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Old 25th September 2017, 10:38 AM   #201
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But are they the people the article is written for? For the authors intent how does it matter if white people read it or not? It isn't written for them.

It would be like an article intended to prevent Muslim youth from becoming terrorists is palatable to Mormons. The people who seem to be most upset by it are totally outside the group it is talking about and addressing.
So if it's not intended for white people then they can't be offended? lol.

That's just more callous, IMO.

When you write such a poorly thought-out headline such as that, you can't act surprised when a bunch of people take offense.

It's like writing an email to someone about you, and when you find out, you get upset. It's like, well you weren't supposed to see it!
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:41 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly, sexism does not exist and has no negative impact on any woman at all.
Here's a hint: lack of oppression does not mean lack of sexism.

It's really getting adorable. Whenever I see your name I can know for a fact you're going to peddle a strawman. What's even more hilarious is that after all these years you still think you're making a point by lying all the time like this.
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:45 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Here's a hint: lack of oppression does not mean lack of sexism.
It just means that sexism has to have no negative impact on them. So that things like lower performance ratings are not detrimental to their career. Or that would be a handicap that women face that men do not and hence a privilege men have. As that can not exist therefor there can be no negative impact from this supposed sexism you think exists.

Modern sexism can not have any negative effects on any women or else there would be an advantage for not being subjected to it, a privilege if you will.
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:49 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It just means that sexism has to have no negative impact on them.
I suggest you brush up on your English. Sexism necessarily has impacts, but it does not make it oppression.

Here, let's make it simple: how about you give me your definition of "oppression"?

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Modern sexism can not have any negative effects on any women or else there would be an advantage for not being subjected to it, a privilege if you will.
Does that mean that you also decry female privilege?
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:49 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What a strange question. Who said it was wrong?
...snip...
What did your comment then mean if not a criticism?
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:49 AM   #206
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This concept of American white privilege must surely confuse a good many older British people, who struggled for everything they had, unless they were fortunate enough to be born into wealth.

It also is surely a baffling non-reality for the many homeless white people who lay on every other step in many of our major cities, including my own.

It most certainly must irritate the many white people in the Dole queues of the UK, who are currently without work, to learn that they are supposed to be jumped ahead of the rest, according to some unrealistic banter from the Social Justice Department.
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:50 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What did your comment then mean if not a criticism?
I didn't say trying to get an emotional response is wrong, nor have I criticised it. Where'd you get that idea (citation)?
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:53 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I didn't say trying to get an emotional response is wrong, nor have I criticised it. Where'd you get that idea (citation)?
What did your comment then mean if not a criticism?
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:54 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
This concept of American white privilege must surely confuse a good many older British people, who struggled for everything they had, unless they were fortunate enough to be born into wealth.

It also is surely a baffling non-reality for the many homeless white people who lay on every other step in many of our major cities, including my own.

It most certainly must irritate the many white people in the Dole queues of the UK, who are currently without work, to learn that they are supposed to be jumped ahead of the rest, according to some unrealistic banter from the Social Justice Department.
What does this have to do with the article?
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:54 AM   #210
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People tend to not give a **** about the realities of poverty. They view poverty as something that exists in a far-away land, one which you help by sending a few quid to every month.

In reality, if we look hard enough, poverty is something we see on our own streets, and it ain't exclusive to black people.

This concept of "privilege" is entirely born of unrealistic assessments of the world around us, and our own guilt and shame for things we've never actually done, but feel we must pay for from now until the end.

Not me, Kemosabe. You show me one "white privilege" and I'll show you two white blokes who don't have it.
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:56 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What does this have to do with the article?
Are you not following this thread, then, Darat?

It was a further general response to several questions I was asked.

I'd like to add that if the thread were intending to be solely about the article, then the emphasis would not have been put on the headline itself, so all of this talk about people not discussing the article is rather funny, considering the fact that the point seems to have been to get people to talk about the headline.
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Last edited by Gilbert Syndrome; 25th September 2017 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:56 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What did your comment then mean if not a criticism?
I just told you in the post prior to this one. The part you snipped, remember?

You told Sadhatter to put his feelings of offense aside. I pointed out hat offense was the whole point of the title and some of its content. You admitted that they were looking for an emotional response, so why must Sadhatter put his feelings aside?
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:57 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I suggest you brush up on your English. Sexism necessarily has impacts, but it does not make it oppression.

Here, let's make it simple: how about you give me your definition of "oppression"?
You are moving the goal posts, I was responding to a statement of yours about the lack of male privilege, which means that sexism must not negatively impact women. Then you shift it to oppression, why? We were talking about privilege now it is oppression.

So which does not exist? Privilege does not require there to be oppression just systemic biases that disadvantage individuals.


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Does that mean that you also decry female privilege?
Yes, but there really isn't very many situations where women are privileged over men.
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:58 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I just told you in the post prior to this one. The part you snipped, remember?

You told Sadhatter to put his feelings of offense aside. I pointed out hat offense was the whole point of the title and some of its content. You admitted that they were looking for an emotional response, so why must Sadhatter put his feelings aside?
You make no sense at all.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:00 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
This concept of American white privilege must surely confuse a good many older British people, who struggled for everything they had, unless they were fortunate enough to be born into wealth.
See it doesn't mean they didn't, just that their struggle was easier and they got farther than those who did not have such privileges. In the US being white is an advantage compared to being black, but that doesn't mean that the white person will succeed and the black person will not. It means that the black person faces something like a handicap in sports. That they have to be even better to get the same results.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:01 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are moving the goal posts, I was responding to a statement of yours about the lack of male privilege, which means that sexism must not negatively impact women.
Again, that is a non sequitur. See below.

Quote:
Then you shift it to oppression, why?
Did you not spot my mention of oppression in that post? Why did you notice it now... of course, if I were to conclude that this is because you didn't read that post fully, it would certainly explain the strawmen.

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So which does not exist?
Oppression and privilege both. Sexism and privilege are different things, especially the way the latter word is used nowadays.

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Yes, but there really isn't very many situations where women are privileged over men.
That's bias talking. There are plenty, just as there are plenty of situations where men are advantaged. However, most of men's advantages simply stem from biological realities (strength comes to mind), while women's are often culturally-enforced (child custody, for example).
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:02 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You make no sense at all.
What part of the post confuses you? Did you not tell Sadhatter to put his feelings of offense aside? Did you not agree that the article relies on such feelings to make a point? Do you not see the contradiction, here?

It seems quite simple to me.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:03 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
See it doesn't mean they didn't, just that their struggle was easier and they got farther than those who did not have such privileges. In the US being white is an advantage compared to being black, but that doesn't mean that the white person will succeed and the black person will not. It means that the black person faces something like a handicap in sports. That they have to be even better to get the same results.
Firstly, how do you honestly equate a struggle? How on earth do you compare the relative struggles of two different people?

Secondly, to even claim that our ancestors had an "easier struggle" kind of implies that you either come from an actually privileged background, or you're totally clueless as to the history of your city/town and its people.

I'm not sure if anyone in my city had an "easy" time doing anything, mate. It's the same for a good many city in the UK, which were poverty-stricken hellholes for anyone who didn't have a silver spoon in their mouth at birth.

That's like claiming that a man being shot in the head had it easy because another man got hung.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:08 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post

Oppression and privilege both. Sexism and privilege are different things, especially the way the latter word is used nowadays.
Clearly you would never have been negatively impacted by sexism if it had been applied so there for you would not be advantaged relative to a woman in otherwise identical situations. Sexism has no real effects and can safely be ignored. That is the clear message you are sending.

Quote:
That's bias talking. There are plenty, just as there are plenty of situations where men are advantaged. However, most of men's advantages simply stem from biological realities (strength comes to mind), while women's are often culturally-enforced (child custody, for example).
And their manly strength is why they get better performance evaluations as teachers. So manly that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b054a0ea6a4066

Totally nothing sexist about only respecting men there. Not a privilege for the man, as the man he deserves to be taken seriously more so than his female coworker.

It is like trying to say that racism hurts people just because black people get passed over for jobs. That hurts no one and in no way give white people any privilege having an easier time getting a job.

To change any of that would suggest that privilege exists and that is pure heresy.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:09 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I think it's purely an American invention to quell wrongfully placed guilt on the part of white people who have likely done nothing to harm their black neighbours, but harbour odd feelings about ignorance for something that happened long before they were born. What the hell are these privileges and how do they relate to a bloke from England?

What does guilt have to do with it? I have it easier than a person in a wheel chair. There is no guilt to acknowledge that.



Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Ah, so does that also count for tall, hetero male, non-disabled black guys? I'm sure you can ask the many successful black athletes out there that question.
That is literally what the article is pointing out and discussing, specifically in regards to the male/straight part.



Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
No idea what you're on about, tbh, mate. I'm from Liverpool, my great grandparents were Irish, but my parents are from Liverpool. I see a struggle for jobs from all walks of life, not merely for people of colour. I work in an industry packed full with men and women from all over the world. I don't see the statement about people from other countries finding it hard to work reflected in what I see in reality, which is people from all walks of life getting jobs, with just as many white people on the Dole as there is black people on it. The people who talk as though whites find it easier to get jobs have obviously never been in to a bloody Job Center in their life.

What does any of that have to do with it? Having a privilege does not mean you win at life because of it. It means you have a privilege. You can ignore studies done on this topic if you want, or act as if the UK is all so different in regards to this, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have a white sounding name, and equal qualifications, multiple researches have found you will receive an invitation to interview with less applications sent, at a non-ignorable percentage. This does not mean that black people can't get jobs, or that white people get them instantly. It means simply what it says, your race itself is a privilege. It made it a little easier. That doesn't even go into the interview itself, or job prospects, earnings gaps etc beyond that.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Again, maybe this is the case in the USA, because I see no greater number of blacks than whites in the same situation. When I go into town, it's not even one minute before I see a white bloke laying on the floor with nothing but the clothes on his back, and people of all colours walk past him without so much as a glance. Maybe I should take the time to stop and ask him if he's checked his privilege...

Again, you don't seem to understand what privilege is, or just can't acknowledge it for some reason.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
These justice warriors do not live in the real world. In the real world, poverty has no colour. In my city, some of the poorest areas are predominantly white areas, an area like Gartson, home of the historic docks, has been an under-funded hellhole of unemployment and crime for a good many years. I see no privilege there.

No one here is saying what you are describing, at all. Saying you have it easier than X does not mean you have it easy.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:12 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly you would never have been negatively impacted by sexism if it had been applied so there for you would not be advantaged relative to a woman in otherwise identical situations. Sexism has no real effects and can safely be ignored. That is the clear message you are sending.
Even though I said already that it DOES have effects? Do you really think no one will notice that you are making stuff up and treating it as real in your arguments? Haven't enough people told you that you constantly do this by now? Doesn't it give you pause when you're about to hit "submit reply"?

Quote:
Totally nothing sexist about only respecting men there. Not a privilege for the man, as the man he deserves to be taken seriously more so than his female coworker.
Ok I really thought I might get a real adult conversation with you for once but it seems you're just incapable of that. Give me a shout when you're ready to do something else than erecting strawmen.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:13 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Firstly, how do you honestly equate a struggle? How on earth do you compare the relative struggles of two different people?
When one of you gets called back for a job and the other does not solely because of race? There are lots of hard data that shows that white felons get higher rates of call backs to jobs than black people with no criminal record. Getting the job interview is the first step to getting a job. So the black man will need to try to get many more jobs on average than the white man to get a job.


Quote:
Secondly, to even claim that our ancestors had an "easier struggle" kind of implies that you either come from an actually privileged background, or you're totally clueless as to the history of your city/town and its people.
I am not saying ancestors, I am saying individuals now. The ancestors would be more about social privilege or lack there of which while related to racial privilege is also a thing. A Black man from a middle class family has class privilege relative to an impoverished white man but the white man still has racial privilege compared to the black man.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:14 AM   #223
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But when black women share that we pose the same existential and literal danger to them that whiteness does to us; and when black women ask us to give them the benefit of the doubt about street harassment and sexual assault and other forms of harassment and violence we might not personally witness; and when black women tell us that allowing our cousins and brothers and co-workers and ****** to use misogynistic language propagates that culture of danger; and when black women admit how scary it can be to get followed and approached by a man while waiting for a bus or walking home from work; and when black women articulate how hurtful it is for our reactions to domestic abuse and their rapes and murders to be “what women need to do differently to prevent this from happening to them” instead of “what we (men) need to do differently to prevent us from doing this to them,” their words are met with resistance and outright pushback. After demanding from white people that we’re listened to and believed and that our livelihoods are considered, our ears shut off and hearts shut down when black women are pleading with us.
Say, female white people have exactly the same fears and concerns.

I know, I know, the article isn't addressed to white women, so maybe they should check their privilege.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:15 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Even though I said already that it DOES have effects? Do you really think no one will notice that you are making stuff up and treating it as real in your arguments? Haven't enough people told you that you constantly do this by now? Doesn't it give you pause when you're about to hit "submit reply"?
How can it have an effect and then not matter? It is not enough of an effect for you to consider it detrimental to the person. What kind of effects can it have?

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Ok I really thought I might get a real adult conversation with you for once but it seems you're just incapable of that. Give me a shout when you're ready to do something else than erecting strawmen.
You are strawmaning the whole definition of privilege.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:15 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
What does guilt have to do with it? I have it easier than a person in a wheel chair. There is no guilt to acknowledge that.
Privileges aren't normally just advantages you have. They're advantages given.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:16 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How can it have an effect and then not matter?
Why are you asking me? I never said sexism doesn't matter. That's your argument, not mine. See what I mean? Not a single post without a strawman.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:17 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I see you've also sidestepped my other points. Troublesome?
Fair enough. Here you go then.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, no. They made it about race by making that stupid statement.

If I have a cooking show, and I make a comment about Trump and his policies, have I not myself made my show political?
You've introduced politics into your cooking show. But it doesn't turn your cooking show into a politics show.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Tell me, what does "privilege" has to do with my posts? Nothing, that's what. But that's the issue with social justice folks, if you disagree with their claims, that ipso facto means you're either a bigot or a victim of your own privilege. You couldn't possibly, you know, just disagree or --gasp-- be right.
You're neither a bigot nor a victim of privilege. But you are the recipient of privilege. It's not a comment on your individual value or accomplishments - it's a comment on the way the system works. It's a comment on society, and the fact that society doesn't treat all people equally. In many cases, society plays favorites. The person benefiting from that favoritism hasn't necessarily sought preferential treatment, and they're often unaware that they've been treated differently. There's no malice ascribed. It's nothing more than standard run-of-the-mill human behavior being unaware of other people's experiences.

We each view the world with ourselves at the center. That's not a slight or an insult, it's simply how we as creatures interact. We view 'normal' relative to ourselves, and we almost always assume that our experiences and our behavior is normal. It's only when we're exposed to a different perspective that we find ourselves out-of-norm. In the US, the majority of the exposed perspective will come from the media, from television, movies, radio, etc. And the perspective shown is very frequently the perspective of white, heterosexual, males.

There's no ill will in there. It's not some purposeful act to keep others in their place. It's simply the assumption of normality from the perspective of the dominant group. It's not even necessarily wrong, and it's definitely not uncommon. But it does mean that empathy and understanding are given boundaries.

Because a white person in the US experiences their life from the perspective of a white person, in a system that intrinsically favors white people, and that persistently reflects a white experience as being normal and average... white people are very often unaware that the experience of non-white people is not the same. When my father enters a store, people take note and there's often an undercurrent of suspicion because he is black. Never mind that he's well dressed, extremely successful, and well educated. Never mind that he drives an extremely nice car and owns a house I *hope* to afford some day. On the other hand, my spouse can enter a store in scruffy jeans with holes, driving a beat up vehicle, and having marginal education... yet he is treated with considerable more respect. Yes, this varies considerably by location and by individual. But on the whole, black people are treated with suspicion where white people are presumed to be benign until they demonstrate otherwise. A black person nearly always has to take action that convinces people that they are not a threat; a white person has to take action that convinces people they are a threat.

There's no blame involved in this. But it is unjust. And it needs to be acknowledged before it can be changed. This isn't an issue of law or regulation. It's an issue of social expectation.

The same thing is true when it comes to gender. Men are not treated the same as women. And it goes well beyond any differences in physical capability - it's not a matter of biology. It's a matter of the expectation of behavior that society holds. Men are expected to be decisive, in control, powerful, and logical. Women are expected to be uncertain, reticent, collaborative, and emotional. Women are portrayed as needing to be protected, as needing someone to take care of them. If a man is attacked, it is almost universally viewed as the attacker being at fault - the attacker is the one who broke the law and the social code. If a woman is attacked, there is very often a response of why the woman was partly to blame for her attack.

Your posts have a lot to do with your privilege. Your posts generally express your view of normal, what you accept as the standard. And your posts often demonstrate your lack of understanding of another person's perspective. There've been numerous times where you've dismissed any consideration of white privilege as offensive, You've dismissed the concept of male privilege as being nonexistent as well as offensive. You've argued for a 'naturalistic' justification for different treatment on the basis of gender in the workplace. And in this particular case, it's your offense that demonstrates your perspective.

All of us post from our own perspectives, based on our own beliefs and our own expectations of the average. We each see ourselves as predominantly normal. When we are the recipient of social benefits as a result of the underlying behavioral expectations of our societies, that is very frequently expressed in our posts. None of us are immune to this - it's boiler-plate human being. It takes effort to acknowledge that our own views are biased and to accept that we haven't earned all of the benefits we've received. That doesn't mean that none of them are earned... only that not all of them are.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What does my skin colour have to do with any of this?
I surmise that it has a fair bit to do with your position on this topic.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:19 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Sure, here you go: the concept of male privilege itself is stupid. It's not only counter-productive as a point of conversation but it's also bunk as a general claim. It varies from one place to another but as a general rule women in the West are not oppressed or prevented from doing whatever they want. There.
Do you actually believe this to be true? Do you believe that women are truly treated equally to men in western society?
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:21 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I suggest you brush up on your English. Sexism necessarily has impacts, but it does not make it oppression.

Here, let's make it simple: how about you give me your definition of "oppression"?
Privilege <> Oppression

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Does that mean that you also decry female privilege?
Yes, women have certain privileges as well. And those also need to be addressed. For example, women have a distinct privilege when it comes to child custody in divorce, as well as in the perception of them if they take parental leave for a newborn. Women have considerable privilege when it comes to expressing their emotions or being frightened. Women are given considerably more respect than men if they choose care-giving careers, where men are often derided as being effeminate.

Privilege isn't limited to just one specific group. But there is very often an aggregate unevenness in the distribution of privilege when you look at it in relative terms. In general, white people on the whole have easier lives than black people. In general, men have easier lives than women. In general, hetero-normative people have easier lives than non-hetero-normative (is there a single term rather than listing out the entirety here?).
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:22 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you actually believe this to be true? Do you believe that women are truly treated equally to men in western society?
the garbage article linked in the op appears to presume that white women are basically indistinguishable from white men.

white people, amirite?
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:24 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
What does guilt have to do with it? I have it easier than a person in a wheel chair. There is no guilt to acknowledge that.
Because this invented list of privileges relies upon the idea of misplaced guilt in order to make the person bestowed with such non-existent privileges feel lucky to have them.



Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
That is literally what the article is pointing out and discussing, specifically in regards to the male/straight part.
And it oddly discounts the fact that this applies for people from all walks of life depending on what it is they're even trying to accomplish.




Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
What does any of that have to do with it? Having a privilege does not mean you win at life because of it. It means you have a privilege. You can ignore studies done on this topic if you want, or act as if the UK is all so different in regards to this, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If you have a white sounding name, and equal qualifications, multiple researches have found you will receive an invitation to interview with less applications sent, at a non-ignorable percentage. This does not mean that black people can't get jobs, or that white people get them instantly. It means simply what it says, your race itself is a privilege. It made it a little easier. That doesn't even go into the interview itself, or job prospects, earnings gaps etc beyond that.
You keep droning on about these privileges and yet I'm still waiting to see what they even consist of. It's okay, though, because they did studies!
The fact that I work in an industry where "white-sounding names" are not the norm for employees, that pretty much makes your odd assertion about folks with white-sounding names receiving more opportunities seem like nonsensical garbage. Considering unemployment in the North has been rife over the past decade, that essentially makes this idea that white-sounding/looking blokes finding work to be sheer nonsense, peddled for the sake of it.

Seriously, take a trip over to any UK Job Center and you count every white man in there and ask yourself why these white-sounding buggers can't find work.

Generally, people who fit the criteria for a specific job will find it easier to get that job. Being that I've aided in conducting interviews with previous employers in the recruitment of new staff, I can tell you that I never once saw anyone getting shortlisted because of their name, but because of their ability to do the job and their experience in the field.




Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Again, you don't seem to understand what privilege is, or just can't acknowledge it for some reason.
It's kind of hard to understand a non-existent list of privileges, tbh. You seem to be failing at even adequately providing me with one of these supposed privileges, and I think that's very telling.





Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
No one here is saying what you are describing, at all. Saying you have it easier than X does not mean you have it easy.
No one here seems to have a clue what they're saying with regards to privilege, mainly because it's an invented bit of gibberish created to make white people feel better about their misplaced guilt.

Let me know when you figure out even one valid example of this privilege. I'll be over here, bathing in glory and wealth.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:24 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What part of the post confuses you? Did you not tell Sadhatter to put his feelings of offense aside? Did you not agree that the article relies on such feelings to make a point? Do you not see the contradiction, here?

It seems quite simple to me.
Again I have no idea what you are going on about. Let's assume you've made some incredible, incisive comment and leave it at that.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:25 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why are you asking me? I never said sexism doesn't matter. That's your argument, not mine. See what I mean? Not a single post without a strawman.
You have specifically stated that privilege does not exist, that means that sexism or its lack must never have impacted you or any people you could possibly interact with. Otherwise not being subjected to that would be an advantage.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:27 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You've introduced politics into your cooking show. But it doesn't turn your cooking show into a politics show.
That's true, but it wasn't my argument.

Quote:
You're neither a bigot nor a victim of privilege. But you are the recipient of privilege.
You have no idea who I am. You don't know my life, you don't know if I'm part of a minority or if I've had to struggle or where my advantages or disadvantages come from. And that's true of everyone else you discuss this topic with.

Quote:
It's not a comment on your individual value or accomplishments - it's a comment on the way the system works.
You assume that it works that way. You apply a narrow perspective on the complex workings of society and apply it to everyone, everywhere. Take the issue of race (please!): while it's clear that racism has been a central issue in US history, people living in Canada and Europe and Oceania have not had this history, so it's a bit silly to assume as SJWs do that the specific issues of the US regarding race apply to, say, Spain or the UK.

That said, it doesn't mean they're right about racial issues in the US either. As with everything human, it's a complex question.

Quote:
The same thing is true when it comes to gender. Men are not treated the same as women. And it goes well beyond any differences in physical capability - it's not a matter of biology.
Careful. It's not entirely a matter of biology. Biology is pretty much a factor in everything. Much more so than we like to admit.

Quote:
It's a matter of the expectation of behavior that society holds. Men are expected to be decisive, in control, powerful, and logical. Women are expected to be uncertain, reticent, collaborative, and emotional. Women are portrayed as needing to be protected, as needing someone to take care of them.
Do you know why this is so? This is the most important point of this post.

Quote:
If a man is attacked, it is almost universally viewed as the attacker being at fault - the attacker is the one who broke the law and the social code. If a woman is attacked, there is very often a response of why the woman was partly to blame for her attack.
That's not true. Some asshats will do that, but don't extend the words and actions of the few to the intent of the many.

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There've been numerous times where you've dismissed any consideration of white privilege as offensive
Not offensive, wrong.

Quote:
You've argued for a 'naturalistic' justification for different treatment on the basis of gender in the workplace.
I've done no such thing. An explanation is not a justification.

Quote:
I surmise that it has a fair bit to do with your position on this topic.
Of course you do. I can't possibly have reached a different conclusion from yours through actual thinking, right?
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:30 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you actually believe this to be true? Do you believe that women are truly treated equally to men in western society?
Again, I have not said that. I said that the concept of privilege is, in the modern western world, a fiction. I didn't say that sexism doesn't exist. I didn't say that everything is equal. I didn't say that the sky is red.

Quote:
Privilege isn't limited to just one specific group.
Assuming we're still talking about advantages, you can't get rid of them. Human interaction is complex and informed by forces you can't control. What you can do is try to see if some of them are, for lack of a better term, problematic, and try to address them. Not all of them are 'bad' per se.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:30 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Privileges aren't normally just advantages you have. They're advantages given.
Only in the sense that it is the structure of society, and the expectations inherent in it, that are giving those advantages. For all intents and purposes, privileges are just advantages that you have... they're advantages that you have that create a situation in which your movement through society is easier because of those advantages than it is for a person without them.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:31 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When one of you gets called back for a job and the other does not solely because of race? There are lots of hard data that shows that white felons get higher rates of call backs to jobs than black people with no criminal record. Getting the job interview is the first step to getting a job. So the black man will need to try to get many more jobs on average than the white man to get a job.
Thing is, you've just invented this scenario, but does it actually happen? I've never seen one man being rejected based on race. It likely has happened, but is it the norm? I doubt that it is. There will always be someone who is picked over someone else, that's life. It's about finding the person best suited to the job and their experience in previous work. I know white and black people who have been in prison, and neither of those groups found it easy to get work. The idea that white felons are hoisted above their black counterparts is just silly.




Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am not saying ancestors, I am saying individuals now. The ancestors would be more about social privilege or lack there of which while related to racial privilege is also a thing. A Black man from a middle class family has class privilege relative to an impoverished white man but the white man still has racial privilege compared to the black man.

There are plenty of white men and women right now who don't have a pot to piss in. This idea of "privilege" does not seem to apply to them. Why is it this hard for anyone to actually properly define these so-called privileges? That, to me, implies what I already know, that this whole privilege talk is nothing but tripe.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:31 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You have specifically stated that privilege does not exist, that means that sexism or its lack must never have impacted you or any people you could possibly interact with.
I've already explained the difference to you. Is that another bit you omitted to read?

Quote:
Otherwise not being subjected to that would be an advantage.
Ah, so now you use the correct word. How amusing.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again I have no idea what you are going on about. Let's assume you've made some incredible, incisive comment and leave it at that.
How about you answer the questions in that post in order and see where we can go from there? Stop dodging.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:33 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Only in the sense that it is the structure of society, and the expectations inherent in it, that are giving those advantages. For all intents and purposes, privileges are just advantages that you have...
No, that's what I said. They're not just advantages.

Example: I didn't just happen by my driver's license. It was given to me as a privilege by the state.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:35 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you actually believe this to be true? Do you believe that women are truly treated equally to men in western society?
This is exactly why the privilege theory ideas are stupid. Society isn't a monolith. Very few valid claims about how certain people are "treated in society" can be reasonably made. Society is a collection of hundred of millions of diverse individuals each with their own beliefs and motivations. Saying they all treat one class or group of people lesser than others is nonsense without extraordinary evidence, which you don't have.
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