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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 6th September 2017, 02:42 AM   #361
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Congress already fixed it.

26 years ago.

The A.G. can make adjustments in cases where certain criteria are met. DACA is a memorandum that tells the A.G. to use that discretion broadly, to seek out and find deportation proceedings where deferred action (spelled out in the law) would apply and...apply it.
But as we can see, the weakness there is that it's up to the AG to apply the discretion. That lacks the same strength as law.
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Old 6th September 2017, 03:18 AM   #362
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This was the original request to which I responded...

Originally Posted by Civet View Post
As usual when I hear of Trump making what seems like a bad move to me, I'd be happy to hear from any of the forum conservatives who'd like to defend it.
Is it obvious now why "forum conservatives", even those who dislike Trump and his agenda, are loathe to engage?

I did NOT defend Trump, nor his* rescinding of DACA.

It's like there's a single point of view, and all others are to be derided.

If you want a self-gratifying echo chamber, that's a great way to ensure one.


*More correct to say DOJ here, right?
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Old 6th September 2017, 04:38 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There's a difference between claiming credit and getting credit.
Not to Trump.
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:35 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
This is all pretty fascinating in messed up ways.
I think that describes the sum total of my feelings about this entire administration.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:39 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
The whole ending DACA thing seems to make sense as political theater for the base but doesn't seem to make much sense from either a moral or economic viewpoint.

1. Moral - The standard argument about how they were brought here as kids and we can't hold children accountable for their parents actions. That for most of them this is all they know and is more their home country to them than where they were actually born.

2. Economically - Why would you educated these people, give them grants to encourage higher education, then kick them out so all that knowledge and skills they gained can be used to compete against America instead of working for America. Plus from what I see and hear, there are lots of jobs and not enough people to fill them.

Exactly. While it would have been nice if DACA had been an actual law rather than executive order, there's no way such a program would have become law given the legislature we had when DACA was implemented.

Getting rid of it is stupid on an economic and moral level.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:08 AM   #366
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Remember when Republicans were losing their **** over a charity that provided AIDS medication to Africans?

Quote:
Dozens of lobbyists, contractors and others who make their living influencing the government pay President Trump’s companies for membership in his private golf clubs, a status that can put them in close contact with the president, a USA TODAY investigation found.

Members of the clubs Trump has visited most often as president — in Florida, New Jersey and Virginia — include at least 50 executives whose companies hold federal contracts and 21 lobbyists and trade group officials. Two-thirds played on one of the 58 days the president was there, according to scores they posted online.

Because membership lists at Trump’s clubs are secret, the public has until now been unable to assess the*conflicts they could create. USA TODAY found the names of 4,500 members by reviewing social media and a public website golfers use to track their handicaps, then researched and contacted hundreds to determine whether they had business with the government.

The review shows that, for the first time in U.S. history, wealthy people with interests before the government have a chance for close and confidential access to the president as a result of payments that enrich him personally. It is a view of the president available to few other Americans.
What a joke of a party.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:20 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
Exactly. While it would have been nice if DACA had been an actual law rather than executive order, there's no way such a program would have become law given the legislature we had when DACA was implemented.

Getting rid of it is stupid on an economic and moral level.
DACA is not an executive order. DACA is a memo that encourages agencies to use the discretionary powers the (Congess enacted, Presidentially signed) law provides.

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Old 6th September 2017, 07:25 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
DACA is not an executive order. DACA is a memo that encourages agencies to use the discretionary powers the (Congess enacted, Presidentially signed) law provides.

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Meh, same difference. The point being that it's not an actual law, which would have been nice to have but was never going to happen.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:35 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
... Of course people actually trusted the Bush administration somewhat when they made the case for war. No reasonable individual would ever trust Trump or anyone that claims to speak for him. In terms of trust, reliability, honesty and consistency America is becoming more and more like Russia.
No kidding. Exactly what moral authority the US retains is a question too few bother to ask, much less work out. It seems soft power has no appeal compared to the tough punk mojo now so in vogue. Not that anyone with enough clout is around to take up the global leadership slack, which is the far worse problem. Earth: rudderless, clueless, and armed to the teeth. Nice. Sounds like a predictable plot for a B movie whose ending you know. Thanks, Donnie boy, and the entire feckless GOP.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:50 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
Meh, same difference. The point being that it's not an actual law, which would have been nice to have but was never going to happen.
USC Title 8, chapter 12, subchapter II, part V is not "actual law"?

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Old 6th September 2017, 07:56 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
USC Title 8, chapter 12, subchapter II, part V is not "actual law"?

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*sigh* you know what I mean. Yes, the executive branch has the authority to deal with immigration status as it sees fit, provided it fits in with the current law.

DACA was not an act of congress, it was how the Obama administration decided to do things. Because since it was not an act of congress, the current admin can decide to not do things that way. It would have been nice if DACA had been an act of congress because then the executive branch would have to abide by it, but that was never going to happen.

Last edited by bonzombiekitty; 6th September 2017 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:57 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Is it obvious now why "forum conservatives", even those who dislike Trump and his agenda, are loathe to engage?

I did NOT defend Trump, nor his* rescinding of DACA.

It's like there's a single point of view, and all others are to be derided.
I think there are reasons why all conservatives are getting tarred with the same brush when issues like that come up.

The first issue is: Did you (or a generic conservative voter) actually vote for Trump? If so, you are responsible, even if you do not support this particular policy. Why is that? Because Trump based his election campaign largely on bigotry. He was also prone to both lie and issue contradictory statements. Its rather hard to say "I voted for a bigot, but I didn't think he'd enact this PARTICULAR bigoted policy" and be taken seriously. You vote for a bigot, its pretty obvious he's going to ACT like a bigot.

Even if you decided to not vote for Trump for president (and left that part of the ballot blank). Or you voted for a 3rd party candidate. In today's political environment where there are 2 major U.S. parties, unless you specifically vote for Hillary, you were actually helping Trump (i.e. the bigot) get elected.

But lets say that doesn't apply. Perhaps there were some conservatives who looked at the options and said "I'm conservative but bigotry must be stopped so I'll vote for Hillary". The problem is, those voters STILL probably voted for a republican congresscritter, and those people are enablers for Trump. Although a few have given lip service in condemning Trump now and then, most of them still line up to vote for the things Trump wants. Want a repeal of Obamacare? Most of the GOP voted for a repeal/replace. Want a hardcore conservative Supreme court judge? GOP senators lined up to approve Gorsuch, the Trump-nominated judge.

In addition, there is also the issue of how conservative actions contributed to the current situations. For years, the conservative playbook has been "Oppose obama, and cling to power by suppressing minority voters". They seem to have brought very little to the table. They helped set the stage for the rise of someone like Trump.

So excuse us for not having much sympathy for conservative voters who happen to whine "Its not my fault!" Because it is.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:04 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
*sigh* you know what I mean. Yes, the executive branch has the authority to deal with immigration status as it sees fit, provided it fits in with the current law.

DACA was not an act of congress, it was how the Obama administration decided to do things. Because since it was not an act of congress, the current admin can decide to not do things that way. It would have been nice if DACA had been an act of congress because then the executive branch would have to abide by it, but that was never going to happen.
It's important to get the details right because the initial way you phrased it is Republican propaganda that wants people to believe the entire program was Obama legislating from the desk ("ruling by fiat").

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Old 6th September 2017, 09:06 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

The first issue is: Did you (or a generic conservative voter) actually vote for Trump?
No.


Quote:
So excuse us for not having much sympathy for conservative voters who happen to whine "Its not my fault!" Because it is.
Who might that be?
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:33 AM   #375
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TRUMP agrees to 3-month debt limit increase in meeting w hill leaders. All GOP leaders were opposed, per multiple sources.
The art of the deal?
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:42 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There's a difference between claiming credit and getting credit.
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Not to Trump.

Perhaps more importantly, not to Trump supporters.

They seem to cheerfully accept his having said he is going to do something as the equal of having done it.

They don't even blink when he claims credit for something he didn't do.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:42 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think there are reasons why all conservatives are getting tarred with the same brush when issues like that come up.

The first issue is: Did you (or a generic conservative voter) actually vote for Trump? If so, you are responsible, even if you do not support this particular policy. Why is that? Because Trump based his election campaign largely on bigotry. He was also prone to both lie and issue contradictory statements. Its rather hard to say "I voted for a bigot, but I didn't think he'd enact this PARTICULAR bigoted policy" and be taken seriously. You vote for a bigot, its pretty obvious he's going to ACT like a bigot.

Even if you decided to not vote for Trump for president (and left that part of the ballot blank). Or you voted for a 3rd party candidate. In today's political environment where there are 2 major U.S. parties, unless you specifically vote for Hillary, you were actually helping Trump (i.e. the bigot) get elected.

But lets say that doesn't apply. Perhaps there were some conservatives who looked at the options and said "I'm conservative but bigotry must be stopped so I'll vote for Hillary". The problem is, those voters STILL probably voted for a republican congresscritter, and those people are enablers for Trump. Although a few have given lip service in condemning Trump now and then, most of them still line up to vote for the things Trump wants. Want a repeal of Obamacare? Most of the GOP voted for a repeal/replace. Want a hardcore conservative Supreme court judge? GOP senators lined up to approve Gorsuch, the Trump-nominated judge.

In addition, there is also the issue of how conservative actions contributed to the current situations. For years, the conservative playbook has been "Oppose obama, and cling to power by suppressing minority voters". They seem to have brought very little to the table. They helped set the stage for the rise of someone like Trump.

So excuse us for not having much sympathy for conservative voters who happen to whine "Its not my fault!" Because it is.
I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to people who voted for Trump - they might have believed his spin, but anyone who still supports Trump has no excuses.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:13 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Now now, there's the obvious difference that now it's about the GOP, not the Democrats. Not the same thing at all.
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Old 6th September 2017, 12:20 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Quote:
The first issue is: Did you (or a generic conservative voter) actually vote for Trump?
No.
But did you vote for Hillary? (As I pointed out, in the current U.S. political environment, there are usually only 2 candidates who have a reasonable chance, and if you don't vote for one (such as Clinton) you end up giving support to the other (Trump).

And more importantly, did you vote for ANY republican politicians in the last election? You know, the ones who tend to vote for the things Trump wants? As I pointed out, despite a few complaints here and there from GOP members, for the most part they are enablers.

Quote:
Quote:
So excuse us for not having much sympathy for conservative voters who happen to whine "Its not my fault!" Because it is.
Who might that be?
Well you certainly seem to be expressing those ideals (i.e. whining) when you posted:

It's like there's a single point of view, and all others are to be derided.

Conservatives set the stage for Trump. They continue to enable him. Conservatives are responsible for anything the racist orangutan-in-chief does. Trying to distance yourself is trying to avoid responsibility.
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Old 6th September 2017, 12:22 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to people who voted for Trump - they might have believed his spin, but anyone who still supports Trump has no excuses.
Then you're kinder than I am.

To me, it was so obvious that Trump was a problem... his constant lies, his use of bigoted rhetoric, his lack of concrete policy. To me, a person would really have to go out of their way to avoid knowing anything about that.
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Old 6th September 2017, 01:29 PM   #381
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And now there is this:

From: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7932761.html
Dozens of individuals hoping to influence the White House and federal government pay Donald Trump’s companies for memberships in his private golf clubs, allowing them the potential for close proximity to the President.

I just hope that none of the people paying for the golf memberships have ever listen to any of her corporate speeches or donated to the Clinton foundation, because then there might be a conflict of interest.
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Old 6th September 2017, 01:41 PM   #382
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And now some good news for the democrats:

From: http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/06/politi...ans/index.html
In a rebuke to Republican leaders, Trump backed Democrats' plan to support a deal that would fund Hurricane Harvey aid but only raise the debt ceiling for three months. Those two items would also be tied to a measure to keep the government open through the end of December

So, this works well for the Democrats. No big spending for the Wall, and they get the spending they needed. The republicans had wanted the debt ceiling raised for longer (6 months to 18 months), but by keeping the period shorter, it will become an issue during the mid-term elections (which may help the democrats).

So, it does make me wonder about why Trump agreed to it.

- Could be a genuine attempt to build a consensus with the Democrats, since he may need their votes in the future

- Could be incompetence on his part, not realizing that having to deal with the debt ceiling 3 months down the line may hurt his party

- Maybe it is some sort of plot on his part... he wants republican congresscritters to be loyal to him, and thinks that any political fallout regarding the debt ceiling will help him get rid of republicans he doesn't like.
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Old 6th September 2017, 01:48 PM   #383
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It might be pure spite because Congressional Republicans haven't been as obedient as he'd have liked. I'd hope he's trying to build bridges with Democrats though. I doubt it, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if that's what's happening.
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:13 PM   #384
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Trump's Early Christmas Gift to Democrats
Quote:
In a sign of how the meeting went, he praised the two Democrats he had until recently called “obstructionists,” and he neglected to mention Ryan and McConnell at all.

Trump even held out the possibility of giving Democrats a much bigger prize in future negotiations: a permanent legislative fix for undocumented immigrants brought to the U.S. illegally as children who were protected from deportation under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, which he announced would be winding down. “Chuck and Nancy would like to see something happen, and so do I,” the president said.
Oh dear, Trump's working with the enemy! Now Republicans must be really pissed.

And those poor Trumpists! What will they do now, change tack again? "Pelosi and Schumer were filthy liberals, but Chuck and Nancy are good people..."


Originally Posted by Segnosaur
Could be incompetence on his part, not realizing that having to deal with the debt ceiling 3 months down the line may hurt his party
Or perhaps he's finally beginning to realize that Republicans aren't 'his' party. So he's doing the one thing he is actually any good at, making deals with anyone who will work with him - mob bosses, Russians, oppressive dictators, even Democrats!
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:22 PM   #385
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Good. Piss off republicans.
Keep it up and he'll find himself impeached sooner rather than later.

Either way, this is what - example 344 from the Book of Told You So?
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:28 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Either way, this is what - example 344 from the Book of Told You So?
Ted Cruz called it.

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I AGREE


Trump was right to make this deal because the debt ceiling is stupid. The perpetual game of chicken it causes is the worst as Ted Cruz has proven before.
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:45 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Ted Cruz called it.

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I AGREE


Trump was right to make this deal because the debt ceiling is stupid. The perpetual game of chicken it causes is the worst as Ted Cruz has proven before.
Seems to me that the Dems are simply pushing the game of chicken later, where the pressures of winter recess makes the deadline that much more serious.

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Old 6th September 2017, 05:50 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Seems to me that the Dems are simply pushing the game of chicken later, where the pressures of winter recess makes the deadline that much more serious.

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True, which is why the debt ceiling should be abolished. Of course with the present make up of congress getting an extension with no strings, wall funding, tax cuts for the rich, etc., is a win.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:25 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Seems to me that the Dems are simply pushing the game of chicken later, where the pressures of winter recess makes the deadline that much more serious.
Maybe Trump figures he'll be out of office by then.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:06 PM   #390
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Trump's a narcissist and he's beginning to realize he'll get far more narcissistic supply from the media by cutting deals with Democrats than he will working with heartless Republicans. Look for more cooperation with the left.
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Old 6th September 2017, 07:59 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Trump's a narcissist ...

No kidding.
I keep getting assaulted with clips of him speaking today... somewhere.

It must be another "bring your daughter to work" day, because while he was supposed to be speaking about a tax plan, it seems nine out of every ten words out of his mouth are some form of self-serving hubris and bluster.
Plus he's just great because... Ivanka.

And if I'm not mistaken, he managed to slip in his favorite promisory time scale a time or two... "two weeks... we'll have something/solve that/etc. in two weeks". Yeah... sure you will.

Watching this inveterate liar speak is mind-numbingly cringeworthy.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:17 PM   #392
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Trump screwed over Republicans hard by making that deal. LOL.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:35 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Trump's Early Christmas Gift to Democrats


Oh dear, Trump's working with the enemy! Now Republicans must be really pissed.
Republican politicians I'm sure. But I'd wager lots of Republican voters are more fed up with the clowns in Congress than they are with the clown in the White House. He's been serving up red meat for the base and has a laundry list of accomplishments to point to. All they did was manage to screw up repealing Obamacare. If he starts helping to primary some of these guys like he's doing to Jeff Flake this could get even uglier (and potentially more entertaining).
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:45 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
If all GOP leaders were opposed, with whom did Trump agree the 3-month debt limit ?

Is this another case of GOP leaders being "opposed" (with their mouths) but not actually opposed (when push comes to shove) ? If so this sounds an awful lot like the GOP getting what they want (the debt limit increased and government still working) whilst having some plausible deniability when it comes to their constituents.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:06 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If all GOP leaders were opposed, with whom did Trump agree the 3-month debt limit ?
With the Party of No Who Must Not Be Named, of course.

Quote:
Is this another case of GOP leaders being "opposed" (with their mouths) but not actually opposed (when push comes to shove) ? If so this sounds an awful lot like the GOP getting what they want (the debt limit increased and government still working) whilst having some plausible deniability when it comes to their constituents.
Yup. Politics at its worst. I hope their voters still have enough people to see right through them and deny them their support when the time comes. It doesn't need to be a large portion of their vote, one in ten is more than enough.

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Old 6th September 2017, 10:44 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If all GOP leaders were opposed, with whom did Trump agree the 3-month debt limit ?
Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer.

Quote:
Is this another case of GOP leaders being "opposed" (with their mouths) but not actually opposed (when push comes to shove) ? If so this sounds an awful lot like the GOP getting what they want (the debt limit increased and government still working) whilst having some plausible deniability when it comes to their constituents.
No, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell wanted to push it past the midterm elections (which is clearly the best strategy for them). This way forces them to do it again in three months and Democrats will have a lot of leverage.

Trump screwed them.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 6th September 2017 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:53 PM   #397
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I think The Don needs the punchline:

Three or four Libertarian Republikers refused to vote to extend the debt limit at all, and/or they won't vote for flood relief. Ryan and McConnell know they can't let the government shut down again. Ergo they needed Democratic votes, ergo Schumer and Pelosi had leverage.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:35 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think The Don needs the punchline:

Three or four Libertarian Republikers refused to vote to extend the debt limit at all, and/or they won't vote for flood relief. Ryan and McConnell know they can't let the government shut down again. Ergo they needed Democratic votes, ergo Schumer and Pelosi had leverage.
Leverage to do what ?

We now have a situation where the Democratic Party is enabling President Trump, "recklessly" raising the debt ceiling whilst the GOP leadership can still say that they opposed the attempts by the Democratic Party to allow spending to spiral out of control (as usual) and still have a funded and functioning government to push through deregulation and tax reform. It's a win/win for them.

OTOH the Democratic Party come across as weak for being willing to work on a bipartisan basis (I know that anywhere else that's a good thing but in today's highly partisan US the opposite applies) and leave themselves open to (unfounded IMO) accusations that they are the party of fiscal irresponsibility.

In a few months the US will be closer to a fiscal cliff. The Democratic Party may believe that they have the upper hand but like as not, the GOP and/or Trump will attach various unacceptable things to the next debt ceiling raise (like budget for the wall, constraints on abortion and so on) which will leave the Democratic Party in a difficult position:
  • Agree to these things to keep the government going and hand the GOP an easy win
  • Reject these things and be the party that shut down the government

I think they've been played.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:40 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Leverage to do what ?

We now have a situation where the Democratic Party is enabling President Trump, "recklessly" raising the debt ceiling whilst the GOP leadership can still say that they opposed the attempts by the Democratic Party to allow spending to spiral out of control (as usual) and still have a funded and functioning government to push through deregulation and tax reform. It's a win/win for them.

OTOH the Democratic Party come across as weak for being willing to work on a bipartisan basis (I know that anywhere else that's a good thing but in today's highly partisan US the opposite applies) and leave themselves open to (unfounded IMO) accusations that they are the party of fiscal irresponsibility.

In a few months the US will be closer to a fiscal cliff. The Democratic Party may believe that they have the upper hand but like as not, the GOP and/or Trump will attach various unacceptable things to the next debt ceiling raise (like budget for the wall, constraints on abortion and so on) which will leave the Democratic Party in a difficult position:
  • Agree to these things to keep the government going and hand the GOP an easy win
  • Reject these things and be the party that shut down the government

I think they've been played.
Leverage to pass DACA perhaps.

Republicans can't say **** about Democrats since their leaders are very likely going to allow this bill to pass and their President is going to sign it into law.

Democrats aren't going to give Republicans anything in a few months. If things go to hell, Republicans will get the blame since they have the Presidency, Congress, and are the anti-government party.

Trump screwed Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan. It is as simple as that. There is no doubt whatsoever that they would have preferred to push this till after the midterms.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 6th September 2017 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:57 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Leverage to pass DACA perhaps.
Trump can still veto it so I'm not sure what that buys them

Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Republicans can't say **** about Democrats since their leaders are very likely going to allow this bill to pass and their President is going to sign it into law.
Of course they can say whatever they like. By being seem to be opposed to government spending spiraling out of control they can continue to pretend to be the party of fiscal responsibility.

Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Democrats aren't going to give Republicans anything in a few months. If things go to hell, Republicans will get the blame since they have the Presidency, Congress, and are the anti-government party.
Doesn't matter. The fact that the Democratic Party supported kicking the can down the road for a few months means that they now "own" the consequences. If there is a shutdown in a few months because the GOP refuse to approve the debt ceiling increase and/or they attach all kinds of unacceptable conditions to it, the Democratic Party will be blamed for cutting a deal in September 2017 which didn't fix the problem - even though a fix is impossible.

IOW, they touched it last so they own it.

Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Trump screwed Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan. It is as simple as that. There is no doubt whatsoever that they would have preferred to push this till after the midterms.
I disagree, Trump has given them two valuable things, he's given them the opportunity to say that they opposed this reckless increase of the debt ceiling and he's made the Democratic Party "responsible" for what happens in a few months.

If a deal is made then, the GOP get the credit. If a deal cannot be made and government shuts down then it's the Democratic Party's fault for not dealing with it properly three months earlier (i.e. now) or in six months time (i.e. on the GOP's preferred timetable).
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