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Old 19th September 2017, 09:19 AM   #81
LTC8K6
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https://i.imgur.com/LWa9uUp.jpg

Blade looks visible to me?
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:19 AM   #82
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Yep. Those with experience, and pretty much every self-defense trainer, will tell you that if you get into a hand-to-hand fight against a knife you ARE going to get cut. Even if you're freaking awesome. Unless, maybe, you're Chuck Norris.

Okay, so no, you aren't guaranteed to get cut, but seriously: training will emphasize that getting into hand-to-hand against a knife should be a last resort, and you should go in fully expecting to be cut.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:25 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yep. Those with experience, and pretty much every self-defense trainer, will tell you that if you get into a hand-to-hand fight against a knife you ARE going to get cut. Even if you're freaking awesome. Unless, maybe, you're Chuck Norris.

Okay, so no, you aren't guaranteed to get cut, but seriously: training will emphasize that getting into hand-to-hand against a knife should be a last resort, and you should go in fully expecting to be cut.
Nonsense! If there's anything I've learned from movies, it's that the guy with the knife is at a disadvantage.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:37 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
https://i.imgur.com/LWa9uUp.jpg

Blade looks visible to me?
Weird, that looks waaayy too big to be the knife of the multitool in the photo that's been going around.

I'm not trying to armchair quarterback here, you'll notice I didn't say 'why didn't they tackle him' I just am honestly surprised there are no better options than deadly force when you have so much space and multiple officers to work with. And yes my uninformed assumption would be that three trained people vs one guy with a small knife with plenty of time to prepare in the middle of an open space would not usually get very badly injured, so I asked. I don't know how to google that kind of thing without just getting survivalist sites selling you tactical weapons between every paragraph.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:42 AM   #85
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It doesn't really matter if the blade was in or out. Lots of folding blades can be deployed in less than a second with just a little bit of practice.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:42 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
https://i.imgur.com/LWa9uUp.jpg

Blade looks visible to me?
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Weird, that looks waaayy too big to be the knife of the multitool in the photo that's been going around.
Is that the blade, or is that part of the unfolded "handle" of the blade, albeit held like one might hold a blade?
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
The article states that the blade of the multi-tool was not out and no guns were found. I would much rather my son get beaten with a nightstick than shot.
This is a case of police putting other people's lives, not their own, on the line.

I don't think "behave with more courage and thought than a drunken redneck" is too high a bar to set for a heavily armed police force.
This was my first thought. Don't police still carry batons? It would seem fairly simple to crack the knife hand while staying out of cut range. Not working with a gun, obviously.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:47 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
It doesn't really matter if the blade was in or out. Lots of folding blades can be deployed in less than a second with just a little bit of practice.
Yeah, I was wondering if they had to assume it was a butterfly knife. Call it armchair, but I can understand not wanting to tangle with that a lot more than I can understand not wanting to tangle with a closed multitool (as some people have been saying it was).
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:48 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
It would seem fairly simple to crack the knife hand while staying out of cut range.
Wanna bet your life on it?
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:49 AM   #90
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Is it a blade?

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
https://i.imgur.com/LWa9uUp.jpg

Blade looks visible to me?
Based on this photo alone, it is unclear to me whether or not that is a blade. Might be the whole multi tool.

Until what Scott Greenfield at the blog Simple Justice calls the reasonably scared cop rule changes, I expect to see more police shootings.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:50 AM   #91
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Here in Pittsburgh, police dealt with an assailant, who was already a known dangerous criminal, who stabbed a police dog, then stabbed an officer and attacked other officers, and they still managed to apprehend with without firing a shot. It can be done.
"Rush, a convicted sex offender, was being sought on a bench warrant for his arrest when a sheriff’s deputy spotted him in Lawrenceville on Jan. 28, 2014. Rush fought with the deputy, tried to disarm him and then hid in the basement of an apartment building.
Pittsburgh officers responded and warned Rush to come out or they would send in the dog. Rocco was released, and Rush stabbed him and Officer Lerza and fought with other officers. Rocco died two days later."

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/ci...s/201503100159
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:55 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Psi Baba View Post
Here in Pittsburgh, police dealt with an assailant, who was already a known dangerous criminal, who stabbed a police dog, then stabbed an officer and attacked other officers, and they still managed to apprehend with without firing a shot.
In the case you cite, I am not sure it should have been done - the guy killed a police dog and wounded a cop.

It can be done does not mean that it always should be done.
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Old 19th September 2017, 09:56 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Wanna bet your life on it?
Against that slow moving, relatively docile looking kid? Yes, I would, in the interests of not killing someone who did not need to die. Do firefighters say 'I'm not going in there, there's a fire. Might get hurt'? No, you do the best you can and take reasonable risks. No gun seen on a lone suspect should usually mean no shooting (unless he reaches towards his waistband or something similar).
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:04 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Weird, that looks waaayy too big to be the knife of the multitool in the photo that's been going around.

I'm not trying to armchair quarterback here, you'll notice I didn't say 'why didn't they tackle him' I just am honestly surprised there are no better options than deadly force when you have so much space and multiple officers to work with. And yes my uninformed assumption would be that three trained people vs one guy with a small knife with plenty of time to prepare in the middle of an open space would not usually get very badly injured, so I asked. I don't know how to google that kind of thing without just getting survivalist sites selling you tactical weapons between every paragraph.
A few ideas off the top of my head. Taser (news article I read said this campus police force is not equipped with them).

Pepper spray (yes, I know it has significant limitations).

Tranquilizer gun.The wrong dosage can be lethal, and may not work quickly enough, so it's far from perfect, but we do use these sometimes for dangerous animals, so it seems like it might be sometimes workable for humans.

Lariat (lasso). This one requires considerable skill that most cops probably don't have, but I've seen rodeo cowboys get a loop around a calf's leg or a steers horns from a considerable distance. If you could get a loop around the arms of the guy with a knife, it might be possible to disarm him before he can free himself.

Throw a net over him (similar to previous).

I don't know how practical any of these are, but it seems that we could find some non-lethal way to deal with people armed with knives. This one certainly appears to be suicide by cop, but it's a damned shame that the police couldn't find some way to deal with it other than shooting him.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:13 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yeah, I was wondering if they had to assume it was a butterfly knife. Call it armchair, but I can understand not wanting to tangle with that a lot more than I can understand not wanting to tangle with a closed multitool (as some people have been saying it was).
Leatherman and other quality multitools have a lot of models with thumb-stud or assisted flick deployment from the closed tool. A cop has to assume that any closed knife or tool flicks.

Still, if that's all he has, a baton seems like a life-saving move, especially if you are backed up by other officers.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:26 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Against that slow moving, relatively docile looking kid? Yes, I would, in the interests of not killing someone who did not need to die.
When someone with a weapon decides to commit suicide by cop, it's pretty hard to stop them. Your best chance is really to do something left of boom.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:33 AM   #97
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I suppose another option is to simply tell campus police to stay out of harm's way. Drunk, belligerent student wandering the campus with a knife? Don't bother calling the police. Not their problem.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:36 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When someone with a weapon decides to commit suicide by cop, it's pretty hard to stop them.
Does that guy look particularly hard to stop? There are times when a suspect may pose a livelier threat, but here? And does a cop need to comply with a suspect's instruction to shoot him? Police handle the mentally ill. They don't all need to be killed because they might pose a theoretical threat (as in, some guy says he might have a gun).

Quote:
Your best chance is really to do something left of boom.
That's true. Best chance for the cop, don't worry about some mentally ill student. I hope a cop doesn't advocate that philosophy on my next traffic stop. He might think I could perhaps pose a threat.

ETA: forgot: If someone is depressed or despondent, does that mean they are a real threat? Might they just be saying 'shoot me' with no intent at all of hurting anyone?
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Last edited by Thermal; 19th September 2017 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:42 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I suppose another option is to simply tell campus police to stay out of harm's way. Drunk, belligerent student wandering the campus with a knife? Don't bother calling the police. Not their problem.
I suppose another option is for police to simply start shooting at anyone who moves. Could be a threat, ya know.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:47 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Does that guy look particularly hard to stop?
I don't trust looks.

Quote:
That's true. Best chance for the cop, don't worry about some mentally ill student. I hope a cop doesn't advocate that philosophy on my next traffic stop. He might think I could perhaps pose a threat.
You misunderstand completely. "Left of boom" in this case means before he decided to commit suicide by cop. The best chance to save anyone from suicide is before they decide to do it.

Quote:
ETA: forgot: If someone is depressed or despondent, does that mean they are a real threat? Might they just be saying 'shoot me' with no intent at all of hurting anyone?
Maybe, maybe not. Cops shouldn't have to risk their lives to find out. Certainly some people committing suicide by cop have no compunction about hurting others along the way.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:59 AM   #101
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I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how the cop is in the wrong here.
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Old 19th September 2017, 10:59 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't trust looks.
But when deciding to kill someone, shouldn't every other option be tried first? Last resort and all?

Quote:
You misunderstand completely. "Left of boom" in this case means before he decided to commit suicide by cop. The best chance to save anyone from suicide is before they decide to do it.
I understand 'left of boom' to mean immediately before opening fire. Immediately before opening fire in the OP was pretty much like the preceding minutes. If you mean that mentally ill should get help long before they hit the wall, amen, brother.

Quote:
Maybe, maybe not. Cops shouldn't have to risk their lives to find out. Certainly some people committing suicide by cop have no compunction about hurting others along the way.
Tru dat. But that's where this thread goes, right? What level of risk should a cop accept before killing? If the suspect has nothing that goes bang, is it reasonable for police to try and keep him alive before shooting?
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:11 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how the cop is in the wrong here.
I think a lot of people wish it wasn't so easy for the mentally ill to push the cops into shooting them. It would be nice if the cops had more options before pulling the trigger.

In this case I do not know what other options would have helped. But this cop was left thinking "shoot or be stabbed" and that is a bad situation to put a cop in.

Cops have a great deal of power and responsibility in our society. Mentally ill people shouldn't be able to make these decisions for them.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:16 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I understand 'left of boom' to mean immediately before opening fire.
That is incorrect. It means everything to the left of the bad event, on a left-to-right timeline.

I also consider the entire episode starting with Scout's erratic behavior that got the police called in to be the boom. That's the point at which, even had the police disarmed him without hurting him, bad consequences of one level or another were unavoidable.

Quote:
If you mean that mentally ill should get help long before they hit the wall, amen, brother.
Yes.

Quote:
Tru dat. But that's where this thread goes, right? What level of risk should a cop accept before killing? If the suspect has nothing that goes bang, is it reasonable for police to try and keep him alive before shooting?
They did. One may argue that they should have done more, but it's not like they showed up on scene, whipped out their guns and just killed him on sight. We don't see what the officer who fired was doing in the released video, but we do clearly see another officer retreat and put a barrier between himself and Scout, precisely to give more time to try to resolve the situation without using deadly force.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:22 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is incorrect. It means everything to the left of the bad event, on a left-to-right timeline.

I also consider the entire episode starting with Scout's erratic behavior that got the police called in to be the boom. That's the point at which, even had the police disarmed him without hurting him, bad consequences of one level or another were unavoidable.
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard this morning that Scout was the one who called in the police. Not that this changes what you are saying, since it would have been better for all if Scout had received mental health services before feeling like that call was an option.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:28 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't trust looks.
Kill them all, the lord will know his own. Policing 101 that.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:30 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard this morning that Scout was the one who called in the police. Not that this changes what you are saying, since it would have been better for all if Scout had received mental health services before feeling like that call was an option.
But an execution is the only acceptable form of government paid for mental health care we have in the US.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:31 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Kill them all, the lord will know his own. Policing 101 that.
Yeah, that's totally what I'm saying.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:47 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
It is very simple to armchair quarterback these situations, especially when one has no experience. While I'd agree that a folded pocket tool isn't much of a threat multiplier, a blade of any size can be lethal.
Also you don't know it's just a multi tool.

Before I realized I'd rather not have a weapon charge than own a butterfly knife I found many tutorials on how to turn various things into one. Multi tips were near the top of the list in regards to preferred objects.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:59 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard this morning that Scout was the one who called in the police. Not that this changes what you are saying, since it would have been better for all if Scout had received mental health services before feeling like that call was an option.
I'm inclined to agree, but I also haven't seen enough information in the stories I've read about the incident to know what types of mental health services Scout may have already received or whether Scout was willing to accept treatment.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:08 PM   #111
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Is there a difference in injury severity if you are stabbed or slashed by someone who is mentally ill vs. someone who is not?
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:29 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how the cop is in the wrong here.


In the situation at hand, with the equipment and training that was available, they weren't in the wrong.


The problem is, the system we've developed has delivered a lot of cops with inadequate training, and provided them with inadequate equipment, such that their only options in such cases are bad ones. That's the real problem at hand here.

The other problem is an attitudinal one - look at some of the response above. People point out that this situation is unacceptable, and in response, rather than acknowledging that, and agreeing that maybe US cops should take a serious look at some of the things that are done by other police forces around the world, we get a litany of excuses about why that Just Can't Be Done!
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, that's totally what I'm saying.
Look police are clear that they only escalate force, which is why killing is the only option for emotionally disturbed persons.

When you try to find out about their use of force policies they just make up crap by redacting a bunch of unrelated documents and pretend that it answered the FOI request.

http://www.recordonline.com/news/201...-law-responses

The police are at way, and the mentally ill are the enemy.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:56 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Is that the blade, or is that part of the unfolded "handle" of the blade, albeit held like one might hold a blade?
Wait until he gets closer so you can tell...

Ever been stabbed with a pair of long nose pliers?

He's holding something in his hand that could easily be taken for a weapon, or quickly opened into a weapon, so it doesn't matter if it it's opened or not.

It's not unreasonable to treat the item as a weapon held in the suspect's hand.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:57 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard this morning that Scout was the one who called in the police. Not that this changes what you are saying, since it would have been better for all if Scout had received mental health services before feeling like that call was an option.
Between Scout and the Australian woman, we in the USA need to carefully consider whether or not we need to call the police.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:57 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Wait until he gets closer so you can tell...

Ever been stabbed with a pair of long nose pliers?

He's holding something in his hand that could easily be taken for a weapon, or quickly opened into a weapon, so it doesn't matter if it it's opened or not.

It's not unreasonable to treat the item as a weapon held in the suspect's hand.
Better kill 100 emotionally disturbed people/people who don't speak or hear english than have one officer wounded.
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Old 19th September 2017, 12:58 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Between Scout and the Australian woman, we in the USA need to carefully consider whether or not we need to call the police.
The question is this, will introducing a bunch of violent thugs to the situation help.
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Old 19th September 2017, 01:07 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look police are clear that they only escalate force, which is why killing is the only option for emotionally disturbed persons.
This kind of hyperbole does not help your argument.

Are you ready to provide evidence that every interaction between a police officer and an emotionally disturbed person results in killing (seeing as how that is their only option), or would you like to rephrase your statement?
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Old 19th September 2017, 01:12 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Better kill 100 emotionally disturbed people/people who don't speak or hear english than have one officer wounded.
That is a fairly brash statement and by golly I trust you have the stats to back that up!
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Old 19th September 2017, 01:14 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This kind of hyperbole does not help your argument.

Are you ready to provide evidence that every interaction between a police officer and an emotionally disturbed person results in killing (seeing as how that is their only option), or would you like to rephrase your statement?
The point is that calling the police is a bad idea just because someone is emotionally disturbed. They are far too violent for it to be a reliable method of dealing with them.
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