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Tags Catalonia incidents , Catalonia issues , independence movements , separatist movements , Spain incidents , Spain issues , Spain politics

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Old 2nd October 2017, 12:19 PM   #121
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The Spanish police attacking the Catalan firefighters standing in their firefighting protective gear, but unarmed, in front of the civilians trying to vote, was another low point. And the Catalan police lined up in front of the civilians trying to protect them from the Spanish police.

And the civilian woman who was trying to protect a group of elderly voters who was thrown to the ground, thrown down a flight of steps, and had her fingers deliberately and systematically broken one by one by the Spanish police was another. That was filmed live, as well as the woman herself giving a somewhat stressed account of it once she got back from hospital with her hands in splints.

I saw on Twitter there had been a fatality.

You know, I don't understand these people who say, I'm not in favour of the break-up of big states, we should stay united, I want the minimum number of states on the planet, and so on. Which states are behaving in the most egregious manner on the globe? By and large, the big ones. Look at any of the rankings of prosperity and happiness and you'll see the top spots dominated by countries with less than 10 million of a population.

States of that size are far less likely to be throwing their weight around, "punching above" that weight and generally making a damn nuisance of themselves. Why would anyone doubt the ability of Catalonia to thrive as an independent country? Or Scotland either for that matter. Just look at the most comparable existing states and see how they're getting on. Just fine, is the answer.

A few more Catalonias and Scotlands and yes Kurdistans, and fewer Spains and UKs and Iraqs, and the world would be a better place.
Painting with a very broad bush there.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 02:21 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The backlash against the British government in Ireland came with the execution of the leaders,which many advised them against;that it would turn a group of people that many who favored Home Rule considered to be bunch of extremists into matrys;it ,for the first time, caused a majority of the Irish people to think that armed resistence to the UK Government was justified.
Spain might have just made a similar mistake.
Yep.

In other news, General Francisco Franco is still dead... but stirring slightly.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 03:01 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Italy's as well, Garibaldi managed to conquer Naples and Sicily with 1,000 volunteers.

The unification didn't see much fighting, but it is less known that in the aftermath to hold the south they needed to deploy almost one hundred thousand troops and apprehend/kill thousands of "brigands" (both the number of casualties and of detentions weren't officially documented, probably they didn't jibe well with the rethoric of unification).

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Old 2nd October 2017, 04:36 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yep.

In other news, General Francisco Franco is still dead... but stirring slightly.
Hey, Giz, don't steal my shtick;I mentioned Franco is alive and well a couple of pages ago.
It is scarily reminiscent of the run up to the Spanish Civil War.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 05:36 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Hey, Giz, don't steal my shtick;I mentioned Franco is alive and well a couple of pages ago.
It is scarily reminiscent of the run up to the Spanish Civil War.
Franco my dudalb, I don't give a ... wait, wrong secession. Just think of it as putting the homage in catalonia.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:55 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Although 'constitutions' are often lauded, this shows a problem.

The Spanish / Castillian? government tried to move forward on autonomy for Catalan. It is not the central government that is the barrier but the constitution. Barriers are put to constitutional change.
It seems to me this is grounds for amending the constitution, no?

It doesn't need to allow secession (though at this point it is fast becoming necessary), but it should allow sufficient autonomy within the Spanish state for Catalonians to feel at peace with it, at least for a time.

This would be the way to go in 2010. Now, I think, Spain will need to do far more if it is to calm the region.

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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:26 AM   #127
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Yes I agree.

Constitutions are usually designed to be difficult to be changed. If there was a strong commitment from the central government they might achieve this. But I suspect there may be many other special interest groups that would need to be bought off.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:36 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Yes I agree.

Constitutions are usually designed to be difficult to be changed. If there was a strong commitment from the central government they might achieve this. But I suspect there may be many other special interest groups that would need to be bought off.
Yes, but that's a feature, not a bug, of constitutions. They need to be difficult to change or else they're meaningless, but hey must also be possible to change, because the needs of the times also change.

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Old 3rd October 2017, 01:59 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is nonesense.

Catalonia was a major part of the kingdom of Aragon, which formed, alongside kingdoms of Castillie, Leon and Asturias, the kingdom of Spain. It was never conquered by Spain, Spain didn't even exist when the union was created. It doesn't belong to Spain any more than Castillie does.

McHrozni
Early history. There's more, later! Besides, "citizen by royal marriage" is shaky grounds, especially if Castile wants to double-down on claimed legitimacy.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 02:06 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Early history. There's more, later! Besides, "citizen by royal marriage" is shaky grounds, especially if Castile wants to double-down on claimed legitimacy.
Maybe so, but it isn't "military conquest". I'm not saying Spain should be kept together at all costs with the present approach. I'm saying not all criticisms of the present approach are accurate.

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Old 3rd October 2017, 03:00 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The Spanish / Castillian? government tried to move forward on autonomy for Catalan. It is not the central government that is the barrier but the constitution. Barriers are put to constitutional change.
From reading the wiki page on it, the 2006 Catalonian government reached an agreement on the statute with the governing left-wing PSOE government, it was approved by the Spanish parliament and then a constitutional challenge was filed by the opposition right-wing PP (which is now in government), as well as by surrounding autonomous communities. The Constitutional Court wrangled with the issue for four years. I haven't looked closely into this, so I don't know what the importance of the articles they rewrote resp. interpreted is.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, but that's a feature, not a bug, of constitutions. They need to be difficult to change or else they're meaningless, but hey must also be possible to change, because the needs of the times also change.
Indeed.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:54 AM   #132
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General strike now, 100Ks on the streets of Barcelona. Demanding that the local Spanish police HQ will be turned into a library.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 08:30 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Maybe so, but it isn't "military conquest". I'm not saying Spain should be kept together at all costs with the present approach. I'm saying not all criticisms of the present approach are accurate.

McHrozni
Well, that was what I was getting at. The last round was indeed the Siege of BarcelonaWP, 1714, a military conquest. BTW, there is another common expression in Madrid: "It's proper due diligence to bomb Barcelona once a century." The fort atop Montjuich and the Ciutadella, now destroyed, were put in or around the city for that purpose.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 08:34 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Maybe so, but it isn't "military conquest".
See #89, #110 and #133.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 09:31 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It was the execution of the signatories of the 1916 Proclamation that turned the populace against the UK in Ireland. And their offence was not to hold a peaceful Referendum, but to launch a bloody uprising.

If Madrid punishes the Generalitat for conducting a peaceful democratic enterprise, following the Spanish police's own recent brutality in Barcelona, that will be a gift to the separatists.
I'm not at all sure this reading of Irish history is correct actually. It seems to have become a generally accepted meme that the execution of the leaders of the Easter Rising turned a peaceful, Home Rule wanting population towards armed Irish Republicanism, but when you look at that period of history in any detail there's scant evidence for it. Closer to the truth I think is that the executions formed a rallying point for a population who were already in sympathy with the Rising, just as internment did in the North in the early 1970s.

And just as the actions of the Spanish police will probably do in Catalonia.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:05 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I'm not at all sure this reading of Irish history is correct actually. It seems to have become a generally accepted meme that the execution of the leaders of the Easter Rising turned a peaceful, Home Rule wanting population towards armed Irish Republicanism, but when you look at that period of history in any detail there's scant evidence for it. Closer to the truth I think is that the executions formed a rallying point for a population who were already in sympathy with the Rising, just as internment did in the North in the early 1970s.

And just as the actions of the Spanish police will probably do in Catalonia.
A majority of the population at least in what was to become the Republic,was in favor of Home Rule.but only a small militant minority seemed in favor of a violent uprising.....until the aftermath of the Easter Rising.
You seem to be buying the more militant Irish Republican reading of Irish History...which is to be taken with a ton of salt.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:08 PM   #137
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The actions of the Spanish Government were deplorable, but I have a really hard time buying the 94% in favor of secession claims by the party involved. You only get that kind of majority in staged elections like you see in dictatorships. I think we are going to get all kinds of B.S. from both sided.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:19 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The actions of the Spanish Government were deplorable, but I have a really hard time buying the 94% in favor of secession claims by the party involved. You only get that kind of majority in staged elections like you see in dictatorships. I think we are going to get all kinds of B.S. from both sided.
Last I heard it was 90%, but in any case, I'm not surprised. Hard police action was already announced and there had been several raids of would-be polling stations and storage of the ballots.

In those circumstances, it's not surprising if only people who were in favour of independence came out to vote and risked getting beaten up. I think it's more surprising that still 10% who voted against risked that to go out and vote.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:24 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You only get that kind of majority in staged elections like you see in dictatorships.
Well, no. You can also get those kinds of numbers when the referendum is boycotted by one or more parties.

For example, the recent referendum in Puerto Rico was 97% in favor of statehood, because the pro-status quo voters were encouraged not to participate.

Not coincidentally, those opposed to independence in Catalonia boycotted this referendum.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:49 PM   #140
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Which sort of makes the referendum questionable as a reading of the will of the Cataloninan people?

But people here are in full "Up The Revolution!" mode,so I should not expect balanced opinions.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 12:56 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which sort of makes the referendum questionable as a reading of the will of the Cataloninan people?
That's the point of an electoral boycott, yes.

Quote:
But people here are in full "Up The Revolution!" mode,so I should not expect balanced opinions.
No idea what you're talking about, sorry.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 01:49 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which sort of makes the referendum questionable as a reading of the will of the Cataloninan people?
It means that 97.10% of the 42.58% turnout (I looked up those numbers on wiki) are in favour of independence. And maybe some more.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But people here are in full "Up The Revolution!" mode,so I should not expect balanced opinions.
I'm not sure what you mean. But the Spanish government certainly shot themselves in the foot with their heavy-handed approach. There's more than a few Catalonians who were against independence, or were on the fence, and now think: I don't want to be part of such a country.

Rajoy better heed the words that Gorbachev spoke to the GDR Politburo in Oktober 1989: "Dangers await only those who do not react to life."
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Old 3rd October 2017, 01:50 PM   #143
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Catalan referendum: Vote illegal - Spain's King Felipe

Spain's King Felipe VI has condemned organisers of Catalonia's independence referendum for having put themselves "outside the law".
In a TV address to the nation, he said the situation in Spain was "extremely serious", and called for unity.

News just breaking Catalonia to declare independence in next 5 days.

Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, the leader of the autonomous region has told the BBC.
In his first interview since Sunday's referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:05 PM   #144
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How is this secession effort different from the efforts Bossi made to try and rally support for Northern Italy to secede from the rest (not successful, obviously) about 20 years ago? A core gripe that is similar appears to be the "we are shouldering the economic burden of the rest of you."

If the Catalonian independence declaration happens, do we get to watch Spanish Civil War, part dos? Part uno was not a pretty sight.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:05 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It means that 97.10% of the 42.58% turnout (I looked up those numbers on wiki) are in favour of independence. And maybe some more.


I'm not sure what you mean. But the Spanish government certainly shot themselves in the foot with their heavy-handed approach. There's more than a few Catalonians who were against independence, or were on the fence, and now think: I don't want to be part of such a country.

Rajoy better heed the words that Gorbachev spoke to the GDR Politburo in Oktober 1989: "Dangers await only those who do not react to life."
I agree the Spanish Government shot itself in the foot with it's stupid handling of the referendum but I think that a poll like the referendum is a very shaky grounds for something as important as independence.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:08 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Catalan referendum: Vote illegal - Spain's King Felipe

Spain's King Felipe VI has condemned organisers of Catalonia's independence referendum for having put themselves "outside the law".
In a TV address to the nation, he said the situation in Spain was "extremely serious", and called for unity.

News just breaking Catalonia to declare independence in next 5 days.

Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, the leader of the autonomous region has told the BBC.
In his first interview since Sunday's referendum, Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014


How do you say "Our Lives, Our Fortunes, and Our Sacred Honor" in Catalan?

This escalates it. A UDI (Unilaterial Decalaration of Independence) is a lot farther then the SNP or the Parti Qubecois would dream of going.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:10 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
How is this secession effort different from the efforts Bossi made to try and rally support for Northern Italy to secede from the rest (not successful, obviously) about 20 years ago? A core gripe that is similar appears to be the "we are shouldering the economic burden of the rest of you."

If the Catalonian independence declaration happens, do we get to watch Spanish Civil War, part dos? Part uno was not a pretty sight.
George Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" should be required reading.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:21 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree the Spanish Government shot itself in the foot with it's stupid handling of the referendum but I think that a poll like the referendum is a very shaky grounds for something as important as independence.
Oh yes, as I said, it shows that at least 41% of the Catalan eligible voters favour independence. That's a large minority but not a majority.

I fear the Spanish government will only escalate it with more violence.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This escalates it.
Yes. Not a word of empathy for his Catalan subjects. Not a word about the horrible police abuse that was for all the world to see. He just reiterated Rajoy's party line.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A UDI (Unilaterial Decalaration of Independence) is a lot farther then the SNP or the Parti Qubecois would dream of going.
But then, they got the referenda they desired in negotiation with the national government.

I note though a bit of backtracking. Before the referendum, Puidgemont said they would declare independence within 48 hours of the referendum. Those 48 hours are over. Now it's within five days from now.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:26 PM   #149
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What is not being reported is how the Spanish Public outside of Catalan is reacting to this.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 05:13 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post

This escalates it. A UDI (Unilaterial Decalaration of Independence) is a lot farther then the SNP or the Parti Qubecois would dream of going.
Yes, but neither the UK or Canadian governments would have behaved like the Castilians, sorry Spanish, just did.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 05:47 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yes, but neither the UK or Canadian governments would have behaved like the Castilians, sorry Spanish, just did.
Agreed, but still worried a UDI will just make matters worse.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 05:49 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The actions of the Spanish Government were deplorable, but I have a really hard time buying the 94% in favor of secession claims by the party involved. You only get that kind of majority in staged elections like you see in dictatorships. I think we are going to get all kinds of B.S. from both sided.
The referendum, not being agreed upon with the Spanish government nor viable in the current Spanish Constitution, is not legal. It was organized by the three independent parties: ERC, CiU (now PDeCAT), and CUP. Other parties from the Catalan parliament (PP, Ciutadans and PSC/PSOE) were clearly against the referendum, with the remaining party Catalunya Sí Que Es Pot initially against an unilateral referendum, but given the public outcry from the independence movement and their own internal divisions, they ultimately favored the referendum more than not although they did not take active part. Their partner Podemos is the only party nationwide that supports a referendum, within legal means.

Catalonia is an autonomous community. These are administrative divisions. It has its own "miniconstitution", the Statute, which allows the Catalan government (Generalitat) to pass their own laws to a certain degree (competencies have been a typical tug-of-war between central and autonomous governments, and not just in Catalonia). It takes a supermajority in the Catalan Parliament (I don't remember exactly, let's say two thirds) to reform the Statute, but "surprisingly" it took much less than that for the pro independence parties (which represent little more than half the seats with the help of radically anticapitalist party CUP) to pass the referendum law and the "transition" law (to an independent state, which was "legally" tied to the result of the referendum), thus bypassing the laws that legitimize the existence of the Catalan institutions in the first place and effectively surpassing their actual competencies. It was described by the opposition as a "coup to democracy". The opposition (which roughly represents half the population in Catalonia) never recognized this referendum. Some will hardly ever consider that possibility under any circumstance, legal or not (PP, Ciutadans), while others don't consider that possibility but a little softer about it and are proposing some middle ground (PSC/PSOE). None of these parties supported taking part in the referendum, and most of their voters didn't. That's why you get these numbers. We all knew that in Catalonia.

The Constitutional Court, of course, ruled that what the Catalan government did was inconstitutional. Not just the referendum, but the new laws that were passed ad hoc just a couple of months before. The Catalan leaders said, more or less, "Spanish institutions don't represent us anymore because Catalans want to decide, and they won't let us". Thus, began this period of open disobedience.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 05:52 PM   #153
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Sorry about the grammar. It won't let me edit it. I hope it was easy to comprehend.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:20 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A majority of the population at least in what was to become the Republic,was in favor of Home Rule.but only a small militant minority seemed in favor of a violent uprising.....until the aftermath of the Easter Rising.
You seem to be buying the more militant Irish Republican reading of Irish History...which is to be taken with a ton of salt.
No I'm not, I'm being rational and skeptical instead of accepting claims with no evidence. There's no evidence that the majority of the Irish people were in favour of Home Rule rather than independence, there's no evidence that they were in favour of a violent uprising either. Nobody actually asked the majority of Irish people what they were in favour of at the time, and the majority of them couldn't vote either so there's no way to tell. The speed with which they became outraged by the executions suggests there was a lot of latent sympathy for at least the aims of the Easter Rising, and the speed with which the Home Rule party was dumped at the ballot box as soon as the franchise was extended beyond a narrow section of propertied men suggests the ordinary population wasn't all that keen on Home Rule either.

As for Catalonia, I think declaring UDI is the only way they ever will get independence so good luck to them.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:53 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
No I'm not, I'm being rational and skeptical instead of accepting claims with no evidence. There's no evidence that the majority of the Irish people were in favour of Home Rule rather than independence, there's no evidence that they were in favour of a violent uprising either. Nobody actually asked the majority of Irish people what they were in favour of at the time, and the majority of them couldn't vote either so there's no way to tell. The speed with which they became outraged by the executions suggests there was a lot of latent sympathy for at least the aims of the Easter Rising, and the speed with which the Home Rule party was dumped at the ballot box as soon as the franchise was extended beyond a narrow section of propertied men suggests the ordinary population wasn't all that keen on Home Rule either.

As for Catalonia, I think declaring UDI is the only way they ever will get independence so good luck to them.
And you solid written evidence that a majority of the Irish population was in favor of the IRB before the rising is...........

Pretty clear you buy into a left wing view of history,and nothing will probably change that.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 08:06 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And you solid written evidence that a majority of the Irish population was in favor of the IRB before the rising is...........

Pretty clear you buy into a left wing view of history,and nothing will probably change that.
Explain to us all how you managed to read the words " Nobody actually asked the majority of Irish people what they were in favour of at the time, and the majority of them couldn't vote either so there's no way to tell" and interpret that as a claim that the majority of Irish people were in favour of the IRB before the Rising.

The only one projecting modern politics onto history here is you, not me.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 11:33 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The backlash against the British government in Ireland came with the execution of the leaders,which many advised them against;that it would turn a group of people that many who favored Home Rule considered to be bunch of extremists into matrys;it ,for the first time, caused a majority of the Irish people to think that armed resistence to the UK Government was justified.
On a point of detail, as Ireland was under martial law, the post-Rising courts martial and executions were down to the British military, and continued even in the face of mounting political pressure from London.
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Old 4th October 2017, 12:09 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Dani View Post
Sorry about the grammar. It won't let me edit it. I hope it was easy to comprehend.
Very good summary of the legal background of the issue.

What do you think is going to happen? I´m still amazed at all this crazyness. I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, what´s your take?

Last edited by Abooga; 4th October 2017 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 4th October 2017, 12:17 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Oh yes, as I said, it shows that at least 41% of the Catalan eligible voters favour independence. That's a large minority but not a majority.

I fear the Spanish government will only escalate it with more violence.
The only thing these pro-independence parties have going for them is the behavior of Spanish police towards people trying to vote in the referendum. That was uncalled for and must be sanctioned to the fullest extent of the law.

Beyond that they're no better than Antonio Tejero and his gang of failures. They usurped power above and beyond what was granted to them by illegal and unconstitutional means. No democracy can tollerate that and expect to remain a democracy.

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Old 4th October 2017, 12:34 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is not being reported is how the Spanish Public outside of Catalan is reacting to this.
It has been reported that the 100,000 people crowd at a Real Madrid game waved Spanish flags and called for national unity. Spaniards are reluctant to give Catalans their independence. It is not only a thing of the political elite, it is quite much a national attitude. With exceptions, but these exceptions appear to be a minority. So there will be a remarkable confrontation of willpower, the majority of Spaniards vs. Catalans.
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