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Old 20th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #161
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This is false. You know it's false. Do you believe that continually engaging in these gross exaggerations is making your side of the argument look reasonable?
When people cheer for the deaths of people in custody and revel in assaulting and torturing suspects, it is barely hyperbolic at all.

Once most cops seem to have an issue with the their colleges murdering people in custody, you don't constantly find out a cop who earned national fame is a nazi and so on we might be getting somewhere.

There do seem to be a few OK cops, but it is rather like the current pope seems to be and OK human being because he is being rated as a pope not as a caring human being. It sets the bar very low. When it is remarkable and noteworthy that a cop is bothered by his colleague murdering someone there is something seriously wrong wit that, that should be the normal and expected response.
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Old 20th September 2017, 08:26 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Don't you accept a person advancing towards officers in a threatening manner while armed with a knife and refusing to co-operate with clear instructions as an attack? If not, do you expect the police to wait until they're stabbed before responding?
In that video (which makes me want to throw up) no one advanced in a threatening manner. They walked slowly with a metal object in their hand.

The officers were doing the right thing at first. They kept themselves safe by having their weapons out and backing up to maintain distance. Then one of them just fired. There was no lunge or anything. No threats from Scout that I could make out.

If the officer was backed into a corner or there was a risk to civilians I might think differently but that doesn't seem to be what happened.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:07 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
In that video (which makes me want to throw up) no one advanced in a threatening manner. They walked slowly with a metal object in their hand.

The officers were doing the right thing at first. They kept themselves safe by having their weapons out and backing up to maintain distance. Then one of them just fired. There was no lunge or anything. No threats from Scout that I could make out.

If the officer was backed into a corner or there was a risk to civilians I might think differently but that doesn't seem to be what happened.
It seems to me that in a situation where the person is not an immediate threat, waiting them out may well be the best option. Sooner or later, sheer exhaustion is likely to make them give up. The cops can rotate fresh people in as necessary.
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Old 20th September 2017, 09:59 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
See, this right here is exactly what I meant by the litany of excuses.

Somehow a suggestion that one cop in a protected position try to use a non-lethal device as a first line of defense, with two other cops armed with pistols as backup, is now derided as "using Queensbury rules".

This will never get better so long as these attitudes persist in so many people.
It is not an excuse is a fact. It is why police are armed in the first place. One does not survive many fair fights with a dedicated attacker, it is why we attempt to make sure police when they have to fight, are equipped to do so.

It's basic logic, if it wasn't people would go to war with boxing gloves instead of firearms.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:03 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
In that video (which makes me want to throw up) no one advanced in a threatening manner. They walked slowly with a metal object in their hand.

The officers were doing the right thing at first. They kept themselves safe by having their weapons out and backing up to maintain distance. Then one of them just fired. There was no lunge or anything. No threats from Scout that I could make out.

If the officer was backed into a corner or there was a risk to civilians I might think differently but that doesn't seem to be what happened.
Easy to say when removed from the situation.

How often have you been attacked with a knife? Honest question, I find people who never have don't understand how quickly it makes you a member of the brown trousers club. It's not like in the movies where someone does that dramatic knife wiggle for 5 minutes, things go from safe to **** in an instant.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:06 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
It seems to me that in a situation where the person is not an immediate threat, waiting them out may well be the best option. Sooner or later, sheer exhaustion is likely to make them give up. The cops can rotate fresh people in as necessary.
Then the cops get blamed for not doing anything when the person hurts them self. "They couldn't have just ran in and stopped them? "

If you thing risking being stabbed every time someone has a break down should be part of their job, by all means become a cop.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:07 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Easy to say when removed from the situation.

How often have you been attacked with a knife? Honest question, I find people who never have don't understand how quickly it makes you a member of the brown trousers club. It's not like in the movies where someone does that dramatic knife wiggle for 5 minutes, things go from safe to **** in an instant.
Someone jabbed a knife in my face once. Very close to my eye. I wouldn't call it an attack. It was very threatening and stressful though.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:08 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When people cheer for the deaths of people in custody and revel in assaulting and torturing suspects, it is barely hyperbolic at all.

Once most cops seem to have an issue with the their colleges murdering people in custody, you don't constantly find out a cop who earned national fame is a nazi and so on we might be getting somewhere.

There do seem to be a few OK cops, but it is rather like the current pope seems to be and OK human being because he is being rated as a pope not as a caring human being. It sets the bar very low. When it is remarkable and noteworthy that a cop is bothered by his colleague murdering someone there is something seriously wrong wit that, that should be the normal and expected response.
The edge is so sharp, I just can't stand it. My views have been completely changed due to sheer pluck, thank you for just being so edgy.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:10 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Then the cops get blamed for not doing anything when the person hurts them self. "They couldn't have just ran in and stopped them? "

If you thing risking being stabbed every time someone has a break down should be part of their job, by all means become a cop.
To prevent people from hurting themselves people would rather they be shot? Who believes that?
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:11 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
Someone jabbed a knife in my face once. Very close to my eye. I wouldn't call it an attack. It was very threatening and stressful though.
So no then?

Would you not then say, with little to no experience in the situation your opinion is not as fact based as those that have experience or training?

Btw if you are confused if it was an attack by a dedicated attacker, the fact you don't have a large piece of your face missing tells you it was not.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:13 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
To prevent people from hurting themselves people would rather they be shot? Who believes that?
Many?

Police are about as popular a group to **** on as furries and juggalos lately.

It's very easy to be an armchair quarterback when you have no experience.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:27 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So no then?

Would you not then say, with little to no experience in the situation your opinion is not as fact based as those that have experience or training?

Btw if you are confused if it was an attack by a dedicated attacker, the fact you don't have a large piece of your face missing tells you it was not.
Even less happened here. There was no jabbing or lunging or even a blade. There was no "dedicated attacker".

Nice goalpost shift too. You asked if I had been attacked with a knife and then dismissed someone jabbing a knife at my eye because they weren't successful and therefore "dedicated".
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:34 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Many?

Police are about as popular a group to **** on as furries and juggalos lately.

It's very easy to be an armchair quarterback when you have no experience.
It is almost as if they get a bad reputation for how they constantly defend their worst actors.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:37 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Many?

Police are about as popular a group to **** on as furries and juggalos lately.
Ugh, I know, it's not like they keep killing people or anything.
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Old 20th September 2017, 10:56 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
When I lived in the Netherlands I often read newspaper reports of police having shot someone in the legs. The implication seemed to be that this was done deliberately to immobilise them. It always mystified me. Can any cloggy members perhaps clarify?
From the site of the Dutch police:
Quote:
Pas op het laatste moment pakt de agent zijn vuurwapen. Hij kan een waarschuwingsschot lossen. Wanneer er sprake is van noodweer heeft een agent vaak geen tijd om te de-escaleren. Hij is dan bevoegd om gelijk te schieten. Een agent mag ook schieten om iemand aan te houden die van een ernstig feit verdacht wordt. In die situaties heeft de agent geleerd op de benen van de verdachte te richten. Wanneer er sprake van noodweer is, mag de agent op de romp van de verdachte schieten.
My translation:
Quote:
Only in the last moment, the officer takes his gun. He can issue a warning shot. In case of emergency, an officer often has no time to de-escalate; he then may shoot immediately. An officer is also allowed to shoot to arrest a suspect of a serious crime. In those situations, the officer has learned to aim for the legs. In case of an emergency, the officer may aim for the torso.
This "only aim for the torso" seems to be a uniquely American phenomenon.

I'm confused what was exactly the emergency in this situation. On the video we see the entrance of a car park, and except for Scout and the three officers no-one in sight. And Scout didn't exactly run towards them but only slowly moved, so they could have played this game for a long time without shooting.

ETA: my condolences to Cleon for losing his friend.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:08 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Don't you accept a person advancing towards officers in a threatening manner while armed with a knife and refusing to co-operate with clear instructions as an attack? If not, do you expect the police to wait until they're stabbed before responding?
Policemen can't walk backwards?
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:23 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Right, but it also assumes the Boom to be inevitable, even the focus of the timeline.
No. The whole point of acting to the left of boom is to prevent the boom.

The terminology comes from the military, where the best way to combat IED's is to catch the bombers before they even put the IED's in place. That's where you want to act: left of boom. To prevent the boom.

Quote:
If he got the help he needed to not be dealt the Boom, he wouldn't be left of something that didn't happen.
That's needless over-analysis of a colloquialism.

Quote:
I don't think police are called in to be the Boom.
Not what I'm saying. I'm saying the boom was him reaching that mental state. At that point, the police can only deal with the boom, they can't prevent it.

Quote:
Would restraining him alive and maybe holding him till family came to get care for him be a bad consequence?
Yes. Much less bad than getting killed, but worse than getting help before that point.

ETA: and at that point, I doubt the police would just have his family pick him up. They'd probably have him put in a psych ward for 48 hours.

Quote:
If I am reading this correctly, their attempts to resolve things were saying 'c'mon, man' and 'drop it'. You think there might be a tactic or two that should've been tried between that and the Boom?
We're missing crucial information to make a full determination of that. And even supposing there was, there's still a big difference between not doing anything (the prior claim made) and not doing the best thing.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:29 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'm confused what was exactly the emergency in this situation. On the video we see the entrance of a car park, and except for Scout and the three officers no-one in sight. And Scout didn't exactly run towards them but only slowly moved, so they could have played this game for a long time without shooting.
We don't know how long this was already going on for. And we don't know the circumstances of the officer who fired, or whether anyone else was nearby off camera. We are missing critical information. Maybe they could have "played this game" for a long time, but we don't actually know that they could.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:30 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Policemen can't walk backwards?
Depends on their position and environment.

We can't see either for the officer who fired.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:39 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Scout was not attacking the cops and was walking slowly with a knife in his hand.

This same stupid argument comes up again and again in this forum. Face it, cops kill people needlessly. Surely in some cases there are or should be other options for the police. No one is suggesting kid gloves when cops truly are in danger from an armed aggressive suspect.

But why does being mentally ill or out of it mean cops should kill the person because they see every suspect as a dangerous criminal? We don't shoot mentally ill people who are out of control in the hospital.
I agree with you. Our police need more non-lethal options.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:42 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Don't you accept a person advancing towards officers in a threatening manner while armed with a knife and refusing to co-operate with clear instructions as an attack? If not, do you expect the police to wait until they're stabbed before responding?
I don't think what happened was an attack. An attack is if he then raises the knife and heads directly at the police officer.

The police officer either got bored or could not be bothered to persist with trying to talk the victim down, or the tough guy culture meant he feels he loses face if he has to keep backing away. The US police do that because it is the US culture to shoot far sooner and at way less of an actual threat than anywhere else.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:50 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
The news feeds this morning mentioned that the officers did not have tasers, and were not trained either in “de-escalation” techniques nor Crisis Intervention.

We (our department) do all that. ....
That is the problem and the solution is all police have to be trained to a minimum standard which includes such techniques.

The UK has three police colleges for Scotland, England & Wales and NI (the legal systems and jurisdiction is different for each one, or else they would be one for the whole country). They ensure a standard of training that is clearly far higher than many of the police forces in the USA.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:51 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Policemen can't walk backwards?
They can make a lot of tactical mistakes, the goal is to not make them, and by doing so survive.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:52 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Ugh, I know, it's not like they keep killing people or anything.
Name me any group that doesn't.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:54 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't think what happened was an attack. An attack is if he then raises the knife and heads directly at the police officer.

The police officer either got bored or could not be bothered to persist with trying to talk the victim down, or the tough guy culture meant he feels he loses face if he has to keep backing away. The US police do that because it is the US culture to shoot far sooner and at way less of an actual threat than anywhere else.
Or alternate version.

A mentally disturbed person brought a knife to a gun fight, wanted to die and succeeded.

But that would be mean and as we all know mean means not truthful.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:55 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
They can make a lot of tactical mistakes, the goal is to not make them, and by doing so survive.

Walking backwards, away from someone holding a knife is a tactical mistake?

EDIT:
Did you read the article mentioned here:

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
I looked into one of the officers in that article and he does seem to be doing good.

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2...stop_poli.html

At least someone is trying.


There's a whole group of US policemen keeping distance from a knife wielder, prepared to act but not doing so and, eventually, the fellow gave up the knife and was arrested.

These officers didn't make a tactical mistake. They employed a successful tactic. No doubt prepared to act more forcefully if the situation demanded it.


The false dichotomy is 'shoot or be in danger'. There are, very, very often, other options.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:57 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is the problem and the solution is all police have to be trained to a minimum standard which includes such techniques.

The UK has three police colleges for Scotland, England & Wales and NI (the legal systems and jurisdiction is different for each one, or else they would be one for the whole country). They ensure a standard of training that is clearly far higher than many of the police forces in the USA.
And what is the population of Scotland?

It is much easier to keep the peace with less people.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:00 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Walking backwards, away from someone holding a knife is a tactical mistake?
You tell me, you suggested it, I assumed you looked into combat mechanics before hand to give yourself an informed opinion.

You did do that. ..didn't you? Otherwise you would just be giving suggestions with no basis in reality.

(Que stock combat quote from the first page of Google in...)
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:01 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
They can make a lot of tactical mistakes, the goal is to not make them, and by doing so survive.
And if you kill someone who cares?
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:05 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Walking backwards, away from someone holding a knife is a tactical mistake?

EDIT:
Did you read the article mentioned here:





There's a whole group of US policemen keeping distance from a knife wielder, prepared to act but not doing so and, eventually, the fellow gave up the knife and was arrested.

These officers didn't make a tactical mistake. They employed a successful tactic. No doubt prepared to act more forcefully if the situation demanded it.


The false dichotomy is 'shoot or be in danger'. There are, very, very often, other options.
So in your opinion then, every situation can be handled in the same way?

I'm really guessing you didn't look into things much before posting.

That would be like if a six foot 230 pound man said to me "why couldn't you just pin your mugger till the police got there. " different situations with different people play out differently.

Jesus man "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" is a saying for a reason. You are dangerous enough to be a threat but still likely to lose.

Add in this person instigating the fight, and it's sad but acceptable to me. Personally is like to think I'd hold out a bit longer than he would have, but I'm kinda known for taking stupid risks on the I'd occasions when violence happens. If I took my attitude to being a cop I'd be dead or fired.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:06 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Name me any group that doesn't.
The thing is that like with the catholic priests it isn't that the police offend in this way that is the problem to most people. It is that the institution backs them and protects them from justice. It is that they get away with these crimes and face no consequence.

So what other group can kill someone with so much impunity as the police? What group can be known to kill someone who was obeying the law and not threatening them and have it ruled fine? How often can they kill people by denying them water and face no legal consequence?
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And if you kill someone who cares?
If someone was coming at me with what I thought was a knife I'd kill them if I was armed. If I we're to judge a cop differently is be both a hypocrite and an *******.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:09 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The thing is that like with the catholic priests it isn't that the police offend in this way that is the problem to most people. It is that the institution backs them and protects them from justice. It is that they get away with these crimes and face no consequence.

So what other group can kill someone with so much impunity as the police? What group can be known to kill someone who was obeying the law and not threatening them and have it ruled fine? How often can they kill people by denying them water and face no legal consequence?
Look up unsolved murders, take your pick as to what group is getting away with more than the cops.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If someone was coming at me with what I thought was a knife I'd kill them if I was armed. If I we're to judge a cop differently is be both a hypocrite and an *******.
Who cares about that, the cops can kill someone and be right to do so just for having a concealed carry license. I am sure you would also kill anyone who let you know they had a firearm and concealed carry license. That is terrifying after all.

Up next we are all about shooting people because you feel threatened by their open carry.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:11 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Look up unsolved murders, take your pick as to what group is getting away with more than the cops.
How about look at conviction rates for murders where we know who did it. Clearly the police get away with murder all the time. As is their right apparently. If they kill someone in police custody it is never a big deal, certainly not something that should have legal or professional consequences.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:18 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We don't know how long this was already going on for. And we don't know the circumstances of the officer who fired, or whether anyone else was nearby off camera. We are missing critical information. Maybe they could have "played this game" for a long time, but we don't actually know that they could.
I have no reason to assume the clip doesn't start at the beginning of the confrontation. There's nothing indicating that the rest of the surrounding of this parking garage isn't the same as what's seen in the clip. And as others noted above, the police can even rotate officers in and out of such a confrontation, or bring him someone who is trained in de-escalating a situation with a disturbed individual. Frankly, I cannot see an immediate threat in the way Scout is behaving. He only slowly walks towards the cops and the "weapon" in his hand is in no way pointed at them. But I guess, this is down to me applying European standards of an immediate threat and not the American standard of a reasonable threat.

Some have suggested police should be paid more, but I don't see how American cops are underpaid. The starting salary varies between $26k and $50k depending on department according to this site. In Seattle, it's even $70k.

By comparison, British cops get a starting salary between £19k and £23k (source), Dutch cops get €1,800/month (source).
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:24 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Or alternate version.

A mentally disturbed person brought a knife to a gun fight, wanted to die and succeeded.

But that would be mean and as we all know mean means not truthful.
There was no gun fight. There was no fight.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And what is the population of Scotland?

It is much easier to keep the peace with less people.
Really? America is too big to organize a piss-up in a brewery? We already had that argument multiple times in the healthcare discussion a couple of years ago.

When your population is twice as large as country X, simply employ twice as many police officers as country X. It's not like the USA has all those people living in the same area. On the contrary, outside the Central Belt Scotland is more scarcely populated than the USA on average, while OTOH Glasgow is probably more densely populated than any American city.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And what is the population of Scotland?

It is much easier to keep the peace with less people.
The population is about the same as Colorado. The solution is to get all the police officers in Colorado to be trained to the same standard as the police in Scotland.

It is much easier to keep the peace with well trained, professional, calm, firm and fair policing.

The tough guy, shoot it if it moves, give a man a hammer attitude does not work. The proof for that is despite the exceptionally high instance of police shootings in the USA, many Americans will still confront and be violent towards the police.
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Old 20th September 2017, 12:26 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So in your opinion then, every situation can be handled in the same way?

I'm really guessing you didn't look into things much before posting.

That would be like if a six foot 230 pound man said to me "why couldn't you just pin your mugger till the police got there. " different situations with different people play out differently.

Jesus man "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" is a saying for a reason. You are dangerous enough to be a threat but still likely to lose.

Add in this person instigating the fight, and it's sad but acceptable to me. Personally is like to think I'd hold out a bit longer than he would have, but I'm kinda known for taking stupid risks on the I'd occasions when violence happens. If I took my attitude to being a cop I'd be dead or fired.
That isn't what the article says. It points out that shootings are somethimes the only option. But they shouldn't be the first option. You should try reading it.
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