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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:16 PM   #121
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
He doesn't say "dirty ass", and yet again, yes, far too many white people do exactly the things he describes. Again, y'all are doing exactly what he describes, right now, by making an article addressed to black men, and acting like he's personally insulting you. It's an accurate description of what you're doing. If he claimed "all whites are racists", yes, that would itself be racist. But - and this is key - he clearly states the opposite.

He does say that all have benefitted, which I don't know about, but racism in government programs is *clearly* the reason for the 20-1 wealth gap in the US.
Maybe that's cos y'all blacks seem to make up random facts such as far too many white people do exactly the things he describes.

If it was the other way around, y'all would be flapping.

Just imagine of this article placed the shoe on the other foot, all of this reasoning you're doing here would be AWOL.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:16 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Change males to blacks and tell me if the statement doesn't piss you off.
Well you can't use just blacks, but I see your point, and have modified it accordingly:

I become annoyed when individual black males take personal exception and center themselves in any conversation about misogyny, claiming to be one of the “good ones” and wishing for us to stop and acknowledge their goodness.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:17 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The analogy you're so angry about does exactly this...
No it does not, it is essentially "guys suck". With a grading system putting black men above white men.


Essentially "we are bad but not as bad as them. ".
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:18 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
As far as what I said before I'm just amazed you guys don't seem to have huge problems staying on topic while debating holocaust deniers and stuff but as soon as someone says something un-pc about white people y'all instantly derail to talking about that.
I don't believe I've ever been involved in a holocaust denial thread, so it seems you're confusing a lot of people with a lot of other people.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:18 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
At a certain point, it is.
It really isn't.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:18 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
More evidence your method is pissing people off.

Why do you hold a grudge against white people? Because you have taken a lot of ****. What makes you think that by doing the same thing you will get a different result?
Well, actually, I don't. I know a lot of white people that are wonderful, including on this board.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:20 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
and about 36 years of being around white people. the stories I've been told by nearly every other black person. Online gaming, and many companies' tolerance of the raging racism on their fanbase. Donald Trump's election.
So, stories some black dudes told you is now factual evidence that whites are generally mostly dismissive of the plight of black people?

The irony in that is immense.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:21 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Maybe that's cos y'all blacks seem to make up random facts such as far too many white people do exactly the things he describes.

If it was the other way around, y'all would be flapping.

Just imagine of this article placed the shoe on the other foot, all of this reasoning you're doing here would be AWOL.
Yet again, the analogy that I Aprove Of says, correctly, that many straight black men do this to other black people, and I've admitted to once being that exact person, myself.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:22 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, actually, I don't. I know a lot of white people that are wonderful, including on this board.
It's just the rest of them, ain't it? Damn crackers.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:22 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, actually, I don't. I know a lot of white people that are wonderful, including on this board.
You flatter me!
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:24 PM   #131
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Anyway, this has been enlightening. I'm off out now to have some drinks, flaunt my privilege and oppress some poor black guys, as is our nature.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:25 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well you can't use just blacks, but I see your point, and have modified it accordingly:

I become annoyed when individual black males take personal exception and center themselves in any conversation about misogyny, claiming to be one of the “good ones” and wishing for us to stop and acknowledge their goodness.
But you still frame it as something you agree with on its face.

Think of an article that says "blacks need to stop raping our women". And think of how much of an ******* I'd come off as if I defended it by saying "I hate when individual blacks want me to praise them for not raping women. "


You set up a *********** horrible stereotype, and if someone tells you it doesn't apply to them you say they are ******** for not taking **** for other people's actions.

I am responsible for my actions, no one else's if you want to **** talk a misogynist go find one, don't take it out on some random with a cock.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:25 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Yet again, the analogy that I Aprove Of says, correctly, that many straight black men do this to other black people, and I've admitted to once being that exact person, myself.
I become annoyed when individual black males center themselves in any conversation about misogyny, claiming to be one of the “good ones” and wishing for us to stop and acknowledge their goodness.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:26 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, actually, I don't. I know a lot of white people that are wonderful, including on this board.
Some of your best friends are white, right?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:31 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You flatter me!
You joke, but I do actually include you among them. We argue and disagree, sure, but that's basically what the internet is for.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:32 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
It's just the rest of them, ain't it? Damn crackers.
You're the one that keeps using racial slurs, not me.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:39 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
You're the one that keeps using racial slurs, not me.
No, you are not drunk uncle at a family gathering kinda racist, just had a Confederate flag in the closet and talks about "those people" racist.

See you can call out ******** and not paint an entire group. I know most black people don't think like you, and im not going to say they do just to make my point sound better.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:39 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
So, stories some black dudes told you is now factual evidence that whites are generally mostly dismissive of the plight of black people?

The irony in that is immense.
57% of white people who voted, voted for someone who, among *many* other flaws, is a brazen white supremacist and surrounded him self with various bigots and white nationalists, in the *presidential election*, over quite a few other, clearly superior, opponents. Evan McMullen would have made a great conservative president, and he was on my ballot at least. That's a lot of the voting public (but obviously doesn't include non-voters)

Strange how people keep missing that part.

And yet again, the jump from "too many" to "generally mostly".
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:42 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
57% of white people who voted, voted for someone who, among *many* other flaws, is a brazen white supremacist and surrounded him self with various bigots and white nationalists, in the *presidential election*, over quite a few other, clearly superior, opponents. Evan McMullen would have made a great conservative president, and he was on my ballot at least. That's a lot of the voting public (but obviously doesn't include non-voters)

Strange how people keep missing that part.

And yet again, the jump from "too many" to "generally mostly".
And where did this sudden change come from?

It couldn't possibly be almost a decade of hearing white people used as an insult.

Btw, none of those voters were black?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 12:42 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
57% of white people who voted, voted for someone who, among *many* other flaws, is a brazen white supremacist and surrounded him self with various bigots and white nationalists, in the *presidential election*, over quite a few other, clearly superior, opponents. Evan McMullen would have made a great conservative president, and he was on my ballot at least. That's a lot of the voting public (but obviously doesn't include non-voters)

Strange how people keep missing that part.

And yet again, the jump from "too many" to "generally mostly".
Trump voters are the black people of white people
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:06 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think it s a clever headline. it is good use of repetition.
/yawn
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:16 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post


I am the white people of everybody.

Sorry!
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:17 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The article actually says that no, not all white people are racist, but a lot are dismissive of claims of racism (which is true - again, the folks around Dylann Roof, the mom of that guy that plowed his car into people at that clan rally, many people in every thread about police shootings here), or make themselves the center of the conversation when nobody actually called them racist (true - this exact thread).
One does not have to be called racist to take offense. The implication, rather, was that by using "white people" as a denigrating term in and of itself all moral authority on the subject of equality among those of differing immutable qualities completely evaporates.

Also, I've seen this "making themselves the center of the conversation" crap growing lately and let me head this one right off.

Being involved in the conversation is not the same as centering the conversation on oneself.

This is just another gutless, cowardly way of trying to shame someone into silencing their dissenting opinion when you don't have a substantive rebuttal by suggesting their participation is inherently amoral.

ETA: I think there's also some hesitancy to go into the context of the article because of the historical results of someone of my complexion being critical of straight black male behaviors (and regardless of who does it and whether you nod in agreement with it or balk at it, it is stereotyping). So we're left with only being able to remark "oh look, someone who has the proper "identity credentials" is now addressing this topic...aaaaand they ********** the dog. Great. <sigh>"

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 22nd September 2017 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:23 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
You joke, but I do actually include you among them.
Hey, now let's not be nasty. I am definitely not wonderful.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:50 PM   #145
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The most activist-y of my friends now tend to post articles like "gay men don't do enough for transgender community", "how white feminists repeatedly betray women of color", or "toxic masculinity runs rampant in latinex culture."

I first experienced this stuff during Occupy, a jockeying for mindspace to assert one's own struggles as the preeminent struggle to focus on, eventually to the point of making any other issues out to be hostile and selfish demands.

This is why suggestions that the left is magically going to get its act together by 2018 (or even 2020) are a joke to me.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 02:53 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The article actually says that no, not all white people are racist
"Some of my best friends are black!" It's a fig leaf and you know it. The article depends on a stereotype for its effect.

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make themselves the center of the conversation when nobody actually called them racist
Have you actually read the article? Its premise requires putting white people squarely in the middle of the conversation.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:36 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
One does not have to be called racist to take offense. The implication, rather, was that by using "white people" as a denigrating term in and of itself all moral authority on the subject of equality among those of differing immutable qualities completely evaporates.
It's not actually being used as a denigrating term if it's accurate. And yes, some white people are racist, and some do dismiss obvious racist claims, or try to get brownie points by stating that their "one of the good ones." It's no more racist than noting that many black communities are high-crime - that's absolutely true, and many black people are trying to address it.

Now, if you say that this sort of thing is due to "genetics" and the like, *now* you're being a racist.

But the article's point is that, it's absurd when straight cis black men to object to this from white people, but then do the exact same thing to black women and LGBT folk.

Quote:
Also, I've seen this "making themselves the center of the conversation" crap growing lately and let me head this one right off.

Being involved in the conversation is not the same as centering the conversation on oneself.

This is just another gutless, cowardly way of trying to shame someone into silencing their dissenting opinion when you don't have a substantive rebuttal by suggesting their participation is inherently amoral.
The problem with this assertion is...it's an accurate description of what some of you have been doing, in this thread. Your objecting to a depiction of *some* white people...by doing the exact thing that the description states that some white people do. That's just bad strategy.

Quote:
ETA: I think there's also some hesitancy to go into the context of the article because of the historical results of someone of my complexion being critical of straight black male behaviors (and regardless of who does it and whether you nod in agreement with it or balk at it, it is stereotyping). So we're left with only being able to remark "oh look, someone who has the proper "identity credentials" is now addressing this topic...aaaaand they ********** the dog. Great. <sigh>"
Well, it's true that there are people who do that, so I can sympathize. But note that I haven't objected when non-black folks have gone directly at it.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:52 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"oh look, someone who has the proper "identity credentials" is now addressing this topic...aaaaand they ********** the dog. Great. <sigh>"
I'm going to remember this one.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:53 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's not actually being used as a denigrating term if it's accurate.
Wow.

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And yes, some white people are racist, and some do dismiss obvious racist claims, or try to get brownie points by stating that their "one of the good ones."
Apparently so do black males when discussing women. Apparently so do gay men when discussing "problematic" attitudes towards the gender-queer, and...

So why is the "objecting to broad brush" reply the "white" reply?

Wait, why is objecting to broad brushes a bad thing at all?

Quote:
It's no more racist than noting that many black communities are high-crime - that's absolutely true, and many black people are trying to address it.
If I discuss high crime in black communities without taking care to make it abundantly clear the "black" and "crime" are not synonymous, then I get objections.

You're right, this issue is "no more racist" than that. So I'm being consistent and you're the one imposing a double standard.

Quote:
Now, if you say that this sort of thing is due to "genetics" and the like, *now* you're being a racist.
That would be also racist and probably more blatantly racist, but it is not the minimum bar for it, sorry.

Quote:
But the article's point is that, it's absurd when straight cis black men anyone objects to this from white people others, but then do the exact same thing to black women and LGBT folk anyone else.
FTFY.

Quote:
The problem with this assertion is...it's an accurate description of what some of you have been doing, in this thread. Your objecting to a depiction of *some* white people...by doing the exact thing that the description states that some white people do. That's just bad strategy.
Because it's an observation about what people do when hasty generalizations are tossed around.

Is there something wrong with objecting to hasty generalizations?

Is objecting to hasty generalizations something exclusive or more likely among white people?

White people are more capable of spotting logical fallacies?

Dude, that's racist! WTF?!

So reported!

Quote:
Well, it's true that there are people who do that, so I can sympathize. But note that I haven't objected when non-black folks have gone directly at it.
I'm sorry, did you just say "yeah, but I don't act that way"?

I mean...really?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 03:57 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's not actually being used as a denigrating term if it's accurate. And yes, some white people are racist, and some do dismiss obvious racist claims, or try to get brownie points by stating that their "one of the good ones." It's no more racist than noting that many black communities are high-crime - that's absolutely true, and many black people are trying to address it.

Now, if you say that this sort of thing is due to "genetics" and the like, *now* you're being a racist.

But the article's point is that, it's absurd when straight cis black men to object to this from white people, but then do the exact same thing to black women and LGBT folk.



The problem with this assertion is...it's an accurate description of what some of you have been doing, in this thread. Your objecting to a depiction of *some* white people...by doing the exact thing that the description states that some white people do. That's just bad strategy.



Well, it's true that there are people who do that, so I can sympathize. But note that I haven't objected when non-black folks have gone directly at it.
Again this is no different than me saying "black people need to learn to follow the law".

The thing is, even if it was true 80 or 90 per cent of black people were horrible criminals I'd never say such ****. A person is judged by his or her character not the society they were raised, not the color of their skin.

And I wouldn't expect people to just eat **** when I talk about them because their ancestors were ******** to my ancestors. (And I'd have a good case to, if I was an *******)

Sorry man but as someone who would rank pretty high on the victim scale, this is dirty pool. You don't get a free pass to kick someone in the nuts just because they are bigger than you.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:00 PM   #151
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And while we are on the subject is never say something like "crime in the black community" skin color isn't the *********** problem, and if I act like it is, even I would think I'm an *******.

I'd actually look at the factors leading to the crime and address that. Silly *********** me I guess.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:18 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And while we are on the subject is never say something like "crime in the black community" skin color isn't the *********** problem, and if I act like it is, even I would think I'm an *******.

I'd actually look at the factors leading to the crime and address that. Silly *********** me I guess.
Actually, my real objection here to "the black community" is that it's too broad. I live in a highly black, low-crime area, although I try to do mentoring for inner-city kids. But I grew up in the crack era - and I had actual gang members who "protected me" - but wouldn't let me join - they knew they were doing the wrong things, but thought I was "going to make it", where "Stop Snitchin" originated, and people had good reason not to like the cops.

(And it's why I discuss things like police reform, lead abatement, and ending the "drug war".)

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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:32 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Again this is no different than me saying "black people need to learn to follow the law."
Just add a "some" to the front and...yeah, it's true. And it's true of some people of every race - but again, the US is still a highly segregated country, so when I say this, I'm mostly talking to black people in the neighborhoods *I'm* in.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 04:40 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Just add a "some" to the front and...yeah, it's true. And it's true of some people of every race - but again, the US is still a highly segregated country, so when I say this, I'm mostly talking to black people in the neighborhoods *I'm* in.
But man, what would the use of me bring race into it be? I could say some Asians, some natives, some white people, on down the line. It does nothing to add to the issue of stopping crime.

Once you have to say "some"you have removed the need for the qualifier after it and should find a better one. Better than some black or some white , wouldn't it by fast be better to say "all those in high crime areas" and even then, if someone said "I live in a high crime area and I do all these things already" I wouldn't **** talk them and say they were making the conversation about them id say "awesome, the world needs more folks like you. ".

Why would I react differently? All it would do is piss that person off and make them less likely to listen to me.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:40 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I noticed this article recently and saw a bit of backlash against it's premise. While it's title is a bit over the top, I found the premise and the backlash/defense against it's positions interesting.

It very much mirrors the perceived cop outs by 'white people' in regards to privilege, although with some minor differences. To me, generally, white privilege denial stems from an individuals circumstances and experiences, while the rebuttals I've read use race wide data to refute any power structure allowing black men to exert their male privilege over black women.

By and large though, what I've pulled most from it is individuals inability to really view the plight of others through their eyes. The idea of privilege seems to always bring about 'what-aboutism's' as an immediate defense mechanism against any possible lowering of one's own success and accomplishments. It's interesting to view.

Anyhow, just my take. Found it interesting and a good push for introspection in regards to these things. How about you guys.
I haven't read this thread yet, and I expect it to go downhill. So before I get there, I'll give my thoughts.

I found this a fairly good article. It touches on the dynamics of privilege, and although it focuses on a particular intersection, it serves well to highlight the complexity - and the blindness - of privilege. I can see how many people might react to the framing of the article, and turn it around to address victimization and 'oh poor me'... but I'd like to think that the author has a somewhat broader view. Perhaps not, but that certainly shouldn't prevent any reader from being able to extrapolate.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:51 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Your points are strong. I'm sure my argument is well-worn on the forum, but...the White People of Black People??? That's a vile expression, fairly oozing with stereotypical racial hatred. To keep this as short as possible, the endgame is that we're not going to have any measurable level of (much needed) racial healing if undercurrent thought like that goes unchallenged. Try to use the Black People of White People in a PC sentence. Level the playing field and get realistic about it.
But effective at getting your attention, right? PC be damned. If it gets people to read the article, and at some point once their ire has cooled, actually think about the point being made, then it has accomplished it's purpose.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
The article goes on further to describe how a lone black person walks into an all-white bar and feels every eye upon him. Boo-freaking-hoo. I welcome the author to New Jersey, where we can tour some black-only establishments and the lone whitey would pray to god to be only stared at.
Oh, so you can empathize with the feeling? Why don't you put that to use instead of getting defensive about it?

I grew up in a mutli-racial household. I was lucky; we were military which is pretty diverse in terms of culture. I didn't have to experience or witness any sort of racism until we moved off base when I was in high school. But I did experience discomfort when we went to family reunions, and I and my mother were two of three white people in a gathering of several hundred black people. It's uncomfortable to be the odd man out. It makes you self-conscious and defensive, even if there's no direct threat. I only experience that once in a while. Now imagine if that were the norm. Imagine if that were what you experienced most of the time. Because that's what it's like for black people. And for gay people. And for transgender people. And in a large number of situations, that's what it's like for women.

Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
ETA: Tl;dr- hold everyone to the same standard. No more accepting subtextual jive in the OP title
A noble goal... but how do you get to the same standard in the future if you won't acknowledge that different standards exist today?
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Old 22nd September 2017, 05:55 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
It kind of is, and that's not ideal, but few things are.
I suppose this terminology is useful though.
By calling straight black men who discriminate against women and gays in their community 'the white people of black people', it immediately hits home that their attitude towards (sub)minorities in their own communities makes those people feel the same way that (some) white people can make black people feel by being (consciously or subconsciously) racist, dismissive or unaware of the relative 'privilege' of their own group.


It's an appeal to emotion, but it was meant to be one.

ETA: And no, that does not mean that I don't think the comparison is racist, or that I think 'reverse' racism is OK, or that we should continue to stereotype groups of people if it helps us make a point.
But I do think that people who only take away 'that's mean to white people' from this are missing the point.
Yes.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:04 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't care about the point. I care that white people are treated as the enemy. That's the sort of attitute that just stokes the fires of racial hatred.
I don't think that article treated white people as the enemy. I agree that treating any group of relatively privileged people as an enemy is counter-productive. The reference in this case helps to drive home the point that all privilege is relative, and that one group of un-privileged people can often have quite a lot of privilege relative to a different group. Most black people recognize that white privilege exists - the challenge is getting white people to also recognize that fact without getting defensive about it. I have no objection to the author using that resonance to extend the topic to another area where men are blind to the plight of women. That particular intersection of race and gender allows the audience (black men, not white people, btw) to have some empathy and find a common ground to face the fact that they too posses privilege, and that they too are blind to it.

Almost all of the privileges and the insecurities he highlights with respect to black women exist for women, regardless of race.The fear of being followed, the concern about rape, and the outrage of being told what a woman should have done to prevent herself from being abused - that's all true for women in general. But by appealing to the shared disparity of race, he creates a bridge for this particular subset of men who happen to also be black.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:14 PM   #159
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So yeah. Four pages in. I'm not surprised it went downhill, but I am surprised at the direction. What we've got here is an article about male privilege... that has prompted a thread in defense of white men. The entire argument is now about race. So... where does that leave women? Let alone black women? I guess our perspectives just don't count... again.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 06:20 PM   #160
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black men are the Irish people of black people.

Irish person: wtf does that mean?
Smarmy black writer: it isn't about you, Captain O'McSnowflake.

fin
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