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Old 21st September 2017, 12:25 PM   #281
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I need some money for a new recording room I want to build at my school. How about we bet, say 3000 dollars. I get a grease "knife" and you get a real baseball bat. If I can grease you in 30 seconds, I win. I'm old, fat and slow, but I'm willing to take the bet. Could be a funny Jref challenge video or something. We really as a forum should do more stuff like this, not enough non political output lately


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I'd toss money on you. People don't seem to understand how knives work.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:38 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You left out the details of the call to the police. They are critical. And I think it's so unlikely that he was having a psychotic break as to be unworth considering.
Are psychotic breaks the only state of mental illness you would give a pass to?


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The actions that caused the harm were intentional. And even if not a specifically desired outcome (though I suspect it was), he was at least indifferent to that harm.
Right, he did not consider all the possible logical ramifications of his actions. On that we all agree. I'm not mental health professional, but that seems to be a symptom of most mental illness.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:44 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I would bet a closed Leatherman tool, would be the equivalent of someone coming at a cop with brass knuckles or a blackjack.

Those tools are heavy and are probably deadly without the knife extended.
Holding something in your hand will increase the amount of damage you can do with your hand, but it isn't the equivilent of brass knuckles, which go around the fingers protecting them from also being damaged by the blow and may also be spiked, or a blackjack which extends beyond the hand.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:46 PM   #284
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Are psychotic breaks the only state of mental illness you would give a pass to?
Severe schizophrenia might similarly remove complicity. But most cases of mental illness don't relieve someone of any moral responsibility for their actions.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:51 PM   #285
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We had a guy (not when I was on shift) who tried suicide by cop with a knife. He was profoundly disappointed when we used pepper spray on him. What was the sense of urgency here where they had to shoot this person?

I'm agnostic about race in public/police interactions. However, there is a huge gulf in between the threats officers face and those they are trained for. We seem to be training officers to respond to a threat environment that simply does not exist.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:56 PM   #286
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Severe schizophrenia might similarly remove complicity. But most cases of mental illness don't relieve someone of any moral responsibility for their actions.
I wasn't asking about removing moral responsibility, I was asking whether they could expect sympathy from you. Could their decision be considered more a symptom of their disease than a knowing choice, malice aforethought.

I don't know Scout's mental health records, but I know mentally ill people who have made monumentally bad decisions. They are responsible for those decisions even if I can clearly see that the decisions were a direct result of their disease. That is to say, the consequences are theirs, but I never felt any malice in their choice. To them, they had no choice.

I think that is a distinction worth keeping in mind.
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Old 21st September 2017, 12:58 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
We had a guy (not when I was on shift) who tried suicide by cop with a knife. He was profoundly disappointed when we used pepper spray on him. What was the sense of urgency here where they had to shoot this person?

I'm agnostic about race in public/police interactions. However, there is a huge gulf in between the threats officers face and those they are trained for. We seem to be training officers to respond to a threat environment that simply does not exist.
I know a company that trains police and private security. They are comprised wholly of veterans who have seen combat experience. This seems completely ass backwards to me.
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Old 21st September 2017, 01:09 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You could not find a single case of an officer being fired for shooting an unarmed black man? Is that what you are saying?
I said black man holding something. not unarmed.
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Old 21st September 2017, 07:40 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And that is what court is for. No Court on earth would convict a civilian if a mentally ill person attempted to harm them and they protected themselves.
No one said they would. Although you are probably wrong. There are always mitigating circumstances where the court could find that you had, say, a duty to retreat. Of course, not the OP subject either. Schultz was not attempting to harm anyone that we have evidence of (except himself).

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The law isn't "if you are mentally ill you don't have to follow the law.
No one said it was. They have to follow the law, or be restrained or whatever, but the argument is whether they know right from wrong, or if they are imprisoned versus receive care.
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Old 21st September 2017, 08:25 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I need some money for a new recording room I want to build at my school. How about we bet, say 3000 dollars. I get a grease "knife" and you get a real baseball bat. If I can grease you in 30 seconds, I win.
Intriguing, yet adorable on a few levels. First, are you under the impression that inside 30 secs you would not be hit with the bat? You're indestructible, I take it? $3K wouldn't cover the costs of the first broken arm, much less your skull on the second hit (ever see a watermelon dropped on the sidewalk?) Or in your proposal did it not occur to you that broken bones, whether you got a grease stain in or not, were a likely virtually certain outcome? I'd take that bet, but I can't imagine enforceable wording on your liability release. You think you would just waltz through a strike while you were out of your range, but in mine? You want to think this through and get back? I'll be over here.

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I'm old, fat and slow, but I'm willing to take the bet. Could be a funny Jref challenge video or something. We really as a forum should do more stuff like this, not enough non political output lately


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Ya know, some of us have been doing such things for years. Decades. Training against realistic attack by dedicated attackers in martial arts. We actually practice these things both in and (much more realistically) out of the hall. Might be a novel idea to you, but not to millions of others.
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:06 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Intriguing, yet adorable on a few levels. First, are you under the impression that inside 30 secs you would not be hit with the bat?


And while we're at it, a baseball bat would be a much slower weapon than a police baton. Physics exists, ya know!
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Old 21st September 2017, 09:10 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And while we're at it, a baseball bat would be a much slower weapon than a police baton. Physics exists, ya know!
Absolutely. There is a reason the baton has its dimensions. It's a short range weapon for close quarters, fast and maneuverable.
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Old 21st September 2017, 10:01 PM   #293
pipelineaudio
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Absolutely. There is a reason the baton has its dimensions. It's a short range weapon for close quarters, fast and maneuverable.


Yeah, but the batons HURT! Like a very lot!!! The bat I can take. I guess we could do a model mugging suit thing. Anything for science!

In all seriousness I'm not really that worried about the bat, the skatepark does worse to me kind of regularly. I grew up in an area where the baseball bat was an intimate form of social interaction and figure I can take 30 seconds of it voluntarily. I risk breaking my bones daily for free, makes a lot more sense to do it for money! I really do t think it will come to that. I predict, and I think that other posters in older threads have shown evidence to the idea that that bat will likely get one poke or swing before the knife would leave a grease trail. I can't remember exact details, but the bat usually wins and the knife usually causes some severe damage.

Even if we did it a safer way, this would still be fun and informative and I bet we could crowd fund it.


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Old 21st September 2017, 10:57 PM   #294
Thermal
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Yeah, but the batons HURT! Like a very lot!!! The bat I can take. I guess we could do a model mugging suit thing. Anything for science!

In all seriousness I'm not really that worried about the bat, the skatepark does worse to me kind of regularly. I grew up in an area where the baseball bat was an intimate form of social interaction and figure I can take 30 seconds of it voluntarily. I risk breaking my bones daily for free, makes a lot more sense to do it for money! I really do t think it will come to that. I predict, and I think that other posters in older threads have shown evidence to the idea that that bat will likely get one poke or swing before the knife would leave a grease trail. I can't remember exact details, but the bat usually wins and the knife usually causes some severe damage.

Even if we did it a safer way, this would still be fun and informative and I bet we could crowd fund it.


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I'm always ready to talk money!

You're right about a knife in close quarters, if someone knows what they are doing. Lotsa damage in a little time with little movement. The bat would have a lot to do with luck, as in hitting meat versus hitting joints when things are moving fast. Most martial arts teach some kind of empty-handed knife disarming techniques. Flipping suicide, if you ask me, but there may be times they work, especially if the attacker doesn't know how to use a blade.

We have always experimented with 'what weapon works best' (short of firearms), usually with foam covered dummy weapons. My personal fave is two sticks (escrima). Versatile as all hell, and with practice you can generate a ton of speed for multiple target attacks.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:23 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I need some money for a new recording room I want to build at my school. How about we bet, say 3000 dollars. I get a grease "knife" and you get a real baseball bat. If I can grease you in 30 seconds, I win. I'm old, fat and slow, but I'm willing to take the bet. Could be a funny Jref challenge video or something. We really as a forum should do more stuff like this, not enough non political output lately


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20 years ago, I'd take that bet, provided, on my side, there's two of us.
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Old 1st October 2017, 08:08 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
It is very simple to armchair quarterback these situations, especially when one has no experience. While I'd agree that a folded pocket tool isn't much of a threat multiplier, a blade of any size can be lethal.
Kershaws are great at that in proper hands.
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Old 6th October 2017, 11:31 AM   #297
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I've always thought a hard wood staff/walking stick would be the best non-firearm to carry. About as long as shoulder height.

The USMC used to train with "pugil sticks". Looked like lots of fun.
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Old 6th October 2017, 05:07 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I've always thought a hard wood staff/walking stick would be the best non-firearm to carry. About as long as shoulder height.

The USMC used to train with "pugil sticks". Looked like lots of fun.
For me, the ideal length would be just above the hip. About as long as... well... a sword. I find shorter staffs to be a little trickier to defend with. 6' is a good length for a staff, but slightly longer is even better.
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