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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:41 AM   #41
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Perchance could you explain how this treats white people as the enemy? It uses common out of hand dismissals used by white people to refute issues regarding racism, and turns around to point out how they are used by straight black men in regards to black women and the issues they face.

There is literally no reason to start worrying about saying 'not all white people', because that is a given.
What it does is imply that only white people are dismissal of racism, when we know for a fact that racism is something that isn't exclusive to white people at all, and anyone who thinks it is does not live in the real world.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:41 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The article literally says that it doesn't mean that all white people are racist or dismissive.
Of course. Some of their best friends are white people!
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:42 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Trust, we get it all the damm time, every time we talk to white people about it. It's not every white person, but it's a *way* higher percentage than from other minorities. If fact, it's very few black or Latino males (who often get the same harassment, if not the same unjustified murder rate), or indigenous folks (who actually have a *higher* unarmed shooting rate then black males do).
What percentage of a given designated group need to exhibit a given behavior before one can consider the behavior and the designation to be essentially interchangeable?

Because I'm pretty sure that kind of verbal subtext has (rightly, I might add) been considered anathema for quite some time.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 22nd September 2017 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:43 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
What it does is imply that only white people are dismissal of racism, when we know for a fact that racism is something that isn't exclusive to white people at all, and anyone who thinks it is does not live in the real world.
Remember: racism is discrimination+power. White people are the oppressor, ergo only they can be racists! See how easy it is when you redefine words?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:44 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The article literally says that it doesn't mean that all white people are racist or dismissive. But there were far too many people who looked at Dylann Roof and said "He's not a racist", despite the extremely clear evidence that he was becoming dangerous.
There are also far too many black people who do not seem to bat an eyelid when talking about the white man and crackers and white guys be like...

Racism is something that has no base colour, every group of people is capable of it, yet most people only choose to see it and recognize it when it's coming from a white person.

It's hilarious, but it's unsurprising in this modern age where a lot of white people seem to have some weird sexual fetish for hating themselves.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:47 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Remember: racism is discrimination+power. White people are the oppressor, ergo only they can be racists! See how easy it is when you redefine words?
Never has the Minor Threat song, Guilty of Being White, been more appropriate.

I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:48 AM   #47
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Also, oh boy let me tell you how well-received any attempt on my part (being a "white cis-het male") to address misogyny and patriarchal attitudes in some minority cultures has been.

Whataboutism rears its head real fast, then.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
This is a misquote. I said "mostly", not "most".
Both are equally disingenuous, Mumbles.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:51 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
What it does is imply that only white people are dismissal of racism, when we know for a fact that racism is something that isn't exclusive to white people at all, and anyone who thinks it is does not live in the real world.
How does it imply, explicit or implicit, that only white people are dismissive of racism? Does the fact the article focuses on issues regarding black men and black women imply that white men do not have the same issues in regards to women?

This really isn't hard.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:53 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
How does it imply, explicit or implicit, that only white people are dismissive of racism? Does the fact the article focuses on issues regarding black men and black women imply that white men do not have the same issues in regards to women?

This really isn't hard.
By clearly stating that straight black males are the white people of black people, lol. This implies that only white people are capable of dismissing racism and ignorance, when history and fact show us otherwise.
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Last edited by Gilbert Syndrome; 22nd September 2017 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:54 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
This really isn't hard.
No it isn't, so I don't know why you asked me a question that is painfully obvious.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
How does it imply, explicit or implicit, that only white people are dismissive of racism? Does the fact the article focuses on issues regarding black men and black women imply that white men do not have the same issues in regards to women?

This really isn't hard.
It's an article about unconcern with the plight of those who don't share some immutable quality with oneself. That's a behavior. There's numerous words in the English language to describe that kind of behavior.

I really don't understand if the real goal is to eradicate socially negative behaviors, why we don't call out the socially negative behaviors by name. I've literally sat through whole conversations of "woke" friends using ethnic, sexual, and other identity labels as stand-ins for all kinds of behaviors...and the topic is about oppression and stereotypes!
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Old 22nd September 2017, 07:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Also, oh boy let me tell you how well-received any attempt on my part (being a "white cis-het male") to address misogyny and patriarchal attitudes in some minority cultures has been.

Whataboutism rears its head real fast, then.
And that's exactly what the article is about.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:01 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
By clearly implying that straight black males are the white people of black people, lol. This implies that only white people are capable of dismissing racism and ignorance, when history and fact show us otherwise.
No. It plainly states that the dismissals used by white people to refute black claims of racism are directly reflected in the way in which black men deny the experiences of black women.

Why does that make people so defensive? What is so damaging about that comparison, i don't personally understand.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And that's exactly what the article is about.
Which is why I find it terribly misguided to say that failure to address this issue is "white" behavior. I'm not the one who drums me out of the conversation.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:02 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Remember: racism is discrimination+power. White people are the oppressor, ergo only they can be racists! See how easy it is when you redefine words?
As I've said, many times, this definition is ultimately incoherent - there are plenty of situations where a minority has power over a white person in any event, and anyone who seriously tells me that the NBPP or the black Israelites aren't deeply racist will get the side-eye of the year from me. Difference is, most of them are just standing around shouting. Wrong, yes, but not seriously, *financially* harmful.

Last edited by Mumbles; 22nd September 2017 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:04 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
No. It plainly states that the dismissals used by white people to refute black claims of racism are directly reflected in the way in which black men deny the experiences of black women.

Why does that make people so defensive? What is so damaging about that comparison, i don't personally understand.
Because that behavior already has ways to be referred to.

Here's a few:

hollow rationalizations

hand-waving

minimization tactics

privileged perspective
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
No. It plainly states that the dismissals used by white people to refute black claims of racism are directly reflected in the way in which black men deny the experiences of black women.

Why does that make people so defensive? What is so damaging about that comparison, i don't personally understand.
Why only white people? And you wonder why people get defensive. It's because they get sick and tired of these race-bait articles being thrown about. And you were surprised when you got the reaction that you surely knew you'd get? Yeah, no.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:08 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Because that behavior already has ways to be referred to.

Here's a few:

hollow rationalizations

hand-waving

minimization tactics

privileged perspective
But this approach points out that it's the exact same behavior that these guys complain about when white people do it. There are black folks, right now, tweeting about Jemele Hill that, if you change to a white avatar, you would *swear* were from those "alt-white" creeps.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:14 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It's an article about unconcern with the plight of those who don't share some immutable quality with oneself. That's a behavior. There's numerous words in the English language to describe that kind of behavior.

I really don't understand if the real goal is to eradicate socially negative behaviors, why we don't call out the socially negative behaviors by name. I've literally sat through whole conversations of "woke" friends using ethnic, sexual, and other identity labels as stand-ins for all kinds of behaviors...and the topic is about oppression and stereotypes!
First, and hopefully not to get off topic, MOST people are unconcerned with the plight of others, without some level of affect on their personal lives. Forget immutable quality. And when I say unconcerned, I really mean don't give a **** enough to do anything. People can say words, and have feelings about them, but action is much rarer. It's just general indifference.

Otherwise, your issue is with the way he worded his article? So using anecdotes to relate behavior his readership is familiar with and using that for them to self reflect on their own behavior is less impact-full than using the correct words to describe the behavior. I disagree.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:17 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm pretty sure you can't support that claim, but even if it were true, that's no excuse to insult white people as a whole, including those who don't dismiss the claim or who have never participated in any sort of oppression whatsoever.
White bigots are all alike.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:20 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
By clearly stating that straight black males are the white people of black people, lol. This implies that only white people are capable of dismissing racism and ignorance, when history and fact show us otherwise.
Not really, but it does heap the stereotype upon them.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:20 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
But this approach points out that it's the exact same behavior that these guys complain about when white people do it. There are black folks, right now, tweeting about Jemele Hill that, if you change to a white avatar, you would *swear* were from those "alt-white" creeps.
One can point out hypocrisy without resorting to making identity-behavior conflations.

Probably more effectively.

If I don't take the time to properly point out that crime statistics are themselves a result of institutional oppression and the underlying socio-economic ethnic disparities, any attempt on my part to discuss that topic are not going to be heard.

This kind of academic rigor is not expected going the other direction, to the point even that the exact same reaction that would generate from my discussing "black crime" is itself described as yet more evidence of my bias and privilege, etc.

If one aspires to the philosophies of justice and equality, then they shouldn't use the language of denigration, shame, and oppression that they claim to be against (because they are the foundation of dehumanizing others to excuse potentially more than just verbal abuse).
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:22 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
First, and hopefully not to get off topic, MOST people are unconcerned with the plight of others, without some level of affect on their personal lives. Forget immutable quality. And when I say unconcerned, I really mean don't give a **** enough to do anything. People can say words, and have feelings about them, but action is much rarer. It's just general indifference.

Otherwise, your issue is with the way he worded his article? So using anecdotes to relate behavior his readership is familiar with and using that for them to self reflect on their own behavior is less impact-full than using the correct words to describe the behavior. I disagree.
Rule of so. I have no issue with anecdotes.

I have an issue with using an identity label as an adjective describing a behavior.

ETA: also, perfectly in line with the outlook of the article, I do equally criticize making identity-behavior conflations regardless of if it is my identity group or not.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 22nd September 2017 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:24 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not really, but it does heap the stereotype upon them.
It's the norm these days. When in doubt, blame whitey, he's usually guilty of something.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:25 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
As I've said, many times, this definition is ultimately incoherent - there are plenty of situations where a minority has power over a white person in any event, and anyone who seriously tells me that the NBPP or the black Israelites aren't deeply racist will get the side-eye of the year from me. Difference is, most of them are just standing around shouting. Wrong, yes, but not seriously, *financially* harmful.
I just want to clarify that I wasn't saying that you specifically believe it. It's just the sort of nonsense that's often said in the same breath as some of the claims we're seeing in this thread.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:27 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
First, and hopefully not to get off topic, MOST people are unconcerned with the plight of others, without some level of affect on their personal lives.
Good. So we can agree that it has nothing to do with being white?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:28 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Ya know, sometimes stereotypes and cliches are stereotypes and cliches because they accurately reflect a condition.

Are you saying that you're unaware that black people feel that white people are and have been their oppressors? Or are you saying "Golly gee, Miss Brooks, wouldn't it be swell if we all got along better"?
Have been? No doubt. Are? No. Individuals and some groups, sure. And some level of racist/sexism/whateverism between some groups will be around till the end of time. Lumping all whites into the insult passively inherent in the title is the kind of thing that IMO fires up a sidebar.

Quote:
Racial healing isn't necessary. It's never going to heal without leaving a big ol' noticeable scar, anyway. What is needed is education.
Healing is always necessary, unless you're into festering wounds. Agreed on education, in particular in poor school systems. Give all what they need to succeed.

Quote:
The old standby tu hom (a mixture of tu quoque and ad hom) defense. Do you think the author of that piece isn't aware that the misogynists he's addressing as a problem probably carry other baggage. If he wrote an article on stamping out pickpocketing would you assume he's in favor of driveby shootings. He's addressing an issue, a single issue.



First, you and I do not both smile and say anything remotely similar on this topic. The article doesn't concern whitey. It's for black men to read and hopefully understand. You taking umbrage on behalf of the white race is of zero interest to them.
He addresses an issue: misogyny exists within the black community, gets little attention and needs to be addressed. Well and good. But he frames it by lumping together and casually and needlessly insulting whitey, not well and good.

My 'umbrage' may be better expressed this way: turn the argument around and plug in a hackneyed racial stereotype, like so:

'Ya know, white supremacists are the Black People of White People'.

Would you bring up a sidebar argument to the inherent assumption there?

Quote:
The sub-textual jive is from the title of the article being cited. It's also in the text of the article. Where the hell do you see "sub-text". I believe we're reading two different articles. Try throwing away your hiliter and reading all the words, not just the ones you want to react to.
The point of the article is laudable enough, no question. The flaming title and baggage the author flippantly tosses in is unnecessarily insulting. Is it so unreasonable to talk about an issue without passive-aggressive hate wormed in?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:36 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I just want to clarify that I wasn't saying that you specifically believe it. It's just the sort of nonsense that's often said in the same breath as some of the claims we're seeing in this thread.
Ah OK, we're good then, apologies for misunderstanding you
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:37 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
Really? You might even say that? Would you please explain exactly what that privilege is? I'll wait here.
I like your question. I always like to add this one.

Besides origin and enforcement name me 5 major differences between "privilege" as used, and the Christian concept of sin.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:40 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Ya know, sometimes stereotypes and cliches are stereotypes and cliches because they accurately reflect a condition.

Are you saying that you're unaware that black people feel that white people are and have been their oppressors? Or are you saying "Golly gee, Miss Brooks, wouldn't it be swell if we all got along better"?

Racial healing isn't necessary. It's never going to heal without leaving a big ol' noticeable scar, anyway. What is needed is education.



The old standby tu hom (a mixture of tu quoque and ad hom) defense. Do you think the author of that piece isn't aware that the misogynists he's addressing as a problem probably carry other baggage. If he wrote an article on stamping out pickpocketing would you assume he's in favor of driveby shootings. He's addressing an issue, a single issue.



First, you and I do not both smile and say anything remotely similar on this topic. The article doesn't concern whitey. It's for black men to read and hopefully understand. You taking umbrage on behalf of the white race is of zero interest to them.

The sub-textual jive is from the title of the article being cited. It's also in the text of the article. Where the hell do you see "sub-text". I believe we're reading two different articles. Try throwing away your hiliter and reading all the words, not just the ones you want to react to.
Since when are black people one lump group with the same wants and opinions?

Oh yeah any time before about 1970 and now. The only way to not be racist is to see all members of every group as one person.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:43 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
It kind of is, and that's not ideal, but few things are.
I suppose this terminology is useful though.
By calling straight black men who discriminate against women and gays in their community 'the white people of black people', it immediately hits home that their attitude towards (sub)minorities in their own communities makes those people feel the same way that (some) white people can make black people feel by being (consciously or subconsciously) racist, dismissive or unaware of the relative 'privilege' of their own group.


It's an appeal to emotion, but it was meant to be one.

ETA: And no, that does not mean that I don't think the comparison is racist, or that I think 'reverse' racism is OK, or that we should continue to stereotype groups of people if it helps us make a point.
But I do think that people who only take away 'that's mean to white people' from this are missing the point.
Why is it when discussing anything else us skeptics know emotion is not the basis for a good arguement, but throw race in and suddenly logic does not apply.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:47 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't care about the point. I care that white people are treated as the enemy. That's the sort of attitute that just stokes the fires of racial hatred.
And that's the thing, I could care less about people (incorrectly I might add) saying I suck because of my race. What I care about is that this crap is making the racial divide larger and larger.

Ever been to a bar and some tiny guy starts trying to cause crap with your biggest friend? It sucks, it makes you feel crappy, not because you are going to be negatively affected but because you know what is going to happen to the little guy, and is all for no reason other than proving who has the biggest balls.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:51 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Well this devolved rather quickly into 'whataboutery' and 'not all X people'..
I'm sure A klan member in the 30s would be saying the same thing.

"I don't know why they are getting so uppity, I know there are a couple good n-words"

But it's okay when we do it.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 08:55 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
No. It plainly states that the dismissals used by white people to refute black claims of racism are directly reflected in the way in which black men deny the experiences of black women.

Why does that make people so defensive? What is so damaging about that comparison, i don't personally understand.
Why do black people get so defensive when I say they are all criminals? I mean obviously I don't mean every single black person.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:07 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Why only white people? And you wonder why people get defensive. It's because they get sick and tired of these race-bait articles being thrown about. And you were surprised when you got the reaction that you surely knew you'd get? Yeah, no.
What do you mean why only white people. The entire point is that the behavior they abhor in (some) white people that dismiss their experiences with racism is how (some) straight black males treat the experiences of black women. The behavior is shared and that is pointed out, specifically to nudge the reader to introspection on how they perceive others.

As to the reaction here, it's not what I would expect. In an article about black women, I think Mumbles is the only one to reference their plight. In an article that has other points to discuss, only the title is being spoken about. A number of people here have an issue with the title, refer to it as racist, and yet I haven't even seen an argument about if the premise against black men is racist. Is catcalling worse is the black community? Are black women sexualized more or at a younger age than others?

Some view it as furthering the 'black men are dangerous' position. Some view the difference in numbers regarding sexual assault and rape in the black community compared to others being based on poverty as opposed to culture. Or could discuss the backlash and responses that reference everything but the experience of black women.

There is actually other **** to discuss beyond the title, but it seems none of that stuff is worth talking about. Because some author used 'white people' and the behavior black people have experienced from them negatively. Guess there are no bigger issues here.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:20 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
...There is actually other **** to discuss beyond the title, but it seems none of that stuff is worth talking about. Because some author used 'white people' and the behavior black people have experienced from them negatively. Guess there are no bigger issues here.
The discussion of under-recognized misogyny is one thing. The author's unique spin is to frame the discussion by saying 'here's a hateful way of thinking about it. You know, so you can relate to it better'.

Yeah, this POV packs more punch than the subject matter.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:23 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
What do you mean why only white people. The entire point is that the behavior they abhor in (some) white people that dismiss their experiences with racism is how (some) straight black males treat the experiences of black women. The behavior is shared and that is pointed out, specifically to nudge the reader to introspection on how they perceive others.
You keep asking me why I type "why only white people?" when this is what the article is making clear. Again, it implies that this behaviour that they abhor is something only white people are capable of. It makes a point that is needless, considering the fact that all people are capable of being dismissal and ignorant. There are easier and less seemingly bigoted ways to for the OP to make their point.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
As to the reaction here, it's not what I would expect. In an article about black women, I think Mumbles is the only one to reference their plight. In an article that has other points to discuss, only the title is being spoken about. A number of people here have an issue with the title, refer to it as racist, and yet I haven't even seen an argument about if the premise against black men is racist. Is catcalling worse is the black community? Are black women sexualized more or at a younger age than others?
Of course the premise re: black men is racist, everything that anyone could possibly ever say about a black man is surely going to be racist.

As for the black women, their plight is one shared by many women all over the world of all colours. In many countries, white girls are sought after for sexual reasons, and treated like trophies. Much like bigotry and generalization goes both ways, so does the mistreatment of women. It's not exclusive to any black community. This is just another intentionally controversial article for the sake of it.


Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Some view it as furthering the 'black men are dangerous' position. Some view the difference in numbers regarding sexual assault and rape in the black community compared to others being based on poverty as opposed to culture. Or could discuss the backlash and responses that reference everything but the experience of black women.

There is actually other **** to discuss beyond the title, but it seems none of that stuff is worth talking about. Because some author used 'white people' and the behavior black people have experienced from them negatively. Guess there are no bigger issues here.
The entire article highlights one group of people as being victimized, when all across the world, people of every colour share the same bloody issues, it's just that people add more weight to the plight of the black community. It's intentionally constructed to bait the sort of argument that is taking place in this thread.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Why is it when discussing anything else us skeptics know emotion is not the basis for a good arguement, but throw race in and suddenly logic does not apply.
How did you get any of that from my post?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 09:30 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
How did you get any of that from my post?
I read it?
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