ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 18th September 2017, 01:27 PM   #41
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,603
Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
I don't see how shooting to wound is such a difficult prospect, personally. Yes, center mass is easier to hit, but having fired weapons myself (yes, I am a military veteran and have fired multiple weapons), I think it's rather insulting to assume that trained police officers would only be able to hit center mass and therefore must aim there.
Actual statistics make it seem otherwise:

"New York City police statistics show that simply hitting a target, let alone hitting it in a specific spot, is a difficult challenge. In 2006, in cases where police officers intentionally fired a gun at a person, they discharged 364 bullets and hit their target 103 times, for a hit rate of 28.3 percent, according to the department’s Firearms Discharge Report.

In 2005, officers fired 472 times in the same circumstances, hitting their mark 82 times, for a 17.4 percent hit rate. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/we...w/09baker.html

... And that's trying for any hit. Not just when going for extremities...
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 01:37 PM   #42
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As for protection, I didn't see the danger at the point the cop shot.
The cop who shot was not in view. There's really no way to tell from the video how far away Scout was from the officer who fired.

And the danger is obvious. A mentally unhinged person is approaching with a weapon. That's a danger. Perhaps you meant you didn't see the immediacy of the danger which required the officer to fire at that moment (though again, you're not in a position to judge that from the video alone), but it was absolutely, without any question, a danger.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 03:05 PM   #43
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,440
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
*shrug* I had no trouble following it.
Because you knew the they/them preference. I read the article before your comment and assumed the former was written by someone with a poor command of the language. It does kind of highlight that they/them does not work well for an actual individual; it's awkward. It can work in situations like "Each player plays a card from their hand."

I am sorry that this tragedy affects you personally, and am not trying to be a pedant (and failing, I know). But awkward formulations like they/them just aren't going to work.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 03:47 PM   #44
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,358
In the UK in this situation the police confronting a student shouting at them to kill them with a (unopened) clasp knife would have bee unarmed. What would the police have done? Possibly called a para medic (obviously suicidal individual)? Called for help and tried to de-escalate? Confronted them with a riot shield? Talked them down? Just tackled them relying on their knife proof jackets? I can be certain that they would not have been shot. (Even if an armed response team attended).

I would be interested if anyone knows of articles about US police officers who have done attachments in the UK and what the police officer discovered about dealing with potentially violent situations when unarmed.

Last edited by Planigale; 18th September 2017 at 03:49 PM.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 04:22 PM   #45
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 15,984
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
In the UK in this situation the police confronting a student shouting at them to kill them with a (unopened) clasp knife would have bee unarmed. What would the police have done? Possibly called a para medic (obviously suicidal individual)? Called for help and tried to de-escalate? Confronted them with a riot shield? Talked them down? Just tackled them relying on their knife proof jackets? I can be certain that they would not have been shot. (Even if an armed response team attended).

I would be interested if anyone knows of articles about US police officers who have done attachments in the UK and what the police officer discovered about dealing with potentially violent situations when unarmed.
It really depends on the situation. A large part of it is the society as well. Consider this, if you are an armed civilian in the US and someone with a knife comes at you threateningly, are you allowed to shoot them using deadly force? If the answer is yes, then why is it a question on if the police should be afforded the same rights?

In the UK and other countries there is a different standard for self defence, like force. That means that Police have less options of going to deadly force because they need to match their force with the force being shown by the offender.

Their training also reflects this. US Police are trained to defend themselves the way their law is written, if they feel that a reasonable person would consider the threat as imminent, then they are to fire and aim at the centre of mass. Other police forces are trained in different techniques so that they can attempt to use like force on a suspect rather then upgrading to deadly force.

The Police shootings in the US are not a sign that US Police like to shoot people and other countries Police don't, it's a symptom of a society as a whole that thinks a very different way about personal protection and placing their own safety over other people's lives, and writes their laws that way.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 04:41 PM   #46
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,603
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
it's a symptom of a society as a whole that thinks a very different way about personal protection and placing their own safety over other people's lives, and writes their laws that way.
To put it another way, it's a society that favors the right of the innocent to not risk getting stabbed over the right of the knife wielding maniac to not get shot.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 05:15 PM   #47
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 15,984
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
To put it another way, it's a society that favors the right of the innocent to not risk getting stabbed over the right of the knife wielding maniac to not get shot.
I think the big difference in in the highlighted part. US Society isn't willing to allow any risk, and so gives the green light to deadly force at a reasonable belief of the risk existing. Other societies say that the risk has to actually be real and present first, not just a reasonable belief, and even then you can only met the risk with like force.

I don't think either way wants for innocent people to get hurt, but rather that one emphasises personal safety as the uttermost of importance even if that leads to mistakes, whereas the other says that in order to avoid mistakes then certainty and restrain is needed to try and best avoid the loss of any life, either the innocent of the maniac, even if that leads to the innocent being injuried.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.

Last edited by PhantomWolf; 18th September 2017 at 05:20 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 05:25 PM   #48
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,037
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I remember when the LAPD fired over 100 rounds from close range at a small pickup truck containing two ladies delivering newspapers, and did not kill the two ladies. IIRC, they only hit one of the ladies with two rounds.

There were numerous bullet holes in the trees and houses around the area.

Neither the truck nor the ladies looked anything at all like the suspect or the vehicle they were looking for.

In the Diallo case, NYPD fired 41 rounds to kill Diallo from close range. While they did hit him 19 times, they missed hem 22 times.

So I'm thinking that expecting them to "wing" a suspect is one hell of a stretch.
I think that allowing them to have guns is probably a stupid idea.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 05:29 PM   #49
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,026
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It really depends on the situation. A large part of it is the society as well. Consider this, if you are an armed civilian in the US and someone with a knife comes at you threateningly, are you allowed to shoot them using deadly force? If the answer is yes, then why is it a question on if the police should be afforded the same rights?


Because the police are doing a job in which they should expect to encounter these situations, and as such, are in a position to plan ahead. A civilian just going about their daily routine, who is then suddenly confronted by someone with a knife, cannot reasonably be expected to have knife proof vests, riot shield, tasers, beanbag shotguns, and the like, that cops have (or should have) available as part of their job. But when the police are responding to a call that clearly states that there's a person with a weapon, they go into the situation knowing that, and can be expected to plan a bit further ahead.

There are often times when cops have no warnings of impending violence, and so must resort to the one tool they have easily to hand, but this case didn't appear to be one of them.

And yes, this means that cops are often held to a higher standard than civilians. I don't see that as a problem.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 05:34 PM   #50
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,026
And it's also important to remember that lots of other police forces in the world don't seem to have a problem with expecting better from their police officers.

https://www.app.college.police.uk/ap...ethal-weapons/
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 06:08 PM   #51
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,541
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
The problem is, there's some middle ground between "tasers are magic" and "tasers are useless". This case seems like one where it would have at least been worth it to try a taser. This person spent at least a minute slowly approaching the cops, and ending up fairly close, a range at which it seems a taser could have been effective.

Would it have certainly stopped them? Maybe not, but it should have been worth the attempt. There was more than one cop there, why not have one of them try the taser, with the others there as back up if the taser fails?

If tasers couldn't be used here, then when could they be used?

"Excuse me disturbed person with knife. You are now close enough for my taser to be effective. Do you mind stopping momentarily while I change from gun to taser?"
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 06:35 PM   #52
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,541
What this was

Suicide by Cop

Nothing could have stopped him from eventually forcing the cops to kill him

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...918-story.html
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 06:53 PM   #53
autumn1971
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,037
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Suicide by Cop

Nothing could have stopped him from eventually forcing the cops to kill him

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...918-story.html
The article states that the blade of the multi-tool was not out and no guns were found. I would much rather my son get beaten with a nightstick than shot.
This is a case of police putting other people's lives, not their own, on the line.

I don't think "behave with more courage and thought than a drunken redneck" is too high a bar to set for a heavily armed police force.
__________________
'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."'
-The Bard
autumn1971 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 07:10 PM   #54
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,309
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Perhaps Czech people don´t have arteries in their legs?
https://www.policeone.com/use-of-for...kill-everyone/

“So tell me again about shooting in the legs?”

“Oh, I forgot, you are an American. You kill everyone!”

I thought to myself, “Whoa, hold on there Skippy, you’ve got to be kidding me — we kill everyone?!”

I guess he could read the incredulous look on my face because he said, “Look, I’ve been to the U.S. I’ve trained there. You teach all shots go to center mass followed by a head shot.”

“Yeah, but…” I said, my mind racing for an intelligent response. “There are reasons why we shoot at those locations.”

I began by telling him about deadly force in the United States. I was sure he had missed this part of his classroom instruction — perhaps it was the language barrier, I didn’t know — so I was going defend our method of using deadly force and outline the reasons why we only shot center mass.

I spoke rapidly, trying to outline our entire concept of police use of force. I told him that it was the largest target area of the body and the easiest to hit. I felt like I needed a chalkboard, some chalk. I wanted to draw pictures and graphs, use arrows and lines, and write smart-sounding definitions. I wanted to ‘wow’ him with my deep understanding of this issue and make him take back that last statement. I was, after all, the ‘expert’ they’d invited in from a foreign country. Besides, I couldn’t just let it go.

“We don’t shoot to kill,” I said. “We shoot to stop.”

He nodded and said, “Yeah, but that’s where your vitals are and a shot there would likely kill you.”

His arrogance was remarkable. I told him that it was our job to stop a subject, and the chest was the best area for doing that.

“Have you ever been shot in the leg?” He asked.

“Um, No.”

“Well, that will stop you — it is very painful.”

Now he was really getting under my skin.

“OK,” I said, “but surely your officers under stress are not going to demonstrate the marksmanship qualities they have on the range.” How in the world do you expect them to hit a skinny leg in motion?”

I had him this time.

“Here in the Czech Republic, most of our shootings occur in very close distance, two to three meters?” he retorted.

“Yeah,” I said without thinking, “It’s pretty much the same for us.”

Wrinkling his face, he replied, “You don’t think you can hit a leg at a distance of three to six feet?”

I reeled back — this guy was pissing me off.

“Okay,” I said, “but what if the round passes through? What about the round striking an innocent person who happened to be on the other side of the target?” Now I had him against the ropes, surely these cops are mindful of the dynamic environment in which law enforcement plays out.

Again, he responded without hesitation. “That’s another reason why we aim to the legs. At the distance we usually fire — remember, two to three meters — the bullet has a trajectory towards the ground of only a few feet. A pass through is rare — we use hollow point bullets — but if it does occur, it is not likely to travel much farther.”

He paused, and continued, “You see Roy, here in the Czech Republic we don’t always shoot to kill. Sometimes we shoot to stop — it’s our non lethal shooting.”

I countered, “Non-lethal shots… huh? C’mon, You know, there is probably not a single square inch on the body that is not packed with veins, arteries, or major group of blood rich capillaries that once shot will cause the subject to bleed out.”

As soon as I spoke I realized was now becoming indignant and desperate.

“Yes sir, there is always that possibility, but with medical technology today it is rare that a non-vital shot will ever result in death.”

I thought back to something I heard in the academy years ago. It was meant to be inspirational, but had also become a statistical fact in countries with modern emergency services.

“If you are shot, and you know you are shot, you will probably survive the wound.”

I’ve repeated this many times in the classroom but never had I considered it from the other guy’s perspective. It would be true that if a bad guy was shot and he knew he was shot, he too would likely survive the wound. I guessed that most cops — if forced to take a round in a gunfight — would also rather be shot in the leg than in the heart or head, based solely on the probability of survival. It was intuitive and didn’t require a survey. But I wasn’t done yet. I was representing decades of solid professional American law enforcement philosophy. This whole, “we don’t shoot to kill” concept was a cornerstone of modern police training.

I came back with a fastball. “Well, what if the guy is shooting at you? Dropping him to the ground with a leg shot may stop the forward attack but it is not likely to stop the threat?” he can still fire at you — and you wont have time to assess the continued threat to see if he stopped!

He grinned at me, “If he is shooting at you? Well, then we use lethal shots — two to the chest, one to the head.”

He smacked it out of the park. If you are being shot at, well, then you use lethal shots — two to the chest and one on the head. Of course you do!
I read the article, and have no clue where the Czech Trainer got his information, but standard LE service caliber handguns (9mm, '40 and .45), even using the best performing JHPs will absolutely exit a human leg - The Czech's must have tougher legs or weaker ammo.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 07:55 PM   #55
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,541
Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
The article states that the blade of the multi-tool was not out and no guns were found. I would much rather my son get beaten with a nightstick than shot.
This is a case of police putting other people's lives, not their own, on the line.

I don't think "behave with more courage and thought than a drunken redneck" is too high a bar to set for a heavily armed police force.
Your bias against law enforcement noted.

They (the police) were operating on the information that a disturbance is being caused by a possibly drunk white male armed with a knife and gun.

The blade of the multi-tool was not out, but the tool itself was opened, so the metal bodied tool looked like an open knife if not examined too closely.

Planned Suicide by cop
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 08:10 PM   #56
Norman Alexander
Master Poster
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,101
Did they have tasers? There were two cops. Why didn't one of them try a taser as first resort while the other covered him? Yes, tasers aren't magic or perfect. But it is likely it would have stopped this guy enough to crash-tackle him. Yep, bruising, scrapes, cuts, twisted arms and all that. But the chances are higher everyone comes away from this alive. Have I missed anything?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 08:25 PM   #57
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,541
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Did they have tasers? There were two cops. Why didn't one of them try a taser as first resort while the other covered him? Yes, tasers aren't magic or perfect. But it is likely it would have stopped this guy enough to crash-tackle him. Yep, bruising, scrapes, cuts, twisted arms and all that. But the chances are higher everyone comes away from this alive. Have I missed anything?
The University Police do not have Tasers.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 09:37 PM   #58
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,026
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
"Excuse me disturbed person with knife. You are now close enough for my taser to be effective. Do you mind stopping momentarily while I change from gun to taser?"

From the video and pictures I saw, there were at least three cops there, and they had been there long enough to give them several commands to drop the knife, and say things like "No one wants to hurt you". Maybe just possibly they could have had some sort of plan that, in that situation, one of them could have gotten a taser out first, rather than their gun?


Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
The University Police do not have Tasers.

And that's just incredibly *********** stupid. The one type of person that University cops are absolutely, 100% guaranteed to have to deal with are belligerent drunk idiots, and yet, the only use of force options they have are lethal ones?

Incredibly *********** Stupid.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 10:07 PM   #59
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,541
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
From the video and pictures I saw, there were at least three cops there, and they had been there long enough to give them several commands to drop the knife, and say things like "No one wants to hurt you". Maybe just possibly they could have had some sort of plan that, in that situation, one of them could have gotten a taser out first, rather than their gun?





And that's just incredibly *********** stupid. The one type of person that University cops are absolutely, 100% guaranteed to have to deal with are belligerent drunk idiots, and yet, the only use of force options they have are lethal ones?

Incredibly *********** Stupid.

Belligerent drunk idiots who pay their salary. And non-lethal force is more likely to be used.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 10:23 PM   #60
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,071
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Belligerent drunk idiots who pay their salary. And non-lethal force is more likely to be used.

Yeah. The rewards for a cop trying to de-escalate an encounter with a disturbed individual are indisputable.

Weirton terminates officer who did not fire at man with gun
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 11:07 PM   #61
Sabrina
Wicked Lovely
 
Sabrina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,549
And it would appear that what I feared has already come to happen.

Violent protests erupted on Georgia Tech's campus following a candlelight vigil for Scout.

To be fair, it appears the people who participated in the vigil and those who participated in the violence against the campus police station are two separate groups, but it merely highlights the issue here; some people are absolutely going to overreact to this situation and just end up making a bad situation worse.
__________________
"All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope."-Winston Churchill
"Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do"-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985.
Sabrina is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 11:36 PM   #62
Abooga
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 704
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I read the article, and have no clue where the Czech Trainer got his information, but standard LE service caliber handguns (9mm, '40 and .45), even using the best performing JHPs will absolutely exit a human leg - The Czech's must have tougher legs or weaker ammo.
Yet here in Europe one often hears news in which police deter someone using just that, a shot in the legs, so perhaps being shot in a leg, even if the bullet exits, is painful and deterring enough. In the case of the OP, looking at the video, I think it could have been done, and Scout may still be alive.
Abooga is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 11:40 PM   #63
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 15,984
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Because the police are doing a job in which they should expect to encounter these situations, and as such, are in a position to plan ahead. A civilian just going about their daily routine, who is then suddenly confronted by someone with a knife, cannot reasonably be expected to have knife proof vests, riot shield, tasers, beanbag shotguns, and the like, that cops have (or should have) available as part of their job. But when the police are responding to a call that clearly states that there's a person with a weapon, they go into the situation knowing that, and can be expected to plan a bit further ahead.

There are often times when cops have no warnings of impending violence, and so must resort to the one tool they have easily to hand, but this case didn't appear to be one of them.

And yes, this means that cops are often held to a higher standard than civilians. I don't see that as a problem.
The part I have high-lighted is the part I'm going to concentrate on. While most cops will likely have a Taser on them (edited: Apparently not the Uni Cops though....), they don't routinely carry riot gear, bean bag shot guns etc in their vehicles, these are kept at the station, and when a call come in, it's not the cops that are at the station that answer that call, but the ones that are closest and not already busy. This means that the first responders won't have riot gear and beanbag shotguns, they'll have their standard load out, which in the US will include a ballistic armour vest (what we'd incorrectly call a bullet -proof vest) and this is important because a Stab Resistant vest and a Bullet Resistant Vest have very different properties meaning that while a bullet resistant vest might, if you are lucky with how you are struck, lessen an injury from a knife, it's not going to stop it any more than a knife resistant vest will stop a bullet. US Cops rarely wear stab resistant vests which means that they are actually more vulnerable to knives than to guns!

This means that generally US Cops are going to be under trained, under equipped and unable to handle a knife wielding suspect when compared to how the UK, Aust, or NZ cops do. And you also need to remember that UK, Aust and NZ cops have shot and killed people wielding knives before even with all of that!

So that leaves the Taser. A Taser is a one shot weapon that if you miss or one of the barbs fails to get through the suspect's clothing, of the battery has a problem or.... you become defenceless, and remember, your vest is useless against a knife.

Add to this a culture when those that are guilty, (or seen as guilty) are considered worth less that the innocent, and you have a culture where firing when threatened is considered the norm.

Now yes if they have the time to get backup and bring in other equipment that they can use, they should, but expecting the first responders to suit up in riot gear every time they get a call out... isn't one of the complaints that the Police are already too militarized?
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.

Last edited by PhantomWolf; 18th September 2017 at 11:47 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 11:46 PM   #64
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 15,984
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And that's just incredibly *********** stupid. The one type of person that University cops are absolutely, 100% guaranteed to have to deal with are belligerent drunk idiots, and yet, the only use of force options they have are lethal ones?

Incredibly *********** Stupid.
Most belligerent drunk idiots aren't wielding knives....
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2017, 11:51 PM   #65
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,105
I can think of all manner of reasons why a taser might or might not be the right choice of weapon in a given situation, but why is it that some police departments choose not to equip their officers with tasers at all?
Civet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 12:20 AM   #66
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,358
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/what_to_bring.png
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 06:33 AM   #67
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,034
Years ago, I attended a "risk management" seminar regarding police use of force. The fellow doing the presentation, an attorney, pointed out that in many cases officers had no provision for anything but going from hand-to-hand combat....To gun.
The idea of the "continuum of force" was in it's infancy, and this guy was promoting it.

It has since generally become standard, though not in all cases as we see. Our department has the full boat of options. In addition to "officer presence" and "de-escalation" techniques, we have pepper-spray, Taser (the new 2-shot model) baton, and gun.

The Taser is a useful device within it's limitations, and it has been the object of a lot of controversy. There have been deaths "associated" with the device. That is also controversial.
The bulk of these deaths are the result of things like "cocaine intoxication syndrome" which may cause respiratory failure after hard exertion, like fighting with police.
Some of these people may have heart attacks...Again, the exertion of fighting.
There have been cases where police rather foolishly used the Taser on individuals who were standing precariously and who fell, killing or injuring themselves.

The early promotion of the device was that it was harmless and "Use early, use often" was the training advice. We were shown an initial training video where a belligerent drunk was Tased repeatedly overly 30 minutes by a single officer until backup arrived to help cuff the guy.
After each "application", the guy would get up and try to attack the officer....
There was a recent NPR segment on the dangers of the device and claims that Taser International was covering up or minimizing same.

Still, thousands of officers have been Tased in training with only a couple of injuries, and those primarily by poorly-controlled falls. Of course, these are mostly young, fit individuals in good health.

Beating drunk/drugged individuals into submission with nightsticks is equally problematic.
Witness Rodney King. When one is in such condition, sheer pain is often ineffective. The officer's well-placed strikes to nerve plexus areas, which work so well in training, may have no effect. The officer resorts to strikes to the head... Or goes up the continuum of force to the firearm.
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 07:15 AM   #68
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,706
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Yet here in Europe one often hears news in which police deter someone using just that, a shot in the legs, so perhaps being shot in a leg, even if the bullet exits, is painful and deterring enough. In the case of the OP, looking at the video, I think it could have been done, and Scout may still be alive.
I've never seen reports of that. Do you have a cite?
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 07:30 AM   #69
Ian Osborne
JREF Kid
Tagger
 
Ian Osborne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,561
I hate trigger-happy cops as much as the next guy, but in this case, there seemed little option but to shoot the assailant. No doubt more information will come out over time, but for now, my thoughts are with the family of the person who was shot and also with the person who did the shooting.
__________________
"Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine

"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan
Ian Osborne is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 07:41 AM   #70
Varanid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,248
I am pretty quick to call out inappropriate police behavior, and I don't have much love for cops on the best of days, but this does not look to be the same type of situation as many of the recent shootings.

If an irrational person approached me with a knife, I'd probably do the same.
__________________
"I love the poorly educated" -- Donald Trump
Varanid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 07:49 AM   #71
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 54,993
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They are taught to shoot to kill if you need to shoot. It's a shame they didn't try to taze him. I understand (assuming the guy had a knife), it's not as bad as those shootings where the guy was doing what the cops told them to do. But it still seems unnecessary.

I also agree, if you can taze someone, why can't you shoot the guy in the leg or something.
Just repeating already noted, but you (police person) could well be fired for not firing C of M for the noted reason. Of course, the triple tap is best (two C of M and a head shot - aka Mozamibiqueing) but is not practiced much in the US. Best used against Hashishim............
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

Last edited by fuelair; 19th September 2017 at 07:52 AM.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:26 AM   #72
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,706
No One Becomes a Cop Because It’s Safe

Quote:
How much risk is it fair to ask a police officer to take? Speaking as someone who has never patrolled a dark alley, answered a 911 call, or raced to the scene of a shooting spree, my first inclination is to say, “I don’t know and it’s not for me to judge.”

My second inclination, though, is to say that it’s a police officer’s job to take risks the rest of us are unable or unwilling to take. That is why the vast majority of police officers, the ones who perform their duties admirably and selflessly, deserve our respect and admiration. The reason we revere cops isn’t their dedication to protecting their own lives. It’s their dedication to protecting ours.
So here is the crux. We want good people to become cops. Then we complain that they get get paid too much relative to the education required, and we criticize them for being too risk-averse, too willing to use force to protect themselves. Could it be that we have unrealistic expectations? Should we be willing to pay them more, possibly a lot more, if that's what it takes to recruit people into the job who are willing to expose themselves to more risk?
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:34 AM   #73
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,232
It does kinda blow my mind that facing one dude with a leatherman knockoff, three cops' best option is to shoot. Is this one of those things where they're told by dispatch that the suspect has a gun so they have to shoot? Or is it the standard 'something in hand, too risky to evaluate further' thing?

How often do people who try to tackle doughy looking wielders of knives too small to see, 3 to one get badly injured? maybe they thought it was a closed butterfly knife?

ETA: I have never complained that cops are paid too much. As for the education required I think if anything they should be entitled to a lot more of it as a job perk/requirement (not an out of pocket expense).

Last edited by Lithrael; 19th September 2017 at 08:57 AM.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:35 AM   #74
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,002
multipurpose tool

According to a lawyer for the family, Scout held a multipurpose tool that had a knife among other tools. "'The knife wasn’t even open. That was the truth…that’s what Georgia Tech didn’t tell you,' Stewart said, adding that the officer was about 20 feet away when he fired a bullet into Schultz’s heart."

It may have been suicide by cop. Apparently Scout Schultz made the call to police.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 19th September 2017 at 08:56 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:50 AM   #75
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Could it be that we have unrealistic expectations? Should we be willing to pay them more, possibly a lot more, if that's what it takes to recruit people into the job who are willing to expose themselves to more risk?
With regard to accepting risk, I think that cops perform within what I consider acceptable parameters the vast majority of the time. The department in this case, for example, seems to have an excellent track record with regard to the use of lethal force. I doubt that pay hikes would do anything to reduce the likelihood of outlier incidents like this one. There are, of course, some lousy police departments out there. That usually seems to have more to do with poor training/leadership/oversight than it does with pay scales.
I should also add here that I don't think the officers in this case behaved inappropriately. I do think that their department should have issued them tasers so they'd have that as an option, but I don't think the cops did anything wrong here.

Last edited by Civet; 19th September 2017 at 08:58 AM. Reason: afterthought
Civet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:55 AM   #76
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,543
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
How often do people who try to tackle doughy looking sub-2-inch knife wielders 3 to one get badly injured?
Box cutters seemed to get the job done on a certain September morning.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 08:58 AM   #77
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,517
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Box cutters seemed to get the job done on a certain September morning.
Depends on what the job was, they didn't exactly kill a lot of cops with them. That was the airplanes.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 09:10 AM   #78
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,232
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Box cutters seemed to get the job done on a certain September morning.
Pithy. What were the injuries done by the knives to people who ganged up on the wielders to subdue them? ETA, quick reading makes it look like one guy was killed when he tried to fight back by himself. And I don't see anyone saying how big the knives were, which they had in addition to the box cutters.

Last edited by Lithrael; 19th September 2017 at 09:19 AM.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #79
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,543
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Depends on what the job was, they didn't exactly kill a lot of cops with them. That was the airplanes.
Doesn't take much effort to find a whole bunch of YouTube videos depicting knife attacks, how quickly they can occur, how deadly they can turn out, even after a suspect/crazy has been wounded, sometimes mortally. Armchair quarterbacking aside, if you've ever been in a deadly situation with a knife wielder, you'll know what I mean.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2017, 09:17 AM   #80
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,543
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Pithy. What were the injuries done by the knives to people who ganged up on the wielders to subdue them?
It is very simple to armchair quarterback these situations, especially when one has no experience. While I'd agree that a folded pocket tool isn't much of a threat multiplier, a blade of any size can be lethal.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane

Last edited by Resume; 19th September 2017 at 09:24 AM.
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:57 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.