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Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , James Alex Fields , protest incidents , racism incidents , terrorism incidents

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Old 21st August 2017, 08:17 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Oh, I meant the far-left groups, not the black nationalists groups. I know that sometimes it's confusing for people on the left and right, but Muslim and black nationalist terror and/or hate groups aren't far-left groups (normally). There is also the issue of why to separate out Islamist groups from the far-right, but not Dominionists and the like. I don't have a problem with it, but I can see the argument against it as having some validity. The murders from the guy who BLM wouldn't let join them does put a HUGE outlier in, depending on how one classifies it. That's one reason for the error range, as in where do those eight deaths actually fall? (The data stops in 2016, so the Portland killings aren't there either, and who knows where those two deaths belong.)
Fair enough - it's entirely possible I simply missed that the first time. I wouldn't put the black separatist groups on either - I suppose they tend to lean conservative socially, but most of their rhetoric is simply off the charts entirely. I suppose they often occupy the same realm as Alex Jones and the like - more interested in bizarre psuedoscience and conspiracy theory than anything else.
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:19 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Antisemites criticize Israel. I shouldn't need to say it, but, the opinion of anrisemites don't count.
Well, yes you need to say it to evidence how ignorant you are of the actual facts. Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.

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Find me ONE person who is not antisemitic who says that anybody who supports Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state is a racist Judeosupremecist
Could you explain that in English? It seems to be a move of the goalposts that now you want me to find you someone who makes that exact statement? That's not necessary to support what I claim - that there are many people, even many Jews, who are critical of Israel's behavior towards its non-Jewish minority. THAT was the discussion.

I would have no trouble finding you a number of people who match my description. I don't hang out with anti-semitic holocaust-denying neo nazi trash so I would probably have difficulty finding the straw man you've requested, though.
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:41 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is racist judeosupremecist.

There you go.
???
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Old 22nd August 2017, 04:52 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post

I understand the swastika really represents a broken or missing spine, four times over. Must be why their only topics are filth and dirt. Poor things!
Derail, it's generally considered to be a solar symbol as is the reversed swastika of the Bonpo religion.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 05:10 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
???
You wanted one non anti semite to say it. I don't think anyone here would label me one. I think Israel is ran by a bunch of judeosupremecists. I found you one.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 05:59 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yes, I know. But that was one guy, and it's still not clear what happened. Even if we for the sake of argument assume that he deliberately was trying to kill as many as possible, it's still one guy. I'm not aware of too many incidents with white nationalists showing up and attacking people. Are you? I think that currently, that is more of the SOP of Antifa/BML/BAMN.
You've been long asserting that left wing extremism is somehow more dangerous than right wing extremism.

You've yet to provide any evidence of this.

Meanwhile, plenty of evidence to the contrary has been provided.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 06:01 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Huh? What does this have to do with the SOP of Antifa, BAMN, etc.?
It demonstrates that extremist groups from the right are more violent, despite your evidence-free claims to the contrary.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 06:02 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Of course you're going to find White Nationalists at a White Nationalist rally! What else would you expect? I think I figured out your problem--you're conflating White Nationalists with White supremacists and Nazis. Somehow you got the idea in your head that European Christians wanting to preserve a culture in which they find value and meaning is European Christian supremacism. That having strong borders and domestic policies designed to prevent assimilation and intermarriage with non-European Christians is bigotry or racism.
Yeah, nothing racist about those beliefs at all.

Regardless of how wonderful you might think white nationalists are, when you're marching lockstep with people waving Nazi flags and chanting Nazi slogans, I'm probably not going to take the time to determine how the finer points of your ideology differ from theirs.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:13 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, nothing racist about those beliefs at all.

Regardless of how wonderful you might think white nationalists are, when you're marching lockstep with people waving Nazi flags and chanting Nazi slogans, I'm probably not going to take the time to determine how the finer points of your ideology differ from theirs.
The basic difference between the Nazis and the standard white nationalist is that one is genocidal, whereas the other only supports mass forced migrations. Totally different crime against humanity!
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Old 22nd August 2017, 11:05 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
...there are many people, even many Jews, who are critical of Israel's behavior towards its non-Jewish minority. THAT was the discussion.

I would have no trouble finding you a number of people who match my description. ...
If it helps you:
I am one person who is critical of particularly the current Israeli government because of their policies towards non-Jewish people within the realm of its reach.
It should be noted that this is a conservative, racially sensitive government with members who profess profound belief in the same god and much of the same scripture that many Republican politicians and many KKK/white supremacist types believe in - the scripture and the god some of them claim to defend against godless liberals and muslims.

To wit: This Israeli goverment is closely aligned with both the current US president and the Republican majorities in Congress.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:05 PM   #291
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Seems pretty clear this was a murder / domestic terrorist attack to me. The road behind him was clear. He comes speeding in from quite a ways back, into a crowd of anti-white-supremacist protestors. He's a white supremacist. No one attacked his car until he was already using it as a deadly weapon. Then he speeds off. Doesn't seem like rocket science, but we'll see what evidence comes out in court...

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Old 22nd August 2017, 03:04 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, yes you need to say it to evidence how ignorant you are of the actual facts. Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.



Could you explain that in English? It seems to be a move of the goalposts that now you want me to find you someone who makes that exact statement? That's not necessary to support what I claim - that there are many people, even many Jews, who are critical of Israel's behavior towards its non-Jewish minority. THAT was the discussion.
No, the discussion is the Charlottesville Car Crash Video. But since you asked, Ill try to explain it again from the beginning: people here (and in every media outlet around the world) use White Nationalist, White Supremacist, neo-Nazi, and Nazi interchangeably to describe the protesters at Charlottesville. That's wrong. They're not the same. White Nationalism isn't White supremacism. It's not Nazism. White Nationalism isn't inherently racist. White Nationalism is the moral equivalent of Zionism. Israel isn't perfect but it's existence as a Jewish state is a perfect example of how a people with nationalist aspirations can create a state that protects the interests of an ethnic majority without racism or a belief in their own superiority. People do criticize the state of Israel but nobody says Israel doesn't have a right to exist because ethnic nationalism is abhorrent immoral and racist and Jews who support Israel are dangerous Judeosupremacists who deserve to be punched.

You can be for or against nationalism in principle but you can't be selective about it.

If that doesn't help we can continue this conversation in another thread. To get back on topic, has any new video of the car crash surfaced? Or any evidence that this was more than a terrible accident that was triggered by the ANTIFA?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 03:41 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No, the discussion is the Charlottesville Car Crash Video. But since you asked, Ill try to explain it again from the beginning: people here (and in every media outlet around the world) use White Nationalist, White Supremacist, neo-Nazi, and Nazi interchangeably to describe the protesters at Charlottesville. That's wrong.They're not the same. White Nationalism isn't White supremacism. It's not Nazism.
Agreed. At least on paper. I guess one could believe that White Nationalists are secretly Nazis, but I don't.

Quote:
To get back on topic, has any new video of the car crash surfaced?
I haven't seen any more, which is kind of surprising, given how many people were there and how many were filming. Perhaps there is more available, but it is being withheld from the media so as not to influence the proceedings.

Quote:
Or any evidence that this was more than a terrible accident that was triggered by the ANTIFA?
I think the bulk of the evidence so far suggests that this was not just an accident.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 03:47 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No, the discussion is the Charlottesville Car Crash Video. But since you asked, Ill try to explain it again from the beginning: people here (and in every media outlet around the world) use White Nationalist, White Supremacist, neo-Nazi, and Nazi interchangeably to describe the protesters at Charlottesville. That's wrong. They're not the same. White Nationalism isn't White supremacism. It's not Nazism. White Nationalism isn't inherently racist. White Nationalism is the moral equivalent of Zionism. Israel isn't perfect but it's existence as a Jewish state is a perfect example of how a people with nationalist aspirations can create a state that protects the interests of an ethnic majority without racism or a belief in their own superiority. People do criticize the state of Israel but nobody says Israel doesn't have a right to exist because ethnic nationalism is abhorrent immoral and racist and Jews who support Israel are dangerous Judeosupremacists who deserve to be punched.

You can be for or against nationalism in principle but you can't be selective about it.

If that doesn't help we can continue this conversation in another thread. To get back on topic, has any new video of the car crash surfaced? Or any evidence that this was more than a terrible accident that was triggered by the ANTIFA?
Presumably under White Nationalism,blacks would be separate but equal?


Why could anyone think that is racist?

Just as the people in my class at school who said that they "weren't racist but were racialist" (which seemed to be racism in a suit).
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Old 22nd August 2017, 04:12 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Presumably under White Nationalism,blacks would be separate but equal?


Why could anyone think that is racist?

Just as the people in my class at school who said that they "weren't racist but were racialist" (which seemed to be racism in a suit).
Presumably blacks should live in the black ethnostate.

Also, if they stayed, the would be treated worse because the primary purpose of the state would be to advance white interests. By that isn't racism because there is nothing stating it should be advanced because White people are superior.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 04:21 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Presumably blacks should live in the black ethnostate.

Also, if they stayed, the would be treated worse because the primary purpose of the state would be to advance white interests. By that isn't racism because there is nothing stating it should be advanced because White people are superior.
In theory it's just a hateful ideology, that prevents free movement of citizens and free association of citizens.

In practice, the white nationalists would want the best bits for themselves.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 05:33 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Presumably under White Nationalism,blacks would be separate but equal?

Why could anyone think that is racist?

Just as the people in my class at school who said that they "weren't racist but were racialist" (which seemed to be racism in a suit).
This is a problem caused by the whole "racism is a hatred, in your 'heart'" idea. White supremacy in the US wasn't about hatred, it was about money. Slavery turned into wealthy landowners finding the cheapest possible labor. Jim Crow stuck black people, who paid the same taxes or more, receiving far worse public facilities. Things like the New Deal required black people to pay in, but gave the benefits to white people - which makes it hilarious that many white people now demand that black people "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", as MLK Jr. noted.

This seems obvious, but white nationalism, in the US, would require nonwhite people to give up property, and possibly to be considered property, to be given to what would inevitably be the wealthiest white people. This is no different than slavery or Jim Crow, monetarily.

Now, the ethnic cleansing portion adds a specific crime against humanity to the above. But then again, we've seen people rage against black people when someone gets above "his station." In fact, in the US, it's almost inevitable.

Funny thing is, this was predicted. It happens whenever black people advance too far, when someone rises above his or her station while being black. In this case, the black guy who rose "above his station" was Barack Obama. The backlash, and hilariously the man who clearly demonstrates every old black American saying about how much easier it is to be white? Donald Trump, the most laughably inept president in...um...I really don't know how far back.

But as I said, we've seen it all before. Every black person I know, and most people from other minority groups as will, got ready. It's the majority of white people that either voted for Toupee Fiasco, or who insisted that he and Hillary were "the same", that will have to learn the hard way.

(My position on the central subject is unchanged, this is a clear-cut terrorist attack, perpetrated by an angry young man who was indoctrinated via the Internet, no different than any similar attack in Europe by an ISIS sympathiser. Just thought I'd throw that in)

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Old 22nd August 2017, 05:53 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No, the discussion is the Charlottesville Car Crash Video. But since you asked, Ill try to explain it again from the beginning: people here (and in every media outlet around the world) use White Nationalist, White Supremacist, neo-Nazi, and Nazi interchangeably to describe the protesters at Charlottesville. That's wrong. They're not the same.
Marches with Nazis = Nazi.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 06:10 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post

In practice, the white nationalists would want the best bits for themselves.
Which is racial but not always racism.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 10:24 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post

If that doesn't help we can continue this conversation in another thread. To get back on topic, has any new video of the car crash surfaced? Or any evidence that this was more than a terrible accident that was triggered by the ANTIFA?
Yeah, it's being kept in a vault in Area 51 along with the missing footage from the Zapruder film where it can clearly be seen that Jackie fired first. Lee Harvey was defending himself, man!
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Old 22nd August 2017, 10:40 PM   #301
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Just a relevant note: many of the whites in power in South Africa argued identically for many years that they were not white supremacists, just separatists who wanted to set up separate homelands for the blacks, colored, and whites. Because all races wanted to be apart, right? Oddly the white homelands included all the riches, the black homelands all the poverty. Just coincidence of course.

And of course the history of separate but equal in the USA.

Finally: if what is most important to you in evaluating people is their race, then you are a racist.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 10:44 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Just a relevant note: many of the whites in power in South Africa argued identically for many years that they were not white supremacists, just separatists who wanted to set up separate homelands for the blacks, colored, and whites. Because all races wanted to be apart, right? Oddly the white homelands included all the riches, the black homelands all the poverty. Just coincidence of course.

And of course the history of separate but equal in the USA.

Finally: if what is most important to you in evaluating people is their race, then you are a racist.
Also, supporting white south Africans enclaves flies in the face of wanting ethnic states. That would clearly be the no whites allowed African state.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 11:48 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which is racial but not always racism.
A distinction without any meaningful difference.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 01:55 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Just a relevant note: many of the whites in power in South Africa argued identically for many years that they were not white supremacists, just separatists who wanted to set up separate homelands for the blacks, colored, and whites. Because all races wanted to be apart, right? Oddly the white homelands included all the riches, the black homelands all the poverty. Just coincidence of course.
Money money money. The white designated areas either held great mineral wealth (gold & diamond fields) or were privileged in other ways. Black areas were situated outside, but near major metro's (so that us whiteys could live apart, but still have our domestic workers and garden boys manage to make it to work on time) or on poor land that was not particularly productive.

Which beaches were allocated to which races was determined almost exclusively by how dangerous the beach was. Hectic rip-tides and shark encounters? Black-only beach. Gentle slope, good waves, safe currents? Whites-only beach.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Also, supporting white south Africans enclaves flies in the face of wanting ethnic states. That would clearly be the no whites allowed African state.
Yes, that's the rather obvious flaw isn't it? Why do white nationalists need a homeland in the USA? They have all of northern Europe to choose from, right? *

Of course on the South African side, the boers simply claimed (not entirely without reason) that large parts of South Africa were uninhabited and thus were rightly theirs to colonise.

*Oh wait, they're all socialist countries and no true white accepts socialism, amirite?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:24 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
A distinction without any meaningful difference.
I'm team instinct on Pokemon go. I fight for my team even though I know all three are identical and have no intrinsic superiority.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:15 AM   #306
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deleted - I wanted to keep the discussion to specifically the car crash, not the general issues related to the Charlottesville demonstrations.

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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:43 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You've been long asserting that left wing extremism is somehow more dangerous than right wing extremism.

You've yet to provide any evidence of this.

Meanwhile, plenty of evidence to the contrary has been provided.
Far-left "violence" targets buildings/infrastructure/... whereas far-right violence targets people. It's one of the things cops actually use to try to determine whether an attack came from left or right-wing groups. For example, even with bomb attacks, far-left groups (such as the CCC) will alert authorities in advance so that the target area can be evacuated.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:10 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Far-left "violence" targets buildings/infrastructure/... whereas far-right violence targets people.
That dude who shot up the baseball practice didn't follow that pattern, and all those antifa folks with clubs were planning on using them on something....and I'll bet it wasn't infrastructure.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:14 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That dude who shot up the baseball practice didn't follow that pattern
I'm sure there's always some exceptions to be found for everything. Doesn't negate the general pattern.

Quote:
and all those antifa folks with clubs were planning on using them on something....and I'll bet it wasn't infrastructure.
Yeah, they were planning on using them to defend themselves and others from heavily armed and violent neo-nazis. Not quite what we're talking about in this tangent.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:20 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'm sure there's always some exceptions to be found for everything. Doesn't negate the general pattern.
Has a pattern actually been established?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:34 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Just a relevant note: many of the whites in power in South Africa argued identically for many years that they were not white supremacists, just separatists who wanted to set up separate homelands for the blacks, colored, and whites. Because all races wanted to be apart, right? Oddly the white homelands included all the riches, the black homelands all the poverty. Just coincidence of course.

And of course the history of separate but equal in the USA.

Finally: if what is most important to you in evaluating people is their race, then you are a racist.
The only people interested in rationalizing the beliefs of violent hate groups are members of or sympathizers with violent hate groups.

When there's an Islamic terrorist attack, we don't see a whole lot of discussion on the finer points of how the beliefs of ISIS differ from those of al-Qaeda. We call it a terrorist attack of an Islamic extremist, and move on.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 02:36 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
Has a pattern actually been established?
The pattern of violence coming from the right more than the left has been established repeatedly by law enforcement data.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 03:11 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The pattern of violence coming from the right more than the left has been established repeatedly by law enforcement data.
I think you're having a different conversation than the rest of them. Here is the pattern Meadmaker was wondering about:

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Far-left "violence" targets buildings/infrastructure/... whereas far-right violence targets people.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:30 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think you're having a different conversation than the rest of them. Here is the pattern Meadmaker was wondering about:
I'll be happy to connect the dots for you. The violence that the right is far more prone to than the left is against people.

Granted it's only one half of the equation, but that the right targets people is borne out by data from law enforcement.
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Old 25th August 2017, 04:07 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'm sure there's always some exceptions to be found for everything. Doesn't negate the general pattern.



Yeah, they were planning on using them to defend themselves and others from heavily armed and violent neo-nazis. Not quite what we're talking about in this tangent.
Wow, I agree with you on something. Cool.
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Old 25th August 2017, 04:10 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Money money money. The white designated areas either held great mineral wealth (gold & diamond fields) or were privileged in other ways. Black areas were situated outside, but near major metro's (so that us whiteys could live apart, but still have our domestic workers and garden boys manage to make it to work on time) or on poor land that was not particularly productive.

Which beaches were allocated to which races was determined almost exclusively by how dangerous the beach was. Hectic rip-tides and shark encounters? Black-only beach. Gentle slope, good waves, safe currents? Whites-only beach.



Yes, that's the rather obvious flaw isn't it? Why do white nationalists need a homeland in the USA? They have all of northern Europe to choose from, right? *

Of course on the South African side, the boers simply claimed (not entirely without reason) that large parts of South Africa were uninhabited and thus were rightly theirs to colonise.

*Oh wait, they're all socialist countries and no true white accepts socialism, amirite?
Well, they can try Poland also. Maybe too Catholic for 'em.
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Old 25th August 2017, 04:20 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
Has a pattern actually been established?
Yes, at least such a pattern is clear from the sample I've looked at.
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Old 25th August 2017, 06:12 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes, at least such a pattern is clear from the sample I've looked at.
Care to share?
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Old 27th August 2017, 02:48 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Presumably under White Nationalism,blacks would be separate but equal?


Why could anyone think that is racist?

Just as the people in my class at school who said that they "weren't racist but were racialist" (which seemed to be racism in a suit).
Presumably under a White supremacist state, blacks would be separate.

But White Nationalism isn't the same as White supremacism. Using Israel as our model of how ethnic nationalism without racism works: In a White Nationalist United States, European Christians would enjoy the same rights and responsibilities that Jews enjoy in Israel and non-European Christians would enjoy the same rights and responsibilities that non-Jews enjoy in Israel. Israel is able to preserve the Jewish character of the state without physically separating Jews and non-Jews. We could do the same.
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Old 27th August 2017, 03:16 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
AI haven't seen any more, which is kind of surprising, given how many people were there and how many were filming. Perhaps there is more available, but it is being withheld from the media so as not to influence the proceedings.
Law enforcement and the media are going to withhold any video that doesn't fit their agenda so I'm not surprised nothing is coming from them. But I would expect there would be more individuals uploading their video to Youtube.

Quote:
I think the bulk of the evidence so far suggests that this was not just an accident.
I disagree. The bulk of the evidence that is available at this point doesn't allow any definitive conclusions. It can support a terrible accident scenario or a terrorist attack scenario or anything in between. Everybody wants it to be an intentional terrorist attack by a typical Trump supporting Nazi. We'll have to wait and see if that's true. But, as I've said many times, the longer we go without any solid evidence that that is what happened, the more likely it is that it isn't.
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