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Old 10th October 2017, 05:01 PM   #41
jaydeehess
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Oh, oh , pick me.
Someone may have said this already but....

Many, maybe even most, are batcrap crazy
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Old 10th October 2017, 09:29 PM   #42
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A desperate desire to find someone else to blame other than themselves for their failings in life.
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:50 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
A desperate desire to find someone else to blame other than themselves for their failings in life.
Actually true. Well, that's certainly part of it, anyway.

Quote:
It has been noted that individuals who endorse conspiracy theories are likely to be higher in powerlessness, social isolation and anomia, which is broadly defined as a subjective disengagement from social norms.

Such disengagement from the normative social order may result in greater conspiratorial thinking for a number of related reasons. First, individuals who feel alienated may consequently reject conventional explanations of events, as they reject the legitimacy of the source of these explanations. Due to these individuals feeling alienated from their peers, they may also turn to conspiracist groups for a sense of belonging and community, or to marginalised subcultures in which conspiracy theories are potentially more rife.

People who feel powerless may also endorse conspiracy theories as they also help the individual avoid blame for their predicament. In this sense, conspiracy theories give a sense of meaning, security and control over an unpredictable and dangerous world. Finally, and most simply, conspiracy beliefs which imply a level of Machiavellianism and power enacted by those without fixed morality are most likely to resonate with people who feel powerless and believe that society lacks norms.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/archiv...4Hg1k.facebook
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Old 11th October 2017, 10:33 PM   #44
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I should add that none of the conspiracy theory buffs I knew (including me) never though of themselves as CTists. Some think they're crusaders acting on hidden knowledge that the sheeple are too blind/dumb to see. Others just have a world view dependent on the belief that some hidden huge organization is behind the world's ills. Some if it is "Daddy Issues", where they have an irrational distrust of authority of any kind. For certain ethnic groups it's part of their history: African-Americans suffered under segregation - an actual conspiracy, Armenians, who can't even get their genocide recognized by many western countries (including the US), and Russians, who seem to be born paranoid, and or learn it quickly from their government.
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Old 12th October 2017, 12:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I should add that none of the conspiracy theory buffs I knew (including me) never though of themselves as CTists. Some think they're crusaders acting on hidden knowledge that the sheeple are too blind/dumb to see. Others just have a world view dependent on the belief that some hidden huge organization is behind the world's ills. Some if it is "Daddy Issues", where they have an irrational distrust of authority of any kind. For certain ethnic groups it's part of their history: African-Americans suffered under segregation - an actual conspiracy, Armenians, who can't even get their genocide recognized by many western countries (including the US), and Russians, who seem to be born paranoid, and or learn it quickly from their government.

That can be a two way street, ie irrational trust/defense of corrupt authority. Deny corruption. Victims defending the corrupt "parent" rather than face the painful truth. Abused kids and spouses do it. The same family dynamic can apply in other power relationships.

Last edited by Bubba; 12th October 2017 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 12th October 2017, 01:48 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
That can be a two way street, ie irrational trust/defense of corrupt authority. Deny corruption. Victims defending the corrupt "parent" rather than face the painful truth. Abused kids and spouses do it. The same family dynamic can apply in other power relationships.
This is a very old, very tired and essentially unevidenced assertion frequently made by CT believers. It has yet to be shown that anyone on this forum thinks like this, and indeed I created a thread for that very purpose. Not one example was ever posted by any of the CT-crew here.
Whilst it is possible that there are people out there who will blind themselves to any wrongdoing by their government, I would imagine they are few and far between. I have certainly never met anyone fitting this description.
Bubba: on what are you basing this characterisation? Are there studies you can cite showing that a proportion of people have an 'irrational trust/ defence of authority'? How prevalent is this? Can you link to any statements by such people? By this, I don't mean abused spouses defending their husbands: I mean oppressed people defending their government's corruption, or saying things like "I believe everything my government says".
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Old 12th October 2017, 02:17 AM   #47
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I actually think that what Bubba says is correct as a general principle: powerless people often tend to rationalize their oppression. Stockholm syndrom and all that.

In a couple of current threads, the question is debated whether or not Trump could order a nuclear strike on North Korea, and to my great and chilling dismay I find a number of forumites unable to grasp that a first strike is totally illegal, and that following such an order would be a war crime and a crime against humany worthy of most severe punishment. The only defense these forumites have on offer is that the USA have the de facto power to get away with such a crime should it occur. Their judgement is not guided by principle but by the corruption of power.

Of course in any specific CT debate, those claiming that the allegedly oppressed are excusing the alleged Conspirators out of a Stockholm kind of reverence bear the burden of evidence.
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Old 12th October 2017, 03:44 AM   #48
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The situation isn't as clear as you make it out to be, Oystein.

If the Pentagon detects what it believes to be an ICBM being prepped and fueled on a launch pad in North Korea, arguments can and would be made that a limited, preemptive nuclear strike was necessary to prevent greater harm.
As long as the target is clearly military, repercussions would probably be limited.
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Old 12th October 2017, 12:15 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I actually think that what Bubba says is correct as a general principle: powerless people often tend to rationalize their oppression. Stockholm syndrom and all that....

Understood, and this...


Quote:
......Of course in any specific CT debate, those claiming that the allegedly oppressed are excusing the alleged Conspirators out of a Stockholm kind of reverence bear the burden of evidence.
...is why my intention was to not make a specific claim. Hence I said "...can be a two way street,.." ...instead of is a two way street. (in this case)

I said that to point out a possibility which IMO should be kept in mind as an essential measuring device when weighing certain issues.

I recall an earlier example of one side of the same two way street...seen when Sept 11 CTs were emerging: (paraphrased)...."...these conspiracy theorists are like children avoiding the reality such evil exists in our world..so they're blaming their govt.."

To which someone commented: 'The same denial mechanism applies to some of those so shocked by the concept of false flag attack, they embrace the official story for comfort.' At the time it seemed a reasonable point, no matter which camp was mistaken. The principle can apply to many issues, so I keep it in my toolbox. Hence I drew attention to it as a public service, just in case of the unlikely event it would be useful to another member lacking such perspective.


Quote:
Cosmic Yak said:

....Can you link to any statements by such people? By this, I don't mean abused spouses defending their husbands: I mean oppressed people defending their government's corruption, or saying things like "I believe everything my government says".

You gotta be kidding. Test flying a new hybrid straw glider ?

Last edited by Bubba; 12th October 2017 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:59 PM   #50
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Interesting how many of these traits we see in the current occupant of 1600 Pennslyvania Avenue.......
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Though I've had contact with hard core conspiracy believers, I try to avoid them. But I am curious about what type of personality lies within them. Any commonalities - other than being gullible?

Thanks,
Julia
Paranoia.

Hostility.

Sense of personal failure and lack of accomplishment.
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Old 14th October 2017, 02:15 AM   #52
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
That can be a two way street, ie irrational trust/defense of corrupt authority. Deny corruption. Victims defending the corrupt "parent" rather than face the painful truth. Abused kids and spouses do it. The same family dynamic can apply in other power relationships.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This is a very old, very tired and essentially unevidenced assertion frequently made by CT believers. It has yet to be shown that anyone on this forum thinks like this, and indeed I created a thread for that very purpose. Not one example was ever posted by any of the CT-crew here.
Whilst it is possible that there are people out there who will blind themselves to any wrongdoing by their government, I would imagine they are few and far between. I have certainly never met anyone fitting this description.
Bubba: on what are you basing this characterisation? Are there studies you can cite showing that a proportion of people have an 'irrational trust/ defence of authority'? How prevalent is this? Can you link to any statements by such people? By this, I don't mean abused spouses defending their husbands: I mean oppressed people defending their government's corruption, or saying things like "I believe everything my government says".
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post

You gotta be kidding. Test flying a new hybrid straw glider ?
So that's a 'no', then?
Where did I put that Hitchens' Razor?
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Old 17th October 2017, 07:35 AM   #53
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There are CTists who (for lack of a better word) specialize- they have their one bone to pick. Then there are the CTists who embrace them all- JFK, 9/11, Oklahoma City, you name it (we've got a few on this forum, I'm sure I don't need to name names). These are people for whom CT is an ideology, one that stands alone, regardless of any other political or religious leanings. The defining approach here seems to be to see government as an entity rather than as a group; and the only people who can be trusted to tell when this entity is telling the truth are the ones who start from the position that it always lies. It's impossible to argue productively with these people, because it's impossible (or at least a waste of time) to argue with a purist.
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Old 17th October 2017, 05:42 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
In a couple of current threads, the question is debated whether or not Trump could order a nuclear strike on North Korea, and to my great and chilling dismay I find a number of forumites unable to grasp that a first strike is totally illegal
I seem to recall you backed away from that categorical assertion.
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Old 17th October 2017, 05:44 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Interesting how many of these traits we see in the current occupant of 1600 Pennslyvania Avenue.......
Too bad nobody brought this up before the election.
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Old 18th October 2017, 12:30 AM   #56
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Heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant in the room?

This thread reminds me of that story.
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Old 18th October 2017, 01:25 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I seem to recall you backed away from that categorical assertion.
You seem to not have understood.
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Old 18th October 2017, 02:14 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant in the room?

This thread reminds me of that story.
Why?
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Old 18th October 2017, 02:25 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant in the room?
No. I've heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant, and I've heard of the expression "the elephant in the room", but I've never heard a story yet that conflates these two completely different metaphorical elephaments.

Dave
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Old 19th October 2017, 12:26 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No. I've heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant, and I've heard of the expression "the elephant in the room", but I've never heard a story yet that conflates these two completely different metaphorical elephaments.

Dave
Yes,understood...However it is a little known fact that the blind guys were in the same room with the elephant. They never mentioned the room because they never saw the room.
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Old 19th October 2017, 01:24 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Yes,understood...However it is a little known fact that the blind guys were in the same room with the elephant. They never mentioned the room because they never saw the room.
Yet somehow they got out of the room without knowing it was there, which must have involved a lot of blundering about and bumping into the walls because they had no idea where they were or what obstacles were in the way yet insisted on keeping going. Now, who does that remind me of?

Dave
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Old 19th October 2017, 12:35 PM   #62
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I wonder what results you get when you specifically exclude right-wing leaning conspiracy theorists.
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Old 20th October 2017, 04:08 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I wonder what results you get when you specifically exclude right-wing leaning conspiracy theorists.
What results do you get when you look at them specifically?

Why exclude any CTs?

This thread is about the traits common to all CTs. Not some subset.

Hank
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Old 20th October 2017, 04:33 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I wonder what results you get when you specifically exclude right-wing leaning conspiracy theorists.
Much the same, I'd suspect. The methodology of the Pearl Harbor and Birther conspiracists is no more or less broken than that of the JFK and 9/11 conspiracists.

Dave
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Old 20th October 2017, 10:30 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I wonder what results you get when you specifically exclude right-wing leaning conspiracy theorists.
According to RW, right-wing nutters despise George Soros, while Left-wing nutters point their arrows towards the Koch Brothers.

I think that would be the only difference.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:40 AM   #66
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Many conspiracy theorists don't suffer from a lack of vision, or have tunnel vision, and they have the capacities to be Prime Minister, and the departmental and executive experience to go with it. The trouble is there are others who think the moon is made of green cheese.
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Old 5th December 2017, 06:06 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Many conspiracy theorists don't suffer from a lack of vision, or have tunnel vision, and they have the capacities to be Prime Minister, and the departmental and executive experience to go with it. The trouble is there are others who think the moon is made of green cheese.
I'd like to meet one of those conspiracy theorists without tunnel vision someday. I haven't found one yet, former conspiracy theorists excepted.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:38 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Though I've had contact with hard core conspiracy believers, I try to avoid them. But I am curious about what type of personality lies within them. Any commonalities - other than being gullible?

Thanks,
Julia
This type of reasoning exists among religious apologists and conspiracy theorists alike:

If I can come up with a way in which this or that comes true, then that's what I'm gonna go with.

No testing of the hypothesis, an a priori distrust followed by finding "facts" to pad it up.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:56 AM   #69
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Many conspiracy theorists don't suffer from a lack of vision, or have tunnel vision, and they have the capacities to be Prime Minister, and the departmental and executive experience to go with it. The trouble is there are others who think the moon is made of green cheese.
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I'd like to meet one of those conspiracy theorists without tunnel vision someday. I haven't found one yet, former conspiracy theorists excepted.
Indeed. I would have thought that tunnel vision was a major prerequisite for a conspiracy theorist.
Henri McPhee: do you have any examples of this type of CT-ist?
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:49 AM   #70
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There was an item on that American Unsolved murders TV show which mentioned that Billy the Kid was not shot dead but that he was still alive in 1950 and living under a different name. The commentator also added that Unsolved Mysteries believes this. I don't think you can just disregard that as some kind of lunatic conspiracy theory.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:53 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on that American Unsolved murders TV show which mentioned that Billy the Kid was not shot dead but that he was still alive in 1950 and living under a different name. The commentator also added that Unsolved Mysteries believes this. I don't think you can just disregard that as some kind of lunatic conspiracy theory.
That's because it's not a conspiracy theory.
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Old 6th December 2017, 05:22 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an item on that American Unsolved murders TV show which mentioned that Billy the Kid was not shot dead but that he was still alive in 1950 and living under a different name. The commentator also added that Unsolved Mysteries believes this. I don't think you can just disregard that as some kind of lunatic conspiracy theory.
Several people have claimed to be William Bonney over the years, though not recently because they'd have to be 158. As a conspiracy theory it's pretty minor, simply requiring that Pat Garrett lied about Bonney's death because reasons, in a time and place where documentation was sparse, so it's not a completely lunatic conspiracy theory; it requires a fairly small and well-defined conspiracy, between possibly as few as two people, though it's rather sparse on motivations and no concrete evidence supporting it ever seems to have surfaced. But then again, that's not actually the subject of the thread, which is the people who believe conspiracy theories despite a lack of evidence. Who is "Unsolved Mysteries" in this context, and what else do they believe?

Dave
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:00 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Who is "Unsolved Mysteries" in this context, and what else do they believe?

Dave
Unsolved Mysteries is an American TV show which has been going for years and can be seen on Freeview in the UK, often repeats, including the Jeffrey MacDonald case, from years back. They frequently have updates where the cases are solved from information from the public after seeing the show. Sometimes it's a lot of sentimental softhead about people meeting their birth parents after being apart for many years.

I remember one show which proposed that the assassin of Lincoln was never caught, and he died in about 1900, which was another mistake, like Billy the Kid. I don't intend having a big argument about that because I don't know the full facts.
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:15 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Unsolved Mysteries is an American TV show which has been going for years and can be seen on Freeview in the UK, often repeats, including the Jeffrey MacDonald case, from years back.
Then I think it's a bit erroneous to say "Unsolved Mysteries believes this;" it would probably be more accurate to say "Unsolved Mysteries finds this draws in an audience."

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Old 9th December 2017, 11:21 PM   #75
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One of the things I noticed about the 9-11 Truthers is that the 0-day Truthers (those who were convinced immediately that it was an inside job) tended to be people who were quite obviously mentally and emotionally disturbed. Nico Haupt and Rosalee Grable and Gerard Holmgren were all raving loonies, but they were the researchers who started compiling the "evidence" that the government was behind it. Their work attracted people who were slightly less crazy (like Eric Hufschmid and David Ray Griffin), who latched onto it and popularized it. Then slightly less crazy celebrities (Charlie and Rosie) start pushing the CT. Then Dylan Avery comes along and makes it accessible to those who don't read books.
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Old 10th December 2017, 03:45 AM   #76
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"Those who don't read books"

And those who can't write.

I am fascinated at the large percentage of truthers on social media who never express their own thought with their own words, with the exception of insults, and instead share memes and videos. I can't tell though if this is more prevalent among ctists than the average John and Jill. In 9/11 themed Facebook groups open for both sides, my (certainly biased) impression is this: when you see a meme, you can be 95% certain the poster is a truther. You see a video, and in 90% of the cases a truther posted it. You see two or more hand-typed paragraphs of text, and 85% of the time that's a debunker.
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Old 10th December 2017, 06:49 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
"Those who don't read books"

And those who can't write.

I am fascinated at the large percentage of truthers on social media who never express their own thought with their own words, with the exception of insults, and instead share memes and videos. I can't tell though if this is more prevalent among ctists than the average John and Jill. In 9/11 themed Facebook groups open for both sides, my (certainly biased) impression is this: when you see a meme, you can be 95% certain the poster is a truther. You see a video, and in 90% of the cases a truther posted it. You see two or more hand-typed paragraphs of text, and 85% of the time that's a debunker.


I've seen this for JFK CTs as well.

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Old 10th December 2017, 06:59 AM   #78
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The answer to this question depends on what you mean by "conspiracy theorists" and "common trait". The term "conspiracy theorist" gets used on this forum in many different ways without clarification. It includes,
1. Activists who market themselves publicly as promoters of the conspiracy. This would include people like Alex Jones, but also members of AE9/11T and We Are Change.
2. People who post on forums and belong to groups that discuss these ideas.
3. People from the general population who endorse items indicating some belief in ideas that are conspiracy theories but which the person may not label or interpret as a conspiracy theory.

This last group is very large and may include anywhere from one-third to one-half of all Americans.

One study that is widely cited in scientific research is Darwin, Neave, and Holmes (2011) that found conspiracy theory beliefs were, "related to agreeableness, low levels of self esteem, certain negative attitudes towards
authority, and paranoia." This agrees with my personal experience.

Previously, when I was very active on this forum, I discussed this issue with a medical doctor who was at that time active here. He expressed the opinion that he had seem considerable amounts of clinical paranoia among Truthers on the JREF. This agrees with my personal experience.

I join conspiracy theory groups and talk to their members. I had this to say about a group that calls itself the Proud Boys. I believe they are a conspiracy theory group.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott...4613589166502/. Also see this for the description on this matter with a member of the Proud Boys.

Before I go to bed, I'd like to point out that my experience with members of groups 1 and 2 are that they are very different from the general population that supports belief in conspiracy theory, or at least there are clear differences between them. I think it is Group 2 members that most of the posts in this thread are aimed at. Group 1 members are the intelligentsia of the conspiracy theory movement, and like any other intellectual movement, it's intellectual leadership is quite distinct. It may also be a part of the reason why conspiracy theorists have trouble forming effective groups around these ideas and have historically looked for political leadership to mobilize their ideas.

I want to go to bed, so I'll talk about the issue of "common traits" at a later time.
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