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Old 5th September 2017, 05:03 AM   #1
Ethan Thane Athen
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More Than half UK Have 'no religion'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...titudes-survey

Yee-ha!

There's hope for us yet - especially once all those old fogey, brexit voting, god-bothering, jingoistic, bastards die off...

Ironically, the young migrant workers the oldies get so worked up about tend to be more religious than our home-grown young people.

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Old 5th September 2017, 05:19 AM   #2
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Nice little stereotyping there, to up the quality of the ensuing conversation.
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Old 5th September 2017, 05:26 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Nice little stereotyping there, to up the quality of the ensuing conversation.
Heh, thought I'd get in first .

What bit triggered you? The Brexit bit?

The older you were, the more likely you were to vote for Brexit against the wishes of the younger generation who will inherit whatever ensues and there's a similar split on religion. It may be a deliberately exaggerated stereotype but it's not exactly at odds with the stats.

It was meant as a bit of fun mind, so feel free to ignore and keep the ensuing conversation high quality.
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Old 5th September 2017, 05:27 AM   #4
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Oh and I'd probably count as a relatively old fogey*... just not a Brexit voting, god bothering one.

*In my fifties.
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Old 8th September 2017, 06:21 PM   #5
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We might find hardly anyone in the UK being religious in a few years. Other than people who were born overseas and their children. That has serious implications for society.
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Old 8th September 2017, 06:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
We might find hardly anyone in the UK being religious in a few years. Other than people who were born overseas and their children. That has serious implications for society.
OMG, sharia law!
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Old 8th September 2017, 06:57 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
OMG, sharia law!
Sooner or later, sure.
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Old 9th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Guardian
Humanists UK said the figures raised fresh questions about the place of churches in running state schools and their other privileges.
I'm surprised one big privilege went unnamed: what about the Spiritual Lords?

ETA: OK, the article mentions it a few paras up.
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Old 9th September 2017, 08:25 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
We might find hardly anyone in the UK being religious in a few years. Other than people who were born overseas and their children. That has serious implications for society.
That doesn't hold. The CofE is rapidly declining - but that was a church were belief in God was optional to begin with, including amongst the clergy. However, according to wiki, the number of "other christian" has increased from 14 to 17% between 2009 and 2015 in the BSA. Those are mainly the orthodox protestants and evangelicals, and they're not dying out any soon.
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Old 9th September 2017, 08:58 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
OMG, sharia law!
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sooner or later, sure.
Not unless you can think of some reason why only religious people will get to make the laws.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:22 PM   #11
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Yes it's a common idea that we need another religion like Christianity, as a bastion against the the overwhelming of our society by Islam.
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Old 9th September 2017, 02:39 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That doesn't hold. The CofE is rapidly declining - but that was a church were belief in God was optional to begin with, including amongst the clergy. However, according to wiki, the number of "other christian" has increased from 14 to 17% between 2009 and 2015 in the BSA. Those are mainly the orthodox protestants and evangelicals, and they're not dying out any soon.
The increase in other religions does not make up for fall in others. This paragraph is very good. It is even better when it says that the young are mostly no religion.

Quote:
More generally, 53% of all adults describe themselves as having no religious affiliation, up from 48% in 2015. The latest figure is the highest since the BSA survey began tracking religious affiliation in 1983, when 31% said they had no religion.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes it's a common idea that we need another religion like Christianity, as a bastion against the the overwhelming of our society by Islam.
How common is this idea?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
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Old 9th September 2017, 10:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
We might find hardly anyone in the UK being religious in a few years. Other than people who were born overseas and their children. That has serious implications for society.
What serious implications?
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:36 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How common is this idea?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

Well I have heard some make this claim and Sideroxylon's and your post seem to imply it.

Couldn't put a figure on it though and mind you, is there a value of percentage that makes it common? You may have a handle on this, I don't.
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Old 10th September 2017, 03:44 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes it's a common idea that we need another religion like Christianity, as a bastion against the the overwhelming of our society by Islam.
That's what the Christian Right likes to believe. That's the function of dangerous aliens and outsiders in hierarchical societies. To be a "danger" and thereby to validate the existing power structure.

There's as much chance of our society being overwhelmed by Islam as there was of mediaeval Christendom being overwhelmed by Jews. More recently we were in danger of being overwhelmed by commies. Remember that? Now it's Islam.
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Old 10th September 2017, 04:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
We might find hardly anyone in the UK being religious in a few years. Other than people who were born overseas and their children. That has serious implications for society.
Agreed - which is why I, a really old fogey who voted remain, say retain the basic background CofE status until something humanist/atheist culture* is strong enough to withstand the pressure which will come from other beliefs and systems.

*can't think of a better word here
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Old 10th September 2017, 11:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The increase in other religions does not make up for fall in others. This paragraph is very good. It is even better when it says that the young are mostly no religion.
Yes, you're right. But the exodus from the CofE (and the RCC as well, I guess) goes both ways: the greater part leaves the church to become irreligious, or weren't really religious in the first place; but the smaller part goes to orthodox protestant or evangelical outfits. While the category "atheist" grows, the category "devoted christian" also grows.

Your claim was that in a few decades, religion would vanish, and I don't think that will happen. You'll see a polarization in religion: wishy-washy, moderate, cafetaria-by-design religions like CofE will vanish and you'll only see orthodox believers and atheists. We've seen the same in the Netherlands, where the mainstream, moderate Dutch reformed church has been in freefall since the 1920s, while the various (ultra) orthodox reformed churches have held their own in percentage and some of them are even slightly growing (see this table in the Dutch wiki).
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Old 10th September 2017, 12:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
.......... you'll only see orthodox believers and atheists.........
Fine, but it's the proportions who fall into each camp which is of interest. If there are 50% in each camp it would be a very different country compared with, say 90% atheists and a few die-hard religious folks clinging on in more and more fundamentalist communities. So long as the CofE get to control a significant proportion of state schooling, and those schools have a say in their intake policy, there will be a significant over-reporting of religiosity amongst parents of school age children.
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Old 10th September 2017, 02:48 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Fine, but it's the proportions who fall into each camp which is of interest. If there are 50% in each camp it would be a very different country compared with, say 90% atheists and a few die-hard religious folks clinging on in more and more fundamentalist communities.
Oh yes, I wholeheartedly agree, and I think we both also agree that it's good it'll be closer to the 90/10 mark than the 50/50 mark. My bet is that it'll be like 80/20, but that's neither here nor there.

An interesting effect of that may be that you'll see various disparate religions clinging together to lobby for a place for religion in society at all. Maybe we'll hear arguments that six-armed, elephant-headed Vishnu is really the same guy as Allah-who-may-not-be-depicted.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So long as the CofE get to control a significant proportion of state schooling, and those schools have a say in their intake policy, there will be a significant over-reporting of religiosity amongst parents of school age children.
How does that work in England? A couple of questions:
1) do parents who want to sign up their children to CofE school have to declare themselves to be CofE as well? I get that "my husband is Hindu, I'm Taoist so we decided as a compromise to raise our kid CofE" is not very credible, but "I'm atheist but my wife is CofE so we raise our kid CofE as well" is eminently credible.
2) is it a problem to lie to the school you're CofE while telling the BSA interviewer you're atheist? The BSA is anonymous, I may hope?
3) is this a common problem? Are CofE schools better funded / better quality / better reputation than public (*) schools that many non-CofE parents want to enlist their kids there?

(*) What's the proper word here? I mean "public" in the American sense of "secular state schools", not in the traditional British sense of "Eton-like boarding schools that charge tuition fees higher than an average wage".
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Old 10th September 2017, 02:53 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What serious implications?
You serious? There has been massive changes in society because religion is losing influence in society. For example
- weekend trading and other weekend activities
- homosexuals are now legal and accepted in society
- ditto to other minorities
- ok to get married outside of the church.


Maybe in the future this trend will continue such as private schools may not be mostly religious schools. Politicians will say they are atheist. We already had one PM in Australia who was atheist.
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Old 10th September 2017, 03:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
You serious? There has been massive changes in society because religion is losing influence in society. For example
- weekend trading and other weekend activities
- homosexuals are now legal and accepted in society
- ditto to other minorities
- ok to get married outside of the church.


Maybe in the future this trend will continue such as private schools may not be mostly religious schools. Politicians will say they are atheist. We already had one PM in Australia who was atheist.
More than one. Hawkie was (is) out atheist as well.
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Old 10th September 2017, 09:38 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
How does that work in England? A couple of questions:
I'm childless so there will be others who can give you more knowledgeable answers, but here's my understanding.

Quote:
1) do parents who want to sign up their children to CofE school have to declare themselves to be CofE as well? I get that "my husband is Hindu, I'm Taoist so we decided as a compromise to raise our kid CofE" is not very credible, but "I'm atheist but my wife is CofE so we raise our kid CofE as well" is eminently credible.
Just as people who want to get married in church usually attend a few services first (often for the first time in decades) those who want to send their child to a church run school do the same to give the impression that they really are sort of religious, honest.

Quote:
2) is it a problem to lie to the school you're CofE while telling the BSA interviewer you're atheist? The BSA is anonymous, I may hope?
It's not a problem unless it grates on your conscience to lie.

Quote:
3) is this a common problem? Are CofE schools better funded / better quality / better reputation than public (*) schools that many non-CofE parents want to enlist their kids there?
It's certainly widely believed that church run schools are better quality than other state schools. Schools publish their exam results and are ranked, so there's presumably data to back that up.

Quote:
(*) What's the proper word here? I mean "public" in the American sense of "secular state schools", not in the traditional British sense of "Eton-like boarding schools that charge tuition fees higher than an average wage".
State school is the correct term. State schools are free. Public schools, as you say, are fee paying.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
More than one. Hawkie was (is) out atheist as well.
He was atheist until he became PM. Though I suspect his religion was more for PR purposes than anything else.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:14 AM   #25
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Looked up the facts on the Internet

Quote:
Julia Gillard is the fifth Australian prime minister to publicly admit to not believing in a Christian God, after John Curtin, John Gorton, Gough Whitlam and Bob Hawke (an agnostic). Ms Gillard told news.com.au that, over Easter, she will be spending some time with family in Adelaide.
Quote:
More than 80 per cent of the federal politicians who responded said they believed in God and would be attending at least one church service this weekend.

Ref: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/do-...a5af05fe5bcba2

Edit. Yet about 50% of Australians have no religion and even fewer attend church or other place of worship.

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Old 11th September 2017, 01:16 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
You serious? There has been massive changes in society because religion is losing influence in society. For example
- weekend trading and other weekend activities
- homosexuals are now legal and accepted in society
- ditto to other minorities
- ok to get married outside of the church.


Maybe in the future this trend will continue such as private schools may not be mostly religious schools. Politicians will say they are atheist. We already had one PM in Australia who was atheist.
You said there are serious implications. Those things have already happened, and the UK is still nominally a Christian country with an established religion. It's been OK to get married outside a church for over 150 years. What are the serious implications?
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Old 11th September 2017, 03:17 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Oh yes, I wholeheartedly agree, and I think we both also agree that it's good it'll be closer to the 90/10 mark than the 50/50 mark. My bet is that it'll be like 80/20, but that's neither here nor there.

An interesting effect of that may be that you'll see various disparate religions clinging together to lobby for a place for religion in society at all. Maybe we'll hear arguments that six-armed, elephant-headed Vishnu is really the same guy as Allah-who-may-not-be-depicted.


How does that work in England? A couple of questions:
1) do parents who want to sign up their children to CofE school have to declare themselves to be CofE as well? I get that "my husband is Hindu, I'm Taoist so we decided as a compromise to raise our kid CofE" is not very credible, but "I'm atheist but my wife is CofE so we raise our kid CofE as well" is eminently credible.
2) is it a problem to lie to the school you're CofE while telling the BSA interviewer you're atheist? The BSA is anonymous, I may hope?
3) is this a common problem? Are CofE schools better funded / better quality / better reputation than public (*) schools that many non-CofE parents want to enlist their kids there?

(*) What's the proper word here? I mean "public" in the American sense of "secular state schools", not in the traditional British sense of "Eton-like boarding schools that charge tuition fees higher than an average wage".
My kid goes to a CofE school here (its a good school and there weren't any non CofE choices nearby anyway) and I was never really asked nor had to lie about my religion to get in. Catholic schools use religion in prioritising applicants but, my experience at least, is that CofE schools don't. A number of kids of mixed ethnicity/religion there too.

I'd much prefer to send my kid to a non religious school but no real complaints about the way things are handled there. The religion is present but not overkill and its presented some good opportunities to get her thinking about whether this stuff makes sense.
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:03 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The increase in other religions does not make up for fall in others. This paragraph is very good. It is even better when it says that the young are mostly no religion.
I´m afraid this only counts for the UK (and perhaps some other "advanced" countries too). Worldwide, the increase (or birthrate) of other religions is expected to drown the increase of atheism. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...hrate-20-years
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You said there are serious implications. Those things have already happened, and the UK is still nominally a Christian country with an established religion. It's been OK to get married outside a church for over 150 years. What are the serious implications?
These things have already happened yes. They have changed society. One correction to your quote. 100 years ago it would be rare to get married outside of the church. Now it is common to do so. But the trend towards more people being atheist continues. So more changes will happen. I make no predictions on exactly what the changes will be. It is not important. The only important thing is that changes will continue to happen. People will question "why do we do things this way?" The answer they realise is for religious reasons. So people then make changes.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:30 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...titudes-survey

Yee-ha!

There's hope for us yet - especially once all those old fogey, brexit voting, god-bothering, jingoistic, bastards die off...

Ironically, the young migrant workers the oldies get so worked up about tend to be more religious than our home-grown young people.
Thats progress. The world will be so much better without silly superstitions.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm childless so there will be others who can give you more knowledgeable answers, but here's my understanding.
Thank you for nevertheless bothering to answer!
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Just as people who want to get married in church usually attend a few services first (often for the first time in decades) those who want to send their child to a church run school do the same to give the impression that they really are sort of religious, honest.

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It's not a problem unless it grates on your conscience to lie.
The "lie" (or exaggeration of their religiosity) would be in pretending to be CofE, not in the filling out of the BSA. The context was that MikeG's comment implied that he worried that atheist parents sending their kids to CofE schools would inflate CofE numbers in the statistics. That, then would involve a double "lie": first to the school, next to the BSA.
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
State school is the correct term. State schools are free. Public schools, as you say, are fee paying.
I'll do my best to remember it (fingers crossed).
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
My kid goes to a CofE school here (its a good school and there weren't any non CofE choices nearby anyway) and I was never really asked nor had to lie about my religion to get in. Catholic schools use religion in prioritising applicants but, my experience at least, is that CofE schools don't. A number of kids of mixed ethnicity/religion there too.

I'd much prefer to send my kid to a non religious school but no real complaints about the way things are handled there. The religion is present but not overkill and its presented some good opportunities to get her thinking about whether this stuff makes sense.
Thank you!

We have a similar situation in the Netherlands where, due to a political compromise in 1917, Christian schools, and also anthroposophical, Montessori and a host of other flavors, get equal financing, and thus around 2/3 of the schools are nominally religiously based. But since decades, not much is apparent of their religion, at least with the catholic and moderate protestant ones. And yes, when you live in a town with traditionally 90+% catholics, and you're atheist, you suck it up and send your kid to the local catholic school.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:29 PM   #32
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Sorry, ddt, I didn't see your question. Pixel42 has answered it rather well. I'll just add that the terms public school and private school are rather confused here, with both being terms for a fee paying school.

I know nothing of the methodology of collecting the data in the report we are discussing.
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Old 11th September 2017, 02:56 PM   #33
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It's often confusing that England calls private schools 'public schools' but of course the reason is that they've been called that for a very long time; long before there were state schools and universal education. So a public school was where, so long as they could pay, any member of the public could have their sons educated as an alternative to hiring tutors to educate them at home.
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:01 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Sorry, ddt, I didn't see your question. Pixel42 has answered it rather well. I'll just add that the terms public school and private school are rather confused here, with both being terms for a fee paying school.
No prob. And yes, it's confusing.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I know nothing of the methodology of collecting the data in the report we are discussing.
According to wiki, the BSA does in-depth interviews with a representative sample of the population.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It's often confusing that England calls private schools 'public schools' but of course the reason is that they've been called that for a very long time; long before there were state schools and universal education. So a public school was where, so long as they could pay, any member of the public could have their sons educated as an alternative to hiring tutors to educate them at home.
Thank you! Now it makes sense.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:18 AM   #35
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Mod Info The discussion about the parents removing their child from a school where a classmate was permitted to wear a dress has been split to here.
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Old 17th September 2017, 02:51 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes it's a common idea that we need another religion like Christianity, as a bastion against the the overwhelming of our society by Islam.
But it's not a rational belief. The best bastion again Christianity is secularism. Britain is no longer a Christian country and should stop acting as if it is ... non-adherence to a religion is the same as humanism or secularism and that's the majority position.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:44 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
...non-adherence to a religion is the same as humanism or secularism...
I think there are people who would debate that.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:47 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think there are people who would debate that.
If you are one of these people, let us have your views.
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Old 18th September 2017, 05:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
But it's not a rational belief. The best bastion again Christianity is secularism. Britain is no longer a Christian country and should stop acting as if it is ... non-adherence to a religion is the same as humanism or secularism and that's the majority position.
There are also religious people who favour a secular stance, at least when it comes to politics. Case in point: the American Founding Fathers.
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Old 18th September 2017, 02:08 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
But it's not a rational belief. The best bastion again Christianity is secularism. Britain is no longer a Christian country and should stop acting as if it is ... non-adherence to a religion is the same as humanism or secularism and that's the majority position.

No argument with that at all. The best bastion against Christianity, Islam, and any other kind of religious nonsense is secularism.

We must be non-discriminatory however when rallying against religion. We cannot ban Islamic schools whilst allowing Christian ones, and we cannot stop the erection of mosques when the ground is littered with churches.

I do not advocate pulling down churches as they are becoming less and less viable everyday and can be converted into restaurants and such. I have seen a few for sale in Australia.
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