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Tags Catalonia incidents , Catalonia issues , independence movements , separatist movements , Spain incidents , Spain issues , Spain politics

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Old 2nd October 2017, 12:53 AM   #81
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Whilst I think the response of the Spanish authorities were poor. I think it would be wrong to argue the present referendum gave a democratic legitimacy to Catalan independence. This was not a free and fair vote. (It matters little whose fault this was).

The best outcome is if this could be used to move to a proper referendum.
I agree, but only after those who have broken law in pushing such a referendum through get punished. It was clear they wanted the Spanish police to supress the referendum, it was clear the referendum would give them no democratic mandate and they declared they would announce independence within 48 hours of the results, if it was in their favor - regardless of the problems this would cause to their constituencies and the continent as a whole. This is not democracy any more than the Spanish police response is.

I think Madrid needs to rework their strategy on how to keep Spain together. It's not so much that Catalonia deserves a free and fair referendum as it is the only way it will keep the passions subdued for another generation. Granted this is but buying more time, the precendens it creates will ensure the state will disintegrate at a certain point in the future. But perhaps another generation or two is all it is needed, perhaps in 30-40 years or later when the vote goes in favor the EU integration will be so advanced that breaking Spain apart will be as disruptive as making two communies/municipalities out of one.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 01:21 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
With 42% participation? None. Check participation in those two referendums, both had participation of well over 90%, with over 90% of votes being in favor. 90% of 42% is barely over 1/3 of the electorate, those two both had almost 90% of the entire electorate in favor.

The results in Catalonia are in line with polls. Most of those who want an independent Catalonia voted, most of those who don't stayed at home, since it was an illegal venture. Madrid would be well advised to agree to a referendum and defeat the separatists at the polls. That may be the best course of action if Catalonia was their only issue.

The only problem is that would likely result in more demands for more referendums, for example in Basque country. They would probably already do so if it was just Catalonia. The picture is a tad more complex than most analysis imagine.

McHrozni
That utterly invalidates Spain's actions as regards Catalonia. We need to brutalise the Catalans because otherwise the Valencians and the Basques and the Galicians may get uppity ideas too. So all the smaller states may want to dissolve union with Castile, and only displays of thuggery by the heirs of the Phalange will keep them in order. If you are right, and that is what Madrid is thinking, it's not the Catalan separatists who are criminally inclined.
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another ...
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Old 2nd October 2017, 01:43 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I agree, but only after those who have broken law in pushing such a referendum through get punished.
It was the execution of the signatories of the 1916 Proclamation that turned the populace against the UK in Ireland. And their offence was not to hold a peaceful Referendum, but to launch a bloody uprising.

If Madrid punishes the Generalitat for conducting a peaceful democratic enterprise, following the Spanish police's own recent brutality in Barcelona, that will be a gift to the separatists.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 01:49 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It was the execution of the signatories of the 1916 Proclamation that turned the populace against the UK in Ireland. And their offence was not to hold a peaceful Referendum, but to launch a bloody uprising.

If Madrid punishes the Generalitat for conducting a peaceful democratic enterprise, following the Spanish police's own recent brutality in Barcelona, that will be a gift to the separatists.
Well then we have an inpasse, don't we?

As others pointed out, the Catalonian authorities openly and with the full knowledge of illegality of their actions violated the constitution of the country. They can not continue to remain a credible party to the deal. Of course something similar may be said for the Spanish police, where the parties responsible for the violence must also be held accountable at the highest echelons of power. I certainly hope for the sake of Spain this is done as quickly as possible, the investigation needs to be launched today.

After that is said and done they should come for Catalonian leaders who pursued a clearly illegal referendum.

And after that, Spain should announce it would hold a referendum on the future of Catalonia, but with proper democratic credentials and with plenty of time to campaign for one or the other. This would include debates which would see the proponents of indenpendance explain how will the newly indepndendent country operate, how will it deal with the new currency it would have to print, how it would deal with the debt and the fact it would be torn out of the EU.

I'd expect the voters to break 2:1 in favor of remaining in Spain, but even a small victory for Cataremain would do and the issue would be dead for a generation or so.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 01:54 AM   #85
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I am reminded these days of that twisted derivation of tolerance and forgiveness known as the Spanish Inquisition. Same sort of logic one gets from Castile vis-a-vis democracy.

The constitution is barely legitimate, for starters. When the choice is "say 'Yes' or I'll take it you want another 40-year Catholic fascist dictatorship," people will say "Yes" to anything short of another round of Franco.

Let's recall Franco's treason, motivated in large part by the growing independence of two historical nations within Spain's nation-state under the Republic. In that light, examine the Spanish constitution approved under duress: it restores the monarchy (bye-bye, republic) and specifically prohibits regional referendums, a clear fix.

Or let's examine the oft-repeated claim that Catalonia, a militarily conquered people, "belongs to" Spain. As in English, that verb allows two interpretations. One, the normal one, would also admit "Spain belongs to Europe," speaking of geography. The other definition denotes ownership. There can only be ownership if the State, or Crown in this case, owns the land and the people's will is subordinate to that regal right. Let's recognize this as what it is: cheap backdooring of absolutism using loose language.

This screaming champion of "democracy" one gets on the main news channels, in the form of a Mariano Rajoy claiming that the oppression of a permanent ethnic minority is perfect democratic business as usual, plays well on cursory examination, but falls crashing through its gossamer rationale with merely minor due diligence. However, given the global situation of chaos ushered in by the likes of Brexit and Trump, Catalan independence is being read in the wrong context.

Or take the US War of Secession. Any difference? On a cursory level, perhaps not. Upon examination, polar opposites. The Civil War was based on a claim of secession based on the violation of a democratic norm, i.e., to continue to twist democracy into its opposite, a machine of systematic oppression to deny a minority its rights. Trash talk, and dirty logic. The Catalan independence movement is an effort to secure the rights of a minority who cannot find sufficient protection for those rights in courts and institutions dominated by a prejudiced majority.

Anecdotally, some common language used by Castilians:
- On hearing Catalan: "Speak to me in Christian."
- On asserting the truth of any idea: "As God ordains."
- On explaining Catalan economic prowess: "All based on those textile mills the King allowed the poor bastards (in the 19th century)."
- On referring to Catalans: Cata-*****, Cata-pitufos.

These are people highly offended by the majority of Catalonia rejecting animal torture (bull-fights), something Castilians prize as, ahem, "cultural heritage."

Nah, nah. Skip the Castilian baloney posturing, as "democratic" and "free" as goose-stepping Trumpian Republicanism in the US. The Catalan independence movement is all about modernity escaping obscurantism and trogloditic mono-culturalism, the same challenge facing the US today.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:05 AM   #86
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Or let's examine the oft-repeated claim that Catalonia, a militarily conquered people, "belongs to" Spain.
This is nonesense.

Catalonia was a major part of the kingdom of Aragon, which formed, alongside kingdoms of Castillie, Leon and Asturias, the kingdom of Spain. It was never conquered by Spain, Spain didn't even exist when the union was created. It doesn't belong to Spain any more than Castillie does.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:07 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Well then we have an inpasse, don't we?

As others pointed out, the Catalonian authorities openly and with the full knowledge of illegality of their actions violated the constitution of the country. They can not continue to remain a credible party to the deal. Of course something similar may be said for the Spanish police, where the parties responsible for the violence must also be held accountable at the highest echelons of power. I certainly hope for the sake of Spain this is done as quickly as possible, the investigation needs to be launched today.

After that is said and done they should come for Catalonian leaders who pursued a clearly illegal referendum.

And after that, Spain should announce it would hold a referendum on the future of Catalonia, but with proper democratic credentials
So there is to be a referendum, but the Catalan authorities are to have no part in it because they can't remain a credible party to the deal.

If this referendum was illegal, why would a referendum organised by Madrid be legal? I thought the problem was that the Constitution precluded any dissolution of the unified Spanish state, therefore no referendum to that end could be lawfully valid. By contrast, are you saying, like Nixon: "If the President does it, it must be legal"?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:42 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So there is to be a referendum, but the Catalan authorities are to have no part in it because they can't remain a credible party to the deal.

If this referendum was illegal, why would a referendum organised by Madrid be legal? I thought the problem was that the Constitution precluded any dissolution of the unified Spanish state, therefore no referendum to that end could be lawfully valid. By contrast, are you saying, like Nixon: "If the President does it, it must be legal"?
Because that referendum would be preceded by an alteration of the constitution which would allow secession, under certain circumstances. A referendum would be a part of the requirements - but not with 50% plus one vote. At least a 60% majority with at least 60% of population attending the referendum, something like that.

Furthermore it would need to spell what happens after the secession, how is the national debt divided - richer regions end up with a greater proportion, the part that is seceding also gets saddled with extra national debt - and so on, so secession is technically possible, but it would benefit the rest of the country more than it would the part that seceded.

I did mention Madrid needs to rethink and reformulate their strategy to keep the country together, didn't I? Well, the above is one way to do it. This is the model EU uses to prevent countries from leaving on a whim, with only a modification that would put a potato in the tailpipe of the only exception thus far.

If Catalonia wishes to secede under the conditions I outlined above, Spain should just let it go. There is no point in trying to maintain a union which is opposed despite the obvious downsides such a secession would bring. If, however, the secession is just a whimsical idea of a populist to maintain power in a corrupt way and his promises have no basis in reality - as is the case here - then it really needs to be examined in much more detail.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:46 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is nonesense.

Catalonia was a major part of the kingdom of Aragon, which formed, alongside kingdoms of Castillie, Leon and Asturias, the kingdom of Spain. It was never conquered by Spain, Spain didn't even exist when the union was created. It doesn't belong to Spain any more than Castillie does.

McHrozni
It existed when the independence of Aragon, and Catalonia were ended in 1714. See here
The surrender of the pro-Archduke forces to the Franco-Spanish army in 1714 was not only the end of the war, but also a phase in the centralization of various monarchies on the European continent which had been going on for two centuries. With the War of the Spanish Succession completed, Spain evolved from a personal union of different states to a centralized kingdom. The defenders of the city were buried in a cemetery, now a plaça (in Catalan: square) called Fossar de les Moreres, where Catalans gather every 11 September, known as the National Day of Catalonia or la Diada.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:53 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Because that referendum would be preceded by an alteration of the constitution which would allow secession, under certain circumstances.
and what procedure would be involved in that? A Spain-wide constitutional referendum presumably? Or perhaps only a Catalonian referendum on the constitution? Can you be specific?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:00 AM   #91
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It existed when the independence of Aragon, and Catalonia were ended in 1714.
It existed as a subject of the Crown of Spain, which fought on the losing side of a succession war. That gives it about as much claim to independence as the Confederacy might have today.

No, their sole claim to independence is and should be the fact a large portion of the population wants it. If that proportion is large enough (>60%, IMHO) then it might be worthwhile to go ahead with it, if not it's not worth the effort and there is no mandate for it anyway.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:08 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
and what procedure would be involved in that? A Spain-wide constitutional referendum presumably?
Section 167, page 81. Happy reading!

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/p...o_ingles_0.pdf

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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:13 AM   #93
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Bad laws that are still supported by the people who hold power can only be changed by breaking those laws. History provides innumerable examples.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:23 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Section 167, page 81. Happy reading!

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/p...o_ingles_0.pdf

McHrozni
Thank you. So if even one tenth of the members of each house so decide, it will be put to a Spain wide referendum. (I can see why you didn't think it expedient to write that down yourself.) Thus the Catalans will be acting lawfully only if they secure the prior consent of 90+% of legislators or a Spain-wide referendum. Otherwise their elected leaders will be criminals. I get the idea.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:30 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It existed as a subject of the Crown of Spain, which fought on the losing side of a succession war. That gives it about as much claim to independence as the Confederacy might have today.
That is incomprehensible gibberish. You're not even trying to make sense. You've shouted Confederacy so as to discredit Catalan independence by association. But of what Crown were the slave states dependencies in 1860? Rubbish.
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
No, their sole claim to independence is and should be the fact a large portion of the population wants it. If that proportion is large enough (>60%, IMHO) then it might be worthwhile to go ahead with it, if not it's not worth the effort and there is no mandate for it anyway.
Proportion of what? Of Catalan voters? But what about the amendment to the Spanish constitution you call for? Can that be secured by 60% of Catalan electors?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:32 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Thus the Catalans will be acting lawfully only if they secure the prior consent of 90+% of legislators or a Spain-wide referendum. Otherwise their elected leaders will be criminals. I get the idea.
This would be a Madrid-led effort, not a Barcelona-led one. They would have decent chances in both options. No, their leaders would not be criminals if they pursued a legal change of status or constitution through legal means.

Pursuing an illegal referendum in the face of strict opposition from Madrid and the constitutional court without any Venezuela-like shenanigans (read section 2), is criminal. As someone put what would be next, arresting journalists who report on the bad aspects of indepednance? Madrid couldn't let this referendum happen due to several reasons, to keep the country apart was but one of them. The other is that a violation of constitution that goes unchallanged creates a dangerous precendens by itself.

Should it act differently, with more restraint? Sure. I expect of them to put those who permitted (or ordered) the usage of rubber bullets and battons over the referendum on trial and have the highest ranking responsible punished to the full extent of the law. Much of their other actions, including taking away the control of the police force, are exactly how a democracy should react to a rogue faction in the government using the Constitution as toilet paper.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:35 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That is incomprehensible gibberish. You're not even trying to make sense. You've shouted Confederacy so as to discredit Catalan independence by association. But of what Crown were the slave states dependencies in 1860? Rubbish.
The only thing rubbish about it is your response.

Quote:
Proportion of what? Of Catalan voters?
Obviously

Quote:
But what about the amendment to the Spanish constitution you call for? Can that be secured by 60% of Catalan electors?
Probably not, unless the turnout in the other regions is really, really low.

Why?

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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:40 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This would be a Madrid-led effort, not a Barcelona-led one.
I see. So in the same way Ireland should have waited for London to lead the effort to secure independence for Ireland. That might have involved some delay.

Yes. In the U.K. London, and in Spain Madrid, decides what is or is not lawful after all. I'm beginning to suspect that your contributions here are a subtle satire on the nature of imperialism, rather than the outcome of serious meditation.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:43 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Why?
I'm inclined to take that question as proof of the satirical intent of your comments. It must be obvious why.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:46 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Any democratic country faced with an illegal independence referendum would act in a similar manner.
Isn't the "democratic country" just a subterfuge to leave apart the "the British are coming" -not precisely riotous tourists, I mean- scent in all of this issue?
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What I'm saying about the topic:

Unlike the case for Scotland, Castilian Spain has been mooching of Catalonia during centuries.

Unlike the case for Scotland, Castilian Spain have sent their unemployed and internal migrants to Catalonia for Catalans to employ and feed them and as a result about half of the make-up of Catalonia's population come from people born in other places of Spain during the last century, hence there are so many "Catalans" against independence (Any Spanish citizen can vote, not only Catalonia's natives. Any person can be polled by Gallup, not only Spanish citizens but illegal immigrants who fear to lose their jobs in an independent Catalonia and will declare to the pollsters to be citizens)

Unlike a relatively uniform Britain (yes, the keyword is "relatively", and be sure I know Britain a hundred times better than most people here know Spain), there are much deeper differences among different Spanish nationalities, with 10 different languages -one of them not even and Indoeuropean one- some of them nearly extinct owing to political pressure from the central government*, and basically the hard working people (Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Basque Country, Navarra, Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Balearic Islands) feeding the imperialists (Castile, mainly Madrid, and Leon) and the any-time-of-day-is-good-for-a-siesta bumps (Extremadura, Andalusia, Murcia, Canary Islands).

Yesterday, the actual political system -not the legal ones- in Spain simply imploded. Now it's time to watch and learn, not to cast light opinions.

* Signs I have read in different regions to mark the train station exits:
Salida in Castilian
Sortida in Catalan
Euxida in Valencian (from Latin, like English "exit")
Irteera in Basque
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:47 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Section 167, page 81. Happy reading!

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/p...o_ingles_0.pdf

McHrozni
No, Section 168 applies. The indivisibility of Spain is laid down in Section 2, in the Preliminary Part. The procedure then is as follows:
1) both Houses of the Cortes approve the principle of the proposed constitutional change with a two/thirds majority;
2) both Houses are immediately dissolved and re-elected;
3) the new Houses vote on the constitutional change with a two/thirds majority;
4) the constitutional change must be approved by referendum.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:52 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, Section 168 applies. The indivisibility of Spain is laid down in Section 2, in the Preliminary Part. The procedure then is as follows:
1) both Houses of the Cortes approve the principle of the proposed constitutional change with a two/thirds majority;
2) both Houses are immediately dissolved and re-elected;
3) the new Houses vote on the constitutional change with a two/thirds majority;
4) the constitutional change must be approved by referendum.
Thank you. I don't think even achieving a substantial majority of Catalan voters will be able to surmount these constitutional hurdles. So the expression of their wishes will remain unlawful.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:54 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This may be the worst PR blunder by a central government handling a secessionist movement since the Easter Rising.
How about the Amritsar Massacre in 1919?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:57 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Unlike the case for Scotland, Castilian Spain has been mooching of Catalonia during centuries.

I don't want to derail the thread, just to put down a marker that the "unlike the case for Scotland" comment is incorrect.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:09 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is nonesense.

Catalonia was a major part of the kingdom of Aragon, which formed, alongside kingdoms of Castillie, Leon and Asturias, the kingdom of Spain. It was never conquered by Spain, Spain didn't even exist when the union was created. It doesn't belong to Spain any more than Castillie does.

McHrozni
Spain formally emerged as a centralized state from the War of the Spanish Succession, during which the new Bourbon king Philip V issued the Nueva Planta decrees. But in the two centuries and a half between the Union of the Crowns by Ferdinand and Isabella and that, "the Spains" had been reigned centrally from Madrid by a king who applied Castilian absolutist norms to the whole of his empire and saw the Aragonese and Catalan parliaments merely as hindrances to his power.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:09 AM   #106
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I'm inclined to take that question as proof of the satirical intent of your comments. It must be obvious why.
No, it's not. Democracy means, among other things, you can't reorder the state around to your liking without consent of a large proportion of the elected representatives and/or the electorate.

Catalonian independence will not affect only the Catalans, so they must necessarily secure agreement from other parts of Spain who would also be impacted from the secession. The horror! The inhumanity! The injustice! ... etc.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:11 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Spain formally emerged as a centralized state from the War of the Spanish Succession, during which the new Bourbon king Philip V issued the Nueva Planta decrees. But in the two centuries and a half between the Union of the Crowns by Ferdinand and Isabella and that, "the Spains" had been reigned centrally from Madrid by a king who applied Castilian absolutist norms to the whole of his empire and saw the Aragonese and Catalan parliaments merely as hindrances to his power.
Sure, there is no doubt that Castillie came out on top. But this wasn't in a war of conquest, but by political maneuvering that saw the favored Castillie win out in the end.

If you're really picky you could say Aragonese were subjugated through subterfuge and dirty politics, it's not wrong per se, but it wasn't a military conquest by any definition of the term that I'm aware of.

Spain wasn't the only such nation, France went through a similar period, but managed to effectively assimilate the minorities to the north and south. Germany too was more of a conglomerate of tribes which were kindof similar until late 19th century when national identity arose. Ditto for Italy. Spain is only special in that it unified in a more peaceful way and that the ruling elite bothered far less with integrating its minorities ... or something. These were mistakes, of course. That doesn't mean Catalonia would be best served as an independent state any more than Hesse would be better off alone outside of Germany.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:37 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
No, it's not. Democracy means, among other things, you can't reorder the state around to your liking without consent of a large proportion of the elected representatives and/or the electorate.

Catalonian independence will not affect only the Catalans, so they must necessarily secure agreement from other parts of Spain who would also be impacted from the secession. The horror! The inhumanity! The injustice! ... etc.

McHrozni
Thank you. Why did you then attempt to bamboozle us at first by talking about the inadequacy of the Catalan assent to the proposed separation? As is now clear, there is no level of Catalan assent that would be adequate in your mind. Madrid decides whether Catalonia is to be independent in your view, and so it ought to be, you say. Well why didn't you say that all at once? The rest of Spain is impacted by the secession of Catalonia, so the opinions of the Catalans are not the determining feature in that question.

You're now saying, and at last I believe implicitly in your seriousness, that since a whole Empire will be affected by the abscondence of one of its dependencies, it is the Empire, not the local residents, that must decide that dependency's fate.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:43 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Thank you. Why did you then attempt to bamboozle us at first by talking about the inadequacy of the Catalan assent to the proposed separation? As is now clear, there is no level of Catalan assent that would be adequate in your mind. Madrid decides whether Catalonia is to be independent in your view, and so it ought to be, you say.
That's nonesense. Of course Catalonian independence without Catalonian agreement to it would be impossible. You can't just cut away parts of the country that don't want independence.

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You're now saying, and at last I believe implicitly in your seriousness, that since a whole Empire will be affected by the abscondence of one of its dependencies, it is the Empire, not the local residents, that must decide that dependency's fate.
Catalonia is not a dependency of an Empire. It is a founding member and a major part of a nation-state. Your comparison is meaningless.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:51 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If you're really picky you could say Aragonese were subjugated through subterfuge and dirty politics, it's not wrong per se, but it wasn't a military conquest by any definition of the term that I'm aware of.
You're not aware of any definition of military conquest that might be fulfilled by the event described here?
By 25 July of that year the city of Barcelona was surrounded by Bourbon forces ... but attacks upon it were unfruitful due to the scarcity of artillery. The Bourbons then waited for a 20,000 man reinforcement force, which arrived in April–May 1714. Under the command of Duke of Berwick, the assault was renewed despite the efforts of the Catalans to break the siege by sending troops behind enemy lines ... Finally, the Catalan leaders decided to surrender and start the negotiations about capitulation ... This defeat represents the end of the Principality of Catalonia as a political entity, as its independent institutions and legislation were suppressed and replaced by Castilian ones.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 05:02 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You're not aware of any definition of military conquest that might be fulfilled by the event described here?
If you follow that logic a good portion of the US was conquered by the Federal forces from Confederacy. If you think this is nonesense then congratulations, you've discovered why this 'argument' of yours is BS.

Actually no, belay that. The argument Confederacy is conquered makes much, much more sense. Confederacy didn't claim authority over the entire US, it just wanted to be its own state. The forces of Catalonia, alongside allies, wanted to keep Spain as it was, but under a different king. It is called the War of Spanish Sucession, that could quite be a giveaway.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 05:28 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Sure, there is no doubt that Castillie came out on top. But this wasn't in a war of conquest, but by political maneuvering that saw the favored Castillie win out in the end.

If you're really picky you could say Aragonese were subjugated through subterfuge and dirty politics, it's not wrong per se, but it wasn't a military conquest by any definition of the term that I'm aware of.
The accumulation of various duchies and counties in the Low Countries under the Burgundian crown in roughly the same timeframe was also done (mostly) peacefully by political maneuvering. By the same token, the rebellion of those provinces against the heir of the Burgundian crown, Philip II, would be illegal?

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Spain wasn't the only such nation, France went through a similar period, but managed to effectively assimilate the minorities to the north and south.
France quite forcefully suppressed expression of regional identity in Britanny, in French Flanders, and most importantly, in the Langue D'Oc.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Germany too was more of a conglomerate of tribes which were kindof similar until late 19th century when national identity arose. Ditto for Italy. Spain is only special in that it unified in a more peaceful way and that the ruling elite bothered far less with integrating its minorities ... or something.
Germany's unification was quite bloodless internally, actually (then I count Austria as "outside"). Italy's as well, Garibaldi managed to conquer Naples and Sicily with 1,000 volunteers. Germany's unification also was done in a federal manner, leaving regional autonomy to the constituent states.

Saying Spain unified peacefully disregards the various civil wars that have been fought throughout the centuries.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
These were mistakes, of course. That doesn't mean Catalonia would be best served as an independent state any more than Hesse would be better off alone outside of Germany.
Hesse would be an awkward case, as it would be an enclave fully surrounded by German territory (did you pick that on purpose?). But what you mentioned in a previous post is spot-on: in a few decades, a split of a state within the EU would be as disruptive as merging two municipalities, i.e., not at all. And I would add: even today, such a split would not have adverse effects on government efficacy when it comes to regions that already have high degrees of autonomy, such as Catalonia, or Scotland, or Flanders, or Wallonia. In fact, they would just cut out the middleman in Madrid, London, or Brussels between their regional government and the European one.

When it comes to independence, I think the overriding principle should be that the state is there to serve the people, and not the people there to serve the state as Frederick the Great of Prussia would have it. When the people want to be independent, let them be; and I agree there with you that that should be a convincing majority, not just barely a majority of 51%.

What Hlafordlaes hasn't mentioned in his posts, is that there was a renewed, increased autonomy statute for Catalonia agreed in 2006 and that this has been largely struck down in 2010 by the Constitutional Court. That certainly has given a new impetus to a Catalan drive for independence. The Catalans went to the streets with the slogan "we are a nation".

28 years ago, the people of Leipzig went to the street with a similar slogan: "we are the people". There were no deaths, no injuries, there was not even police visible on the street. And that was the oppressive GDR regime.

The Spanish government should also heed Gorbachev's advice to Egon Krenz and his buddies: "He who comes too late is punished by life."
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Old 2nd October 2017, 05:31 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Catalonia is not a dependency of an Empire. It is a founding member and a major part of a nation-state. Your comparison is meaningless.

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Whether Spain qualifies as such is at the heart of the matter here. Many, many Catalans dispute the "nation" part.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 05:43 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The accumulation of various duchies and counties in the Low Countries under the Burgundian crown in roughly the same timeframe was also done (mostly) peacefully by political maneuvering. By the same token, the rebellion of those provinces against the heir of the Burgundian crown, Philip II, would be illegal?
Of course it was illegal at the time.

Comparing a 16th century kingdom to a 21st century one is inappropriate though.

Quote:
France quite forcefully suppressed expression of regional identity in Britanny, in French Flanders, and most importantly, in the Langue D'Oc.

Germany's unification was quite bloodless internally, actually (then I count Austria as "outside"). Italy's as well, Garibaldi managed to conquer Naples and Sicily with 1,000 volunteers. Germany's unification also was done in a federal manner, leaving regional autonomy to the constituent states.
Of course there are differences in how these nations formed and unified into one.

Quote:
Saying Spain unified peacefully disregards the various civil wars that have been fought throughout the centuries.
All major states of Europe had major civil wars by that standard, so this tells us precisely nothing of value.

Quote:
Hesse would be an awkward case, as it would be an enclave fully surrounded by German territory (did you pick that on purpose?).
Busted
It just so happens it's also one of the richest states in Germany, so it wasn't the only reason.

Quote:
When it comes to independence, I think the overriding principle should be that the state is there to serve the people, and not the people there to serve the state as Frederick the Great of Prussia would have it. When the people want to be independent, let them be; and I agree there with you that that should be a convincing majority, not just barely a majority of 51%.
Correct. And it would have to be acceptable to as many as possible, including as many people as possible who would remain behind in the old state.

Quote:
What Hlafordlaes hasn't mentioned in his posts, is that there was a renewed, increased autonomy statute for Catalonia agreed in 2006 and that this has been largely struck down in 2010 by the Constitutional Court. That certainly has given a new impetus to a Catalan drive for independence. The Catalans went to the streets with the slogan "we are a nation".

28 years ago, the people of Leipzig went to the street with a similar slogan: "we are the people". There were no deaths, no injuries, there was not even police visible on the street. And that was the oppressive GDR regime.

The Spanish government should also heed Gorbachev's advice to Egon Krenz and his buddies: "He who comes too late is punished by life."
Yes, I did mention Spain should rethink and rework their strategy to keep the country together. Their approach is behind the times and needs significant changes or else Spain may well fall apart before it becomes an irrelevant issue.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 05:53 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If you follow that logic a good portion of the US was conquered by the Federal forces from Confederacy. If you think this is nonesense then congratulations, you've discovered why this 'argument' of yours is BS.

Actually no, belay that. The argument Confederacy is conquered makes much, much more sense. Confederacy didn't claim authority over the entire US, it just wanted to be its own state. The forces of Catalonia, alongside allies, wanted to keep Spain as it was, but under a different king. It is called the War of Spanish Sucession, that could quite be a giveaway.

McHrozni
I regret that indeed I must say you seem to be back in gibberish mode again about the Confederacy. Up until 1714 Catalonia was an existing polity with a Parliament that had experienced in its long history: independence; association with other polities within Aragon, and personal monarchic union with Castile. The 1714 siege was therefore not performed to suppress Catalan or Aragonese secession.

The post 1714 events, as my last citation suggested, turned Spain into a unitary state with Castilian-style institutions, which had not existed over all Spain before; therefore unlike the confederacy, Catalonia had never seceded from it, and was not doing so in 1714. Between the days of Ferdinand and Isabella, and 1714, the situation of Aragon was much like that of Scotland in the years 1603 to 1707. Nobody doubts that it was in the latter year, not the former, that Scotland lost its independence to a more dominant neighbour.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 06:05 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I regret that indeed I must say you seem to be back in gibberish mode again about the Confederacy. Up until 1714 Catalonia was an existing polity with a Parliament that had experienced in its long history: independence; association with other polities within Aragon, and personal monarchic union with Castile. The 1714 siege was therefore not performed to suppress Catalan or Aragonese secession.

The post 1714 events, as my last citation suggested, turned Spain into a unitary state with Castilian-style institutions, which had not existed over all Spain before; therefore unlike the confederacy, Catalonia had never seceded from it, and was not doing so in 1714. Between the days of Ferdinand and Isabella, and 1714, the situation of Aragon was much like that of Scotland in the years 1603 to 1707. Nobody doubts that it was in the latter year, not the former, that Scotland lost its independence to a more dominant neighbour.
Yes, you figured it out.

Saying Catalonia was conquered in 1714 makes even less sense than to say Confederacy was conquered and annexed by the Federation.

Good job

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Old 2nd October 2017, 06:14 AM   #117
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Hello from Spain, well, the Basque Country, actually (most of my friends would never say "from Spain", but I´m not very into Basque nationalism, personally).

My take is that the Spanish government has used heavy handed tactics in order to win the support of Spanish nationalists. Many of these would not bat an eye even if he had sent tanks. It´s a bit like when Trump says outrageous things and still, he seems to win support from his low-brow voters.

Also, the biggest issue in Spanish politics lately has been that of corruption, which is huge and we´ve only seen a tiny point of the probervial iceberg, but even this tiny point is huge, so you can imagine the rest. And this referendum is helping both the PP and the also hugely corrupt Catalonian parties to shed a smokescreen on this issue and make people talk about the referendum instead.

The issue shouldn´t be whether Catalans are governed by thieves from Madrid or thieves from Barcelona, the issue should be to get rid of the thieves, fix the justice system (separation of the legislative and the judiciary is badly compromised), enact effective laws to clean the system, etc. But I´m very pessimistic about whether any current political party in Spain has any intention if fixing this. They all seem to be accomplices in the same scam.

As for the Catalan nationalists´ insistence on independence, It seems quite irresponsible to start all this when polls only indicated support of very near 50% of the Catalan population.

And then there is the thing that no nationalist that I´ve spoken to has answered me sensibly, who decides whether Catalonia is a nation and has the right for self-determination? The Basque Country can too, according to many here, but if you ask them about whether a province within the Basque Country (say, Alava for example) may exert the same right of self determination, then they often will oppose the idea, using the same arguments that Spanish nationalists use to defend the "unity of Spain"...

I mean, where is the limit of self determination? It´s not such a simple question after all...

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Old 2nd October 2017, 06:43 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, you figured it out.

Saying Catalonia was conquered in 1714 makes even less sense than to say Confederacy was conquered and annexed by the Federation.

Good job

McHrozni
I really am baffled now. Catalonia had a Parliament and a polity. These were ended after Barcelona capitulated following a siege in 1714. Thereafter Spain became a unitary country with Castilian institutions. At no time had Catalonia seceded from such an entity because it had not existed before. The Confederacy seceded from the Union and was then brought back under union control. That is different. Catalonia was conquered, but not after, or in the course of, seceding.

What you are trying to do is to associate Catalan independence with the secession of the confederacy from the USA. But there is no real comparison.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 11:38 AM   #119
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Although 'constitutions' are often lauded, this shows a problem.

Quote:
What Hlafordlaes hasn't mentioned in his posts, is that there was a renewed, increased autonomy statute for Catalonia agreed in 2006 and that this has been largely struck down in 2010 by the Constitutional Court. That certainly has given a new impetus to a Catalan drive for independence.
The Spanish / Castillian? government tried to move forward on autonomy for Catalan. It is not the central government that is the barrier but the constitution. Barriers are put to constitutional change.

In the UK situation it would be easy to see how a written constitution from fifty years ago might create similar barriers to Scottish independence or gay rights. Constitutions fix concepts of their era and writers.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 12:17 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This may be the worst PR blunder by a central government handling a secessionist movement since the Easter Rising.
The backlash against the British government in Ireland came with the execution of the leaders,which many advised them against;that it would turn a group of people that many who favored Home Rule considered to be bunch of extremists into matrys;it ,for the first time, caused a majority of the Irish people to think that armed resistence to the UK Government was justified.
Spain might have just made a similar mistake.
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