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Old 10th October 2017, 05:01 PM   #41
jaydeehess
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Oh, oh , pick me.
Someone may have said this already but....

Many, maybe even most, are batcrap crazy
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Old 10th October 2017, 09:29 PM   #42
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A desperate desire to find someone else to blame other than themselves for their failings in life.
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:50 AM   #43
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
A desperate desire to find someone else to blame other than themselves for their failings in life.
Actually true. Well, that's certainly part of it, anyway.

Quote:
It has been noted that individuals who endorse conspiracy theories are likely to be higher in powerlessness, social isolation and anomia, which is broadly defined as a subjective disengagement from social norms.

Such disengagement from the normative social order may result in greater conspiratorial thinking for a number of related reasons. First, individuals who feel alienated may consequently reject conventional explanations of events, as they reject the legitimacy of the source of these explanations. Due to these individuals feeling alienated from their peers, they may also turn to conspiracist groups for a sense of belonging and community, or to marginalised subcultures in which conspiracy theories are potentially more rife.

People who feel powerless may also endorse conspiracy theories as they also help the individual avoid blame for their predicament. In this sense, conspiracy theories give a sense of meaning, security and control over an unpredictable and dangerous world. Finally, and most simply, conspiracy beliefs which imply a level of Machiavellianism and power enacted by those without fixed morality are most likely to resonate with people who feel powerless and believe that society lacks norms.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/archiv...4Hg1k.facebook
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:24 AM   #44
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I just don't think we are being told the TRUTH about these conspiracy theories, or cover-ups if you prefer the term. We are not being told the truth about these internet scams which defraud many people out of their life savings. Practically nothing is being done about it.

There was something on TV yesterday by a TV historian saying Putin is supposed to model himself on Stalin. Personally I think Putin models himself on somebody like the former Tsar Peter the Great. That kind of misleading talk on TV can be dangerous. German women thought Germany would win the war right up to the end. They were subjected to conspiracy talk. It's what is known as being out of touch, and out of touch with reality, and sheer ignorance.

There is a bit about this sort of thing in that Keeping it Dark book published in the 1930s:

Quote:
What our newspapers gain in good humour and the absence of scurrility they may lose in refraining from pointed and useful criticism. Their assumption of representing the interests of all, irrespective of classes, inevitably results in an amorphous product, devoid of definite opinion on just those issues where controversy makes most contribution to life. It is their "independent non-party" pose which is their bane. We could only wish that our newspapers were more well and truly "kept" by their backers and protectors and less inclined to tout for favours from the whole range of the general public.
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I just don't think we are being told the TRUTH about these conspiracy theories, or cover-ups if you prefer the term. We are not being told the truth about these internet scams which defraud many people out of their life savings. Practically nothing is being done about it.

There was something on TV yesterday by a TV historian saying Putin is supposed to model himself on Stalin. Personally I think Putin models himself on somebody like the former Tsar Peter the Great. That kind of misleading talk on TV can be dangerous. German women thought Germany would win the war right up to the end. They were subjected to conspiracy talk. It's what is known as being out of touch, and out of touch with reality, and sheer ignorance.

There is a bit about this sort of thing in that Keeping it Dark book published in the 1930s:
Some dude said something, so Conspiracy?
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Old 11th October 2017, 10:33 PM   #46
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I should add that none of the conspiracy theory buffs I knew (including me) never though of themselves as CTists. Some think they're crusaders acting on hidden knowledge that the sheeple are too blind/dumb to see. Others just have a world view dependent on the belief that some hidden huge organization is behind the world's ills. Some if it is "Daddy Issues", where they have an irrational distrust of authority of any kind. For certain ethnic groups it's part of their history: African-Americans suffered under segregation - an actual conspiracy, Armenians, who can't even get their genocide recognized by many western countries (including the US), and Russians, who seem to be born paranoid, and or learn it quickly from their government.
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Old 12th October 2017, 12:40 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I should add that none of the conspiracy theory buffs I knew (including me) never though of themselves as CTists. Some think they're crusaders acting on hidden knowledge that the sheeple are too blind/dumb to see. Others just have a world view dependent on the belief that some hidden huge organization is behind the world's ills. Some if it is "Daddy Issues", where they have an irrational distrust of authority of any kind. For certain ethnic groups it's part of their history: African-Americans suffered under segregation - an actual conspiracy, Armenians, who can't even get their genocide recognized by many western countries (including the US), and Russians, who seem to be born paranoid, and or learn it quickly from their government.

That can be a two way street, ie irrational trust/defense of corrupt authority. Deny corruption. Victims defending the corrupt "parent" rather than face the painful truth. Abused kids and spouses do it. The same family dynamic can apply in other power relationships.

Last edited by Bubba; 12th October 2017 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 12th October 2017, 01:48 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
That can be a two way street, ie irrational trust/defense of corrupt authority. Deny corruption. Victims defending the corrupt "parent" rather than face the painful truth. Abused kids and spouses do it. The same family dynamic can apply in other power relationships.
This is a very old, very tired and essentially unevidenced assertion frequently made by CT believers. It has yet to be shown that anyone on this forum thinks like this, and indeed I created a thread for that very purpose. Not one example was ever posted by any of the CT-crew here.
Whilst it is possible that there are people out there who will blind themselves to any wrongdoing by their government, I would imagine they are few and far between. I have certainly never met anyone fitting this description.
Bubba: on what are you basing this characterisation? Are there studies you can cite showing that a proportion of people have an 'irrational trust/ defence of authority'? How prevalent is this? Can you link to any statements by such people? By this, I don't mean abused spouses defending their husbands: I mean oppressed people defending their government's corruption, or saying things like "I believe everything my government says".
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Old 12th October 2017, 02:17 AM   #49
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I actually think that what Bubba says is correct as a general principle: powerless people often tend to rationalize their oppression. Stockholm syndrom and all that.

In a couple of current threads, the question is debated whether or not Trump could order a nuclear strike on North Korea, and to my great and chilling dismay I find a number of forumites unable to grasp that a first strike is totally illegal, and that following such an order would be a war crime and a crime against humany worthy of most severe punishment. The only defense these forumites have on offer is that the USA have the de facto power to get away with such a crime should it occur. Their judgement is not guided by principle but by the corruption of power.

Of course in any specific CT debate, those claiming that the allegedly oppressed are excusing the alleged Conspirators out of a Stockholm kind of reverence bear the burden of evidence.
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Old 12th October 2017, 03:44 AM   #50
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The situation isn't as clear as you make it out to be, Oystein.

If the Pentagon detects what it believes to be an ICBM being prepped and fueled on a launch pad in North Korea, arguments can and would be made that a limited, preemptive nuclear strike was necessary to prevent greater harm.
As long as the target is clearly military, repercussions would probably be limited.
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Old 12th October 2017, 12:15 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I actually think that what Bubba says is correct as a general principle: powerless people often tend to rationalize their oppression. Stockholm syndrom and all that....

Understood, and this...


Quote:
......Of course in any specific CT debate, those claiming that the allegedly oppressed are excusing the alleged Conspirators out of a Stockholm kind of reverence bear the burden of evidence.
...is why my intention was to not make a specific claim. Hence I said "...can be a two way street,.." ...instead of is a two way street. (in this case)

I said that to point out a possibility which IMO should be kept in mind as an essential measuring device when weighing certain issues.

I recall an earlier example of one side of the same two way street...seen when Sept 11 CTs were emerging: (paraphrased)...."...these conspiracy theorists are like children avoiding the reality such evil exists in our world..so they're blaming their govt.."

To which someone commented: 'The same denial mechanism applies to some of those so shocked by the concept of false flag attack, they embrace the official story for comfort.' At the time it seemed a reasonable point, no matter which camp was mistaken. The principle can apply to many issues, so I keep it in my toolbox. Hence I drew attention to it as a public service, just in case of the unlikely event it would be useful to another member lacking such perspective.


Quote:
Cosmic Yak said:

....Can you link to any statements by such people? By this, I don't mean abused spouses defending their husbands: I mean oppressed people defending their government's corruption, or saying things like "I believe everything my government says".

You gotta be kidding. Test flying a new hybrid straw glider ?

Last edited by Bubba; 12th October 2017 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:34 AM   #52
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I still find it extraordinary that conspiracy theorists who indicate the truth are not reported in the mass media, and censored on internet forums. I fully appreciate that something like a secret service is secret, but without public criticism every kind of corruption and abuse becomes rife, and public institutions decay. I also appreciate that conspiracies about the moon being made of green cheese are not true.

Some victims of child abuse may be fruitloops, as the police seem to think but I do think there are celebrities and others in high places who are not whiter than white. If Trump and Kim Jong Un are lunatics with their fingers on the nuclear button then that should be made public.

There is a bit about the Jimmy Savile conspiracy on You Tube. That was never reported in the mainstream media , or any other media until he died, yet it was an open secret:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6EqlWhf8z8
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:59 PM   #53
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Interesting how many of these traits we see in the current occupant of 1600 Pennslyvania Avenue.......
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:06 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Though I've had contact with hard core conspiracy believers, I try to avoid them. But I am curious about what type of personality lies within them. Any commonalities - other than being gullible?

Thanks,
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Paranoia.

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Old 14th October 2017, 02:15 AM   #55
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
That can be a two way street, ie irrational trust/defense of corrupt authority. Deny corruption. Victims defending the corrupt "parent" rather than face the painful truth. Abused kids and spouses do it. The same family dynamic can apply in other power relationships.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This is a very old, very tired and essentially unevidenced assertion frequently made by CT believers. It has yet to be shown that anyone on this forum thinks like this, and indeed I created a thread for that very purpose. Not one example was ever posted by any of the CT-crew here.
Whilst it is possible that there are people out there who will blind themselves to any wrongdoing by their government, I would imagine they are few and far between. I have certainly never met anyone fitting this description.
Bubba: on what are you basing this characterisation? Are there studies you can cite showing that a proportion of people have an 'irrational trust/ defence of authority'? How prevalent is this? Can you link to any statements by such people? By this, I don't mean abused spouses defending their husbands: I mean oppressed people defending their government's corruption, or saying things like "I believe everything my government says".
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post

You gotta be kidding. Test flying a new hybrid straw glider ?
So that's a 'no', then?
Where did I put that Hitchens' Razor?
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Old Yesterday, 07:35 AM   #56
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There are CTists who (for lack of a better word) specialize- they have their one bone to pick. Then there are the CTists who embrace them all- JFK, 9/11, Oklahoma City, you name it (we've got a few on this forum, I'm sure I don't need to name names). These are people for whom CT is an ideology, one that stands alone, regardless of any other political or religious leanings. The defining approach here seems to be to see government as an entity rather than as a group; and the only people who can be trusted to tell when this entity is telling the truth are the ones who start from the position that it always lies. It's impossible to argue productively with these people, because it's impossible (or at least a waste of time) to argue with a purist.
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Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM   #57
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If Trump is a chump, or there are conspiracies in the banking industry because banks always get bailed out, then that should not just get rejected and ignored as conspiracy theorists.

President Kennedy had a bit to say about all this in a You Tube speech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8HTr-F-FVM
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Old Yesterday, 05:42 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
In a couple of current threads, the question is debated whether or not Trump could order a nuclear strike on North Korea, and to my great and chilling dismay I find a number of forumites unable to grasp that a first strike is totally illegal
I seem to recall you backed away from that categorical assertion.
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Old Yesterday, 05:44 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Interesting how many of these traits we see in the current occupant of 1600 Pennslyvania Avenue.......
Too bad nobody brought this up before the election.
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Old Today, 12:30 AM   #60
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Heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant in the room?

This thread reminds me of that story.
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Old Today, 01:25 AM   #61
Oystein
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I seem to recall you backed away from that categorical assertion.
You seem to not have understood.
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Old Today, 02:14 AM   #62
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant in the room?

This thread reminds me of that story.
Why?
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Old Today, 02:25 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant in the room?
No. I've heard the one about the blind guys trying to identify the elephant, and I've heard of the expression "the elephant in the room", but I've never heard a story yet that conflates these two completely different metaphorical elephaments.

Dave
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