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Tags telepathy , telepathy test

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Old 3rd September 2017, 02:10 PM   #201
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
There's a substantial difference between the (notoriously inaccurate) task of recalling experiences in detail and the reliability with which our various senses perceive the experiences in the first place. They're quite distinct tasks. In any case, there's no need to invoke some hypothetical and still undefined extra sense since none is required to explain our present abilities and no rigorous search for extra abilities has found anything to require another explanation.
You beat me to it. I was about to illustrate the difference by extolling my uncanny ability to flawlessly enumerate every playing card in a shuffled deck if you only show them to me.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 02:19 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We can't be entirely certain of anything, but the bolded stands out. You're giving yourself wiggle-room. Why would alien brains allow psi-powers while human brains don't? Are you opening the door to the existence of psi powers in possible non-humans? What about psi abilities present in possible advanced machine intelligences?
One reason is that aliens could (for a sufficiently wide definition of 'could') have evolved or engineered radio transceivers into their bodies that send and receive unvocalised thoughts. Human beings haven't.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 03:41 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Respect has and will always be extended where it is offered.

Offer helpful advice or not.

Volunteer or not.

Characterizations of me are unwelcome.

Welcome or not... I'll note you didn't say "mis-characterization".



"Put up or shut up"... "**** or get off the pot... etc...
Don't make a claim and then say "look it up yourself", then get upset when folks laugh at you.


There... there's your "helpful advice". HTH HAND.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 03:59 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
One reason is that aliens could (for a sufficiently wide definition of 'could') have evolved or engineered radio transceivers into their bodies that send and receive unvocalised thoughts. Human beings haven't.
Possible, but would you really consider that psi?
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Old 3rd September 2017, 04:23 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Possible, but would you really consider that psi?
Define "telepathy".
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Old 3rd September 2017, 04:51 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Define "telepathy".

I'm with Randi... I'll worry about that after someone merely demonstrates it. To the satisfaction of us "nonbelievers".

Shouldn't be hard at all if it's real.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 04:54 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Define "telepathy".
You could define it two ways: reading someone's mind utilizing processes already known (e.g., radio); reading someone's mind utilizing processes not known.

I think the latter is what most people have in mind, not people with tiny radios in their heads.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 05:10 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I'm with Randi... I'll worry about that after someone merely demonstrates it. To the satisfaction of us "nonbelievers".

Shouldn't be hard at all if it's real.
Without a clear definition, there can't be agreement that it's been demonstrated. Not so much for terrestrial telepathy but for the aside into aliens having it. It should be pretty straight forward to define human telepathy - communication using some method other than our five senses. What if aliens have different senses?

It's silly speculation but telepathy is generally a silly topic. Might as well get some thought experiment mileage out of it.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 05:11 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You could define it two ways: reading someone's mind utilizing processes already known (e.g., radio); reading someone's mind utilizing processes not known.

I think the latter is what most people have in mind, not people with tiny radios in their heads.
The question was in the context of aliens and telepathy, not people.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 05:22 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
The question was in the context of aliens and telepathy, not people.
The definitions would fit anything:
Telepathy (a): X (where X could be humans or aliens) reading minds based on known mechanisms (e.g., radio)
Telepathy(b): X reading minds based on unknown mechanisms.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 05:27 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The definitions would fit anything:
Telepathy (a): X (where X could be humans or aliens) reading minds based on known mechanisms (e.g., radio)
Telepathy(b): X reading minds based on unknown mechanisms.
I would have to say that aliens won't have telepathy then. They will understand their own mechanisms of communication quite well even if we wouldn't.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 06:08 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You could define it two ways: reading someone's mind utilizing processes already known (e.g., radio); reading someone's mind utilizing processes not known.

I think the latter is what most people have in mind, not people with tiny radios in their heads.
Thing is - and Darat mentioned this and you dismissed it - we actually do know an awful lot about the way the universe works. We know that there are only four fundamental ways in which particles can interact. Of the four, only two are capable of acting at greater than subatomic distances - gravity and electromagnetism. There are literally no other ways for particles (ie, stuff) to interact, and we know this for a fact. A century of experimentation and mathematical rigour have led us to this conclusion.

Furthermore, we know very precisely when and how these forces work. Very precisely indeed. For the electromagnetic force, we know how it operates more precisely than we have ever known anything else.

What you're proposing, though you don't even realise it, is the existence of some method for stuff to interact with other stuff that has previously gone unnoticed. Given the precision and accuracy with which we know the existing methods of stuff to interact, it is pretty much inconceivable that there exists another method that we have been unable to pin down with equal accuracy and precision.

We're very good at discovering how things work. That we haven't discovered yet how telepathy works - or even that telepathy works - very strongly suggests that there is no phenomenon there to discover.

The gap in our knowledge in which telepathy might be able to fit is extremely small.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 09:39 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Time and date?

Number and suit? 10 cards...?

So, each place, with the correct number and suit will be counted as one right answer, or ALL 10 must be right to declare a positive result?

52 cards. You only have to get 10 right. Just tell me when to do it and I will. A day or two notice might be nice.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 09:43 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Without a clear definition, there can't be agreement that it's been demonstrated. Not so much for terrestrial telepathy but for the aside into aliens having it. It should be pretty straight forward to define human telepathy - communication using some method other than our five senses. What if aliens have different senses?

It's silly speculation but telepathy is generally a silly topic. Might as well get some thought experiment mileage out of it.

That's why I didn't propose my test as anything conclusive or scientifically rigorous. It's only a starting point. We can later introduce more robust and controlled experiments and begin to define whatever it is we're studying.
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Old 4th September 2017, 05:51 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
52 cards. You only have to get 10 right. Just tell me when to do it and I will. A day or two notice might be nice.
So, ONLY all 10 correct answers, with numbers and suits, will be considered a success?
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Old 4th September 2017, 06:08 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, ONLY all 10 correct answers, with numbers and suits, will be considered a success?
I believe the proposal is that you attempt to guess all 52 cards and getting any 10 or more right would be considered a success.

I can't remember enough probability to work out the odds of achieving that by accident.
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Old 4th September 2017, 06:26 AM   #217
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Loss Leader, I don't think you've explained this very clearly; I've had to re-read your post to understand what you mean. Let me see if I've got it right. Is what you propose as follows:

You shuffle the deck.
You look through all 52 cards, one at a time, and concentrate on each. While doing so you record where in the sequence each card falls.
KotA posts a sequence of all 52 cards, naming the position in the sequence where each card occurs.
If at least 10 of the card positions in KotA's sequence match the corresponding card positions in your sequence, this is counted as a success.

Is that correct?

Dave
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Old 4th September 2017, 06:36 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
I would have to say that aliens won't have telepathy then. They will understand their own mechanisms of communication quite well even if we wouldn't.
And if a human being did demonstrate telepathic ability and it was found to be transmitted by a known medium then he wouldn't accept it as telepathy...

Strange because I'm sure that some believers claim it's electromagnetic (the fact that the human brain doesn't give off anything like enough EM conveniently ignored).
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Old 4th September 2017, 07:19 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I believe the proposal is that you attempt to guess all 52 cards and getting any 10 or more right would be considered a success.

I can't remember enough probability to work out the odds of achieving that by accident.
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Loss Leader, I don't think you've explained this very clearly; I've had to re-read your post to understand what you mean. Let me see if I've got it right. Is what you propose as follows:

You shuffle the deck.
You look through all 52 cards, one at a time, and concentrate on each. While doing so you record where in the sequence each card falls.
KotA posts a sequence of all 52 cards, naming the position in the sequence where each card occurs.
If at least 10 of the card positions in KotA's sequence match the corresponding card positions in your sequence, this is counted as a success.

Is that correct?

Dave
I ran a quick program to check the probability. Assuming the test is run carefully (cards shuffled and all that), and ignoring my well known tendency to write buggy code early in the morning, the probability of hitting 10 or more by chance is effectively zero.
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Old 4th September 2017, 07:46 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Thing is - and Darat mentioned this and you dismissed it - we actually do know an awful lot about the way the universe works. We know that there are only four fundamental ways in which particles can interact. Of the four, only two are capable of acting at greater than subatomic distances - gravity and electromagnetism. There are literally no other ways for particles (ie, stuff) to interact, and we know this for a fact. A century of experimentation and mathematical rigour have led us to this conclusion.

Furthermore, we know very precisely when and how these forces work. Very precisely indeed. For the electromagnetic force, we know how it operates more precisely than we have ever known anything else.

What you're proposing, though you don't even realise it, is the existence of some method for stuff to interact with other stuff that has previously gone unnoticed. Given the precision and accuracy with which we know the existing methods of stuff to interact, it is pretty much inconceivable that there exists another method that we have been unable to pin down with equal accuracy and precision.

We're very good at discovering how things work. That we haven't discovered yet how telepathy works - or even that telepathy works - very strongly suggests that there is no phenomenon there to discover.

The gap in our knowledge in which telepathy might be able to fit is extremely small.
Great post, which would have been unnecessary had Fudbucker simply watched the video explaining this.
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Old 4th September 2017, 07:51 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We can't be entirely certain of anything, but the bolded stands out. You're giving yourself wiggle-room. Why would alien brains allow psi-powers while human brains don't? Are you opening the door to the existence of psi powers in possible non-humans? What about psi abilities present in possible advanced machine intelligences?
It seemed obvious to me, but I'll spell it out for you as you've clearly misunderstood, and attempted to insert your own snark into my post.

We can only measure what interects with particles here on earth, because we live here on earth. If there are telepathic aliens out there, the effect of their ability would not be measurable because it is too far away.
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Old 4th September 2017, 08:10 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Yawn...

Do you want to help or not?
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Respect has and will always be extended where it is offered.

Offer helpful advice or not.

Volunteer or not.

Characterizations of me are unwelcome.
I'm quite happy to apoligise if I have mischaracterised your post.

Please explain to me what positive reaction "Yawn" was supposed to convey.

Thanks.
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Old 4th September 2017, 09:06 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It seemed obvious to me, but I'll spell it out for you as you've clearly misunderstood, and attempted to insert your own snark into my post.

We can only measure what interects with particles here on earth, because we live here on earth. If there are telepathic aliens out there, the effect of their ability would not be measurable because it is too far away.
That's a trivial point. The "IF" implies you believe telepathic aliens are possible, just undetectable (at the moment). Is that what you think?
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Old 4th September 2017, 09:08 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Thing is - and Darat mentioned this and you dismissed it - we actually do know an awful lot about the way the universe works. We know that there are only four fundamental ways in which particles can interact. Of the four, only two are capable of acting at greater than subatomic distances - gravity and electromagnetism. There are literally no other ways for particles (ie, stuff) to interact, and we know this for a fact. A century of experimentation and mathematical rigour have led us to this conclusion.

Furthermore, we know very precisely when and how these forces work. Very precisely indeed. For the electromagnetic force, we know how it operates more precisely than we have ever known anything else.

What you're proposing, though you don't even realise it, is the existence of some method for stuff to interact with other stuff that has previously gone unnoticed. Given the precision and accuracy with which we know the existing methods of stuff to interact, it is pretty much inconceivable that there exists another method that we have been unable to pin down with equal accuracy and precision.

We're very good at discovering how things work. That we haven't discovered yet how telepathy works - or even that telepathy works - very strongly suggests that there is no phenomenon there to discover.

The gap in our knowledge in which telepathy might be able to fit is extremely small.
Like I said, I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that certain aspects of the brain are still deeply mysterious (e.g., what is consciousness/how is it created).

For the record (if anyone cares), I think human telepathy is very unlikely (Prestige makes several good points). But the existence of psi powers in general? That remains an open question.
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Old 4th September 2017, 09:19 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Like I said, I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that certain aspects of the brain are still deeply mysterious (e.g., what is consciousness/how is it created).

For the record (if anyone cares), I think human telepathy is very unlikely (Prestige makes several good points). But the existence of psi powers in general? That remains an open question.
You have still missed the point - we know supernatural telepathy and yes all the other supernatural "psi" powers cannot exist, until about 20 years ago we could not say that but now we can. As ever science moves on and our "folk lore" struggles to keep up with it.

This has nothing to do with our understanding of consciousnesses, this is about what is possible in the universe in which we live.
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:02 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You have still missed the point - we know supernatural telepathy and yes all the other supernatural "psi" powers cannot exist, until about 20 years ago we could not say that but now we can. As ever science moves on and our "folk lore" struggles to keep up with it.

This has nothing to do with our understanding of consciousnesses, this is about what is possible in the universe in which we live.
Lol. We KNOW light travels through a luminerferous ether!
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:10 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, ONLY all 10 correct answers, with numbers and suits, will be considered a success?

10 out of 52, numbers and suits.
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:12 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Lol. We KNOW light travels through a luminerferous ether!

That was tested and shown to be incorrect. Much as telepathy has been tested and shown to be incorrect. Repeatedly.
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:23 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
10 out of 52, numbers and suits.
I assume you mean 10 or more.
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:24 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That's a trivial point. The "IF" implies you believe telepathic aliens are possible, just undetectable (at the moment). Is that what you think?
It may seem trivial to you, but it is in fact the crux of the matter.

We (by which I mean human scientists) have shown conclusively that telepathy does not exist on earth.

We have not tested the entire universe. It is possible that there are things out there that we don't yet know of.
Could that include telepathic aliens? It could. It would overturn what we know now, but that's happened before. It's unlikely, given our current state of knowledge, but I think it would go beyond what we know to make any kind of definitive statement about a universe we have only just begun to explore.
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:26 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
You shuffle the deck.
You look through all 52 cards, one at a time, and concentrate on each. While doing so you record where in the sequence each card falls.
KotA posts a sequence of all 52 cards, naming the position in the sequence where each card occurs. If at least 10 of the card positions in KotA's sequence match the corresponding card positions in your sequence, this is counted as a success.

Is that correct?

Dave
I look through the cards at an exact time KotA decides, concentrating on each card for as long as he decided.

I then post the sequence her as a hash (with some nonsense words dropped in to make it harder to crack. KotA posts his sequence and we compare.

Originally Posted by Startz View Post
I ran a quick program to check the probability. Assuming the test is run carefully (cards shuffled and all that), and ignoring my well known tendency to write buggy code early in the morning, the probability of hitting 10 or more by chance is effectively zero.

We can make it 5 cards. The probability would be 1:3.8 million.
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:28 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Lol. We KNOW light travels through a luminerferous ether!
No not like that at all, as we actually did not know that.

I know it is an astonishing thought, that we are approaching in some areas absolutely accurate descriptions of reality at certain scales, but we really are. Watch the video linked to earlier, we can now make claims based on descriptions of reality that are so accurate that there is simply no room for supernatural psi. All the gaps where it could have lived have been explored, there are no more gaps for it to hide in.
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Old 4th September 2017, 12:02 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Lol. We KNOW light travels through a luminerferous ether!
Even when that was a popular idea, it was an untested hypothesis - until experiments showed it to be false.

We have far better knowledge of how particles and forces interact at the energy regime relevant to biological functions, through literally millions of experiments (e.g. particle colliders, etc). We know how the protons, neutrons, and electrons we're made of behave within this regime and what particles and forces significantly influence them. The only known force with both the range and strength to be a possible telepathy candidate would be the electromagnetic force, but we also know it can't do the job.

There may be other forces yet to be discovered, but they're either too weak or too short range to be relevant to biological organisms; if they were strong or long range enough to significantly affect our everyday biological functioning, we'd have detected them long ago.
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Old 4th September 2017, 12:08 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
We can make it 5 cards. The probability would be 1:3.8 million.
Are you quite sure of that? I'm getting the probability of 5 or more to be 3.7 out of 1,000. (Mind, there's little I'm worse at than combinatorics.)
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Old 4th September 2017, 12:44 PM   #235
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Be sure that it has to be ten out of 52 in the correct order. If your number 7 is the Ace of Spades, and the respondent's number 33 is the Ace of Spades, that is a miss.

Otherwise, the respondent could say, "I got all 52 right! Named every one of them! Just not in the order that the tester recorded." And, you know . . . there have been people on this forum in the past who would claim that.
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Old 4th September 2017, 12:48 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It may seem trivial to you, but it is in fact the crux of the matter.

We (by which I mean human scientists) have shown conclusively that telepathy does not exist on earth.
It doesn't seem to exist. There is an extrapolation you're making from results in scientific settings to reality in general. Mistakes have been made along those lines before.

Quote:
We have not tested the entire universe. It is possible that there are things out there that we don't yet know of.
Could that include telepathic aliens? It could. It would overturn what we know now, but that's happened before. It's unlikely, given our current state of knowledge, but I think it would go beyond what we know to make any kind of definitive statement about a universe we have only just begun to explore.
I agree with this.
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Old 4th September 2017, 12:54 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
Even when that was a popular idea, it was an untested hypothesis - until experiments showed it to be false.

We have far better knowledge of how particles and forces interact at the energy regime relevant to biological functions, through literally millions of experiments (e.g. particle colliders, etc). We know how the protons, neutrons, and electrons we're made of behave within this regime and what particles and forces significantly influence them. The only known force with both the range and strength to be a possible telepathy candidate would be the electromagnetic force, but we also know it can't do the job.

There may be other forces yet to be discovered, but they're either too weak or too short range to be relevant to biological organisms; if they were strong or long range enough to significantly affect our everyday biological functioning, we'd have detected them long ago.
For some reason I am reminded of someone in the 1800's talking about disease and miasmic vapors.
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Old 4th September 2017, 01:17 PM   #238
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This is probably the most depressing part of discussing things like telepathy with people who want there to be room in the world for magic. They discount the amazing things we can do with technology as mundane, even trivial or unimportant. Cell phones allow us to communicate across large distances. We can view things in places and at scales we never dreamed possible. We can remotely control devices that allow us to move objects, or even explore other planets.

And yet, this isn't good enough. There must still be some sort of magic that we cannot yet explain or comprehend. There has to be room for souls, fairies, and extraordinary powers of the mind. No matter how fascinating the universe as it is may be (and that video linked earlier really is fascinating), it will never be satisfying for some.
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Old 4th September 2017, 04:03 PM   #239
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Old 4th September 2017, 04:13 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
Be sure that it has to be ten out of 52 in the correct order. If your number 7 is the Ace of Spades, and the respondent's number 33 is the Ace of Spades, that is a miss.

Certainly. The card must be in exact position. Even one away would not count as a hit. Calling the Queen of Spades as the eighth card when it is the 7th would be a miss. Calling the Queen of Clubs as the seventh card would be a miss. Calling the King of Spades as the seventh card would be a miss.


Originally Posted by Startz View Post
Are you quite sure of that? I'm getting the probability of 5 or more to be 3.7 out of 1,000. (Mind, there's little I'm worse at than combinatorics.)

It's ... um ... 1/52*2/51*3/50*4/49*5/48
So that's 240 / 311875200
Which is 1:1299480

But even at 1:1000, I think that's a demonstration that warrants at least a second test.
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