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Tags Catalonia incidents , Catalonia issues , independence movements , separatist movements , Spain incidents , Spain issues , Spain politics

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Old 4th October 2017, 12:58 AM   #161
Abooga
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The only thing these pro-independence parties have going for them is the behavior of Spanish police towards people trying to vote in the referendum. That was uncalled for and must be sanctioned to the fullest extent of the law.

Beyond that they're no better than Antonio Tejero and his gang of failures. They usurped power above and beyond what was granted to them by illegal and unconstitutional means. No democracy can tollerate that and expect to remain a democracy.

McHrozni
Iīm not versed in law, but I seem to recall that is Spain the law is very little specific in regards to the extent in which the police can apply violence. It only says as much as "it will have to be proportional" or some such thing, when in other countries there are more precise laws that put some kind of limits to what the police can do, I guess limiting violent attacks to peaceful protesters etc. Perhaps somebody more knowledgable than me can explain it better or correct me.

The fact is that at the moment pro-Catalans are accusing the government of applying an unproportional amount of force, and the government says it was proportional... all matter of interpretation of the stupidly broad law, which solves nothing.
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Old 4th October 2017, 01:04 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
It has been reported that the 100,000 people crowd at a Real Madrid game waved Spanish flags and called for national unity. Spaniards are reluctant to give Catalans their independence. It is not only a thing of the political elite, it is quite much a national attitude. With exceptions, but these exceptions appear to be a minority. So there will be a remarkable confrontation of willpower, the majority of Spaniards vs. Catalans.
Well, we still have a King, and Catholicism is is still alive and well, what do you expect from a society such as this? Many donīt have a concept of citizenship, they still think of the provinces as lands obtained by conquest and "property" of the kingdom. The pretension that a referendum could break the "unity of Spain" is unthinkable.
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:10 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Iīm not versed in law, but I seem to recall that is Spain the law is very little specific in regards to the extent in which the police can apply violence. It only says as much as "it will have to be proportional" or some such thing, when in other countries there are more precise laws that put some kind of limits to what the police can do, I guess limiting violent attacks to peaceful protesters etc. Perhaps somebody more knowledgable than me can explain it better or correct me.

The fact is that at the moment pro-Catalans are accusing the government of applying an unproportional amount of force, and the government says it was proportional... all matter of interpretation of the stupidly broad law, which solves nothing.
You have videos of old ladies bleeding from wounds inflicted by the Spanish police. That is a disproportional amount of force.

Of course much, perhaps most of the blame rests with Catalan authorities which pressed on with an illegal action that violated their own rules on many points. That does not mean the Spanish police can be let off easy.

This isn't some bleeding heart issue, it's an issue of credibility and resolving the question for a meaningful while. If Spain punishes those among their forces that, in the eyes of the public, made the referendum a much more violent affar than it necessary, it can afford to come down harshly on the putchists (I think the term is quite appropriate) in Catalan authorities without appearing hypocritical. If it punishes those in their own ranks first the putchists have no recourse and no moral high ground.

Of course Spain could also opt for the easy way out, claim it's all proportional and go only after the putchists. But that will just kick the can down the road for a couple of years until the next time someone thinks Catalonian independence can win him a safe retirement.

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Old 4th October 2017, 02:29 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You have videos of old ladies bleeding from wounds inflicted by the Spanish police. That is a disproportional amount of force.
They were illegally breaking the holy unity of Spain, it is claimed, the police issued enough warnings etc. So it is not viewed as disproportional by Spanish right-wingers.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Of course Spain could also opt for the easy way out, claim it's all proportional and go only after the putchists.
McHrozni
Thatīs exactly what they are doing. Looking at their track record, it is to be expected. When Franco died and we transitioned into this "sort of" Democracy, they didnīt make the necessary changes in the Police corps, army etc. so who can be surprised?
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:40 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
They were illegally breaking the holy unity of Spain, it is claimed, the police issued enough warnings etc. So it is not viewed as disproportional by Spanish right-wingers.

Thatīs exactly what they are doing. Looking at their track record, it is to be expected. When Franco died and we transitioned into this "sort of" Democracy, they didnīt make the necessary changes in the Police corps, army etc. so who can be surprised?
Is this likely to restore Catalan support for union with Castile?
Catalan Police chief Josep Lluis Trapero is to be investigated for sedition by the National High Court in Madrid, El Espaņol reported on Wednesday morning.

The newspaper said the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly, Jordi Sánchez, and Ōmnium Cultural, Jordi Cuixart, will be investigated for the same crime.

El Confidencial reported all three men must appear before the judge in Madrid on Friday.
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:43 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Very good summary of the legal background of the issue.

What do you think is going to happen? Iīm still amazed at all this crazyness. I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, whatīs your take?
First things first: Firefox sucks.

Ok. I feel better now.

Yes, I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, but I would say that what the pro independence leaders are doing is worse. They've been ignoring at least half the population of Catalonia in their challenge to the Spanish laws and the constitution and now they're fueling disobedience.

Once you get to this point, there's no turning back. Or is there?

This is a poker game. I can't see the cards. The pro independence leaders must (should) be scared. They most likely have the losing hand. There are two options: UDI or lower the demands up to a point where there's something to discuss. With the first option, it will get ugly. You only expect to win sufficient support as it gets ugly and people have no other option than to chose sides. With the second one, they will be seen as traitors by many people who want independence and who really believe in this "process" (as you know, we call it "El Procés").

And what worries me most: nationalism. We are at a point that, no matter what we do, a lot of Catalans will hate Spain and a lot of people from the rest of Spain will hate Catalans for not wanting to be Spanish the way they want. Everything is becoming more and more binary. Congratulations for the victory of irrationality.

Last edited by Dani; 4th October 2017 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:47 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You have videos of old ladies bleeding from wounds inflicted by the Spanish police. That is a disproportional amount of force.

Of course much, perhaps most of the blame rests with Catalan authorities which pressed on with an illegal action that violated their own rules on many points. That does not mean the Spanish police can be let off easy.

This isn't some bleeding heart issue, it's an issue of credibility and resolving the question for a meaningful while. If Spain punishes those among their forces that, in the eyes of the public, made the referendum a much more violent affar than it necessary, it can afford to come down harshly on the putchists (I think the term is quite appropriate) in Catalan authorities without appearing hypocritical. If it punishes those in their own ranks first the putchists have no recourse and no moral high ground.

Of course Spain could also opt for the easy way out, claim it's all proportional and go only after the putchists. But that will just kick the can down the road for a couple of years until the next time someone thinks Catalonian independence can win him a safe retirement.

McHrozni
Congratulations on abandoning your previous baloney deceit that this has anything to do with the wishes of the Catalan people. That was never in the least convincing. This holy Falangism you're now spouting is much more credible as an expression of your belief system.
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:50 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Is this likely to restore Catalan support for union with Castile?
Catalan Police chief Josep Lluis Trapero is to be investigated for sedition by the National High Court in Madrid, El Espaņol reported on Wednesday morning.

The newspaper said the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly, Jordi Sánchez, and Ōmnium Cultural, Jordi Cuixart, will be investigated for the same crime.

El Confidencial reported all three men must appear before the judge in Madrid on Friday.
Well, what else can they do, if he supposedly disobeyed direct orders? Give him a medal?
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Old 4th October 2017, 02:56 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Dani View Post
First things first: Firefox sucks.

Ok. I feel better now.

Yes, I think both sides are acting irresponsibly and wrong, but I would say that what the pro independence leaders are doing is worse. They've been ignoring at least half the population of Catalonia in their challenge to the Spanish laws and the constitution and now they're fueling disobedience.

Once you get to this point, there's no turning back. Or is there?

This is a poker game. I can't see the cards. The pro independence leaders must (should) be scared. They most likely have the losing hand. There are two options: UDI or lower the demands up to a point where there's something to discuss. With the first option, it will get ugly. You only expect to win sufficient support as it gets ugly and people have no other option than to chose sides. With the second one, they will be seen as traitors by many people who want independence and who really believe in this "process" (as you know, we call it "El Procés").

And what worries me most: nationalism. We are at a point that, no matter what we do, a lot of Catalans will hate Spain and a lot of people from the rest of Spain will hate Catalans for not wanting to be Spanish the way they want. Everything is becoming more and more binary. Congratulations for the victory of irrationality.
Completely agree. Nationalism is ugly, Catalan, Spanish, Basque... all of them. The only defence for independentists IMO can come from a challenge of the legitimacy of the Spanish state, which can be reasoned to some degree. Well, at least in the Basque Country the majority didnīt vote the Constitution, in Catalonia they did, so itīs harder for them to challenge it...

Last edited by Abooga; 4th October 2017 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 4th October 2017, 03:04 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Well, what else can they do, if he supposedly disobeyed direct orders? Give him a medal?
What "direct orders" did the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly disobey?
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Old 4th October 2017, 03:10 AM   #171
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The worst is the social climate. Not only in Spain, but especially in Catalonia. Today:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/local/ba...barcelona.html

Nothing serious, but unfortunately I expect much more, and worse, to come.

I'm really sad.
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Old 4th October 2017, 03:18 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Congratulations on abandoning your previous baloney deceit that this has anything to do with the wishes of the Catalan people. That was never in the least convincing. This holy Falangism you're now spouting is much more credible as an expression of your belief system.
It also has to do with the wishes of the Catalan people.

All of them, including the ~50% who, by all accounts, don't want to live in an independent Catalonia and perfer to live in Spain.

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Old 4th October 2017, 03:35 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It also has to do with the wishes of the Catalan people.

All of them, including the ~50% who, by all accounts, don't want to live in an independent Catalonia and perfer to live in Spain.

McHrozni
If you want "all accounts" of the wishes of the people of Catalonia, what should you do? Hold a referendum of course. But you call that "putschism". We have disagreed about political definitions before. The Oxford Dictionary defines "putsch" as
A violent attempt to overthrow a government; a coup.
The Catalan referendum was not "violent" and it was not an "attempt to overthrow a government" so it fails both elements of the definition.
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Old 4th October 2017, 03:54 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What "direct orders" did the chairmen of the Catalan National Assembly disobey?
What chairman? You mentioned a disciplinary action against the Police Chief.

ETA: Ok I didnīt see the second bit about the chairman. I donīt have an opinion about that just yet..
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Old 4th October 2017, 04:28 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is not being reported is how the Spanish Public outside of Catalan is reacting to this.
Who cares? Should we worry about the KKK protesting Civil Rights? Let's recall the facts here: a permanent majority, fresh off of forty long years of cultural repression, then another forty doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula (ahem, hello, Portugal), is claiming that it, as permanent majority, has eternal say over the affairs of an ethnic minority.

As for the vote results:

Grab a chunk of someone's land. By force. Kill, left and right, as you implement a fascist overthrow of democratic government. Enslave thousands after the war to erect a large cross under which to bury the slave labor bones and celebrate Castilian Catholicism. Actively push your own people to settle it. Resettle the bulk of new immigrant arrivals by busing them from the refugee boats to the center of Barcelona. Continue this and much other nonsense, for years, then say "the locals love me." Meanwhile, deny any and all attempts at historical reckoning, including disallowing finding and marking the mass graves.

A "democracy" not based on true universals, equitably shared and recognized, is a sham club for promoting ethnic privilege. Add some Opus Dei propaganda, sly and dirty, too. Spain today, learning as much as it can from the GOP, trailblazers in permanent fixes offering unfair access to power.
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:11 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Who cares? Should we worry about the KKK protesting Civil Rights? Let's recall the facts here: a permanent majority, fresh off of forty long years of cultural repression, then another forty doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula (ahem, hello, Portugal), is claiming that it, as permanent majority, has eternal say over the affairs of an ethnic minority.

As for the vote results:

Grab a chunk of someone's land. By force. Kill, left and right, as you implement a fascist overthrow of democratic government. Enslave thousands after the war to erect a large cross under which to bury the slave labor bones and celebrate Castilian Catholicism. Actively push your own people to settle it. Resettle the bulk of new immigrant arrivals by busing them from the refugee boats to the center of Barcelona. Continue this and much other nonsense, for years, then say "the locals love me." Meanwhile, deny any and all attempts at historical reckoning, including disallowing finding and marking the mass graves.

A "democracy" not based on true universals, equitably shared and recognized, is a sham club for promoting ethnic privilege. Add some Opus Dei propaganda, sly and dirty, too. Spain today, learning as much as it can from the GOP, trailblazers in permanent fixes offering unfair access to power.
Do you have any idea what youīre talking about? "doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula" Catalan and Basque are currently under positive discrimination in Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even the prevalent idea of Francoīs ban of regional languages is mostly a myth.

Iīm very critical of the Spanish monarchy and semi-fraudulent democracy, but you just spouted a lot of hyperbole with little basis on reality.
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Old 4th October 2017, 06:50 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It also has to do with the wishes of the Catalan people.

All of them, including the ~50% who, by all accounts, don't want to live in an independent Catalonia and perfer to live in Spain.

McHrozni
Around 30% have voted yes to independence. So calling it a coup is not such a stretch.
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Old 4th October 2017, 07:03 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Around 30% have voted yes to independence. So calling it a coup is not such a stretch.
Actually, 41%:
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It means that 97.10% of the 42.58% turnout (I looked up those numbers on wiki) are in favour of independence. And maybe some more.
Calling that a coup is a stretch. It indicates that there might be a majority in favour of independence. I hasten to add that I think that just a simple majority in favour of independence is a very small basis for that.
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Old 4th October 2017, 07:10 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Do you have any idea what youīre talking about? "doing anything it can to deny other languages and cultures even exist on the peninsula" Catalan and Basque are currently under positive discrimination in Catalonia and the Basque Country. Even the prevalent idea of Francoīs ban of regional languages is mostly a myth.

Iīm very critical of the Spanish monarchy and semi-fraudulent democracy, but you just spouted a lot of hyperbole with little basis on reality.
Yes, I do have an idea; I live here. I am, for example, keenly aware of the spate of court cases over the last two decades seeking to reverse the gains in linguistic autonomy made in the 1980s. In essence, the strategy is to claim discrimination against those not from region, insisting they be taught in another language. "Sure, teach both" is the refrain. Then you look at the budget allocated. Oops!

I was also here when Franco was alive, and got slapped around plenty by these same paramilitary goons. Catalan not repressed under Franco? Please. Why do you think I got slapped around? (Fun, though. When they found out I was a foreigner, and couldn't hide me in some dungeon for kicks, they were always seriously disappointed.) In fact, there was one sole pastry shop in the entire city of Barcelona during the 1960s, apparently somehow protected, that allowed itself to use a small "Open | Closed" sign on the door in Catalan. People from far and wide came to catch a little peek. Meanwhile, we all took camping trips up into Montserrat mountain, where there was some leeway owing to the presence of the Catholic Church (in this case, liberal Catalan monks, working on the edge).

Oh, and the busing of immigrants from all around the country into Catalonia can be found in recent news reports.

Been there, done that.
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Old 4th October 2017, 07:10 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Even the prevalent idea of Francoīs ban of regional languages is mostly a myth.
Which part of this account of Franco's policy do you regard as mythical?
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Old 4th October 2017, 07:46 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
It has been reported that the 100,000 people crowd at a Real Madrid game waved Spanish flags and called for national unity. Spaniards are reluctant to give Catalans their independence. It is not only a thing of the political elite, it is quite much a national attitude. With exceptions, but these exceptions appear to be a minority. So there will be a remarkable confrontation of willpower, the majority of Spaniards vs. Catalans.
That doesn't prove much about Spain as a whole, of course Royal Madrid fans from the heart of Castille don't want to see Spain break up. I doubt you'd see the same show in Vitoria-Gasteiz.
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Old 4th October 2017, 08:02 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Which part of this account of Franco's policy do you regard as mythical?
I refer to the extended belief that Catalan and Basque were banned. Most of my friends in the Basque Country believe it. I had to show a friend of mine my granpaīs collection of magazines published in Basque in the fifties. He wouldnīt believe they even existed. Iīm not saying Basque or Catalan werenīt sometimes frowned upon, and they werenīt taught in school, etc. (but neither before Franco. Only Catalan wast taught in School briefly during the Republic). Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests. Like the supposed conquest of Catalunya and the Basque Country by Spain, which never happened, but exists in the psyche of many people here.
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Old 4th October 2017, 08:20 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Actually, 41%:


Calling that a coup is a stretch. It indicates that there might be a majority in favour of independence. I hasten to add that I think that just a simple majority in favour of independence is a very small basis for that.
37.3%, so yes, I was a bit off, but then a lot of people seem to have voted twice (villages of 500 with 1000 results etc), so itīs a piece of **** referendum, whichever way you look at it. Should they repeat it? I donīt see why not, but with a near 50% support I donīt see the urgency.
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Old 4th October 2017, 08:41 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I refer to the extended belief that Catalan and Basque were banned. Most of my friends in the Basque Country believe it. I had to show a friend of mine my granpaīs collection of magazines published in Basque in the fifties. He wouldnīt believe they even existed. Iīm not saying Basque or Catalan werenīt sometimes frowned upon, and they werenīt taught in school, etc. (but neither before Franco. Only Catalan wast taught in School briefly during the Republic). Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests. Like the supposed conquest of Catalunya and the Basque Country by Spain, which never happened, but exists in the psyche of many people here.
Franco's suppression of these minority languages didn't extend to the banning of private use of them in people's homes. But the languages were the subject of serious discrimination and public suppression.

Catalunya was deprived of a Parliament after a siege and war in 1714. Thereafter Castilian institutions were imposed on it.

A proposed referendum organised by an elected regional parliament is not a "putsch".

Franco did indeed oppress Catalans (and others) culturally. He stifled all democracy. He did perform a putsch, which the Generalitat has not done.

If anyone says Franco forbade people to speak Catalan at home, that person is mistaken. But I have never said that. Argue with someone who does.

Franco committed crimes in abundance, and you are striving to find ways of excusing him. Why on Earth are you doing that? Is it a religious thing, or what? Please explain.

Last edited by Craig B; 4th October 2017 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 4th October 2017, 09:02 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Franco's suppression of these minority languages didn't extend to the banning of private use of them in people's homes. But the languages were the subject of serious discrimination and public suppression.

Catalunya was deprived of a Parliament after a siege and war in 1714. Thereafter Castilian institutions were imposed on it.

A proposed referendum organised by an elected regional parliament is not a "putsch".

Franco did indeed oppress Catalans (and others) culturally. He stifled all democracy. He did perform a putsch, which the Generalitat has not done.

If anyone says Franco forbade people to speak Catalan at home, that person is mistaken. But I have never said that. Argue with someone who does.

Franco committed crimes in abundance, and you are striving to find ways of excusing him. Why on Earth are you doing that? Is it a religious thing, or what? Please explain.
What? Iīm not excusing Franco! May he rot in hell! But lying solves nothing, and some nationalists are using lies and distortions. Thatīs all Iīm saying.
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Old 4th October 2017, 09:23 AM   #186
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
What? Iīm not excusing Franco! May he rot in hell! But lying solves nothing, and some nationalists are using lies and distortions. Thatīs all Iīm saying.
Thank you. I am reassured by that.

It must of course be true that some nationalists are using lies and distortions, because these are common political activities. Some centralists are using them too, we may have no doubt. But what you wrote previously was this:
Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests
which is a much more radical statement.
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Old 4th October 2017, 09:47 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
37.3%,
No, 97.10% * 42.58% = 41.35%.

Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
so yes, I was a bit off,
30% vs. 41% is more than "a bit off".

Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
but then a lot of people seem to have voted twice (villages of 500 with 1000 results etc),
[ citation required ]

Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
so itīs a piece of **** referendum, whichever way you look at it. Should they repeat it? I donīt see why not, but with a near 50% support I donīt see the urgency.
It does raise the question whether there's a majority for independence - that's not just a hypothetical. As to urgency, first of all it's needed that parties cool down. Felipe's speech only threw more flames on the fire, that didn't sound at all like a king who actually embraces all his citizens, more like his 16th Century namesake.
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Old 4th October 2017, 09:59 AM   #188
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It has been suggested that the experience so far has been a bit like Ireland 1916, where UK brutalities served to increase the support for independence, not a majority sentiment, as far as is believed, at Easter 1916.

Will the next step be a General Election? This clarified the issue of support for independence in Ireland. Could a similar exercise help to resolve the Catalan constitutional issue? The Spanish equivalent of the Black and TansWP must be kept well away from the process, needless to say.
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Old 4th October 2017, 10:03 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Thank you. I am reassured by that.

It must of course be true that some nationalists are using lies and distortions, because these are common political activities. Some centralists are using them too, we may have no doubt. But what you wrote previously was this:
Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests
which is a much more radical statement.
Centralists are also nationalists. I despise them all. However, living in the Basque Country Iīm more exposed to the BS of the local fanatics.

This issue wouldnīt such a problem if people didnīt have such religious feelings towards their idea of the "nation" and would be more pragmatic. Spaniards with "the unity of Spain" and Catalans with the "unity of Catalunya", because have no doubt that if one of the Catalan provinces wanted to seceed from "New Catalunya", they would be proclaiming the sanctity of the unity of Catalunya.
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Old 4th October 2017, 10:14 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Centralists are also nationalists. I despise them all. However, living in the Basque Country Iīm more exposed to the BS of the local fanatics.

This issue wouldnīt such a problem if people didnīt have such religious feelings towards their idea of the "nation" and would be more pragmatic. Spaniards with "the unity of Spain" and Catalans with the "unity of Catalunya", because have no doubt that if one of the Catalan provinces wanted to seceed from "New Catalunya", they would be proclaiming the sanctity of the unity of Catalunya.
As a yes supporter in the 2014 Scottish Indyref I'm familiar with that argument.

I reply as I did then. Please leave that issue for an independent Scotland to deal with. During the Union, there was an official definition of the area included in Scotland, agreed by all. If it hadn't been satisfactory, Westminster had 290 years to amend it, and did not. Now Westminster is worried about the integrity of this area? Please be at ease. If any problems arise following independence, they will be dealt with through democratic consensus.

But none have appeared up to now. Since the autonomous parliament has been in existence, no Scottish region has renounced that Parliament, and asked for the return of pre-1997 Westminster centralism.
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Old 4th October 2017, 10:52 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Centralists are also nationalists. I despise them all. However, living in the Basque Country Iīm more exposed to the BS of the local fanatics.

This issue wouldnīt such a problem if people didnīt have such religious feelings towards their idea of the "nation" and would be more pragmatic. Spaniards with "the unity of Spain" and Catalans with the "unity of Catalunya", because have no doubt that if one of the Catalan provinces wanted to seceed from "New Catalunya", they would be proclaiming the sanctity of the unity of Catalunya.

And what, pray tell, would you replace the central government of Spain with.
?
And Patriotism is not going away any time soon.

I can't figure out what you want.


And do you consider the UK a "fake democracy" because it has a Monarch?
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Old 4th October 2017, 11:31 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
A proposed referendum organised by an elected regional parliament is not a "putsch".
Not by itself, no. This is not all that happened however.

But a carrying out such a referendum, with the full knowledge you're violating the constitution, violating your own rulebooks in the process, ignoring the opposition who is telling you not to do it and promising to declare independence within 48 hours of a plurality yes vote, as the Catalan authorities have all done, amounts to a putsch.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/putsch

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Old 5th October 2017, 12:22 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Not by itself, no. This is not all that happened however.

But a carrying out such a referendum, with the full knowledge you're violating the constitution, violating your own rulebooks in the process, ignoring the opposition who is telling you not to do it and promising to declare independence within 48 hours of a plurality yes vote, as the Catalan authorities have all done, amounts to a putsch.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/putsch

McHrozni
a plotted revolt or attempt to overthrow a government, especially one that depends upon suddenness and speed.
Nonsense, even by your dictionary definition. It was not "plotted", was not an "attempt to overthrow a government", was not a "revolt", was not "sudden" and did not depend on "speed". Total definition fail.

Franco tried to take power through a putsch in 1936. He attempted to overthrow the Republic. The Catalan experience has been a completely different thing: a measured electoral process of secession by a region of a state. No plot, no tevolt, no attempt to overthrow any government, nothing "sudden". It's been openly contemplated for many years, and has even been tested in a previous referendum. Think Norway, or Slovakia or Slovenia, or something even more protracted and public. You're describing Franco. Different thing. Nonsense. #Sad.
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Old 5th October 2017, 12:51 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Please leave that issue for an independent Scotland to deal with.
No, I canīt leave it. I live in the Basque Country and I canīt ignore that the local nationalists who are so against Spanish nationalists would behave in a similar way if they obtained their own state. For example in Alava, the southern province of the BC, independentistm is very low (16%) so if the BC secceeded it is not unthinkable that they may want to go back to Spain. Do we have to wait until the Basque State is a reality to ask whether theyīd be allowed to leave? Seriously?

What I mean is, what is the principle that weīd be applying here, that any region whose population democratically decides it can obtain independence? Thatīs the meme that Catalans are repeating lately, but when pushed, Iīve found that they say only a proper "nation" can decide such thing. But what is a nation? Who decides it? Wasnīt it just "democracy"? Now itīs something else too? It just sounds like theyīre using the same arguments as the ones proclaiming the unity of the nation of Spain...
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:00 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
a plotted revolt or attempt to overthrow a government, especially one that depends upon suddenness and speed.
Nonsense, even by your dictionary definition. It was not "plotted", was not an "attempt to overthrow a government", was not a "revolt", was not "sudden" and did not depend on "speed". Total definition fail.
If it wasn't plotted, was it random or something? It sought to replace the legal government of Catalonia with something they chose for themselves, how do you call that if not an overthrow? Sudden and speed are both present and I made a point to show them in the quote.

The only thing you can take issue with is a revolt. The pictures of the event do bear considerable resemblance to a revolt.

But go ahead, continue to assert nonsense if you want

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Old 5th October 2017, 02:01 AM   #196
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I don't think that it's Craig who is spouting nonsense here.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:01 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
No, I canīt leave it. I live in the Basque Country and I canīt ignore that the local nationalists who are so against Spanish nationalists would behave in a similar way if they obtained their own state. For example in Alava, the southern province of the BC, independentistm is very low (16%) so if the BC secceeded it is not unthinkable that they may want to go back to Spain. Do we have to wait until the Basque State is a reality to ask whether theyīd be allowed to leave? Seriously?

What I mean is, what is the principle that weīd be applying here, that any region whose population democratically decides it can obtain independence? Thatīs the meme that Catalans are repeating lately, but when pushed, Iīve found that they say only a proper "nation" can decide such thing. But what is a nation? Who decides it? Wasnīt it just "democracy"? Now itīs something else too? It just sounds like theyīre using the same arguments as the ones proclaiming the unity of the nation of Spain...
The Spanish unitary state has been defining the constituent parts of Catalonia since 1714. And its king was previously doing so in the same monarchical union. The British state has defined Scotland by Act of Parliament since 1707. And before that for nearly another century was in monarchical union. These states have had three hundred years of political control over the territories of the dependent regions.

Now there is a possibility of loss of central parliamentary rule, so they start worrying about what would happen if a bit of Scotland or of Catalonia wanted to break away from these countries. Well, in that event - and there is no sign of it - I hope the smaller countries would handle the matter peacefully and democratically.

In Scotland and Catalonia approximately half the people want independence and half don't. But nobody is demanding partition. The separatists aren't. The unionists aren't. The Central governments in Westminster and Madrid aren't. No part of Scotland or Catalonia is seeking it. And if in future Lerwick or Girona raises the question, that will be a matter for democratic administrations Edinburgh or Barcelona, and for the local people, not for riot police and arrest warrants, I hope. So be at ease as far as this issue is concerned.

However, it is common for Empires to impose partition on absconding provinces. To take the UK: it partitioned Ireland, Palestine, India. France partitioned Indo China, and was contemplating the same fate for Algeria. An old imperial strategy.

Last edited by Craig B; 5th October 2017 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:16 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If it wasn't plotted, was it random or something?
No it was the outcome of a public political process, not a plot.
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It sought to replace the legal government of Catalonia with something they chose for themselves, how do you call that if not an overthrow?
Go, on. You're pulling my leg, aren't you? This is pure satire. If it is unintentional on your part, it is an absolute gem, which I will keep and treasure forever.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:50 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
T Well, in that event - and there is no sign of it - I hope the smaller countries would handle the matter peacefully and democratically.
Of course there is sign of it. In the Basque Country, the exiting of Alava wouldnīt be too surprising, there have been voices that warned about it. In Catalonia, at the moment it doesnīt seem completely serious, but if the hypothetical indy Cataloniaīs economy went bad, it could well become a real thing:
http://www.bcnisnotcat.es/ Here they use the exact same arguments that Catalan secesionists use, in this case to ask for Barcelonaīs independence.
There are also towns near the border of Spain that have said theyīd ask to be out of Catalonia, and Aran, for whom there is provissions in the new Catalan constitution, having been recognised as a historical territory or whatever. Which makes me think those not recognised by the new Catalan constitution would find their democratic aspirations crushed by the Catalan state, exactly like Spain is doing right now. Because is it democracy or is it history what decides this? I ask again...

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Old 5th October 2017, 03:05 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No it was the outcome of a public political process, not a plot.
In the same sense as Julius Caesars' crossing of the Rubicon was a public plitical process, yeah.

Quote:
Go, on. You're pulling my leg, aren't you? This is pure satire. If it is unintentional on your part, it is an absolute gem, which I will keep and treasure forever.
Treasure it all you want, but if you're going to claim to be wrong you'll need to explain and provide evidence for who would lead the newly independent Catalonia if their independence guys had their way and that it wouldn't be them.

I wish you good luck in your quest.

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