ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Catalonia incidents , Catalonia issues , independence movements , separatist movements , Spain incidents , Spain issues , Spain politics

Reply
Old 5th October 2017, 05:22 AM   #201
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,433
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
In the same sense as Julius Caesars' crossing of the Rubicon was a public plitical process, yeah.
That was a military coup d'état. It was followed by a civil war. The events have nothing in common.
Quote:
Treasure it all you want, but if you're going to claim to be wrong you'll need to explain and provide evidence for who would lead the newly independent Catalonia if their independence guys had their way and that it wouldn't be them.

I wish you good luck in your quest.
I've no idea what any of that means, and I don't "claim to be wrong". I think there's a garble in there somewhere.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 05:31 AM   #202
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,555
Quote:
Of course there is sign of it. In the Basque Country, the exiting of Alava wouldn´t be too surprising, there have been voices that warned about it. In Catalonia, at the moment it doesn´t seem completely serious, but if the hypothetical indy Catalonia´s economy went bad, it could well become a real thing:
http://www.bcnisnotcat.es/ Here they use the exact same arguments that Catalan secesionists use, in this case to ask for Barcelona´s independence.
There are also towns near the border of Spain that have said they´d ask to be out of Catalonia, and Aran, for whom there is provissions in the new Catalan constitution, having been recognised as a historical territory or whatever. Which makes me think those not recognised by the new Catalan constitution would find their democratic aspirations crushed by the Catalan state, exactly like Spain is doing right now. Because is it democracy or is it history what decides this? I ask again...
With respect, that canard was used by the Unionists here during IndyRef #1 to suggest that Orkney and/or Shetland were likely to secede from Scotland (and hence, one was to infer, take the oilfields with them). Inasmuch as there is no strong secessionist movement in the northern isles, this was considered with some bemusement by most people I know and certainly received little coverage in the Scottish press as a consequence.

I posted a discussion of the international legal definition of statehood at that point, which unfortuantely I don't have time to track down now, however my recollection is that the UN required the territory in question to have:

1.a permanent population

2. defined territory

3. a government

4. the capacity to enter into treaties, etc. with other states.

Now if one was to take Scotland as an example, we satisfy the tests of (1) and (2) in their entirety, and a significant part of (3) inasmuch as we have a parliament with control over a wide range of issues including entirely seperate legal and educational systems. It is a recognised entiry, not least as it was previously independent nation. It would therefore be a modest leap to full statehood.

Shetland, on the other hand, only has (1) and (2) only (i.e. beyond local government and cleaning out the bins level). They would have a lot further to go to support an argument for statehood.

My undertanding, possibly flawed, is that the Catelan devolved government enjoys a significant level of devolution, although this may fall slightly short of the Scottish situation, and therefore can make similar arguments. Barcelona, however, fails the test for similar reasons to (say) Lerwick or Kirkwall (albeit with the advantage of a substantial population).
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 05:41 AM   #203
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,477
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That was a military coup d'état. It was followed by a civil war. The events have nothing in common.
Yes, I'm sure there are no similarities whatsoever between two illegal usurpations of authority, because one was followed by a civil war and the other one wasn't

Keep up the good work, you're almost entertaining!

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 06:03 AM   #204
Abooga
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
With respect, that canard was used by the Unionists here during IndyRef #1 to suggest that Orkney and/or Shetland were likely to secede from Scotland (and hence, one was to infer, take the oilfields with them). Inasmuch as there is no strong secessionist movement in the northern isles, this was considered with some bemusement by most people I know and certainly received little coverage in the Scottish press as a consequence.

I posted a discussion of the international legal definition of statehood at that point, which unfortuantely I don't have time to track down now, however my recollection is that the UN required the territory in question to have:

1.a permanent population

2. defined territory

3. a government

4. the capacity to enter into treaties, etc. with other states.

Now if one was to take Scotland as an example, we satisfy the tests of (1) and (2) in their entirety, and a significant part of (3) inasmuch as we have a parliament with control over a wide range of issues including entirely seperate legal and educational systems. It is a recognised entiry, not least as it was previously independent nation. It would therefore be a modest leap to full statehood.

Shetland, on the other hand, only has (1) and (2) only (i.e. beyond local government and cleaning out the bins level). They would have a lot further to go to support an argument for statehood.

My undertanding, possibly flawed, is that the Catelan devolved government enjoys a significant level of devolution, although this may fall slightly short of the Scottish situation, and therefore can make similar arguments. Barcelona, however, fails the test for similar reasons to (say) Lerwick or Kirkwall (albeit with the advantage of a substantial population).
First thing, since you´re quoting the UN, we should remember that it does not support Catalan independentism, it doesn´t recognise the legitimacy of the referendum, would not allow Catalonia back in the UN etc. And Spain would fulfill those requirements better than Catalonia anyway, but then, if a large majority of Catalans wanted out (which is not the case, but if they did) wouldn´t it be fair to let them?

I haven´t seen those "requirements" mentioned anywhere in the current media coverage, all they seem to be repeating is "Catalans want to vote, voting is democratic, Spain is fascist because it doesn´t allow a democratic referendum " etc. etc. So the only requirement that seems to be waived so far is that of the will of the people. Which is fine and all, but I´d like it to be more concretely explained and defined. Who says Catalonia has a government and Barcelona doesn´t? How do you define what a nation is?

I mean, if you have a region with a large majority of citizens who wish to form their own nation, who says whether they fulfill the necessary requirements if not themselves? Why should they accept the legitimacy of some outside power to dictate whether they do, in opposition to that large majority?

Last edited by Abooga; 5th October 2017 at 06:30 AM.
Abooga is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 06:56 AM   #205
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,393
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
With respect, that canard was used by the Unionists here during IndyRef #1 to suggest that Orkney and/or Shetland were likely to secede from Scotland (and hence, one was to infer, take the oilfields with them). Inasmuch as there is no strong secessionist movement in the northern isles, this was considered with some bemusement by most people I know and certainly received little coverage in the Scottish press as a consequence.

I posted a discussion of the international legal definition of statehood at that point, which unfortuantely I don't have time to track down now, however my recollection is that the UN required the territory in question to have:

1.a permanent population

2. defined territory

3. a government

4. the capacity to enter into treaties, etc. with other states.

Now if one was to take Scotland as an example, we satisfy the tests of (1) and (2) in their entirety, and a significant part of (3) inasmuch as we have a parliament with control over a wide range of issues including entirely seperate legal and educational systems. It is a recognised entiry, not least as it was previously independent nation. It would therefore be a modest leap to full statehood.

Shetland, on the other hand, only has (1) and (2) only (i.e. beyond local government and cleaning out the bins level). They would have a lot further to go to support an argument for statehood.

My undertanding, possibly flawed, is that the Catelan devolved government enjoys a significant level of devolution, although this may fall slightly short of the Scottish situation, and therefore can make similar arguments. Barcelona, however, fails the test for similar reasons to (say) Lerwick or Kirkwall (albeit with the advantage of a substantial population).
These four criteria were codified in the 1933 Montevideo Convention, a treaty between 16 American countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention
It only restated existing customary international law. And it's obviously pre UN.

I think the criterion "government" is customarily understood with the qualification that said government has actual control over the administration. A mere gremium of honorable elders signing declarations that no one executes might call itself "government", but wouldn't be one under the Montevideo Convention.

Sent from mobile phone through Tapatalk
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 06:59 AM   #206
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,433
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, I'm sure there are no similarities whatsoever between two illegal usurpations of authority, because one was followed by a civil war and the other one wasn't

Keep up the good work, you're almost entertaining!

McHrozni
Even more entertaining are the results of the referendum Caesar held when he crossed the Rubicon, or General Puigdemont stating, alea iacta est before crossing the Tagus with his legions and occupying Madrid.

No similarities.

Last edited by Craig B; 5th October 2017 at 07:02 AM.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 10:32 AM   #207
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,646
One guy is really happy about this mess:

Vladimir Putin. Another European Democracy Destablized.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 11:25 AM   #208
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,555
I'll be damned if I can find my original post, which included quite a bit of reading-up and the like. Must be old age. Ah well......

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
These four criteria were codified in the 1933 Montevideo Convention, a treaty between 16 American countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention
It only restated existing customary international law. And it's obviously pre UN.
Yes, it was Montevideo and you are correct in that it was a restatement of existing international law. To the best of my knowledge, which is admittedly limited in this respect, it remains the current primary definition of a state and is therefore relevant.

Quote:
I think the criterion "government" is customarily understood with the qualification that said government has actual control over the administration. A mere gremium of honorable elders signing declarations that no one executes might call itself "government", but wouldn't be one under the Montevideo Convention.
Agreed and hence my comments about the difference between a substantially devolved government such as Holyrood as opposed to local authorites such as Shetland. Hence for the former to step up to the "national government" mark is much less of a leap than for the latter.

One of the problems, of course, is that the principal test of statehood is really whether other countries are willing to recognise the nation/state. It would, I imagine, be possible to have a de facto state (Eritrea prior to independence from Ethiopia) as opposed to a de jure state (Eritrea after the 1993 Referendum and independence.

The UN declaration doesn't help, alas. It notes that peoples have the right to self determination but then goes on to state that anything seeking to undermine a member state territory is against the spirit of the organisation. This rather flies in the face of examples such as the former SSRs, Eritrea, East Timor (now there's a real argument), and so on.

I think the particular problem is for those regions (former sovereign nations or otherwise) where a substantial proportion of the population are likely to support independence but a national government (such as Madrid) take great offence. If it requires the mother state to always agree to the vote and subsequent independence then there is little or no hope for a peaceful breakaway in some cases.

And to be honest, anyone who flings around silly terms like seperatist or independentist (that's never a real word, surely) isn't really engaging with the actual political or legal issues at a sensible level.
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 11:31 AM   #209
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,555
Quote doesn't seem to be working for me on Firefox, so excuse me breaking ceonvention.

Quote:
First thing, since you´re quoting the UN, we should remember that it does not support Catalan independentism, it doesn´t recognise the legitimacy of the referendum, would not allow Catalonia back in the UN etc.
Link?

Quote:
And Spain would fulfill those requirements better than Catalonia anyway, but then, if a large majority of Catalans wanted out (which is not the case, but if they did) wouldn´t it be fair to let them?
Spain would obviously fit those requirements, since it's already a de jure nation state, hence I don't see your point I'm afraid.

Quote:
I haven´t seen those "requirements" mentioned anywhere in the current media coverage, all they seem to be repeating is "Catalans want to vote, voting is democratic, Spain is fascist because it doesn´t allow a democratic referendum " etc. etc. So the only requirement that seems to be waived so far is that of the will of the people. Which is fine and all, but I´d like it to be more concretely explained and defined. Who says Catalonia has a government and Barcelona doesn´t? How do you define what a nation is?
As others have pointed out, there are legal discussions around what constitutes a government. It clearly doesn't allow you to call the local parish council a government in any meaningful sense, whereas the (say) Scottish Parliament does have substantial powers including the (largely unexercised) ability to raise some taxes.

Quote:
I mean, if you have a region with a large majority of citizens who wish to form their own nation, who says whether they fulfill the necessary requirements if not themselves? Why should they accept the legitimacy of some outside power to dictate whether they do, in opposition to that large majority?
They don't. They can be, for example, like Somaliland which is a de facto but not a de jure state. Kurdistan is in the same boat in some areas. Truth be told, however, assuming you want international trade and the like then you really need to get the de jure status.
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 11:42 AM   #210
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,646
The EU seems to be keeping a low profile on this;probably because it does not want to be seen as taking sides,since that would hurt them coming forward as a neutral "honest broker" later.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 01:08 PM   #211
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,666
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
<snip>

And to be honest, anyone who flings around silly terms like seperatist or independentist (that's never a real word, surely) isn't really engaging with the actual political or legal issues at a sensible level.

That word didn't settle well with me, either. But due to an abundance of caution only belatedly learned from repeatedly putting my foot in my mouth about unfamiliar usages in the past, I decided to look it up before I made any comment.

After breaking free of what was promising to become an extended wiki-walk through the history and laws of England's several civil wars, I emerged enlightened.

Not only is it a real word, but it is one which has a background several centuries old.

And (purely coincidentally, I'm sure) one whose roots are closely tied to early sovereignty conflicts between Scotland and England.

Whoda thunk it?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."

Last edited by quadraginta; 5th October 2017 at 01:10 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 01:14 PM   #212
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,555
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not only is it a real word, but it is one which has a background several centuries old.
Putting the E back into JREF, or whatever we call ourselves this week....although I think this might fall into the category of some of the more obscure, rarely if ever used words only used by the Scrabblers amongst us!
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 09:44 PM   #213
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
No, I can´t leave it. I live in the Basque Country and I can´t ignore that the local nationalists who are so against Spanish nationalists would behave in a similar way if they obtained their own state. For example in Alava, the southern province of the BC, independentistm is very low (16%) so if the BC secceeded it is not unthinkable that they may want to go back to Spain. Do we have to wait until the Basque State is a reality to ask whether they´d be allowed to leave? Seriously?

What I mean is, what is the principle that we´d be applying here, that any region whose population democratically decides it can obtain independence? That´s the meme that Catalans are repeating lately, but when pushed, I´ve found that they say only a proper "nation" can decide such thing. But what is a nation? Who decides it? Wasn´t it just "democracy"? Now it´s something else too? It just sounds like they´re using the same arguments as the ones proclaiming the unity of the nation of Spain...
This is a real issue. Yugoslavia originated from slavs gaining independence from the auto-hungrian and ottoman empires (cf Kurdistan) this independent country split up. How unitary do modern countries need to be? Look at this map of the Netherlands and Belgium!
Parts of Belgium are inside parts of the Netherlands inside Belgium.
http://www.exclave.eu/index.php?opti...id=4&Itemid=10
Part of Catalan is entirely within France.
Certainly what is modern Catalan territory is Historically the Kingdom of Aragon, only a small part is historically the County of Catalonia. I find it hard to find a reference to an independent Catalan state in history, it seems principally to have been part of either the kingdom of the Franks or Aragon. That there has never been an independent nation state of Catalan does not mean that if there is a self defined Catalan ethnic group they should not be allowed to become a nation. However, there is no longer the need for such a nation to be in continuity, each household or community can decide on remaining part of Spain or becoming part of the new nation. This actually has an advantage for the independence campaign as it makes it difficult for the EU to effectively exclude the new state from the EU.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 10:35 PM   #214
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,433
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I find it hard to find a reference to an independent Catalan state in history, it seems principally to have been part of either the kingdom of the Franks or Aragon.
States can exist within broader monarchical unions. I have found useful accounts in Principality of CataloniaWP and Catalan CourtsWP. It is very obvious that a Catalan polity existed for centuries until its suppression in 1714. It was usually in monarchical union with other parts of Aragon. This resembles the situation in Scotland during the Union of the Crowns. Between 1603 and 1707 Scotland and England had a common monarch, but separate Parliaments. Scotland's loss of independence dates from the closure of that Parliament, not from the installation of the common monarchy.

The BBC history page explains
James was king of Scotland until 1603, when he became the first Stuart king of England as well, creating the kingdom of Great Britain.
Great Britain had a single monarch, but it was two countries, with two parliaments, currencies, and weights and measures, until 1707. Aragon appears to have been a similar entity until 1714, with the added complexity that Aragon itself was in a further monarchical union with Castile.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2017, 11:57 PM   #215
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
States can exist within broader monarchical unions. I have found useful accounts in Principality of CataloniaWP and Catalan CourtsWP. It is very obvious that a Catalan polity existed for centuries until its suppression in 1714. It was usually in monarchical union with other parts of Aragon. This resembles the situation in Scotland during the Union of the Crowns. Between 1603 and 1707 Scotland and England had a common monarch, but separate Parliaments. Scotland's loss of independence dates from the closure of that Parliament, not from the installation of the common monarchy.

The BBC history page explains
James was king of Scotland until 1603, when he became the first Stuart king of England as well, creating the kingdom of Great Britain.
Great Britain had a single monarch, but it was two countries, with two parliaments, currencies, and weights and measures, until 1707. Aragon appears to have been a similar entity until 1714, with the added complexity that Aragon itself was in a further monarchical union with Castile.
There was never a Catalan Kingdom in the way there was a Scots Kingdom, perhaps a better analogy would be the relationship within the Kingdom of Scotland with the Lairdship of the Isles. One could see the Gàidhealtachd arguing for an independence vote from an independent Scotland. The basis for ethnicity seems strongly linguistic with a consequent separate culture. Clearly history is very important in these issues, the principal reason for the division between England and Scotland seems to be the limit of the Roman empire.

That there was or was not a historical Catalan Kingdom should not preclude possible independence. I am uneasy about claims that some group of people are intrinsically more virtuous than others this seems to me to verge on racist ideology. That there is some intrinsic virtue that sets one group of people as different from another is a dangerous argument.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 12:34 AM   #216
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,450
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is a real issue. Yugoslavia originated from slavs gaining independence from the auto-hungrian and ottoman empires (cf Kurdistan) this independent country split up. How unitary do modern countries need to be? Look at this map of the Netherlands and Belgium!
Parts of Belgium are inside parts of the Netherlands inside Belgium.
http://www.exclave.eu/index.php?opti...id=4&Itemid=10
Part of Catalan is entirely within France.
Certainly what is modern Catalan territory is Historically the Kingdom of Aragon, only a small part is historically the County of Catalonia. I find it hard to find a reference to an independent Catalan state in history, it seems principally to have been part of either the kingdom of the Franks or Aragon. That there has never been an independent nation state of Catalan does not mean that if there is a self defined Catalan ethnic group they should not be allowed to become a nation. However, there is no longer the need for such a nation to be in continuity, each household or community can decide on remaining part of Spain or becoming part of the new nation. This actually has an advantage for the independence campaign as it makes it difficult for the EU to effectively exclude the new state from the EU.
Can we all get to decide which country our houses sit in or is that a privilege reserved for those who we decide we need to twist ourselves in knots over trying to deny the basic principles of self determination?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 12:40 AM   #217
Abooga
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Quote doesn't seem to be working for me on Firefox, so excuse me breaking ceonvention.
It works with my firefox...

Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Link?
There are plenty of sources in Spanish media. For example, a good summary:

https://politica.elpais.com/politica...22_964189.html

FROM "10 MYTHS AND LIES OF SECESSIONISM"

point 8. WE WOULD NOT LEAVE THE EU.

It is not true that an independent Catalonia would continue to be part of the European Union, as secessionism claims.

Since 2004, the successive presidents of the European Commission (who is the guardian and interpreter in the first instance of the Treaties), Romano Prodi, Jose Manuel Durão Barroso and Jean-Claude Juncker, have maintained the same thesis, with very few variations in their formulation: "If a territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State because that territory becomes an independent State, the Treaties can not continue to be applied to that part of the territory. And the new independent region becomes, by effect of its independence, in a third country ". That new state must "request the entrance again" if it wishes to be member.

This definition derives directly from the textuality of the Treaty on European Union (TEU). Article 52 mentions the 28 Member States of the Union, one by one and by its full name. It does not appear the one of Catalonia, so that its ascription to the European community derives from the fact to be part of the Kingdom of Spain. It is not that Catalonia was concerned with its expulsion from the community club; is that he would exclude himself from it.

However, in its Title I (the most constitutional one), the TEU obliges everyone in Article 1.2 to respect the constitutional order of each Member State and its territorial integrity, in the following terms: "The Union shall respect the equality of Member States with the Treaties and their national identity inherent in their constitutional structures ... and shall respect the essential functions of the State, in particular those which aim to guarantee their territorial integrity. " It is not a matter of derived legislation, nor regulation, nor optional, but of constitutional order.

So, if Catalonia were to become an independent State and wish to join the EU, this would not be automatic, but should apply for it, as provided for in Article 49 of the TEU, which should be validated by the 28 Member States, including Spain, something complicated, even more so if the separation were unilateral.

But to be a candidate must meet the two basic requirements set by that article. The first is to be "a European State"; the second, to be "a State that respects the democratic values" proclaimed in article 2, as recalled in an article of the prestigious exjurisconsulto of the European Council, Jean Claude Piris (Catalonia and the European Union, THE COUNTRY, 29/8/2015) .

If these values ​​were fulfilled, it would also have to be shown that the country constitutes "a European State". And to constitute a State, one must obtain international recognition. As Artur Mas acknowledged last March 25, "if no one recognizes you, independence is a disaster."

And the indisputable way for this recognition is the UN, the membership of it. For the UN to admit a new state, the Security Council must first recommend it (whose permanent members with the right to veto are France, not inclined to favor territorial ruptures and sensitized by issues such as that of Corsica or its own Catalan territories); and then approved by the General Assembly by a two-thirds majority.

The political minimization of these obstacles alluding to the capital importance of Catalonia for Europe and the imperative need that this has of that contrasts with the unanimity of the governments and European institutions against the fragmentation; with the problems that would give rise to the precedent of a secession for many Member States experiencing domestic centrifugal tensions; and with the very founding goal of the current EU to reconcile Europeans on such bases as the unaltered maintenance of the internal borders established after the Second World War.

And in response to the alleged "internal enlargement" concerning the alleged preservation by Catalans of their status as European citizens, the Commission has made it well established that only persons who are nationals of a Member State are citizens of the EU, according to Article 20 TFEU (C (2022) 3689 final, 30/5/2012).

The consolation prize would be the permanence in the euro. "In any case, Catalonia will be in the euro ... there are countries that are not in the EU and have euro, Catalonia will have it if you want," said Mas in September 2013. Not so. Being in the euro is part of the monetary union, and only the EU member states are admitted.

The substitute would be to use the euro: to create a currency of its own and to affix it to the European currency, but this mechanism, the currency board, requires a unanimous agreement (article 219.1 of the TUE) of the 28. And although it is the system used by Monaco , San Marino, the Vatican and Andorra, "is not suitable for diversified economies," according to the IMF. A substitute substitute would be used without agreement, which experts consider contrary to the Treaty. And it would also deprive banking institutions in Catalonia of the massive funding umbrella that the ECB deploys, which in the best case (having subsidiaries in the euro zone) could only award them symbolic support, such as those granted to third countries.


(translated by Google)
Abooga is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 01:29 AM   #218
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,433
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
There was never a Catalan Kingdom in the way there was a Scots Kingdom, perhaps a better analogy would be the relationship within the Kingdom of Scotland with the Lairdship of the Isles. One could see the Gàidhealtachd arguing for an independence vote from an independent Scotland. The basis for ethnicity seems strongly linguistic with a consequent separate culture. Clearly history is very important in these issues, the principal reason for the division between England and Scotland seems to be the limit of the Roman empire.

That there was or was not a historical Catalan Kingdom should not preclude possible independence. I am uneasy about claims that some group of people are intrinsically more virtuous than others this seems to me to verge on racist ideology. That there is some intrinsic virtue that sets one group of people as different from another is a dangerous argument.
Please read my post again. I have explained the relationship of Catalonia with parliaments and monarchs. It was indeed not a kingdom but part of a kingdom. A "principality" with a Parliament, in a monarchical union. It was not itself a kingdom, or for that matter a Republic, which independentists now want to establish. At the time of its loss of independence, Scotland, like Catalonia, was in a monarchical union. Previously, unlike Catalonia, it had been a free-standing kingdom.

The Roman Empire is not a historical issue in the case of the Scotland England division. There is a division between the generally lowland south of the island of Britain, and the more upland and cooler north. The Romans were less interested in the latter, and simply walled it off when their empire stopped expanding. Later, different polities evolved in these areas of different character.

The Gaelic language is not an issue either. As people have changed from speaking Gaelic to English, they have not thereby become less Scottish.

Please find any contributor who states that the Catalans are more virtuous than the Castilians, or that one ethnicity is in general more virtuous than another. Nobody has argued that. What has been argued is that one political arrangement can be better than another, as I am sure you will agree. Or that peaceful voters are better than police thugs who beat them up and confiscate their ballot papers, as I am sure you will also agree.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 01:44 AM   #219
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,477
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One guy is really happy about this mess:

Vladimir Putin. Another European Democracy Destablized.
I like to think he has a hand in this Catalonian 'uprising' thing. Perhaps in financing the leaders who are pushing for it, perhaps in other ways.

It's not so much because Spain is destabilized, but because Russia can point out to how hypocritical West is for allowing some secessions but not others.

I'll also point out how Putin dealt with issues like those facing Spain right now.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...5603333_-7.jpg

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 01:54 AM   #220
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,433
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I like to think he has a hand in this Catalonian 'uprising' thing ... Perhaps in financing the leaders ...
Dear me. Stalin also used to "like to think" evil foreigners had a hand in financing people for nefarious purposes. Like you he adduced no valid evidence, but at least he had torture chambers in which appropriate "confessions" could be fabricated. Do you even have that? Or are we simply to be told what you "like to think"?
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 02:29 AM   #221
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,666
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Architect
Quote doesn't seem to be working for me on Firefox, so excuse me breaking ceonvention.
It works with my firefox...
Firefox, for me at any rate, and I suspect this is what Architect is talking about, seems to erratically have some problem with the forum "Quote" function. This post of yours is an example. I couldn't quote it with the "quote" function.

It doesn't happen when I try the same post with other browsers like Chrome, but I likes me my Firefox so I put up with it.

It seems to be triggered by certain control characters, but I haven't been able to pin down any consistent bad actors. It never happens with a post free of web page links or extended alphanumeric characters.

It doesn't seem to be add-on related.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 02:31 AM   #222
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,393
The long google translation that Abooga posted errs in one important respect: neither recognition nor UN membership are required for a polity to be a state. If the EU were to negotiate and enter int treaties with a Catalonian government representing a defined territory and population, than this act would constitute all the evidence for statehood you'll ever need, regardless of outside recognition or UN membership.

Of course, that is not going to happen if Spain and, say, France don't want to, regardless of Frances status as veto power in the UNSC.

Sent from mobile phone through Tapatalk
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 02:42 AM   #223
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,477
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Dear me. Stalin also used to "like to think" evil foreigners had a hand in financing people for nefarious purposes. Like you he adduced no valid evidence, but at least he had torture chambers in which appropriate "confessions" could be fabricated. Do you even have that? Or are we simply to be told what you "like to think"?
I think I answered that in the initial post.

It would be par for the course for Putin. He supports and is supported by pretty much every despicable party in Europe already and these Catalan independence leaders fit the bill of Russian stooges perfectly.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/e...-putin-n718926

I would be shocked if FSB hadn't offered them help yet to be honest. The question should be whether they accepted it or not.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 03:16 AM   #224
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,433
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I think I answered that in the initial post.

It would be par for the course for Putin. He supports and is supported by pretty much every despicable party in Europe already and these Catalan independence leaders fit the bill of Russian stooges perfectly.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/e...-putin-n718926

I would be shocked if FSB hadn't offered them help yet to be honest. The question should be whether they accepted it or not.
Stalin also liked to think that his victims fit the bill of fascist imperialist stooges perfectly, and he had their confessions to prove it. What you got?

Well, maybe the accused didn't accept Nazi gold, but it was "objectively" the same as if they did, so they got nine grams of lead in their dome, once they had revealed the names of their accomplices.

After all, Stalin would have been shocked, to be honest, if his political rivals hadn't been offered help by the Nazis. They were despicable stooges anyway; so what the hell, better bump them off. That's what Uncle Joe liked to think.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 04:13 AM   #225
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,970
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Firefox, for me at any rate, and I suspect this is what Architect is talking about, seems to erratically have some problem with the forum "Quote" function. This post of yours is an example. I couldn't quote it with the "quote" function.

It doesn't happen when I try the same post with other browsers like Chrome, but I likes me my Firefox so I put up with it.

It seems to be triggered by certain control characters, but I haven't been able to pin down any consistent bad actors. It never happens with a post free of web page links or extended alphanumeric characters.

It doesn't seem to be add-on related.

I have this problem too but it's infrequent so I work round it. I just copy the post and quote it manually. It's sometimes an issue with the edit function as well but again I can manually copy the post and paste it into the edit box, then edit it.

I didn't realise there were specific features of particular posts that were causing the issue.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 04:26 AM   #226
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,687
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is a real issue. Yugoslavia originated from slavs gaining independence from the auto-hungrian and ottoman empires (cf Kurdistan) this independent country split up.
I'm now piqued to know what a "auto-hungrian empire" is. Is it an empire that gets hungry by itself?

More importantly, Serbia (and Montenegro) acquired independence from an actual power-wielding empire, while Macedonia was conquered by Serbia in the two Balkan wars, and Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina emerged as parts from the collapsing Austro-Hungarian Empire. Serbia used this to demand a leadership role within Yugoslavia, thus exacerbating tensions arising from other sources.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
How unitary do modern countries need to be? Look at this map of the Netherlands and Belgium!
Parts of Belgium are inside parts of the Netherlands inside Belgium.
http://www.exclave.eu/index.php?opti...id=4&Itemid=10
I'm really at a loss what the silly enclaves and exclaves in a small Dutch/Belgian town have to do with this. Yes, the issue goes back to ca. 1200 and has never been solved, and with the Benelux and the EU there is not really a problem anymore to solve.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Part of Catalan is entirely within France.
Certainly what is modern Catalan territory is Historically the Kingdom of Aragon, only a small part is historically the County of Catalonia. I find it hard to find a reference to an independent Catalan state in history, it seems principally to have been part of either the kingdom of the Franks or Aragon.
Maybe look better?
County of Barcelona:
Quote:
The County of Barcelona (Latin: Comitatus Barcinonensis) was originally a frontier region under the rule of the Carolingian dynasty. By the end of the 10th century, the Counts of Barcelona were de facto independent, hereditary rulers in constant warfare with the Islamic caliphate of Córdoba and its successor states. The counts, through marriage alliances and treaties, acquired the other Catalan counties and extended their influence along Occitania. Barcelona formed the nucleus of the emergent Principality of Catalonia.
Principality of Catalonia:
Quote:
The Principality of Catalonia (Catalan: Principat de Catalunya, Latin: Principatus Cathaloniæ, Occitan: Principautat de Catalonha, Spanish: Principado de Cataluña), is a historic territory and a medieval and early modern political entity and state in the northeastern Iberian Peninsula, mostly in Spain, with an adjoining portion in southern France.
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
That there has never been an independent nation state of Catalan
False. BTW, "nation state" is a bit of an anachronism in this context. That concept was only developed in the 19th century.
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
does not mean that if there is a self defined Catalan ethnic group they should not be allowed to become a nation. However, there is no longer the need for such a nation to be in continuity, each household or community can decide on remaining part of Spain or becoming part of the new nation. This actually has an advantage for the independence campaign as it makes it difficult for the EU to effectively exclude the new state from the EU.
The Catalans are a nation. Time and again, I'm appalled at the sloppy use of words like "nation" and "state"; proper use of these words is crucial in discussions like this one. With that in mind, would you like to rephrase the rest so I can actually understand what you're trying to say?
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 04:28 AM   #227
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,970
I don't know the Catalan independence movement intimately, but some people I do know went to Catalonia as international observers last Sunday and they were unanimous in praising the movement as non-violent good-humoured grass-roots civic nationalism. Watching it all unfold over the past few years and especially last weekend I've also been struck by the similarities between the Catalan and Scottish Yes movements as regards song and poetry and dance and celebration and popular engagement and especially non-violence.

I do know that if anyone from Russia tried to influence the Scottish independence campaign they would be given extremely short shrift. I have a very strong suspicion the Catalan campaign is coming from the same place on that one.

It's a continuing matter of amazement to me just how bitterly any attempt by a non-independent country to achieve the status of independence is opposed by certain people. It seems as if being independent is fine and dandy for the nations who already have it. They have their flags and their anthems and their independence day celebrations, and foreign governments send them congratulatory messages on these days and even send envoys to take part in the ceremonies.

But for those of us looking on like poor children with their noses pressed to the window of the sweetie shop, it's different. No matter how peaceful, we're separatists, insurrectionists, Nazis and everything bad.

I know who the Nazis were in Catalonia last Sunday and they weren't Catalan.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 05:34 AM   #228
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
First thing, since you´re quoting the UN, we should remember that it does not support Catalan independentism, it doesn´t recognise the legitimacy of the referendum, would not allow Catalonia back in the UN etc. And Spain would fulfill those requirements better than Catalonia anyway, but then, if a large majority of Catalans wanted out (which is not the case, but if they did) wouldn´t it be fair to let them?

I haven´t seen those "requirements" mentioned anywhere in the current media coverage, all they seem to be repeating is "Catalans want to vote, voting is democratic, Spain is fascist because it doesn´t allow a democratic referendum " etc. etc. So the only requirement that seems to be waived so far is that of the will of the people. Which is fine and all, but I´d like it to be more concretely explained and defined. Who says Catalonia has a government and Barcelona doesn´t? How do you define what a nation is?

I mean, if you have a region with a large majority of citizens who wish to form their own nation, who says whether they fulfill the necessary requirements if not themselves? Why should they accept the legitimacy of some outside power to dictate whether they do, in opposition to that large majority?
Also the UN and other bodies do not recognise a 'Right' to self determination.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 05:43 AM   #229
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'm now piqued to know what a "auto-hungrian empire" is. Is it an empire that gets hungry by itself?

More importantly, Serbia (and Montenegro) acquired independence from an actual power-wielding empire, while Macedonia was conquered by Serbia in the two Balkan wars, and Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina emerged as parts from the collapsing Austro-Hungarian Empire. Serbia used this to demand a leadership role within Yugoslavia, thus exacerbating tensions arising from other sources.


I'm really at a loss what the silly enclaves and exclaves in a small Dutch/Belgian town have to do with this. Yes, the issue goes back to ca. 1200 and has never been solved, and with the Benelux and the EU there is not really a problem anymore to solve.


Maybe look better?
County of Barcelona:

Principality of Catalonia:



False. BTW, "nation state" is a bit of an anachronism in this context. That concept was only developed in the 19th century.

The Catalans are a nation. Time and again, I'm appalled at the sloppy use of words like "nation" and "state"; proper use of these words is crucial in discussions like this one. With that in mind, would you like to rephrase the rest so I can actually understand what you're trying to say?
Above we have been given the definition of a state. Geography / population government.

What is your definition of a nation?
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 05:52 AM   #230
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Can we all get to decide which country our houses sit in or is that a privilege reserved for those who we decide we need to twist ourselves in knots over trying to deny the basic principles of self determination?
Why not?
Why does a nation have to be physically contiguous especially within the EU? Part of Catalan is entirely within France. Why should people have their nationality changed against their will because of an arbitrary mediaeval boundary? Or have their property 'relocated' from one nation to another?
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 06:04 AM   #231
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Please read my post again. I have explained the relationship of Catalonia with parliaments and monarchs. It was indeed not a kingdom but part of a kingdom. A "principality" with a Parliament, in a monarchical union. It was not itself a kingdom, or for that matter a Republic, which independentists now want to establish. At the time of its loss of independence, Scotland, like Catalonia, was in a monarchical union. Previously, unlike Catalonia, it had been a free-standing kingdom.

The Roman Empire is not a historical issue in the case of the Scotland England division. There is a division between the generally lowland south of the island of Britain, and the more upland and cooler north. The Romans were less interested in the latter, and simply walled it off when their empire stopped expanding. Later, different polities evolved in these areas of different character.

The Gaelic language is not an issue either. As people have changed from speaking Gaelic to English, they have not thereby become less Scottish.

Please find any contributor who states that the Catalans are more virtuous than the Castilians, or that one ethnicity is in general more virtuous than another. Nobody has argued that. What has been argued is that one political arrangement can be better than another, as I am sure you will agree. Or that peaceful voters are better than police thugs who beat them up and confiscate their ballot papers, as I am sure you will also agree.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12015392

Quote:
What I'm saying about the topic:

Unlike the case for Scotland, Castilian Spain has been mooching of Catalonia during centuries.

Unlike the case for Scotland, Castilian Spain have sent their unemployed and internal migrants to Catalonia for Catalans to employ and feed them and as a result about half of the make-up of Catalonia's population come from people born in other places of Spain during the last century, hence there are so many "Catalans" against independence (Any Spanish citizen can vote, not only Catalonia's natives. Any person can be polled by Gallup, not only Spanish citizens but illegal immigrants who fear to lose their jobs in an independent Catalonia and will declare to the pollsters to be citizens)

Unlike a relatively uniform Britain (yes, the keyword is "relatively", and be sure I know Britain a hundred times better than most people here know Spain), there are much deeper differences among different Spanish nationalities, with 10 different languages -one of them not even and Indoeuropean one- some of them nearly extinct owing to political pressure from the central government*, and basically the hard working people (Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Basque Country, Navarra, Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Balearic Islands) feeding the imperialists (Castile, mainly Madrid, and Leon) and the any-time-of-day-is-good-for-a-siesta bumps (Extremadura, Andalusia, Murcia, Canary Islands).
I think this poster implies that some groups are more virtuous than others.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 06:12 AM   #232
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,434
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Why not?
Why does a nation have to be physically contiguous especially within the EU? Part of Catalan is entirely within France. Why should people have their nationality changed against their will because of an arbitrary mediaeval boundary? Or have their property 'relocated' from one nation to another?
With modern spatial maths one can probably draw a contiguous boundary that would delineate an area with a majority voting one way vs the other. This would allow local majority decision making vs. e.g. a dominating urban majority for independence vs a rural majority against.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 07:25 AM   #233
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,450
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Why not?
Why does a nation have to be physically contiguous especially within the EU? Part of Catalan is entirely within France. Why should people have their nationality changed against their will because of an arbitrary mediaeval boundary? Or have their property 'relocated' from one nation to another?
So for example any person currently resident in Northern Ireland should be able to simply declare their home part of the Republic and be treated as a citizen/resident of the Republic?

Scottish nationalists should simply be able to declare themselves part of another country (Somalia? Chile? Whichever they choose?) or indeed part of an independent Scotland and be recognised as such by Westminster?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 07:27 AM   #234
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,763
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Also the UN and other bodies do not recognise a 'Right' to self determination.
Of course not. The UN includes lots of dictatorships who would be loath to acknowledge any such right. Determinig whether something is moral or just is not a useful question for the UN.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 08:12 AM   #235
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,982
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Also the UN and other bodies do not recognise a 'Right' to self determination.
They do, via the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Quote:
PART I

Article 1

1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
It's also one of the organizing principles behind the UN, although it isn't framed as a right in the Charter.

More importantly, legitimizing the power of states seems more or less hopeless without stressing the importance of self-determination. Anything else is going to amount to naked authoritarianism.

Last edited by mumblethrax; 6th October 2017 at 08:14 AM.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 09:12 AM   #236
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,687
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Above we have been given the definition of a state. Geography / population government.
No, we haven't quite. There are two competing definitions of state.
1) the constitutive definition of state: a state is a state if it's recognized as such by the other states.
2) the declarative definition of state: that's the one from the Montevideo Convention. You forgot a very important aspect: the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
Definition (2) would say that Northern Cyprus or Abkhazia are also states, while they're recognized by none of the others - those have banded together in their club of non-recognized states. And then there are edge cases like Palestine or Taiwan or Kosovo that are recognized by some states. See the wiki article for more discussion.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What is your definition of a nation?
Really, do you need to be spoonfed? This is what wiki says:
Quote:
The word nation stems from the Latin natio, meaning "people, tribe, kin, genus, class, flock." Black's Law Dictionary defines a nation as:

A people, or aggregation of men, existing in the form of an organized jural society, usually inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth, speaking the same language, using the same customs, possessing historic continuity, and distinguished from other like groups by their racial origin and characteristics, and generally, but not necessarily, living under the same government and sovereignty.[1]

A nation is distinct from a "people"[1], and is more abstract, and overtly political than an ethnic group.[2] It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its autonomy, unity, and particular interests.[3]
I highlighted the here important part: a nation is a group of people that doesn't necessarily have sovereignty or even a single government.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 11:25 AM   #237
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,646
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know the Catalan independence movement intimately, but some people I do know went to Catalonia as international observers last Sunday and they were unanimous in praising the movement as non-violent good-humoured grass-roots civic nationalism. Watching it all unfold over the past few years and especially last weekend I've also been struck by the similarities between the Catalan and Scottish Yes movements as regards song and poetry and dance and celebration and popular engagement and especially non-violence.

I do know that if anyone from Russia tried to influence the Scottish independence campaign they would be given extremely short shrift. I have a very strong suspicion the Catalan campaign is coming from the same place on that one.

It's a continuing matter of amazement to me just how bitterly any attempt by a non-independent country to achieve the status of independence is opposed by certain people. It seems as if being independent is fine and dandy for the nations who already have it. They have their flags and their anthems and their independence day celebrations, and foreign governments send them congratulatory messages on these days and even send envoys to take part in the ceremonies.

But for those of us looking on like poor children with their noses pressed to the window of the sweetie shop, it's different. No matter how peaceful, we're separatists, insurrectionists, Nazis and everything bad.

I know who the Nazis were in Catalonia last Sunday and they weren't Catalan.
I wish I could see the world in Black and White terms. It would make things so much easier.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 11:50 AM   #238
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,433
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12015392



I think this poster implies that some groups are more virtuous than others.
Yes it's a weird post, about which I have the strongest reservations. But "groups". Is the poster referring to ethnicity, or social category, or regional customs? It's not easy to understand.

However the post doesn't say that Catalans are better than Castilians. What it in fact is saying isn't at all clear, or in my view very sensible.
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2017, 12:16 PM   #239
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,666
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I have this problem too but it's infrequent so I work round it. I just copy the post and quote it manually. It's sometimes an issue with the edit function as well but again I can manually copy the post and paste it into the edit box, then edit it.

Yeah. That's what I do. And that's what Architect was apologizing for. I thought. Because you end up with a post lacking the the standard attribution with link to the quoted post.

Quote:

I didn't realise there were specific features of particular posts that were causing the issue.

To tell the truth, I'm not so certain anymore that there are.

It had always seemed to me that the problem posts contained some such, but the most recent one one that blanked out on me had none at all.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."

Last edited by quadraginta; 6th October 2017 at 12:21 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th October 2017, 05:37 AM   #240
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 6,357
Sigh. Vargas Llosa spitting out crap on the tele today, calling Catalans racist. Shoe's on the other foot, clod. Hop along now.

Massive censorship means Madrid media, viewable here, has contained no images of police beating women and the elderly since events began. Slowly, the propaganda fix wraps around events to squeeze every last fact out of reality. Euronews now only broadcasts Madrid-approved pap. Macron's France24 interview a cantankerous old dolt and named him the "silent majority." And so on.

Hey, now we can go back to normal. As a non-Catalan who can pass as Castilian, I now get to hear all the wonderful slurs and n-words proffered in ignorance, as if I shared their views. Now with even mo' better 'democratic' gusto. Great!
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time videogaming.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:12 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.