ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th September 2017, 09:34 AM   #121
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,911
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And as we know, intentions are all that matter. Furthermore, Democrats always have good intentions, and Republicans always have bad intentions.

It's so simple!
The former is obviously sarcastic - but it sure seems starting with the 2016 election that the latter is patently true.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:35 AM   #122
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,913
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I thought to be eligible for DACA they had to have arrived before 2007? It's not on-going, is it?

If not, how can it encourage immigration?
No, I don't think it is ongoing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferr...ls#Eligibility

Quote:
To qualify for DACA, applicants must meet the following major requirements, although meeting them does not guarantee approval:
  • Came to the United States before their 16th birthday
  • Have lived continuously in the United States since June 15, 2007
  • Were under age 31 on June 15, 2012 (i.e., born on June 16, 1981 or after)
  • Were physically present in the United States on June 15, 2012, and at the time of making their request for consideration of deferred action with USCIS
  • Had no lawful status on June 15, 2012
  • Have completed high school or a GED, have been honorably discharged from the armed forces, or are enrolled in school
  • Have not been convicted of a felony or serious misdemeanors, or three or more other misdemeanors, and do not otherwise pose a threat to national security or public safety
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:36 AM   #123
Praktik
Philosopher
 
Praktik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,236
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
His crackdown on illegal immigration is designed to help poor citizens. It will especially help black people, since they have much higher levels of poverty. Also, black children are more likely to live in school districts burdened by illegal immigrant children. Cracking down on illegal immigration generally hurts rich white guys, since it makes it harder for them to find cheap labor.
Why imagine ill-intent when sunmaster here can elucidate some of the reasons why people would think the policy change isn't simply "to hurt people"
__________________
“ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief"
-Iain Banks
Praktik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:39 AM   #124
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,913
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you imagine these kids all come to the US on their own? That their parents are highly skilled workers? Or that finishing high school and having a clean record means you're not low-skilled?
You're moving the goal posts. Their parents aren't eligible for DACA and aren't Dreamers. DACA, or removing it, does not have an effect on low-skill jobs due to non-DACA eligible people.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:39 AM   #125
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,911
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is a post hoc analysis of immigration data, not Dreamers, and was written in 2005, before DACA. Further, you're assuming that Dreamers are primarily competing for the low-skill jobs. Is there any particular reason for that assumption or why this data reliably applies to Dreamers?
If Dreamers couldn't work legally before, it stands to reason that they were underemployed before. Right? Or were at least working in unskilled jobs where illegal immigrant labor is usually employed. Logically this means that they have probably acquired fewer job skills on average than a legal worker of the same age.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:40 AM   #126
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,639
Forgiveness is really healthy for one to do. It takes practice, but it's worth it in the long run.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:44 AM   #127
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,913
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
If Dreamers couldn't work legally before, it stands to reason that they were underemployed before. Right? Or were at least working in unskilled jobs where illegal immigrant labor is usually employed. Logically this means that they have probably acquired fewer job skills on average than a legal worker of the same age.
Assumptions. Zig wanted hard data and, not coincidentally, he was similarly unable to produce any, as per his own prediction.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:46 AM   #128
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,911
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sure, there is. To be eligible for DACA, one must meet certain criteria. There are no high school drop-out* Dreamers. There are no criminal record-having Dreamers.

There are higher standards for being a Dreamer than there are for having low-skilled jobs.


And what hard data are you basing that on?
You're constantly demanding hard data for claims you don't like, regardless of the context or the burden of proof, and despite the fact that you rarely, if ever, provide any data yourself. But in this case, especially, the burden of proof is on your side. The claim is that Trump has never enacted a policy which, essentially, isn't evil, and that therefore his supporters have no excuse. But our claim is that there is at least a prima facie case for the repeal of DACA based on non-evil policy goals. If you want to show there isn't, the burden is on your side to show that DACA is an good thing (and I think you would even need to show that it is obviously a good thing).
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:50 AM   #129
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,913
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
You're constantly demanding hard data for claims you don't like
I think you're confusing me with Zig. I'm just asking him to maintain his own standard.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:50 AM   #130
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You're moving the goal posts. Their parents aren't eligible for DACA and aren't Dreamers. DACA, or removing it, does not have an effect on low-skill jobs due to non-DACA eligible people.
You say that like DACA couldn't have any effect on their decision to immigrate. But that's patently absurd.

Plus, of course, you're still assuming that DACA Dreamers are all not low skilled workers. But that doesn't make sense either.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:50 AM   #131
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,911
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It's not ongoing, but that is true for every amnesty. It still creates a moral hazard, however, because would-be illegal immigrants (or actual ones) could reasonably expect that another amnesty will happen in the not-too-distant future. Despite the fact that every liberal news source has desperately tried to disprove Jeff Sessions' claim that DACA led to an influx of unaccompanied minors at the border, there almost certainly is a causal relationship there. Likewise, Trump's tough talk about illegal immigration has led to a dramatic reduction in illegal border crossings. Policy sends signals, and human beings, no matter where they are or what language they speak, can interpret those signals.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:53 AM   #132
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,911
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I think you're confusing me with Zig. I'm just asking him to maintain his own standard.
I can't imagine confusing you with Zig. I have confused Skeptic Ginger with Zig recently, because she started using the same avatar. That has led to some serious double-takes or triple-takes on my part.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:54 AM   #133
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,477
Clearly many voters had difficulty in deciding which was the bigger crime; voting for Trump or voting for Clinton.

A system that would produce two such unsavoury candidates in the first place is the hardest to forgive.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 11th September 2017 at 10:00 AM.
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:55 AM   #134
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,913
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You say that like DACA couldn't have any effect on their decision to immigrate. But that's patently absurd.
Given that it does not apply to anyone entering the country after it was enacted, how could it possible effect their decision to immigrate?


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Plus, of course, you're still assuming that DACA Dreamers are all not low skilled workers. But that doesn't make sense either.
They are not all low skilled workers. That's trivial to debunk. Some of them entered the military.

eta: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ary/640637001/
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:56 AM   #135
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,911
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
If Dreamers couldn't work legally before, it stands to reason that they were underemployed before. Right? Or were at least working in unskilled jobs where illegal immigrant labor is usually employed. Logically this means that they have probably acquired fewer job skills on average than a legal worker of the same age.
Most folks in their teenage years and younger are underemployed. At least in a civilized society.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:59 AM   #136
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,911
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Given that it does not apply to anyone entering the country after it was enacted, how could it possible effect their decision to immigrate?



They are not all low skilled workers. That's trivial to debunk. Some of them entered the military.

eta: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ary/640637001/
So he wants to do away with Dreamers in the military and also transgenders. I'm at about 80% certainty that he's going to want to rid the military of those meddlesome women as well. Lets hope none of them are working in important roles.

Winning!
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:00 AM   #137
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,911
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Clearly many voters had difficulty in deciding which was the bigger crime; voting for Trump or voting for Clinton.

A system that would produce two such unsavourable candidates in the first place is the hardest to forgive.
Most of the things that made Hillary unsavorable were, well. Fake news. Trails of dead bodies in their wake and of course pizza parlor child sex rings. That anyone believes any of that is a testament to how effective propaganda can really be.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:02 AM   #138
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If it's not name calling, then why did you call it name calling?
Figure of speech. Obviously I wasn't clear.

Quote:
I didn't criticize him simply for incivility.
No you called him out for using name-calling, which is uncivil, just like calling yourself better than someone out of the blue is a bit of a dick move i.e. uncivil.

Quote:
And given how many times you've tried to use the ploy of adopting what you think are my tactics against me to illustrate what's wrong with them, you're in no position to object even if incivility were the only issue.
Given that pointing out hypocrisy is something I've done before, I'm in no position to point it out now... what?

Quote:
You're a hypocrite, Argumemnon.
You wound me, sir.

Wait, that makes no sense. What's the hypocrisy on my part, here?
__________________
<Roar!>


Last edited by Argumemnon; 11th September 2017 at 10:03 AM.
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:05 AM   #139
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And what hard data are you basing that on?
Silly Upchurch! Zig only ever requires evidence from other people.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:06 AM   #140
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Given that it does not apply to anyone entering the country after it was enacted, how could it possible effect their decision to immigrate?
By creating a precedent and an expectation of similar actions in the future. Just as previous immigration amnesty as done.

Quote:
They are not all low skilled workers.
I didn't claim they all were, nor do they all have to be. Only some of them do. And some of them are.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:11 AM   #141
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No you called him out for using name-calling, which is uncivil, just like calling yourself better than someone out of the blue is a bit of a dick move i.e. uncivil.
Again, I called him out for more than that.

Quote:
Given that pointing out hypocrisy is something I've done before, I'm in no position to point it out now... what?
Wow. You really don't get it, do you?

You claimed I've used bad tactics against you. You then use the bad tactics you've claimed I used against me. You justify this by saying you're doing it to show me why it's bad, and thus claim that you're not hypocritical for doing it to me.

But I've just done what you claimed to have done. And I can justify it just as easily.

You're not only a hypocrite, you're an oblivious one.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:13 AM   #142
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Silly Upchurch! Zig only ever requires evidence from other people.
I presented evidence. Which is more than you've done here.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:16 AM   #143
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,913
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
By creating a precedent and an expectation of similar actions in the future. Just as previous immigration amnesty as done.
Too late for that. Reagan did that in the 80s.

Quote:
I didn't claim they all were, nor do they all have to be. Only some of them do. And some of them are.
How much? A significant amount to support your claim?

Hard data?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:17 AM   #144
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, I called him out for more than that.
Yes, you called him out for not displaying "the mark of a true serious thinker, interested only in serious discussion and debate." and that you were better than him and were going to "actually discuss this rationally and without name calling.", and yet the very act of calling yourself better than him undermines your point about serious discussion and rationality and avoiding name-calling (uncivility).

Is that clearer?

Quote:
You claimed I've used bad tactics against you. You then use the bad tactics you've claimed I used against me. You justify this by saying you're doing it to show me why it's bad, and thus claim that you're not hypocritical for doing it to me.

But I've just done what you claimed to have done. And I can justify it just as easily.
Are you seriously claiming that calling yourself better than NoahFence was somehow getting back at him for something done earlier? Or that you're somehow now using my own tactics against me, although what you're doing bears no ressemblance to them? I have no idea what you're saying, and I suspect you don't either. I guess you're bearing some long-term grudge against me, which is rather amusing since I was trying to help you not undermine your point, which I was in agreement with.

Perhaps if you weren't so consumed by this weird vendetta against me you'd have seen it right away. I even used a smiley to make sure you knew I wasn't seeking confrontation!
__________________
<Roar!>


Last edited by Argumemnon; 11th September 2017 at 10:19 AM.
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:18 AM   #145
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I presented evidence.
Not for the claim that Upchurch asked you about.

Quote:
Which is more than you've done here.
What are you even talking about, now? What claim have I made "here" that would require evidence? Again, this smacks of a personal grudge you have with me, as you're just throwing stuff at me randomly.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:19 AM   #146
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,913
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I presented evidence. Which is more than you've done here.
Evidence for a different claim than the one you made, but ...yeah, I guess, technically.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:26 AM   #147
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you seriously claiming that calling yourself better than NoahFence was somehow getting back at him for something done earlier?
It wasn't "earlier", it was in the very post I responded to.

Quote:
Perhaps if you weren't so consumed by this weird vendetta against me you'd have seen it right away. I even used a smiley to make sure you knew I wasn't seeking confrontation!
Funny how you keep producing it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:27 AM   #148
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It wasn't "earlier", it was in the very post I responded to.
Then call me an idiot but I still don't get it.

Quote:
Funny how you keep producing it.
Only in your interpretation. Do you understand my point about undermining your own point with your comment or not?
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:27 AM   #149
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What are you even talking about, now? What claim have I made "here" that would require evidence?
You haven't made any claims that require evidence, because you haven't contributed to the discussion at all.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:28 AM   #150
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,911
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
You're constantly demanding hard data for claims you don't like, regardless of the context or the burden of proof, and despite the fact that you rarely, if ever, provide any data yourself. But in this case, especially, the burden of proof is on your side. The claim is that Trump has never enacted a policy which, essentially, isn't evil, and that therefore his supporters have no excuse. But our claim is that there is at least a prima facie case for the repeal of DACA based on non-evil policy goals. If you want to show there isn't, the burden is on your side to show that DACA is an good thing (and I think you would even need to show that it is obviously a good thing).
Providing a safe haven for children brought here is clearly a good thing. Again, they came from places not too nice, otherwise their parents wouldn't have brought them to a country with a sizable population that hates them despite not knowing them.

800,000 hard-working children of immigrants. Yes, illegal immigrants. But they had no choice in the matter. They are benefiting society in ways you and I are not. Military members. First responders. Doctors. All free of the crime and drugs, a standard you people insisted they be free from in order to be treated as a human.

They are good people doing good things.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:31 AM   #151
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You haven't made any claims that require evidence, because you haven't contributed to the discussion at all.
First of all I'd like to point out that the discussion is "will you ever forgive Trump voters?" which is not exactly a fact-based topic. Second, although your comment about name-calling was both relevant and true, me pointing out that you were hurting your own argument by using uncivil comments yourself is absolutely me contributing to the discussion (ETA: unless you want to admit that you weren't contributing either with that post). Thirdly, you said that I had not presented evidence "here", implying that there was evidence to be given but that it had been withheld, although you now admit that no such problem exists.

You wouldn't just be trying to be confrontational, would you?
__________________
<Roar!>


Last edited by Argumemnon; 11th September 2017 at 10:41 AM.
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:31 AM   #152
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,117
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Forgiveness is really healthy for one to do. It takes practice, but it's worth it in the long run.
I agree. I also confess after all these years of forgiving people, I'm still a little confused as to what it's supposed to entail.

Here's Charlie Brown and Lucy: She holds the football for him to kick, but removes it so he falls on his tush. She apologizes. he forgives her. The next day she pulls the prank again. Charlie's such a good guy and trusting soul that Lucy plays him again and again without fail.

Does forgiveness mean the relationship is restored just as it was before it was betrayed, such that a person continues to forgive hir abusive spouse and lets hirself be abused again and again?

I have forgiven various people in my life who have betrayed my trust, but I remain cautious about them, and there is an interpersonal distance that wasn't there before. I'm over animosity, but I remember who these people are.

Sure, I am kind to Trump Enthusiasts, but there's a friendly distance.
If I found a scorpion in my room, even though I've been stung by one before, I'd carefully capture it and let it go free outside. I'm kind to scorpions. I respect them. But I don't snuggle up with them.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:32 AM   #153
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,440
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
By creating a precedent and an expectation of similar actions in the future. Just as previous immigration amnesty as done.
Ah, you missed that part in the law that says "This is absolutely the last time we do this. We're not kidding this time."
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:33 AM   #154
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I agree. I also confess after all these years of forgiving people, I'm still a little confused as to what it's supposed to entail.
I find it pointless, myself, just like apologies. As far as I'm concerned, the best way forward in instances where one party is hurt or has done wrong is to avoid doing the same thing in the future. I can think of no better proof that one has admitted one's mistakes than them not repeating them, and no better way to show forgiveness than just not bringing it up again.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 10:52 AM   #155
Mumbles
Illuminator
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,645
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
His crackdown on illegal immigration is designed to help poor citizens. It will especially help black people, since they have much higher levels of poverty. Also, black children are more likely to live in school districts burdened by illegal immigrant children. Cracking down on illegal immigration generally hurts rich white guys, since it makes it harder for them to find cheap labor.
This justification is, of course, a pile of crap.

We know that lead poisoning leads to worse education outcomes, and increased violence. We also know that black communities are more likely to have lead pollution - an administration concerned with black people would push lead abatement programs.

We know that employment discrimination is widespread - to the point where black people with college education are treated similarly to white high school dropouts. An administration concerned with black people would push lead abatement programs.

We know that police discrimination is also widespread - black people are often subject to arbitrary police searches, violence, and all too often murders. an administration concerned with black people would increase monitoring and decrease the militarization of police departments, and at the very least push consent decrees to attempt to reform problem police departments.

We know that the "war on drugs" leads to an amazing number of nonviolent black men being placed in jail, being given criminal records which further damages their job prospects, and leads to a cycle of prison stays that keeps them out of the lives of their children. An administration concerned with black people would push to decriminalize drug offenses.

We know that white nationalist groups are on the rise, leading to violent attacks such as that done by Dylann Roof, and violent demonstrations such as the one we saw last month. An administration concerned with black people would direct the FBI to more closely monitor such groups, and direct resources at programs designed to aid those who wish to leave the clutches of such hate groups.

We know that black people face barriers in terms of control over their state and local governments, due to various voter suppression efforts pushed by the likes of Chris Kobach and Ken Blackwell. In addition, they face long lines at polls due to a relative low number of polling areas and machines. An administration concerned with black people would work against voter suppression efforts, and would try to correct imbalances in waiting times for voting between races.

The current administration has done THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what would help black people and black communities in each and every one of these cases, creating what, in terms of black communities, is the single most harmful administration since before the signing of the Civil Rights Act. So don't even try to sell us this garbage about how Toupee Fiasco is just trying to help those poor, poor black children by deporting DACA children (many of whom are are themselves black, by the way)

Last edited by Mumbles; 11th September 2017 at 11:00 AM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 11:03 AM   #156
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,306
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
We also know that black communities are more likely to have lead pollution
What do you mean?
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 11:09 AM   #157
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,715
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I don't mean if you can work with a Trump voter. Or be civil with them. I believe with time I could work with a Trump voter and be civil with them too.

But I have real doubts I will ever be able to forgive them. Deep down I'm just sort of thinking there will always be a sort of seething anger. I'm not sure if it is a sense of betrayal or what. I know it isn't healthy. I'll admit that. But I'm also a realist that knows that not everything that goes on in my head is healthy.

But what about you? Does it matter at all to you that someone voted in favor of so many unconscionable views and actions? Can you just look right past their choice?

Personally I feel that whatever my feelings I have to try and work with them. I'm not sure how but the other options sure don't look good for the whole nation in the long term.
It's okay, really. Holding a grudge is totally understandable in this situation. There's plenty not to like about how this election turned out. I don't blame you at all for feeling this way.

I admire your honesty about your feelings. And I respect your willingness to try to be civil and cooperative with people you hold a grudge against. Your feelings are yours to deal with however you can. How you choose to deal with others--especially those you dislike--is what makes a difference for the health of our society.

I forgive you for holding a grudge against me. If our positions were reversed, I'd probably do the same.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 11:12 AM   #158
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,911
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What do you mean?
probably that places like housing units in the inner city have lead based paint due to shoddy upkeep. At least in greater numbers than predominantly white areas
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 11:17 AM   #159
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,573
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Providing a safe haven for children brought here is clearly a good thing. Again, they came from places not too nice, otherwise their parents wouldn't have brought them to a country with a sizable population that hates them despite not knowing them.

800,000 hard-working children of immigrants. Yes, illegal immigrants. But they had no choice in the matter. They are benefiting society in ways you and I are not. Military members. First responders. Doctors. All free of the crime and drugs, a standard you people insisted they be free from in order to be treated as a human.

They are good people doing good things.
That's about where I land on the subject. The debate should be about whether to give them full citizenship or a long-term visa leading to full citizenship, not whether to deport them from a country that's theirs in all respects save accident of birth.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 11:23 AM   #160
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,517
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
That's about where I land on the subject. The debate should be about whether to give them full citizenship or a long-term visa leading to full citizenship, not whether to deport them from a country that's theirs in all respects save accident of birth.
Can we at least agree it was great to deport this criminal because his adoptive family never loved him enough to fill out the proper paperwork?

We need to get rid of the scum like this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b080eddf57b949
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:14 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.