board full of self-styled critics and questioners of EVERYTHING, we'd find a few dozen more.
Antisemites criticize Israel. I shouldn't need to say it, but, the opinion of anrisemites don't count.

Find me ONE person who is not antisemitic who says that anybody who supports Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state is a racist Judeosupremecist
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Old 21st August 2017, 08:57 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
...
Now, back to Charlottesville. The driver committed a crime by running into the crowd, but the people who set upon his car with baseball bats committed a crime by doing so. ...
Did they?
The murderer was still in possesion of the weapen he used only seconds ago to actually murder, and the assumption that he will continue to use this weapon to further murder is surely more justified than the opposite assumption that the victims are no going to kill him.
The crowd would have legitimate reasons a) to defend against further crimes and b) attempt to arrest the murderer.
They used sticks and bats against the murder weapon.
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:03 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Antisemites criticize Israel. I shouldn't need to say it, but, the opinion of anrisemites don't count.

Find me ONE person who is not antisemitic who says that anybody who supports Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state is a racist Judeosupremecist
It is racist judeosupremecist.

There you go.
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:43 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Did they?
The murderer was still in possesion of the weapen he used only seconds ago to actually murder, and the assumption that he will continue to use this weapon to further murder is surely more justified than the opposite assumption that the victims are no going to kill him.
The crowd would have legitimate reasons a) to defend against further crimes and b) attempt to arrest the murderer.
They used sticks and bats against the murder weapon.
You might be right. Their actions could be seen as preventing further attack. At least, they could probably get to reasonable doubt that way.

I must admit, though, I found it disturbing, not that they set upon the car under such circumstances, but that they happened to have baseball bats handy.
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:53 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You might be right. Their actions could be seen as preventing further attack. At least, they could probably get to reasonable doubt that way.

I must admit, though, I found it disturbing, not that they set upon the car under such circumstances, but that they happened to have baseball bats handy.
This is why information from the occupants of the impeded cars is important. Were the counter-protesters already attacking cars? If there were Antifa among the group in the intersection then it is very possible since indiscriminate collateral property damage is not beneath them (recent Berkeley protests, for example). This knowledge may or may not help the crowd attacker's defense but it would lend credibility to the idea of bad people on both sides.

Last edited by Scopedog; 21st August 2017 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:24 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Scopedog View Post
This is why information from the occupants of the impeded cars is important. Were the counter-protesters already attacking cars? If there were Antifa among the group in the intersection then it is very possible since indiscriminate collateral property damage is not beneath them (recent Berkeley protests, for example). This knowledge may or may not help the crowd attacker's defense but it would lend credibility to the idea of bad people on both sides.
It's a bit early to go all truther on this. At least wait until there's a Jew to blame.
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Old 21st August 2017, 06:24 PM   #278
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Somebody asked earlier in the thread if there were hammer and sickle flags at the rally and I am not aware of any, but I learned about another flag today:
http://store.iww.org/iww-globe-flag.html

The preamble to the Industrial Workers of the World constitution includes the following:
https://www.iww.org/culture/official/preamble.shtml

"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life.

Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the Earth."

In this picture of the crash site (with a black and red anarcho-communist flag prominently displayed at bottom center) we can see at least three IWW flags:
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/ad8...car-attack.jpg

I have no idea if IWW is associated with Antifa and I have no idea if IWW is a violent protest group. I had never heard of IWW until today. None of the people at the intersection deserved to die.
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Old 21st August 2017, 07:37 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Huh? What does this have to do with the SOP of Antifa, BAMN, etc.?
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Old 21st August 2017, 07:55 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Advocating the ideas of national socialism.
Thanks, but I was curious how CaptainHowdy would. I was pretty confident about what your answer would be (I was roughly correct).

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'd argue that this has already happened - I believe that we've had three former military black nationalists who have made internet videos rejecting the BLM nonviolent route and calling for violence, and then went out and assassinated police. that's last year's attacks in Dallas and Baton Rouge, and this weekend's in Florida.

We're also wildly undercounting the white supremacist violence numbers - the guy who drove from Bmore to NYC to kill a homeless black guy, the guy that shot two Indian immigrants, the guy that killed two people in..was it Seattle? - when they stepped up to stop him from tormenting a muslim woman on a train, and on and on.Last Weekend only served to show that this sort of random white supremacist violence is at the heart of the so-called "Alt-Right".

(Oh, and CaptainHowdy - I saw that little "chimping out" racist reference in post #225. Did that phrase bring back old memories for you?)
Oh, I meant the far-left groups, not the black nationalists groups. I know that sometimes it's confusing for people on the left and right, but Muslim and black nationalist terror and/or hate groups aren't far-left groups (normally). There is also the issue of why to separate out Islamist groups from the far-right, but not Dominionists and the like. I don't have a problem with it, but I can see the argument against it as having some validity. The murders from the guy who BLM wouldn't let join them does put a HUGE outlier in, depending on how one classifies it. That's one reason for the error range, as in where do those eight deaths actually fall? (The data stops in 2016, so the Portland killings aren't there either, and who knows where those two deaths belong.)

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Huh? What does this have to do with the SOP of Antifa, BAMN, etc.?
Did you have a better proxy for danger? Did you have better data on which you based your conclusion?
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