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Old 26th September 2017, 06:53 AM   #361
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just because everyone has some form of privilege doesn't mean it does not exist.
So then who had the most should be decided on an individual basis, no?

Or are you afraid that you might not come out as the most opposed person in the roomiddle if we do that?
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:56 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Whatever clearly racism and sexism never hurt anyone anymore, you are clear about that. Anyone who claims racism and sexism exists except maybe against straight white men is clearly a lying scumbag. Studies and evidence will never dissuade you so what is even the point in debating this?
Well that went personally hostile in a hurry.

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Old 26th September 2017, 07:02 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Whatever clearly racism and sexism never hurt anyone anymore, you are clear about that. Anyone who claims racism and sexism exists except maybe against straight white men is clearly a lying scumbag. Studies and evidence will never dissuade you so what is even the point in debating this?
If you want to debate yourself, no need to post. But no one is saying that.

We are saying that we do not like to be treated as a representative of our race but as individuals. And that by trying to wedge the complex concept of privilege into pop psychology terms you are doing a **** load of harm to any progression of race relations.

Btw,any idea how enraging it is as someone who is less than half white, raised in a redneck adoptive family ,to be told that because I'm light skinned (racist ******** have ironically called out my ethnicity long before I knew it ) my view on life is tainted by privilege?

But no, let's throw nuance out the window because it feels good to say "dear white people".
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:05 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Well that went personally hostile in a hurry.
It always goes to guilt.

I actually wish that I could justify using this line of thinking. Id be some kind of king of no privilege. But I think that people should be listened to regardless of race. Silly *********** me.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:21 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Phew! For a moment there I thought you'd go a whole minute without making a strawman. Cataclysm averted.
You are clear that no amount of racism or sexism would have impacted where you are now. That was destiny and could not be upset by setbacks like an undeserved criminal record or such.

Clearly being free of those was in no way an advantage. Otherwise not being subjected to racism and sexism would be an advantage and you have made it clear that there is no advantage in not being subjected to racism and sexism so being subjected to racism and sexis must not have any serious consequences. Or are you giving up on any pretense at a logically consistent position?
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:24 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are clear that no amount of racism or sexism would have impacted where you are now. That was destiny and could not be upset by setbacks like an undeserved criminal record or such.

Clearly being free of those was in no way an advantage. Otherwise not being subjected to racism and sexism would be an advantage and you have made it clear that there is no advantage in not being subjected to racism and sexism so being subjected to racism and sexis must not have any serious consequences. Or are you giving up on any pretense at a logically consistent position?
You're basically describing anyone disagreeing with you as the same caricatured boogeyman.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:28 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I just googled "black dolls" and found many companies that specialize in black dolls. But further than that, I found multiple pages on both WalMart's and Target's websites that had black dolls in many shapes and sizes.

This seems to suggest that finding a black doll isn't hard.

I guess the progressive thing to do is to base your view on one store in one city (like the lady in the blog). I tend to take a broader approach.
Exactly. I can walk into any toy shop and plainly see black action figures on the shelves. This notion that black people cannot find their likeness in a toy as easy as white people is pretty much pure drivel.

I just checked Wal-Mart's website and within less than one minute I found this guy: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Apollo-Cr...gure/760539276
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:29 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You're basically describing anyone disagreeing with you as the same caricatured boogeyman.
How is it a caricature when the premise that you are rejecting that being subjected to racism or sexism gives someone a competitive disadvantage?

So unless it does not give a disadvantage how it is not a relative advantage to not be subjected to racism or sexism?
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:33 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
[bold mine]
That's actually quite an excellent point, and one I've tried to make in meatspace to people when arguing about this whole 'representation' thing in movies, TV, etc. I didn't watch Predator and immediately feel like that was me up there on screen because I have the same skin and hair color as Arnold. Both characters, Dutch and Dylan, were such bulked up slabs of man meat that their skin color didn't make one of them 'look like me' in any reasonable sense, when either one looked like they were sporting more muscle mass in their left ass cheeks than I had overall.

Closest I've come to seeing 'hey, that's me' in a movie was when that short alien reached greedily for his drink at the bar in the original Star Wars ...
If anyone would care to walk into any Japanese toy store, you'll be hard-pressed to find many black or white action-figures over the obvious Japanese ones. You do get black and white action-figures there, but there is an obvious abundance of Japanese toys depicting Japanese people, MMA fighters, wrestlers, anime characters, etc.

I didn't feel like I was on Mars walking through any Japanese toy store just because I didn't see rows and rows of white action-figures.

To this day, I've yet to see any shaven-headed Scouse action-figures that represent me, and my life isn't incomplete without them. People don't half talk some bollocks.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:39 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How is it a caricature when the premise that you are rejecting that being subjected to racism or sexism gives someone a competitive disadvantage?
When did I ever reject that premise?

I'm not even sure that was the initial premise which was being contested (by others, I feel the need to point out). I saw a discussion about what forms it takes and some spirited disagreement over scope with varying perspectives put forward.

But me specifically? What you describe is quite far from my view.

I think you're blanket applying the "clueless white" stereotype onto me, a specific person.

Quote:
So unless it does not give a disadvantage how it is not a relative advantage to not be subjected to racism or sexism?
Pointless, since I'm not in opposition as you presumed.

But it's also a rather circular statement, which again goes to the intellectual laziness that dominates this topic (not that racists show command of reason and logic, either).

Here's the summary of my position: if this issue really is serious and in dire need of action (and it is), then we'd do well to stop being so stunningly stupid at articulating it in a way that convinces anyone not already won over (and even annoying the crap out of allies).

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Old 26th September 2017, 07:49 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Jeez, where to start. Since you will handwave away anyhow, lets see how this goes..

In the Justice System:

Harsher sentencing
Where is this information coming from? We've no idea what the trials consisted of or what the crime even was, what the area was, if it was predominantly black, or anything else, lol. I could show you stats from the UK that would likely show a far higher percentage of white people having the book thrown at them with harsh sentences. Walton prison has a much larger white population than it does black people, what does this mean? Bugger-all, you're reaching for vague statistics that do not apply across the board to prove that white people are privileged. Either you're intentionally being disingenuous or you're not very sharp.

It even says that At least half this gap can be explained by initial charging choices, particularly the filing of charges carrying mandatory minimum sentences. Seriously, are you always this sneaky?




Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
In Schools:

Harsher discipline
LOL, yet another US-related example that doesn't explain any of the specific cases in which a black or Hispanic student has been punished. Yet again, this is pure drivel that is so wonderfully vague as to make it redundant as evidence for white privilege.

What this has to do with the UK is anyone's guess. This basically solidifies my opinion that this nonsense white privilege business is purely American-made.




Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Another totally non-UK related issue you're offering me here. If you're even remotely interested in UK news you'll surely be aware that house-prices over here have been nothing short of ridiculous for any first-time buyer, regardless of their colour. This isn't something you can even dare attribute to the UK, so once again: white privilege is an American-made bit of tripe.




Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Another non-UK related issue, lol. There are no higher pay-wages here for whites over blacks. The only people who generally get stiffed over here with their wages are the Polish and Latvian groups. You're thus far failing at outlining literally any privilege that I'm supposed to have as a white, British male.





Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
And I'll grant as the article does that other factors can determine this beyond education, even though they still aren't able to close the gap based solely on other quantifiable attributes.


Housing discrimination:

Discrimination complaints
Again, how does this relate to anyone in the UK whatsoever? There are plenty of black, Asian and European people who are given council-houses or flats in the UK, same with white people. As far as I know, this is not an issue in any city in the UK.




Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Let me know how that does for you.
Well, considering the fact that you've just listed a bunch of American stats that don't even explain in detail where these figures are coming from and what the circumstances in each individual case were, I'd say you've failed at telling me, an Englishman, what my white privilege is supposed to consist of. Next time, please try harder.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:56 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
As adults? No.

As children, however, it's actually pretty important. Children need to be able to see themselves in their heroes, they need to be reflected in the ideal, in the normal, in the acceptable. Regardless of whether you approve of it or not, physical characteristics are one of the most immediately recognizable elements for resonance in children.

If the only people who you are shown as successful, good, noble, and heroic are people that are NOT like you, it leaves an impression that you are not able to be a successful, good, noble, and heroic person. Children need to see themselves reflected in the world around them, in their role models, to help create their sense of self. It informs their view of themselves, and how they fit into the world. It informs their basis for what they believe they are capable of.
I grew up in the 80's seeing all kinds of weird crap on TV, I probably saw space aliens and monsters more than I saw some blue-eyed white kid.

The idea that black children do not see themselves "reflected in their heroes" is nonsensical, seeing as I've already mentioned several massive toy-lines that all feature black people, for boys and girls.

I don't understand how anyone can say such a thing and yet reside in the real world.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:58 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
When did I ever reject that premise?
That is simply an alternative definition of lacking privilege. So by stating you don't believe in privilege means that you don't believe that.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:58 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
That is not their conclusion. The 5% you refer to is in regards to the mean-gap post-justice process for judicial decisions as opposed to prosecutorial decisions, if I read their conclusion correctly.



This is at the Federal level, with other studies done at the state level being far more harsh, especially in regards to drug charge sentencing. This study I referenced did not include drug charges if I remember correctly.
Correct, they pull out a few different charges in the study. The conclusion the Michigan Law paper you cite is that there is a 9.6% disparity in sentencing, which is largely explained by the prosecutor filing mandatory minimum charges up front, which you also note. This is not the same as harsher sentencing.

Originally Posted by Michigan Law paper
Sentence disparities at the mean and at most deciles can be largely explained by three factors: the original arrest offense, the defendant’s criminal history, and the prosecutor’s initial choice of charges. That leaves less than a 5% mean gap in sentences for the post-charge justice process (including judicial decisions) to explain—perhaps substantially less if our estimates understate the explanatory value of the mandatory minimum, as suggested above.
As I read the paper, It seems to say that there is a 9.6% disparity in sentencing, which the authors concede may all be explainable.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but 0% is not referenced anywhere.
The authors state:

Originally Posted by Michigan Law paper
Estimates using the Sentencing Commission’s recording of the presence of a mandatory minimum at conviction suggest that prosecutors’ decisions regarding mandatory minimums could even potentially explain all of the otherwise-unexplained racial gaps in sentencing in our sample, at all but the highest deciles.
So, possibly 0%, or at least below margin of error.

Quote:
And to say that 5%-10% after discounting all other attributes is acceptable in your eyes, especially since this is just in regards to federal sentencing, is the problem. Even to just take into account incarceration numbers national beyond the federal level and extrapolate, with 2.3 million black Americans incarcerated, that would mean this affects 115-230k citizens negatively due to race. To go with the low end, if 1 in 20 people of a certain race are negatively affected in these circumstances, is that really so low as to dismiss? And isn't the dismissal itself at that level a clear indication of privilege, since the outcome doesn't affect you enough to be deemed important?
Nope. The 'dismissal' is only that this Michigan paper is not demonstrating harsher sentencing, as you call it. The authors acknowledge that some of the important factors are not included, in particular why prosecutors leveled mandatory minimums twice as often. They look at the end result without enough front-end field-leveling. It might be more telling to examine these areas more closely. The paper says it basically finds 10% racial disparity in sentencing, but might all be conventionally explainable anyway.

Quote:
As for a solid link, how exactly would we go about distinguishing this concretely enough for you? When multiple data points across multiple sectors show an issue, at what point do you accept said issue is accurate? Especially when the research already attempts to lessen the impact of any variable besides race? I reference the justice system, schools, loans, wage gap and housing discrimination all coming to a conclusion that race has a negative affect in these specific fields.
You do provide evidence. In toto, it is not convincing, especially if it is not identifying race as the differentiating factor, as opposed to socio-economic class (I think this distinction is often confused). The USA a money-based country, and I think that is where the privilege lies. Blacks, I think it can be generally agreed, receive a poor education and consequently are less prepared for upward mobility (grossly oversimplified). That's a money/class problem, not a specifically racial one. Agreed or no?
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:02 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is simply an alternative definition of lacking privilege. So by stating you don't believe in privilege means that you don't believe that.
And I stated that I don't believe in privilege...?

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Old 26th September 2017, 08:04 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No he didn't. He simply stated that many white people refuse to accept white privilege. Like how the article this is about is how straight black men act in a similar fashion.

Refusing to acknowledge privilege is pretty common for those who have it.
There is no privilege to accept, though, lol. RD and Emily have thus far given me a list that in no way describes a white, British person's life, things such as American Hispanics and blacks being punished more in school, wtf does that even mean? So utterly vague in the details pertaining to any of the cases and so utterly non-UK related that you may as well be telling me I'm privileged because there's a white man living comfortably in Australia.

Not only that, but these other privileges have genuinely been made up on the spot. Being able to go into a shop and not raise suspicion? Where is all of this evidence that any black people get looked at funny in their local Asda or Tesco? lol. Security guards are looking for kids generally, and known shoplifters, many of whom are white crackheads.

It's not even possible to comprehend this level of absurdity on this forum.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:07 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because we have context. Black lives Matter makes sense in the view that the police are killing black people disproportionately and the media is always looking to justify their deaths. Blue lives matter has an entirely different context of sending the message that the police are simply worth more than anyone else.

So taking a statement totally out of the context that it is and cherry picking it, yes you can add ambiguity to the statement. Congratulations you are hitting republicans claiming that they have do dependence on infrastructure or education in the success of their businesses levels of being oblique.
What the hell is wrong with saying that ALL lives matter? There's enough people of every colour getting murdered out there in the real world each and every day, with many many white women being raped and murdered in the Middle East. The idea that black American's have it rougher than anyone else is nothing short of comical.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:08 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are clear (snip)
No, stop trying to justify your strawmen by characterising your deluded interpretation of my posts as 'what Argumemnon is clearly saying'. You don't get to use that interpretation as evidence of my intent.

Quote:
You are clear that no amount of racism or sexism would have impacted where you are now. That was destiny and could not be upset by setbacks like an undeserved criminal record or such.

Clearly being free of those was in no way an advantage. Otherwise not being subjected to racism and sexism would be an advantage and you have made it clear that there is no advantage in not being subjected to racism and sexism so being subjected to racism and sexis must not have any serious consequences. Or are you giving up on any pretense at a logically consistent position?
- "Stop using strawmen!"
- "Here, take this even more exaggerated one!"

If you're trying to parody left-wing ideologues, you're a genius.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:11 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, damn.

I look away to Puerto Rico, or some dude taking a knee in the NFL and toupee fiasco throwing a hissy fit in response, and y'all start going in on one another? We're really back to putting thoughts to Argumemnon, rather than the point of the article, which, remember, was to point out the hypocrisy of straight black guys who get mad when white people don't listen to them and yet who themselves refuse to listen to black women? Sorry, I need to read up on the thread, but y'all are going way off...

ETA: The original phrase was actually "Black men are the white women of the black community." THis drove a lot of guys into absolute hysterics. And I do use that word knowing where it came from.
The OP clearly didn't care about the actual article, despite pretending that he did, as he quite obviously put the emphasis on the headline itself, rather than the article, and he did it so that this debate could begin.

If the OP had intended to discuss the article, then why did he choose to quite clearly make the emphasis about the headline in question?

Yeah, he really was only interested in debating the content of the article, yet as soon as he got the responses that he should've expected, he jumped right in there gladly.

So many race-baiting threads on here, and so much whiny white self-hate from posters who are apparently grown adults.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #380
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What I've learned today, ladies and gents, is that I, Mr. Gilberto Von Syndrome, of Liverpool, England, am privileged, because some black people in America get paid less than some white people in America...

No, there's no punchline, that's the entire joke!

Oh dear.

I wonder if my privilege also extends to the far-reaches of Alaska. Maybe there's a white bloke there with a slightly bigger igloo than his non-white neighbours. I really am a white devil. May the non-white Jesus have mercy on my soul.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:17 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Correct, they pull out a few different charges in the study. The conclusion the Michigan Law paper you cite is that there is a 9.6% disparity in sentencing, which is largely explained by the prosecutor filing mandatory minimum charges up front, which you also note. This is not the same as harsher sentencing.

As I read the paper, It seems to say that there is a 9.6% disparity in sentencing, which the authors concede may all be explainable.


Nope. The 'dismissal' is only that this Michigan paper is not demonstrating harsher sentencing, as you call it. The authors acknowledge that some of the important factors are not included, in particular why prosecutors leveled mandatory minimums twice as often. They look at the end result without enough front-end field-leveling. It might be more telling to examine these areas more closely. The paper says it basically finds 10% racial disparity in sentencing, but might all be conventionally explainable anyway.


You do provide evidence. In toto, it is not convincing, especially if it is not identifying race as the differentiating factor, as opposed to socio-economic class (I think this distinction is often confused). The USA a money-based country, and I think that is where the privilege lies. Blacks, I think it can be generally agreed, receive a poor education and consequently are less prepared for upward mobility (grossly oversimplified). That's a money/class problem, not a specifically racial one. Agreed or no?


As I quoted earlier, there is front end leveling done. What you are disagreeing with is more or less the premise of the piece. The fact prosecutors are twice as likely to level charges with mandatory minimum sentences all things being equal to black defendants as opposed to whites, is a main point. The shortening gap you reference refers to the judicial power influencing sentencing as opposed to the prosecutorial power. That does not negate that point, it emphasizes it.

As for the money/class point, you'll have no qualms from me on that front. I find that to be a larger issue in regards to a number of seemingly race related discrepancies, which is why I weight studies that don't account for that much lower.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:36 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
As I quoted earlier, there is front end leveling done. What you are disagreeing with is more or less the premise of the piece. The fact prosecutors are twice as likely to level charges with mandatory minimum sentences all things being equal to black defendants as opposed to whites, is a main point. The shortening gap you reference refers to the judicial power influencing sentencing as opposed to the prosecutorial power. That does not negate that point, it emphasizes it.
Yes, but as I read it, it emphasizes an attempt to re-level what was biased up front, the doubled mandatory minimum charges. The amount of qualifiers the paper places on their data base I find a little troubling in terms of isolating race (they seem to have a bunch of uncontrolled variables).

Quote:
As for the money/class point, you'll have no qualms from me on that front. I find that to be a larger issue in regards to a number of seemingly race related discrepancies, which is why I weight studies that don't account for that much lower.
I am not convinced that the Michigan paper does this. I think it's premise contains a foregone conclusion and it struggles with the alternate explanations. Far more interesting would be a study on why the mandatory minimum was charged at the disproportionaly higher rate, factoring in priors, circumstances of arrest and evidence, etc
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:43 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Yes, but as I read it, it emphasizes an attempt to re-level what was biased up front, the doubled mandatory minimum charges. The amount of qualifiers the paper places on their data base I find a little troubling in terms of isolating race (they seem to have a bunch of uncontrolled variables).



I am not convinced that the Michigan paper does this. I think it's premise contains a foregone conclusion and it struggles with the alternate explanations. Far more interesting would be a study on why the mandatory minimum was charged at the disproportionaly higher rate, factoring in priors, circumstances of arrest and evidence, etc
Again -

Quote:
Using both regression methods and a semi-parametric reweighting approach, we find that black defendants face significantly more severe charges than whites even after controlling for criminal behavior (arrest offense, multiple-defendant case structure, and criminal history), observed defendant characteristics (e.g., age, education), defense counsel type, district, county economic characteristics, and crime rates.
Not sure which isolating factor unlisted you feel they left out as a measure to reach their forgone conclusion.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:25 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Again -



Not sure which isolating factor unlisted you feel they left out as a measure to reach their forgone conclusion.
Quick example: they indicate county economic characteristics as a leveling factor. How many counties are uniform in income distribution/class? Think a county in, say, New York or Los Angeles would be a level playing field to draw data from, or might that be statistically misleading?
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:41 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
What I've learned today, ladies and gents, is that I, Mr. Gilberto Von Syndrome, of Liverpool, England, am privileged, because some black people in America get paid less than some white people in America...

No, there's no punchline, that's the entire joke!

Oh dear.

I wonder if my privilege also extends to the far-reaches of Alaska. Maybe there's a white bloke there with a slightly bigger igloo than his non-white neighbours. I really am a white devil. May the non-white Jesus have mercy on my soul.
I think the problem is that in these discussions people take a concept that is meant to apply to groups/populations and apply it to individual members.

So then you have the usual. Hey that badge doesn't really apply to me and you have not accounted for a whole lot of other stuff. Or hey look at you denying you have a badge...lol.

In the end privilege calculus at the individual level is stupid, futile and self defeating. Having a person check their privilege makes the one asking look like an uninformed fool unless of course you lived their life for them and have accounted for all privileges they have and don't have properly.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:51 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"You think that way because the culture you live in reinforces it" is a statement that could be explored meaningfully.

Asserting a person's ethnicity as the reason for their thoughts or behaviors directly is terribly regressive.
I agree with this - and it's part of why I try to avoid referring to it as "white privilege" or "male privilege". I don't always succeed, but I try. Because it's not inherently about race or sex - it's about society, and society's expectations for a person based on their perceived race or sex (or sexuality or good looks or any number of things).

That's also why I avoid conflating issues of privilege with 'isms'. Racial privilege isn't racism. Gender privilege isn't sexism.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:53 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
He ascribed the cause of my thoughts to my skin colour. I can think of few statements that are more racist.

"Of course you think this silly thing. You're black!"
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of white people do. Funny how that works.
Let me try rephrasing that...

Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, because that's what you experienced. Not having experienced the alternative challenges that a person without your privilege experience often makes a person blind to the existence of their own privilege.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:05 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, damn.

I look away to Puerto Rico, or some dude taking a knee in the NFL and toupee fiasco throwing a hissy fit in response, and y'all start going in on one another? We're really back to putting thoughts to Argumemnon, rather than the point of the article, which, remember, was to point out the hypocrisy of straight black guys who get mad when white people don't listen to them and yet who themselves refuse to listen to black women? Sorry, I need to read up on the thread, but y'all are going way off...

ETA: The original phrase was actually "Black men are the white women of the black community." THis drove a lot of guys into absolute hysterics. And I do use that word knowing where it came from.
I dunno. Looks like they're doing exactly what black people accuse white people of doing, but which they insist isn't a thing.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:07 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Word it the way you want. You intimated that the colour of my skin determines my opinion on the matter.
Not really though. He intimated that the color of your skin has shaped your experience throughout your life, whether you wanted it to or not. He further intimated that your experience throughout your life is what informs your opinion.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:11 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
There is no privilege to accept, though, lol. RD and Emily have thus far given me a list that in no way describes a white, British person's life, things such as American Hispanics and blacks being punished more in school, wtf does that even mean? So utterly vague in the details pertaining to any of the cases and so utterly non-UK related that you may as well be telling me I'm privileged because there's a white man living comfortably in Australia.

Not only that, but these other privileges have genuinely been made up on the spot. Being able to go into a shop and not raise suspicion? Where is all of this evidence that any black people get looked at funny in their local Asda or Tesco? lol. Security guards are looking for kids generally, and known shoplifters, many of whom are white crackheads.

It's not even possible to comprehend this level of absurdity on this forum.
Hey! Lookit that! You're a UKer! So clearly, this discussion about the dynamics of US culture is all about you!
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:48 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Let me try rephrasing that...

Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, because that's what you experienced. Not having experienced the alternative challenges that a person without your privilege experience often makes a person blind to the existence of their own privilege.
As a thinking person, not having personal experience in something is irrelevant: I can view data and numbers and draw conclusions. If the claim is grounded in reality, then we should be able to at least agree on parts of it.

Quote:
Not really though. He intimated that the color of your skin has shaped your experience throughout your life, whether you wanted it to or not. He further intimated that your experience throughout your life is what informs your opinion.
Do you think the argument would fly if the colours were reversed?
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:56 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
As a thinking person, not having personal experience in something is irrelevant: I can view data and numbers and draw conclusions. If the claim is grounded in reality, then we should be able to at least agree on parts of it.
You'd think so, but it's very, very, very often not the case. It's remarkably hard to see past ones own perspective.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think the argument would fly if the colours were reversed?
The argument I made would certainly work just as well. That's the point - your experience defines your perspective.

Unless you believe that skin color has no bearing on any person's experience in the US? That seems like a false assumption on its face - there's copious evidence to suggest that one's nationality and perceived ethnicity are a large component of one's experience within society, at least in the US. Similarly, one's gender and sexuality are both large components of one's experience, and thus will shape one's perspective.
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Old 27th September 2017, 11:11 AM   #393
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Would a car salesman treat a man in a suit the same as a man in torn clothing, all things being equal? If the former asks you for your phone to make a call because 'he forgot his phone', would you be more open to letting him use it, than if the latter asked for it?

I believe in both cases the man in a suit will be given the benefit of doubt. This is because we believe that people who dress well are more likely to have money and also therefore, more trustworthy. In that respect, there is a privilege accorded to those who are of a higher socio-economic level. In the US minorities are represented in the lower socio-economic strata more than white people, and therefore the preconceptions get transferred. As Gilbert Syndrome said, this can be seen in the UK too with 'chavs' who are traditionally 'lower class'. In Emily's Cat's post about how some shopkeepers can look suspiciously at black customers - it is more to do with this unconscious correlation of crime>poverty>race than with active racism.

A man in a suit would never believe that someone wouldn't hand over their phone if anyone had to make a call because of his experiences. And that's why I can understand why a white or even Asian person in the US might not believe the shopkeeper example.
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Old 27th September 2017, 11:46 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Dipayan View Post
Would a car salesman treat a man in a suit the same as a man in torn clothing, all things being equal? If the former asks you for your phone to make a call because 'he forgot his phone', would you be more open to letting him use it, than if the latter asked for it?

I believe in both cases the man in a suit will be given the benefit of doubt. This is because we believe that people who dress well are more likely to have money and also therefore, more trustworthy. In that respect, there is a privilege accorded to those who are of a higher socio-economic level. In the US minorities are represented in the lower socio-economic strata more than white people, and therefore the preconceptions get transferred. As Gilbert Syndrome said, this can be seen in the UK too with 'chavs' who are traditionally 'lower class'. In Emily's Cat's post about how some shopkeepers can look suspiciously at black customers - it is more to do with this unconscious correlation of crime>poverty>race than with active racism.

A man in a suit would never believe that someone wouldn't hand over their phone if anyone had to make a call because of his experiences. And that's why I can understand why a white or even Asian person in the US might not believe the shopkeeper example.
Well said, Dipayan.

I'd add that while socioeconomic expectations are a large part of the issue, I don't think they're the only issue. There are stereoptypes and associations that play into it - lazy mexican, alcoholic indian, geeky chinese, etc. Many of those stereotypes are persisted and propagated through portrayals in film, TV, and other channels of fictional storytelling.

And in some cases, certain portrayals are persisted or reinforced by the particular group themselves, which is quite unfortunate. It can be very difficult to address and make headway in situations like that. For example, there tends to be an association of black males in the US with violence, specifically gang violence and 'street thugs'. It's an unfair stereotype - there are huge numbers of black men in the US who don't fit that stereotype. But you also have some historical basis in terms of actual gangs that are predominantly black (Crips & Bloods, etc.). And a lot of that image is perpetuated through that subculture via music and film, to a degree it's even idolized. That can make it incredibly difficult to overcome a stereotype, especially one that is perceived negatively by those outside of that subculture.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You'd think so
Oh, I know so.

Quote:
The argument I made would certainly work just as well. That's the point - your experience defines your perspective.
But it doesn't limit your ability to think.

Quote:
Unless you believe that skin color has no bearing on any person's experience in the US? That seems like a false assumption on its face - there's copious evidence to suggest that one's nationality and perceived ethnicity are a large component of one's experience within society, at least in the US. Similarly, one's gender and sexuality are both large components of one's experience, and thus will shape one's perspective.
Obviously, but how does that connect to my statements?
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:14 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, I know so.
How do you know?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But it doesn't limit your ability to think.
Actually, it very often does. The ability to actually understand someone else's experience of a thing, when you have not ever experienced that thing, is pretty seriously limiting.

Here - let's try an exercise. Think of a time when you've felt that you were at a disadvantage in a situation because of what society expected of you. Can you describe it? Can you describe what it felt like? What were the circumstances, and how was that disadvantage one imposed by social expectations rather than person limitations?
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:18 PM   #397
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FYI - For many years, I was also very resistant to the concept of privilege. It didn't come easily, it was hard to accept. I did not want to believe that I had unearned advantages based on someone else's expectations of me, when those expectations were based on something well beyond my ability to influence or control.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:22 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Daald View Post
I think the problem is that in these discussions people take a concept that is meant to apply to groups/populations and apply it to individual members.

So then you have the usual. Hey that badge doesn't really apply to me and you have not accounted for a whole lot of other stuff. Or hey look at you denying you have a badge...lol.

In the end privilege calculus at the individual level is stupid, futile and self defeating. Having a person check their privilege makes the one asking look like an uninformed fool unless of course you lived their life for them and have accounted for all privileges they have and don't have properly.
It just makes me chuckle to see these so-called examples of privilege consisting of such obviously nonsensical crap as "I can walk into a supermarket and not have people look at me funny". I mean, seriously, who the hell does this apply to? This is implying that black people struggle to visit supermarkets, which is quite clearly an absolutely hilariously half-baked lie.

Any white kid in a school uniform in this country will raise suspicion in a shop, whether the staff are white, black or Asian.

When people struggle to give even one clear and legitimate example of this privilege, it really highlights how utterly feeble-minded such a thing is.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Hey! Lookit that! You're a UKer! So clearly, this discussion about the dynamics of US culture is all about you!
Hey, look, Emily totally missed the fact that RD tried to explain my privilege using American-based examples and stats only relevant to the USA.

Not surprising, since you've also apparently missed at least 3 decades worth of black action-figures, lol.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:28 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How do you know?
Er... because people do it all the time.

Quote:
Think of a time when you've felt that you were at a disadvantage in a situation because of what society expected of you.
Never happened.

Quote:
FYI - For many years, I was also very resistant to the concept of privilege. It didn't come easily, it was hard to accept.
Reverse is true for me. But I'm not saying that the sexes aren't advantaged in some ways. I'm saying that it's not deliberate, that it's not simple and reserved for one of the sexes, and that it's not what I would call a privilege the way a driver's license is.
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