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Old 19th September 2017, 01:45 PM   #121
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The point is that calling the police is a bad idea just because someone is emotionally disturbed. They are far too violent for it to be a reliable method of dealing with them.

As experience has shown, it isn't particularly safe to even be near a disturbed or impaired person. Not even when you are lying on your back with both hands in the air, yelling "Don't shoot!".

It's no wonder that standing up, moving toward them slowly, with something in your hand which might be a weapon is viewed as a viable method of suicide.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 19th September 2017 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 19th September 2017, 02:04 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Because the police are doing a job in which they should expect to encounter these situations, and as such, are in a position to plan ahead. A civilian just going about their daily routine, who is then suddenly confronted by someone with a knife, cannot reasonably be expected to have knife proof vests, riot shield, tasers, beanbag shotguns, and the like, that cops have (or should have) available as part of their job. But when the police are responding to a call that clearly states that there's a person with a weapon, they go into the situation knowing that, and can be expected to plan a bit further ahead.

There are often times when cops have no warnings of impending violence, and so must resort to the one tool they have easily to hand, but this case didn't appear to be one of them.

And yes, this means that cops are often held to a higher standard than civilians. I don't see that as a problem.
Absolutely.
"To Serve and Protect"
In my eyes, that means you go quite a distance to protect.
A person with a knife can engage only one person at a time, and his weapon is ineffective (Generally) at more than arm's length. Evasive maneuvering on the part of the cop, while deploying a taser (either himself or a partner) will usually eliminate the loss of life, while putting the perp on the ground.
Cops are supposed to take some risk, rather than the "Aw, **** it. Shoot the bastard" attitude they seem to have.
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Old 19th September 2017, 04:45 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yeah. The rewards for a cop trying to de-escalate an encounter with a disturbed individual are indisputable.

Weirton terminates officer who did not fire at man with gun
There was more to it than the incident you cite. From your link:

"The notice of termination included two other incidents in which the city believed Mr. Mader acted improperly: An incident in April where neither he nor two other more experienced officers - the same two who were involved in the Williams’ case - reported as suspicious the death of an elderly woman who appeared to have had a stroke and fallen in her home, though no one has been charged in her death; and an incident in March when a woman complained that Mr. Mader was rude and swore at her when she asked why her husband was being arrested for disorderly conduct over receiving a parking ticket."


Mader was also in his probationary year, and sop in most departments is that they cut loose potential problem officers sooner rather than later.
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Old 19th September 2017, 05:12 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
There was more to it than the incident you cite. From your link:

"The notice of termination included two other incidents in which the city believed Mr. Mader acted improperly: An incident in April where neither he nor two other more experienced officers - the same two who were involved in the Williams’ case - reported as suspicious the death of an elderly woman who appeared to have had a stroke and fallen in her home, though no one has been charged in her death; and an incident in March when a woman complained that Mr. Mader was rude and swore at her when she asked why her husband was being arrested for disorderly conduct over receiving a parking ticket."


Mader was also in his probationary year, and sop in most departments is that they cut loose potential problem officers sooner rather than later.
??

Different source



Quote:
Despite the fact that the termination letter focuses most of its attention on the decision not to shoot Williams, department officials subsequently told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette the incident was “not a primary factor in his termination”.

Officials cited two other incidents involving Mader. Only one is mentioned in the letter, in just two sentences.

By contrast, on the Williams shooting the letter reads that Mader “should be dismissed from employment … due to to negligence on his part during the incident that occurred on 6 May 2016, in which a fellow officer had to react and unfortunately take the life of the suspect”.
That whole case seems a bit crazy to me.

I just looked out of interest at West Virginia gun law, and it's a joke

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_West_Virginia

No permits required
No registration required
Carry permit not required
Open carry doesn't require a permit

The article says the gun was pointed at the ground, so effectively according to the law he wasn't doing jack wrong, apart from not putting it on the ground

Remind me to avoid the place
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Old 19th September 2017, 05:42 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how the cop is in the wrong here.
If the cop is a trigger-happy loon or happy he did the right thing, none of us are safe.
If the cop shot out of fear or in response to his training, he will be miserable for years.

Neither option is right.
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Old 19th September 2017, 05:51 PM   #126
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Quote:
There was more to it than the incident you cite. From your link:

"The notice of termination included two other incidents in which the city believed Mr. Mader acted improperly: An incident in April where neither he nor two other more experienced officers - the same two who were involved in the Williams’ case - reported as suspicious the death of an elderly woman who appeared to have had a stroke and fallen in her home, though no one has been charged in her death; and an incident in March when a woman complained that Mr. Mader was rude and swore at her when she asked why her husband was being arrested for disorderly conduct over receiving a parking ticket."


Mader was also in his probationary year, and sop in most departments is that they cut loose potential problem officers sooner rather than later.
It's also SOP to pad out any termination which might have public repercussions as much as possible.

Neither he nor the same other two officers reported a death as suspicious which no one has found to be suspicious?

Really? That's a black mark?

This is coming from the same source, the police chief, who also contributed this;
Quote:
When he read stories a day after he got his termination letter about how Chief Alexander said in the June 8 press conference that all three officers were back at work and doing well, Mr. Mader was incensed.



“How can you say all the officers are doing well when you just terminated one yesterday?” Mr. Mader said in a recent interview. “I think he did that just to give the public a good view of the officers.”
Good question, I think. Maybe the police chief is being less than forthright about the dismissal as well.

Letting him go was preferable to putting the actions of the officer who did shoot the guy under greater scrutiny. And since he was still in his probationary year there would be no serious repercussions for letting him take the fall. He could be dismissed for no reason at all. That seems like the most obvious explanation to me.
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Old 19th September 2017, 05:57 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
According to a lawyer for the family, Scout held a multipurpose tool that had a knife among other tools. "'The knife wasn’t even open. That was the truth…that’s what Georgia Tech didn’t tell you,' Stewart said, adding that the officer was about 20 feet away when he fired a bullet into Schultz’s heart."

It may have been suicide by cop. Apparently Scout Schultz made the call to police.
Very strange that the muzzle flash appears about 10' away
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Old 19th September 2017, 06:10 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The point is that calling the police is a bad idea just because someone is emotionally disturbed. They are far too violent for it to be a reliable method of dealing with them.
Well that wasn't the reason the police were called.
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Old 19th September 2017, 06:49 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Because the police are doing a job in which they should expect to encounter these situations, and as such, are in a position to plan ahead. A civilian just going about their daily routine, who is then suddenly confronted by someone with a knife, cannot reasonably be expected to have knife proof vests, riot shield, tasers, beanbag shotguns, and the like, that cops have (or should have) available as part of their job. But when the police are responding to a call that clearly states that there's a person with a weapon, they go into the situation knowing that, and can be expected to plan a bit further ahead.

There are often times when cops have no warnings of impending violence, and so must resort to the one tool they have easily to hand, but this case didn't appear to be one of them.

And yes, this means that cops are often held to a higher standard than civilians. I don't see that as a problem.
You are so very right! Thank you
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Old 19th September 2017, 07:02 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
If the cop is a trigger-happy loon or happy he did the right thing, none of us are safe.
If the cop shot out of fear or in response to his training, he will be miserable for years.

Neither option is right.
I recently read, and will try to find, an article written about the guilt people deal with for a lifetime after accidentally killing someone. Mostly about car accident but also ex-leo or veterans. Most people never get over it.

We should remember we're all armchair quarterbacks here. Why is additional training always the first thing off the table? The police fear the public, the public fears the police. How do we break this cycle? Is it even possible?
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Old 19th September 2017, 07:43 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is incorrect. It means everything to the left of the bad event, on a left-to-right timeline.
Right, but it also assumes the Boom to be inevitable, even the focus of the timeline. If he got the help he needed to not be dealt the Boom, he wouldn't be left of something that didn't happen. Unless you think police are only about the Boom, and the name of the game is Stop the Cop from killing you.

Quote:
I also consider the entire episode starting with Scout's erratic behavior that got the police called in to be the boom.
I don't think police are called in to be the Boom. Really, really don't. They are called to enforce law, keep the peace and order and stuff. Not to be a bad event.

Quote:
That's the point at which, even had the police disarmed him without hurting him, bad consequences of one level or another were unavoidable.
Would restraining him alive and maybe holding him till family came to get care for him be a bad consequence?


Quote:
They did. One may argue that they should have done more, but it's not like t[hilite]hey showed up on scene, whipped out their guns and just killed him on sight.
That's true. They whipped out their guns, waited a couple minutes, then killed him.

Quote:
We don't see what the officer who fired was doing in the released video, but we do clearly see another officer retreat and put a barrier between himself and Scout, precisely to give more time to try to resolve the situation without using deadly force.
If I am reading this correctly, their attempts to resolve things were saying 'c'mon, man' and 'drop it'. You think there might be a tactic or two that should've been tried between that and the Boom?
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Old 19th September 2017, 08:30 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
... but we do clearly see another officer retreat and put a barrier between himself and Scout, precisely to give more time to try to resolve the situation without using deadly force.

Actually, that one cop is a good example of what could have been, if they'd had a taser available. He made good use of existing obstacles to put himself into a position where he could have used a taser, but, if the taser failed to control the suspect, he was protected enough from a lunging attack that the other cops could have saved him from being injured or killed.

I guess it's just too bad that US cops are So Special that they can't ever be expected to carry a taser to be used in just this exact situation, according to some people here.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:24 PM   #133
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Attack an armed person, expect a lethal result.

It's sad the person likely did this due to mental illness, but fact remains death is an expected outcome of attacking someone who is armed. If this had been a truck driver and he jumped in front of the truck I doubt anyone would be reacting the same way.
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Old 19th September 2017, 11:27 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Actually, that one cop is a good example of what could have been, if they'd had a taser available. He made good use of existing obstacles to put himself into a position where he could have used a taser, but, if the taser failed to control the suspect, he was protected enough from a lunging attack that the other cops could have saved him from being injured or killed.

I guess it's just too bad that US cops are So Special that they can't ever be expected to carry a taser to be used in just this exact situation, according to some people here.
Get in one street fight a year and you can probably walk away while using Queensbury rules, up this number and you will have to change tactics.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:11 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I've never seen reports of that. Do you have a cite?
I can´t find the reports I´ve come accross before, but a quick google shows several:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ists-home.html

https://nltimes.nl/2017/04/21/hague-...t-caught-video

http://www.redfm.com.au/news/news/fr...ng-b88499785z/
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:35 AM   #136
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Speaking as someone who has had to face down a knife armed opponent with just a baton myself, I can say that I'm happy that the colleagues normally show up with guns after a while. It's not a matter of just swatting the knife out of the person's hand with the baton - that's movie stuff. When you're in a flowing fight situation, you normally try to use batons to strike big targets, like arms and legs. When your opponent is armed with a knife, you are simply trying to avoid getting cut.

Shooting someone advancing towards you with a knife is SOP for police in liberal ol' Sweden as well. Of course, the shooting follows many attempts to verbally de-escalate.
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Old 20th September 2017, 01:36 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I can't believe you are asking this question after ten years on this forum. Every time a bloke winds up shot, justifiably or not, people ask this question and the answer is always the same.

For ****'s sake, you too?

Hasn't it been made amply clear that you can't reliably shoot someone in the limbs or shoot to "wound"? Even shooting at the center of mass, which is what they are trained to do and the most reliable way to hit someone, trained cops usually miss. Not to mention that, unlike in the movies, shooting someone in the shoulder or thigh can be very deadly as well.

Gee, it's like people forget all this stuff every time it's brought up.
The reason why people keep on bringing up shoot to stop is because they are the ones who want to look for an alternative to shoot to kill. For example;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41314562

"In late 2014 - shortly after the police shooting of Michael Brown sparked violent unrest in Ferguson, Missouri - Perf director Chuck Wexler was in Scotland for a leadership training programme.
Looking around him at a graduation ceremony, he was struck by the fact that none of the officers were carrying guns.
"What hit me was the fact that these officers deal with similar knife situations that we deal with. A knife in Glasgow is the same as a knife in downtown Washington DC, so why are they able to do it without shooting?"

This is going to come over as very rude to American police, but I don't care.

The policy of shoot to kill is disgusting. There are alternatives. There is an inward looking nature of American police who are think they are supreme and have nothing to learn from others.

The desire to keep shoot to kill as the prime way of dealing with threats, is indicative of the American police aggression that seeps throughout society, top to bottom. There are too many Americans who like to think they are tough guys, who want to be tougher than the rest and join the police to play out that desired tough guy role.
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Old 20th September 2017, 02:13 AM   #138
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I just found this

Annual fatal police shootings per million residents.

From http://theconversation.com/why-do-am...ean-cops-49696

Last edited by Abooga; 20th September 2017 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 20th September 2017, 03:19 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The reason why people keep on bringing up shoot to stop is because they are the ones who want to look for an alternative to shoot to kill. For example;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41314562

"In late 2014 - shortly after the police shooting of Michael Brown sparked violent unrest in Ferguson, Missouri - Perf director Chuck Wexler was in Scotland for a leadership training programme.
Looking around him at a graduation ceremony, he was struck by the fact that none of the officers were carrying guns.
"What hit me was the fact that these officers deal with similar knife situations that we deal with. A knife in Glasgow is the same as a knife in downtown Washington DC, so why are they able to do it without shooting?"

This is going to come over as very rude to American police, but I don't care.

The policy of shoot to kill is disgusting. There are alternatives. There is an inward looking nature of American police who are think they are supreme and have nothing to learn from others.

The desire to keep shoot to kill as the prime way of dealing with threats, is indicative of the American police aggression that seeps throughout society, top to bottom. There are too many Americans who like to think they are tough guys, who want to be tougher than the rest and join the police to play out that desired tough guy role.
I looked into one of the officers in that article and he does seem to be doing good.

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2...stop_poli.html

At least someone is trying.
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Old 20th September 2017, 03:21 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Attack an armed person, expect a lethal result.

It's sad the person likely did this due to mental illness, but fact remains death is an expected outcome of attacking someone who is armed. If this had been a truck driver and he jumped in front of the truck I doubt anyone would be reacting the same way.
Who was attacked?
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Old 20th September 2017, 04:13 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Who was attacked?
Don't you accept a person advancing towards officers in a threatening manner while armed with a knife and refusing to co-operate with clear instructions as an attack? If not, do you expect the police to wait until they're stabbed before responding?
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Old 20th September 2017, 04:21 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000

I just found this

Annual fatal police shootings per million residents.

From http://theconversation.com/why-do-am...ean-cops-49696
We have the freedom of self defense with firearms in the USA, along with a lot of firearms in public possession.

Most of those police shootings likely involved a suspect with a gun or knife, and were proper when taken in full context.

No doubt the police sometimes shoot when they don't need to, and that needs to be addressed. The question is how.

Making the police jumpy by threatening them is certainly not going to reduce their tendency to shoot first.
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Old 20th September 2017, 04:53 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
We have the freedom of self defense with firearms in the USA, along with a lot of firearms in public possession.

Most of those police shootings likely involved a suspect with a gun or knife, and were proper when taken in full context.

No doubt the police sometimes shoot when they don't need to, and that needs to be addressed. The question is how.

Making the police jumpy by threatening them is certainly not going to reduce their tendency to shoot first.
The proper way to kill the mentally ill is have them locked in a room with no water. This provides days of amusement for the police while getting rid of the undesirable element. You have to expect regular deaths from dehydration of those in police custody, it is certainly not a crime. See sheriff Arpaio and Clarke for how do run a jail properly. Certainly none of those deaths were remotely criminal.

These are model police officers who most cops want to emulate. Just hear the cheering for them.
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:08 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The proper way to kill the mentally ill is have them locked in a room with no water. This provides days of amusement for the police while getting rid of the undesirable element. You have to expect regular deaths from dehydration of those in police custody, it is certainly not a crime. See sheriff Arpaio and Clarke for how do run a jail properly. Certainly none of those deaths were remotely criminal.

These are model police officers who most cops want to emulate. Just hear the cheering for them.
Yes, you need to be a doctor to kill the mentally ill that way.

Seriously though, if you are coming towards me with what I perceive as a weapon, I don't care if you're mentally ill. I'm going to shoot you. Assuming I even know that you are mentally ill.
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:10 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, you need to be a doctor to kill the mentally ill that way.
A doctor would be far more likely to face legal consequences. Show me the doctors who murdered patients in that way with no consequence.
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:11 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
A doctor would be far more likely to face legal consequences. Show me the doctors who murdered patients in that way with no consequence.
It would help if you'd actually read my posts, but never mind.
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:15 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, you need to be a doctor to kill the mentally ill that way.
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It would help if you'd actually read my posts, but never mind.
The ideas are clear, republicans want the police to kill blacks and the mentally ill when in their custody. This is not only acceptable but laudable enough to earn cheers when they are not held to account for these deaths.

Death is the first and only response that is ever acceptable from the police.

If you wanted to keep things limited to this case the first line is totally irrelevant. It is just a way to get a dig in then pretend you are above all that.
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:15 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It would help if you'd actually read my posts, but never mind.
It would help a lot of people.
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:40 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Get in one street fight a year and you can probably walk away while using Queensbury rules, up this number and you will have to change tactics.

See, this right here is exactly what I meant by the litany of excuses.

Somehow a suggestion that one cop in a protected position try to use a non-lethal device as a first line of defense, with two other cops armed with pistols as backup, is now derided as "using Queensbury rules".

This will never get better so long as these attitudes persist in so many people.
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Old 20th September 2017, 05:43 AM   #150
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Yeah, I worry about the high rate of shooting deaths from the cops' point of view too. Even in open and shut obviously-no-other-choice cases, the shooter can suffer a lot of anguish. I can't imagine how much it must tear somebody up to have killed someone in an edge case, misunderstanding, etc. And in a situation like the op everyone goes home feeling like ****. And it just boggles me that it seems like it has to turn out that way so often. Like the country has collectively thrown its hands in the air and gone 'that's just how it is.' I figure I could never be a cop cause I'd rather risk injury or death than risk living the rest of my life with that guy's screams in my head.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:02 AM   #151
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I can't imagine any police force in the USA ever training it's officers to rush a suspect that is carrying a knife.

It's also hard to imagine any training to use a taser or pepper spray on a suspect that is advancing on you with a knife.

I have to say that I personally do not want police officers to risk being stabbed.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:09 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
See, this right here is exactly what I meant by the litany of excuses.

Somehow a suggestion that one cop in a protected position try to use a non-lethal device as a first line of defense, with two other cops armed with pistols as backup, is now derided as "using Queensbury rules".

This will never get better so long as these attitudes persist in so many people.
Again, I can only speak of how law enforcement operates in Sweden, but shooting a suspect is a last resort. It's not fun shooting a person (for a normal person), but in a high-stress situation everything reverts to basic principles you had crammed into your head during training, and that's when someone gets killed.

Stress has plays a much larger factor than one might think. Anecdote: There was a case in Sweden that played out as follows. A man was stopped in a car on a street which, as it turned out, was the street of his residence. He didn't have any identification, such as a drivers license, on him, but he informed the officers that he did have it in his apartment. The police followed him up. In his apartment was his brother - an illegal immigrant and wanted by authorities. The brother thought the police were there for him, so he barged out the apartment door wielding a knife. Instead of attacking the officers, he ran past them down the stairs, and was promptly shot in the back by one of the officers.

A trial followed. An expert in stress set up an experiment for the trial. He took 100 groups of cadets from the police academy and put them in the same situation as the officers in the story. 97 of them shot the assailant in the back. 2 had a firearms malfunction and couldn't fire. 1 looked in another direction and missed the knife.

The reason for this was the delay between the mind making the decision to fire and the time it took for his arms and hands to execute that decision. That was the time it took for the assailant to run past him and get the shot in his back.

In the situation at hand, if we discount stress I don't think Scout would have been shot. Stress, however, is an ever present factor.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:35 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Speaking as someone who has had to face down a knife armed opponent with just a baton myself, I can say that I'm happy that the colleagues normally show up with guns after a while.
How did that incident end? How badly were you cut? Was the suspect killed?

Quote:
It's not a matter of just swatting the knife out of the person's hand with the baton - that's movie stuff. When you're in a flowing fight situation, you normally try to use batons to strike big targets, like arms and legs. When your opponent is armed with a knife, you are simply trying to avoid getting cut.
It might depend on your level of training, and how much the department provides, as in what they see as necessary. A link above provides a well-known story about the Camden NJ USA police. Camden is one of the country's more violent cities. Really, really violent. LEOs are being trained to use not-shooting tactics, and they work. In martial arts, a baton (more commonly, a pair) are a very effective weapon against a blade, with enough practice.
A multi tool blade is usually three to four inches long, and you are about two feet out of range. When weighed against killing a suspect, I think it is the move to up the level of training with non-lethal weapons.

Quote:
Shooting someone advancing towards you with a knife is SOP for police in liberal ol' Sweden as well. Of course, the shooting follows many attempts to verbally de-escalate.
In the link with the Camden 5-0 above, they talked the guy down for abt 45 mniutes, while he was aggressive. Some officers had guns out, but at their sides. In the OP, I think they did not take any reasonable measures before shooting (saying 'c'mon, man' a few times is nothing).
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:45 AM   #154
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The news feeds this morning mentioned that the officers did not have tasers, and were not trained either in “de-escalation” techniques nor Crisis Intervention.

We (our department) do all that. Everyone goes through the crisis-intervention training (40 hours, with annual refreshers) and “Verbal Judo” has been a standard “continuing education” class at the academy for years.
As I said previously, we are equipped with all the tools, including the new 2-shot Taser.

We deal with “consumers” all the time. (“Consumers of mental-health services...The “polite” term for the demented)
For some reason, the university draws them like flies, and we have many students either arrive at school in some state of problem or who become that way.
We’ve had many suicide attempts over the years and several successes. Various crisis “meltdowns” and broken-relationship problems and kids unable to cope with the whole thing and even alumni who don’t “make it” and come back to the Alma Mater to hang out.

We just yesterday had a gentleman wander onto campus and who was inquiring at the Earth and Planetary Science department to see if we were controlling the weather....

I only recall one individual who went into full psychotic break while we were talking to him, and fortunately he didn’t become violent.... Just was talking back to the voices...

Mostly, these people can be handled with established techniques. But not always. Some of them are already not in “crisis” but well over the edge, deeply involved with their delusions or severely intent on suicide. Hard to deal with

Why the officers in this case were not better trained and equipped is anyone’s guess. This is evidently a state school. Money would be the normal consideration. Training and equipment costs money. Our school is very prosperous. We get what we ask for as long as we can justify it.
Not the case everywhere.
Final note. Just looking at the still photo that was posted earlier, I think it would have been very difficult for the officers to tell what the lad was holding. Section sticking out of his hand in the “icepick” grip was to the rear. Multi-tool? Handle of a “butterfly knife”, a closed automatic knife that could be instantly opened?
How long do you wait to find out?
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:47 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
How did that incident end? How badly were you cut? Was the suspect killed?
Which one of them?

I've been cut a couple of times. Other times I have been able to fend off the assailant until colleagues have shown up. I've never been apart of a confrontation where an assailant with a knife hasn't put it down when faced with a drawn firearm.


Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
It might depend on your level of training, and how much the department provides, as in what they see as necessary. A link above provides a well-known story about the Camden NJ USA police. Camden is one of the country's more violent cities. Really, really violent. LEOs are being trained to use not-shooting tactics, and they work. In martial arts, a baton (more commonly, a pair) are a very effective weapon against a blade, with enough practice.
A multi tool blade is usually three to four inches long, and you are about two feet out of range. When weighed against killing a suspect, I think it is the move to up the level of training with non-lethal weapons.
It depends on the situation. If a person with a knife won't put it down when faced with a drawn firearm (that's a non-lethal response), and don't respond to de-escalation, shooting the person could be the only appropriate response from law enforcement.

Please don't claim that we should start using martial arts. Anyone who does so clearly hasn't been in the situation we're discussing.


Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
In the link with the Camden 5-0 above, they talked the guy down for abt 45 mniutes, while he was aggressive. Some officers had guns out, but at their sides. In the OP, I think they did not take any reasonable measures before shooting (saying 'c'mon, man' a few times is nothing).
That's a good example of managing to de-escalate a situation. It's important to note that this doesn't always work.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:49 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
In the link with the Camden 5-0 above, they talked the guy down for abt 45 mniutes, while he was aggressive. Some officers had guns out, but at their sides. In the OP, I think they did not take any reasonable measures before shooting (saying 'c'mon, man' a few times is nothing).
But american police are men of action not talk, they wouldn't waste that much time to save some crazy perverts life. You have to view this from an american conservative point of view.
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:55 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
The news feeds this morning mentioned that the officers did not have tasers, and were not trained either in “de-escalation” techniques nor Crisis Intervention.

We (our department) do all that. Everyone goes through the crisis-intervention training (40 hours, with annual refreshers) and “Verbal Judo” has been a standard “continuing education” class at the academy for years.
As I said previously, we are equipped with all the tools, including the new 2-shot Taser.
I think what you describe is what most of us want from the professionals we entrust with our safety and our children's safety when we send them off to college.

Quote:
Why the officers in this case were not better trained and equipped is anyone’s guess. This is evidently a state school. Money would be the normal consideration. Training and equipment costs money.
I doubt it will be cost effective to have skimped on training and equipment after they pay out a massive settlement to this family. Your school shows that best practices are known and achievable and if followed may have provided a different result. If best practices were not followed as a cost saving measure I would expect a jury to come down in a very heavy way in favor of the family to teach the school that such costs savings are imaginary at best.
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Old 20th September 2017, 07:21 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
...Please don't claim that we should start using martial arts. Anyone who does so clearly hasn't been in the situation we're discussing.
I think you already use fighting arts, although maybe not in the formal Asian sense. And the situation being discussed includes whether non-lethal tactics were viable here, or if the kill-shot was the forgone conclusion for Scout. More training in baton work might certainly be an option.

Quote:
That's a good example of managing to de-escalate a situation. It's important to note that this doesn't always work.
Agreed, firing on an aggressive suspect is sometimes the justifiable last resort. I think what the discussion is here, at least in part, is whether it is fair to ask police to stick their necks out a little farther against someone like Scout, instead of shooting. Jobs entail risk; it has been noted that garbage collectors face a much higher casualty rate on the job (not trying to trivialize LEO risk here). Killing a suspect is weighty enough that having other viable methods has got to be an option. I don't think saying 'drop it' a few times while Scout slowly shuffles around with a small tool by his side is remotely enough.
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Old 20th September 2017, 07:26 AM   #159
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Radley Balko's framing of the questions surrounding police shootings

"If we really want to reduce fatal police shootings instead of merely adjudicating them, we need to train officers in tactics that subdue threats, reward those who resolve threats without violence, and discourage actions that create unnecessary confrontation, violence, and escalation. And when these shootings are investigated — be it by the DOJ, internal affairs departments, local prosecutors or an outside agencies — it’s time to start looking beyond whether or not the shooting was justified under the black letter of the law. It’s time to start asking whether the shooting was preventable — and if it was, whether the failure to prevent it was due to poor training, bad policies, or police officers acting in contravention of policies or training." Radley Balko at the WaPo.
EDT
See also this essay.
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Old 20th September 2017, 08:11 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Death is the first and only response that is ever acceptable from the police.
This is false. You know it's false. Do you believe that continually engaging in these gross exaggerations is making your side of the argument look reasonable?
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