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Old 18th September 2017, 04:37 PM   #41
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Good Lord, first they stopped believing in God, now half of them don't even believe in the Queen?

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Old 18th September 2017, 11:20 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
........I do not advocate pulling down churches as they are becoming less and less viable everyday and can be converted into restaurants and such. I have seen a few for sale in Australia.
Many, many churches here in the UK have been de-sanctified and sold for other uses, including conversion to houses. Many more are unused. However, I warrant the biggest category is "under-used", with irregular services attended by a handful of old people. That is the case with both the village I live in now, and the one I lived in previously for 20 years. One vicar covers 4, 5 or 6 parishes, and takes the services around each of the churches in turn. The same 8 or 10 people go and sit in the front pews of a different church each week, freezing, as their donations don't cover the cost of heating.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:57 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If you are one of these people, let us have your views.
The basic argument would be that both humanism and secularism have positive definitions, while nonreligion is merely the lack of something. Humanism is a specific philosophy that has its own set of principles, while secularism is the policy that religion and government should not mix. You can be nonreligious without being a humanist, and you can - at a stretch I admit - be nonreligious without being a proponent of secularism.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We must be non-discriminatory however when rallying against religion. We cannot ban Islamic schools whilst allowing Christian ones, and we cannot stop the erection of mosques when the ground is littered with churches.
To the extent that religion needs to be rallied against at all (I would personally say that the excesses of religion need to be rallied against, where they conflict with modern societal attitudes), I agree.
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Old 19th September 2017, 01:31 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You can be nonreligious without being a humanist, and you can - at a stretch I admit - be nonreligious without being a proponent of secularism.
More to the point, it is quite possible to be a secularist yet subscribe to a religion.

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Old 19th September 2017, 02:24 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
More to the point, it is quite possible to be a secularist yet subscribe to a religion.

Dave
That goes without saying as Secularism is just not allowing anyone's religious beliefs to impinge on the running of public affairs. This weekend in a Scottish Sunday paper (the Sunday Mail) a survey showed that the proportion of people in Scotland who professed no religion had risen to 74%, nearly 3/4 of the population. Apart from a wedding, a funeral or a watchnight service I haven't attended a church service in 45 years.
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Old 19th September 2017, 03:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
.....a watchnight service.....
What's one of those?
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Old 19th September 2017, 03:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
What's one of those?
Late Christmas eve carol service.
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Old 19th September 2017, 01:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The basic argument would be that both humanism and secularism have positive definitions, while nonreligion is merely the lack of something. Humanism is a specific philosophy that has its own set of principles, while secularism is the policy that religion and government should not mix. You can be nonreligious without being a humanist, and you can - at a stretch I admit - be nonreligious without being a proponent of secularism.

To the extent that religion needs to be rallied against at all (I would personally say that the excesses of religion need to be rallied against, where they conflict with modern societal attitudes), I agree.

As you must be acutely aware being religious but not letting your religious views influence your opinion and actions is unusual.

This is starkly obvious in Australia today as the debate rages over the same sex marriage issue. The Christians, almost to a man, stand shoulder to shoulder in opposition and have no moral compunction, against the spreading of vile misinformation to further their cause.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:51 AM   #49
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Whilst I regard this as good news, it's worth bearing in mind that putting "None" for your religion in no way means that you are an atheist or an agnostic. Or both, for that matter.

I'd wager a good many of the "Nones" would describe themselves as "spiritual" and have all sorts of new-agey beliefs about spirits and ghosts and reincarnation and other levels of consciousness or whatever.

I suspect those anticipating a move to a more secular, less superstitious society might be disappointed. We may instead end up with more examples along the lines of homeopathy being offered on the NHS.
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Old 20th September 2017, 07:00 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Not unless you can think of some reason why only religious people will get to make the laws.
I think the implication there is one of numbers.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Thats progress. The world will be so much better without silly superstitions.
"No religious affiliation" doesn't mean "no supernatural beliefs".
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:23 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Whilst I regard this as good news, it's worth bearing in mind that putting "None" for your religion in no way means that you are an atheist or an agnostic. Or both, for that matter.

I'd wager a good many of the "Nones" would describe themselves as "spiritual" and have all sorts of new-agey beliefs about spirits and ghosts and reincarnation and other levels of consciousness or whatever.
"Ietsists"
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:43 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I think the implication there is one of numbers...
Well, yes. That was my point too. The number of Muslims in the UK has gone up and the number of Christians has gone down, but even if there was eventually a time when there were more Muslims than any other single religion that wouldn't give them any special privileges to make laws for the rest of us.

The anachronistic historical privileges still afforded to the CofE aren't transferrable. There's no mechanism for the Lords Spiritual to be booted out and replaced with Imams.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:57 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The Christians, almost to a man, stand shoulder to shoulder in opposition...
This is not true.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...titudes-survey

Yee-ha!

There's hope for us yet - especially once all those old fogey, brexit voting, god-bothering, jingoistic, bastards die off...

Ironically, the young migrant workers the oldies get so worked up about tend to be more religious than our home-grown young people.
unfortunately I don't think the decline is probably due to people applying critical thinking skills. I'd bet a pound to a penny that many of the no religious affiliation group still believe in spirits, life after death, angels, crystal healing, magnetic bracelets, fortune telling, alternative medicine etc etc etc. The population is still just as gullible and I'm not entirely sure belief in all the crap just mentioned is better than organized religion. At least some organized religions (not all and not all of the time) bring about a sense of community and local unity. (I am an atheist, and I would like to see organized religions disappear, but because people are using critical thinking skills, not because they think the church is old fashioned and out of date with the times - which they mostly are )
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:28 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It's certainly widely believed that church run schools are better quality than other state schools. Schools publish their exam results and are ranked, so there's presumably data to back that up.
This is true in that it is widely believed, but not necessarily true that they are.

See here

and also from freakanomics I think it was, children who's parents care about their education tend to ensure they get their child into a school they believe is better if they can, which tends to be religious schools. So religious schools tend to get better pupils in the first place.
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Old 21st September 2017, 02:48 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
....... So religious schools tend to get better pupils in the first place.
Which is why most schools measure "value added".....ie how much they increase the results of pupils from intake to leaving. Unfortunately, these aren't government mandated statistics, so they don't get published.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:06 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Interesting. Perhaps it's the dogma of the Church of England.

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Old 21st September 2017, 07:17 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, yes. That was my point too. The number of Muslims in the UK has gone up and the number of Christians has gone down, but even if there was eventually a time when there were more Muslims than any other single religion that wouldn't give them any special privileges to make laws for the rest of us.
It really would. You don't think that a majority Muslim country wouldn't have Muslim judges on the supreme court and in government, so that they would interpret things based on their beliefs? Bye bye, gay marriage!
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:21 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It really would. You don't think that a majority Muslim country wouldn't have Muslim judges on the supreme court and in government, so that they would interpret things based on their beliefs? Bye bye, gay marriage!
My point is that there is no prospect of the UK becoming a majority Muslim country. Being the biggest religion in an irreligious country does not make you a majority.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It really would. You don't think that a majority Muslim country wouldn't have Muslim judges on the supreme court and in government, so that they would interpret things based on their beliefs? Bye bye, gay marriage!
Suppose 13% of the UK population were Muslims, 12% were Christians of various denominations, a total of 10% were of various other religions, and the remaining 65% were not of any religion. Would a country with that demographic be likely to vote itself to be subject to a law based on Muslim beliefs?

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Old 21st September 2017, 08:55 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Suppose 13% of the UK population were Muslims, 12% were Christians of various denominations, a total of 10% were of various other religions, and the remaining 65% were not of any religion. Would a country with that demographic be likely to vote itself to be subject to a law based on Muslim beliefs?
No. And?
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:10 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No. And?
And that's the sort of scenario we're looking at. I think a lot of people - and I mean people I know - think "OMG, there'll be more Muslims than Christians, they're taking over." It does not follow.

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Old 21st September 2017, 09:11 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And that's the sort of scenario we're looking at.
Is it? You might have noticed but we've had a pretty severe refugee crisis recently, and most of them wouldn't check "no religion" on a poll.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:31 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It really would. You don't think that a majority Muslim country wouldn't have Muslim judges on the supreme court and in government, so that they would interpret things based on their beliefs? Bye bye, gay marriage!
That depends on the legal tradition. Such a transformation does not happen overnight.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, that's not the scenario we're looking at.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Is it? You might have noticed but we've had a pretty severe refugee crisis recently, and most of them wouldn't check "no religion" on a poll.
They're still a drop in the bucket compared to the resident population. And they don't get to be citizens overnight either.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:33 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That depends on the legal tradition. Such a transformation does not happen overnight.
Irrelevant. I don't want a theocracy today or in a thousand years when I'm dead.

Quote:
They're still a drop in the bucket compared to the resident population.
A minority, but I wouldn't call millions of people a drop in the bucket.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:35 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Is it? You might have noticed but we've had a pretty severe refugee crisis recently, and most of them wouldn't check "no religion" on a poll.
And their total numbers as a fraction of the population? Nowhere near enough to make Islam the religion of the majority, even if it becomes the majority religion. The whole point is that the two are different. And even with the current rate of immigration, the percentage of British citizens who check "no religion" continues to rise; we're the majority now, and our majority is increasing. I don't see that as grounds for panic.

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Old 21st September 2017, 09:36 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Irrelevant. I don't want a theocracy today or in a thousand years when I'm dead.
Then the fact that those of no religion are in the majority and their proportion of the population is still increasing is surely a good thing.

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Old 21st September 2017, 09:37 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And their total numbers as a fraction of the population? Nowhere near enough to make Islam the religion of the majority, even if it becomes the majority religion. The whole point is that the two are different. And even with the current rate of immigration, the percentage of British citizens who check "no religion" continues to rise; we're the majority now, and our majority is increasing. I don't see that as grounds for panic.
Who said anything about panic? I'm clarifying an argument Jack by the hedge made a comment on.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:43 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Who said anything about panic? I'm clarifying an argument Jack by the hedge made a comment on.
So am I. I'm pointing out that, as Jack by the Hedge correctly stated, it wouldn't give Muslims the right to make the law if there were more of them than any other religion; they would have to become the actual majority, rather than just the largest religion. We may be looking at the latter as a scenario, but based on current trends there is no reason to expect the former. The concept of "a majority Muslim country" isn't one that was being discussed in the thread until you brought it up, and the statistics from earlier in the thread show that current trends are clearly not going in the direction of the UK becoming a majority Muslim country.

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Old 21st September 2017, 10:38 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Is it? You might have noticed but we've had a pretty severe refugee crisis recently, and most of them wouldn't check "no religion" on a poll.
That's tiny amounts versus the overall population - doesn't seem like an 'Argumemnon' type comment either but maybe I'm reading too much into it...
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:45 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
That's tiny amounts versus the overall population
Again, I don't consider millions of people to be a tiny number, in any context.

Quote:
doesn't seem like an 'Argumemnon' type comment either but maybe I'm reading too much into it...
Huh?
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:28 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Again, I don't consider millions of people to be a tiny number, in any context.



Huh?
It read a bit xenophobic and that didn't seem like you. As I said, probably reading too much into it.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:32 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
It read a bit xenophobic and that didn't seem like you.
I don't think pointing out that too much immigration over a short period of time can cause problems, or that introducing a large number of people into a country that has different beliefs or values can cause problems, is xenophobic. The same'd be true if a bunch of posh brits migrated into Saudi Arabia.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:38 AM   #74
Ethan Thane Athen
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On the 'millions' bit, according to https://fullfact.org/immigration/uk-refugees/ last year there were 39,000 refugees / asylum seekers in the UK and, based on usual rates, around half would be turned down.

If you widen it to all immigrants that leaps to 600k so I guess 'millions' over a few years but 'immigrants' is a much wider definition and I don't think that's what you were referring to.

Happy to be corrected with more recent figures.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:43 AM   #75
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
On the 'millions' bit, according to https://fullfact.org/immigration/uk-refugees/ last year there were 39,000 refugees / asylum seekers in the UK and, based on usual rates, around half would be turned down.
I wasn't specifically talking about the UK, but in the general sense. Germany's had quite a bit of them in the last couple of years, for example. I don't think in the UK's case it's a serious consideration, though some are making the argument that it is.
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渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

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Old 21st September 2017, 11:48 AM   #76
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think pointing out that too much immigration over a short period of time can cause problems, or that introducing a large number of people into a country that has different beliefs or values can cause problems, is xenophobic. The same'd be true if a bunch of posh brits migrated into Saudi Arabia.
You referred to a refugee crisis earlier but now 'immigrants'. That wider definition would include people coming here to work or study (in fact that would be the majority).

In fairness I should also highlight a bit from the link I missed first time that uses a rough method to get an estimate of 123k for the number of refugees in the UK in 2015. Mind you, that's not the number arriving then but an overall total.

Going to leave it there as we're drifting off topic.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:49 AM   #77
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I wasn't specifically talking about the UK, but in the general sense. Germany's had quite a bit of them in the last couple of years, for example. I don't think in the UK's case it's a serious consideration, though some are making the argument that it is.
Ah, OK. I assumed you meant the UK as the thread had been about religion in the UK to that point. No worries.
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Old 21st September 2017, 11:51 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Ah, OK. I assumed you meant the UK as the thread had been about religion in the UK to that point. No worries.
Yeah I know, that's my fault for not making that clear.

Quote:
You referred to a refugee crisis earlier but now 'immigrants'.
Well, a large influx of immigrants is usually composed mostly of refugees. I'm guilty of using the two terms interchangeably sometimes, even though I understand the distinction.
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渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

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Old 21st September 2017, 11:55 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Again, I don't consider millions of people to be a tiny number, in any context.

Compared to the (approximately) 107,000,000,000 people that have ever lived, 2,000,000 is pretty much a tiny number.
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Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:08 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Compared to the (approximately) 107,000,000,000 people that have ever lived, 2,000,000 is pretty much a tiny number.
Yes, and also in the context of the Galactic Empire, but I'm sure you knew what I meant.
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