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Old 21st September 2017, 12:08 PM   #81
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah I know, that's my fault for not making that clear.



Well, a large influx of immigrants is usually composed mostly of refugees. I'm guilty of using the two terms interchangeably sometimes, even though I understand the distinction.
If I'm reading the article I linked to correctly then 39,000 refugees / asylum seekers out of 600k immigrants to UK in 2016, so not in that case, but I understand now you were talking in a more general sense.

Anyway, yay to less religion in the UK!

Last edited by Ethan Thane Athen; 21st September 2017 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:44 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think pointing out that too much immigration over a short period of time can cause problems, or that introducing a large number of people into a country that has different beliefs or values can cause problems, is xenophobic. The same'd be true if a bunch of posh brits migrated into Saudi Arabia.
That much is certainly true, and it seems to me also that some of the problems are as much to do with the reactions to immigration as to the behaviour of the immigrants themselves. But we don't appear even remotely close to being in danger at present of Islamic fundamentalist immigrants becoming the majority of UK voters and therefore having sufficient political power to enact legislation based on Islamic dogma.

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Old 21st September 2017, 02:28 PM   #83
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Just had another look at the article linked by Ethan in the OP and lifted this:


Quote:
Paul Bayes, the bishop of Liverpool, said the BSA figures “bring a continuing challenge to the churches, to speak clearly of our faith into a sceptical and plural world”.

He said: “In this modern world people are more willing to be honest and say they have ‘no religion’ rather than casually saying they are ‘C of E’. This honesty is welcome … But saying ‘no religion’ is not the same as a considered atheism. People’s minds, and hearts, remain open.

I would have assumed that saying 'no religion' meant the same as saying 'no belief in any god like entity' which equals atheism. Could be a little clutching at straws is going on here. The good bishop thinks these poor lost souls can still be reeled in perhaps.

On the other hand some folk seem to think there is something a bit extreme implied when the term atheist is used, as if it's something more than just not being theist.

The bishop also said something about getting more clergy, (from Africa like the RC's perhaps?), and getting into some evangelising. Look out you Brits you're going to get the Anglicans knocking on your door as well as the JW's and Mormons soon.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:24 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just had another look at the article linked by Ethan in the OP and lifted this:





I would have assumed that saying 'no religion' meant the same as saying 'no belief in any god like entity' which equals atheism. Could be a little clutching at straws is going on here. The good bishop thinks these poor lost souls can still be reeled in perhaps.

On the other hand some folk seem to think there is something a bit extreme implied when the term atheist is used, as if it's something more than just not being theist.

The bishop also said something about getting more clergy, (from Africa like the RC's perhaps?), and getting into some evangelising. Look out you Brits you're going to get the Anglicans knocking on your door as well as the JW's and Mormons soon.
He's basically admitting most of them never believed anyway. In terms of 'Atheist' I think people associate the term with strong, active atheists these days rather than the wider meaning of the term. For many, religion is just irrelevant rather than having strong views on it - if I were religious I'd probably find that even more threatening than those who actually argue against it, as at least they are engaged in the debate - unfortunately I just can't stop myself
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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:56 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

I would have assumed that saying 'no religion' meant the same as saying 'no belief in any god like entity' which equals atheism.
Let us be a little less optimistic.
According the Eurobarometer 2005 only 20% of British people declared to believe in a god. But only 20% declared to be atheistic. The remaining 60% declared to believe in a “spirit or vital force” (p. 9). Even if the question submitted was not very clear, our reasons to be optimistic about the increase of rational thought are not strongly supported in facts.

We can be (a little) more optimistic in seeing the decline in church attendance, because this implies a liberation from religious authority, but this doesn't necessarily implies that irreligious people -in that sense- would be more independent in their judgement. Other dependences from irrational gurus are possible and unfortunately common.

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Old 24th September 2017, 12:14 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I would have assumed that saying 'no religion' meant the same as saying 'no belief in any god like entity' which equals atheism.
Unjustified assumption. A person who claims no religion could be agnostic, or apatheist, or "spiritual but not religious" or any one of a number of positions that are not atheism.
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Old 24th September 2017, 12:19 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Let us be a little less optimistic.
According the Eurobarometer 2005 only 20% of British people declared to believe in a god. But only 20% declared to be atheistic. The remaining 60% declared to believe in a “spirit or vital force” (p. 9). Even if the question submitted was not very clear, our reasons to be optimistic about the increase of rational thought are not strongly supported in facts.

We can be (a little) more optimistic in seeing the decline in church attendance, because this implies a liberation from religious authority, but this doesn't necessarily implies that irreligious people -in that sense- would be more independent in their judgement. Other dependences from irrational gurus are possible and unfortunately common.
You know that's 12 years out of date (and poorly worded, as you acknowledge).

The annual British Social Attitudes Survey, a huge operation, has covered religion since its inception. Here is a summary of their 2013 report on the subject, at the Humanist Society.

Some extracts:
Quote:
50.6% of the population regarded themselves as belonging to no religion in 2013, up from 47.7% in 2012. Only 41.7% defined themselves as Christian and just 16.3% as Anglicans, both lowest ever figures.
This marked decline in religiosity comes despite only 19.1% of respondents in 2013 saying that they had been bought up in a non-religious household.
Only 24% of respondents saw Christianity as an important element of national identity in 2013, down from 32% in 1995 and 31% in 2003.
62.4% of the population never attend religious services and meetings, whilst only 13.1% go once a week or more.
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Old 24th September 2017, 09:45 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You know that's 12 years out of date (and poorly worded, as you acknowledge).

The annual British Social Attitudes Survey, a huge operation, has covered religion since its inception. Here is a summary of their 2013 report on the subject, at the Humanist Society.
My concern was not about the ratio of religious and non-religious people but about the importance of superstition among those that declare to be irreligious. Perhaps you know some post-2005 survey on this issue.

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Old 25th September 2017, 02:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
My concern was not about the ratio of religious and non-religious people but about the importance of superstition among those that declare to be irreligious. Perhaps you know some post-2005 survey on this issue.
I'm not so worried. What is most worrying is the power of institutional religious structure, giving rise to the Inquisition, or bishops in the House of Lords, and that is diminishing.

People who think that gnomes can help them win the lottery are off their nut, but less disquieting.
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Old 25th September 2017, 02:39 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
My concern was not about the ratio of religious and non-religious people but about the importance of superstition among those that declare to be irreligious. Perhaps you know some post-2005 survey on this issue.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I'm not so worried. What is most worrying is the power of institutional religious structure, giving rise to the Inquisition, or bishops in the House of Lords, and that is diminishing.

People who think that gnomes can help them win the lottery are off their nut, but less disquieting.
There have been other recent threads on similar issues. The OP of two of them are below. It suggests that nutters of almost any flavour are finding it harder to earn money. If you do not already have a career in the business then it is almost impossible to get one.

Though the counter to that is Donald Trump. Won an election by making stupid statements.



Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
Even the unsupported claims by psychics of being directly hired by public police agencies has now dwindled to only 1 claim in 2016 across North America. And this claim of "working with police" still came with a refusal to provide a police contact or even the agency name. And that 2016 case was based in Toronto, Ontario where local agencies already discourage families in hiring psychics. So strike up just one unsubstantiated fluff piece.

Indeed, where families have brought in psychics themselves police agencies for the 4th year continued to actually increase the distance between their investigations and "police psychic detectives."

TV police psychic detective actress Noreen Renier turns 80 on January 16th --- and joins several colleagues of the 60's/70's/80's era that popularized TV shows of psychic detectives --- now all only fading 25-35 year old syndicated TV reruns and Facebook excerpt clips. Clicks on such sites average about 0.05% of the media audience of 25 years ago. The literal "die-out" of this delusional group and the hype they created continues at a rapid pace. Not surprising.
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
It's only a month till the next anniversary of the 9/11 tragedy rolls in. Of course we expect the millions that have woken up since last year to join the millions already awake in 2016 to join all the rallies, sit-ins, conferences, marches, prayers etc. that demand a new investigation, right?

Perhaps they kicked me off their mailing list, but I have not received a newsletter from AE911Truth since June.
Nor can I find any thrilling events organized by Gage and his minions on their webpage (last news entry: June also)
Nothing on Facebook.

I have not seen any event scheduled for September 11 on 911Blogger

And even the 911TAP event calendar is empty, except for a monthly conference call: https://www.911tap.org/9-11-tap-even...alendar/2017/9


What a mighty Movement this is!
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Old 25th September 2017, 02:49 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
There have been other recent threads on similar issues. The OP of two of them are below. It suggests that nutters of almost any flavour are finding it harder to earn money. If you do not already have a career in the business then it is almost impossible to get one.

Though the counter to that is Donald Trump. Won an election by making stupid statements.
In addition to your pertinent examples there is the steep decline in UFO stories.

But what I most wish to see is the eclipse of the idiotic evangelical fundamentalism still so prevalent in the USA, because that has the features both of an official state religion and superstitious nuttery, at one and the same time
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Old 25th September 2017, 02:52 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I'm not so worried. What is most worrying is the power of institutional religious structure, giving rise to the Inquisition, or bishops in the House of Lords, and that is diminishing.

People who think that gnomes can help them win the lottery are off their nut, but less disquieting.
You are right in the essential, but people that preach homeopathy against cancer -or similar- are not exactly negligible.

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Old 25th September 2017, 04:43 AM   #93
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Cool

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
People who think that gnomes can help them win the lottery are off their nut, but less disquieting.
You mean that wee guy at the bottom of the garden was lying to me? Damn that's £2 wasted this weekend then!
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Old 26th September 2017, 03:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Unjustified assumption. A person who claims no religion could be agnostic, or apatheist, or "spiritual but not religious" or any one of a number of positions that are not atheism.

This has been argued to death elsewhere. Atheism simply means not a theist.

atheist
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods: he is a committed atheist.

An agnostic lacks belief in gods also.

I think you may have meant apantheist as distinct from pantheist.

pantheism
noun [ mass noun ]
1 a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
2 the worship or tolerance of many gods.


"spiritual but not religious" .... never did see a plausible explanation of this one.
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Old 26th September 2017, 03:09 PM   #95
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Since we're talking about what people claim, rather than an objective definition, your arguing by dictionary is rather irrelevant.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:06 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Since we're talking about what people claim, rather than an objective definition, your arguing by dictionary is rather irrelevant.

Ah yes, the old "This word can mean whatever I want it to mean argument" I suppose.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:29 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Ah yes, the old "This word can mean whatever I want it to mean argument" I suppose.
No, what you're doing is the strawman argument. Arthwollipot pointed out that a person who claims to have no religion may fall into one of several categories; you responded with the non sequitur that the word "atheist" has a particular definition, which has no relevance to the point Arthwollipot made. I know he's capable of pointing this out himself, but it's equally obvious to anyone else.

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Old 26th September 2017, 07:28 PM   #98
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None of the above four posts above address the issues raised by the posts they are responding to. I think you are actually agreeing with each other, but saying you disagree.

A person who claims no religion may not be an atheist. This is what arthwollipot pointed out previously. There was a campaign to tell people in Australia when filling in the census that if you do not go to church regularly then say no religion. This does not mean you are an atheist.

Ref: http://censusnoreligion.org.au/

Edit. The above reference says
Quote:
According to the ABS Census Dictionary, 2011 agnosticism, atheism, humanism and rationalism are recorded as sub-categories of 'No religion'. You might as well mark the box provided: 'No religion'.

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Old 26th September 2017, 11:43 PM   #99
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I agree that the problem is not the meaning of “non-believer” in a dictionary.
The very problem is the way the surveys present the questions and, above all, how people understand them. In Spain the rate of people that consider themselves as “Catholic” results broader than those that believe in God.

This is not the only space where confusion pervades surveys. Some brutal inconsistencies can be found in the ambit of surveys on politics or morality. But religion is specially the kingdom of confusion, ambiguity and vagueness.

Maybe many people that declare not to believe in God are thinking in a personal god with a beard and a white tunic. Maybe many people that declare to be Catholic are thinking in sociological terms. Maybe many people that declare not to be atheists think that to be an atheist is to be aggressive and child-eater.

In any case, declare “not to believe in God” doesn’t mean not to believe in the Spirit, the Universal Force, the karma, ghosts, fortune telling and other superstitions. What is positive is that this kind of superstition doesn’t easily lead to set up a church. What is negative is that they can lead to a perverse way to confront reality with definite damages.

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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:15 AM   #100
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A lot of people who aren't traditionally religious still suffer from IetsismWP: an unspecified belief in an undetermined transcendent force.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 01:24 PM   #101
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"Suffer"?
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Old 3rd October 2017, 01:37 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Halcyon Dayz View Post
A lot of people who aren't traditionally religious still suffer from IetsismWP: an unspecified belief in an undetermined transcendent force.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Suffer"?
A reasonable word to use. One definition is

Quote:
To have a specified shortcoming or weakness:
Ref:https://www.thefreedictionary.com/suffer
If they take any action on this belief it may be less than ideal action so they have a specified shortcoming or weakness.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 01:52 PM   #103
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Belief as a shortcoming or weakness. I see.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 03:23 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Halcyon Dayz View Post
A lot of people who aren't traditionally religious still suffer from IetsismWP: an unspecified belief in an undetermined transcendent force.
See post #51:
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
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Old 4th October 2017, 03:23 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Belief as a shortcoming or weakness. I see.

So we're talking about Ietsism here then.

- It can be a weakness I suppose if it causes fear.

- It can be a shortcoming if it leads someone to accept that some things are unexplainable and in the "God did it" basket, so further research is not pursued.
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:20 PM   #106
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It can be, but that's not the same as assuming that it always is.

I'm pretty sure I could think of situations where being heavily-muscled is a shortcoming too.
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:59 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It can be, but that's not the same as assuming that it always is.
I don't think rjh01 did that.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure I could think of situations where being heavily-muscled is a shortcoming too.
I'll file that away in the silly analogies folder.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:10 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I don't think rjh01 did that.
rjh01 clarified, but it was Halcyon Dayz who said

Originally Posted by Halcyon Dayz View Post
A lot of people who aren't traditionally religious still suffer from IetsismWP: an unspecified belief in an undetermined transcendent force.
Which uses the word "suffer" to describe people who subscribe to a religious (or quasi-religious) belief. That is the usage that I originally questioned.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I'll file that away in the silly analogies folder.
*shrug* I might say that a lot of bodybuilders suffer from huge muscles. Does it make any more sense?

I don't think religious (or quasi-religious) belief is something that one suffers from. It's something that one possesses or subscribes to. Suffer is the wrong verb because it assumes that religious belief is a shortcoming or weakness.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:30 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
rjh01 clarified, but it was Halcyon Dayz who said
Yes I am aware of that but Halcyon Dayz said "some people" not all people.


Quote:
Which uses the word "suffer" to describe people who subscribe to a religious (or quasi-religious) belief. That is the usage that I originally questioned.

*shrug* I might say that a lot of bodybuilders suffer from huge muscles. Does it make any more sense?
Not much to be honest.

Quote:
I don't think religious (or quasi-religious) belief is something that one suffers from. It's something that one possesses or subscribes to. Suffer is the wrong verb because it assumes that religious belief is a shortcoming or weakness.
What, not ever! Now who is making sweeping statements?

Religion is generally, (mostly but not always), something one is given as a result of ones geographical location. Would you describe that felt by those who get nailed to crosses in The Philippines something other than suffering?

I know this is an extreme example, but could point to many others where religious folk suffer from considerable anguish, as a result of religious belief. I was one of these.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:47 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I am aware of that but Halcyon Dayz said "some people" not all people.
Which misses the point of my argument. The verb makes the assumption, not the person who used it.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What, not ever! Now who is making sweeping statements?
Suffering from actions taken as a result of one's religious belief is not the same as suffering from a religious belief.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Religion is generally, (mostly but not always), something one is given as a result of ones geographical location. Would you describe that felt by those who get nailed to crosses in The Philippines something other than suffering?
I would say that they are suffering from pain, and suffering from no small amount of stupidity for doing it in the first place, but they are suffering from the results of the religious belief, not from the belief itself. Do you really want to push me into nitpicking like this? I don't think it's a particularly productive use of my time.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I know this is an extreme example, but could point to many others where religious folk suffer from considerable anguish, as a result of religious belief. I was one of these.
Thank you for sharing. I could equally point to many people whose religious belief is a tremendous source of peace and comfort. Both would be equally pointless, because both would be generalisations.

I pointed out that I don't think that suffer is an appropriate verb, because for some people it isn't a shortcoming or weakness. And your counter is "well for some people it is" and I reply "well for some people it isn't" and you say "well for some people it is" and I say "well for some people it isn't" and we could go back and forth pointlessly for hours.

Let's not do that.
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Old 5th October 2017, 05:03 PM   #111
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Ah yes. When you find yourself on the losing end of an argument split hairs and cloud the issue.

The fact remains that you made the all inclusive statement with:

"I don't think religious (or quasi-religious) belief is something that one suffers from."

Where as Halcyon Dayz, rjh01, and myself were saying "some".
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Old 6th October 2017, 11:50 AM   #112
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Believes not based on evidence are irrational and often counter-productive.
Yes, they are an affliction.
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Old 6th October 2017, 05:15 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Ah yes. When you find yourself on the losing end of an argument split hairs and cloud the issue.

The fact remains that you made the all inclusive statement with:

"I don't think religious (or quasi-religious) belief is something that one suffers from."

Where as Halcyon Dayz, rjh01, and myself were saying "some".
Woah, did you see that? I think it was my point.
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