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Old 25th September 2017, 05:55 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
As adults? No.

As children, however, it's actually pretty important. Children need to be able to see themselves in their heroes, they need to be reflected in the ideal, in the normal, in the acceptable. Regardless of whether you approve of it or not, physical characteristics are one of the most immediately recognizable elements for resonance in children.

If the only people who you are shown as successful, good, noble, and heroic are people that are NOT like you, it leaves an impression that you are not able to be a successful, good, noble, and heroic person. Children need to see themselves reflected in the world around them, in their role models, to help create their sense of self. It informs their view of themselves, and how they fit into the world. It informs their basis for what they believe they are capable of.
lol, i thought i was in the wrong thread because i could not fathom what this has to do with the misogynistic red hot dumpster fire that is the article linked in the op.
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Old 25th September 2017, 05:57 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That's correlation, not proof of privilege. Could the stats be caused by something other than the special treatment that 'privilege' implies?
Which point specifically do you dispute as simple correlation and why? I ask because I chose these specific ones due to the large basis of all things being equal about them beyond skin color, except the wage gap which I blatantly pointed out other issues attributing but not explaining the gap.

What exactly would you need to be provided with, statistically, that would make you believe? With these kinds of things, it seems no amount of documentation can change people's mind after they are made up.
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Old 25th September 2017, 06:37 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Which point specifically do you dispute as simple correlation and why? I ask because I chose these specific ones due to the large basis of all things being equal about them beyond skin color, except the wage gap which I blatantly pointed out other issues attributing but not explaining the gap.
For starters, from your first link (sentencing):

Quote:
Pre-charge characteristics, including arrest offense and criminal history, can explain about 80% of these disparities
Right out of the gate, the abstract acknowledges a huge inequality. Further, how comparable were the crimes in other details? As exact as you suggest? Could this be correlated socio-economically with similar findings? I think a lot of white privilege claims are just as easily attributed to class privilege.

In the mortgage interest link, the authors acknowledge that credit score and history as well as other factors play into the interest rates, but that they 'remain skeptical' that race is not a factor. They do not seem to back this up with anything.

Quote:
What exactly would you need to be provided with, statistically, that would make you believe? With these kinds of things, it seems no amount of documentation can change people's mind after they are made up.
Evidence that the preferential treatment was due to skin color and not, as mentioned, other factors such as class. Correlation is not enough, and IMO feeds into prejudiced agendas.
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Old 25th September 2017, 07:53 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Right out of the gate, the abstract acknowledges a huge inequality. Further, how comparable were the crimes in other details? As exact as you suggest? Could this be correlated socio-economically with similar findings? I think a lot of white privilege claims are just as easily attributed to class privilege.

I don't expect you to read through the full pdf, but the report is there beyond just the abstract.

Quote:
Using both regression methods and a semi-parametric reweighting approach, we find that black defendants face significantly more severe charges than whites even after controlling for criminal behavior (arrest offense, multiple-defendant case structure, and criminal history), observed defendant characteristics (e.g., age, education), defense counsel type, district, county economic characteristics, and crime rates.


Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
In the mortgage interest link, the authors acknowledge that credit score and history as well as other factors play into the interest rates, but that they 'remain skeptical' that race is not a factor. They do not seem to back this up with anything.

So you disagree that black Americans earning double the median income in their neighborhoods, largely in excess of 100k are 3 times as likely than whites matching those demographics to have other factors pushing them towards higher interest/predatory loans than race? Well Fargo attempted to dismiss claims in the same manner, and yet they settled for 432$ million in loan promises to Memphis and Shelby due to a lawsuit brought against them there.

Personally, I normally am not overly skeptical that a financial institution would use predatory loans to increase profit margins if they can get away with it. CountryWide Financial also had to settle due to similar charges brought about by the Justice Department to the tune of 325$ million.


Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Evidence that the preferential treatment was due to skin color and not, as mentioned, other factors such as class. Correlation is not enough, and IMO feeds into prejudiced agendas.

I understand your skepticism, as I approached in the same fashion. And when looking for studies that attempt to rule out all other factors involved, the discrepancies remain. My issue is that individuals seem to set the bar and keep raising it no matter the evidence presented.
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Old 25th September 2017, 09:04 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I don't expect you to read through the full pdf, but the report is there beyond just the abstract.
Your link let me read the PDF once, now wants me to set up an account (not interested). The Michigan Law paper went on to conclude that only 5% were unexplained, and that even they may have been explainable due to other listed factors. Between 0% and 5% unexplained. I don't find that particularly damning.

Quote:
So you disagree that black Americans earning double the median income in their neighborhoods, largely in excess of 100k are 3 times as likely than whites matching those demographics to have other factors pushing them towards higher interest/predatory loans than race? Well Fargo attempted to dismiss claims in the same manner, and yet they settled for 432$ million in loan promises to Memphis and Shelby due to a lawsuit brought against them there.

Personally, I normally am not overly skeptical that a financial institution would use predatory loans to increase profit margins if they can get away with it. CountryWide Financial also had to settle due to similar charges brought about by the Justice Department to the tune of 325$ million.

I understand your skepticism, as I approached in the same fashion. And when looking for studies that attempt to rule out all other factors involved, the discrepancies remain. My issue is that individuals seem to set the bar and keep raising it no matter the evidence presented.
I think the bar for evidence of white privilege should be higher than 0%-5% of unexplained incidence in sentencing. I would further expect that some solid link is shown between 'unexplained' and attributed to white privilege. I really don't think that is an unreasonably high bar.
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Old 25th September 2017, 10:25 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Your link let me read the PDF once, now wants me to set up an account (not interested). The Michigan Law paper went on to conclude that only 5% were unexplained, and that even they may have been explainable due to other listed factors. Between 0% and 5% unexplained. I don't find that particularly damning.

That is not their conclusion. The 5% you refer to is in regards to the mean-gap post-justice process for judicial decisions as opposed to prosecutorial decisions, if I read their conclusion correctly.

Quote:
This study provides robust evidence that black male federal defendants receive longer sentences than whites arrested for the same offenses and with the same prior records. On average black males receive sentences that are approximately 10% longer than comparable white males with those at the top of the sentencing distribution facing even larger disparities. Much of that disparity appears to be driven by decisions at the initial charging stage, especially by prosecutors’ filing of “mandatory minimum” charges, which, ceteris paribus, they do twice as often against black defendants. Our estimates of disparities in prosecutorial decisions are likely conservative, because they do not encompass gaps introduced by prearrest prosecutorial involvement in the case, nor do they account for possible disparities in law enforcement.
This is at the Federal level, with other studies done at the state level being far more harsh, especially in regards to drug charge sentencing. This study I referenced did not include drug charges if I remember correctly.


Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think the bar for evidence of white privilege should be higher than 0%-5% of unexplained incidence in sentencing. I would further expect that some solid link is shown between 'unexplained' and attributed to white privilege. I really don't think that is an unreasonably high bar.

I'm sorry, but 0% is not referenced anywhere. And to say that 5%-10% after discounting all other attributes is acceptable in your eyes, especially since this is just in regards to federal sentencing, is the problem. Even to just take into account incarceration numbers national beyond the federal level and extrapolate, with 2.3 million black Americans incarcerated, that would mean this affects 115-230k citizens negatively due to race. To go with the low end, if 1 in 20 people of a certain race are negatively affected in these circumstances, is that really so low as to dismiss? And isn't the dismissal itself at that level a clear indication of privilege, since the outcome doesn't affect you enough to be deemed important?

As for a solid link, how exactly would we go about distinguishing this concretely enough for you? When multiple data points across multiple sectors show an issue, at what point do you accept said issue is accurate? Especially when the research already attempts to lessen the impact of any variable besides race? I reference the justice system, schools, loans, wage gap and housing discrimination all coming to a conclusion that race has a negative affect in these specific fields.
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Old 25th September 2017, 11:27 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
None of those are privileges and none have to do with race.
Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of white people do. Funny how that works.
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Old 26th September 2017, 02:16 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of white people do. Funny how that works.
"You think that way because you're white" sounds very racist.
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Old 26th September 2017, 03:15 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
"You think that way because you're white" sounds very racist.
Well, get your ears checked because it isn't.
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Old 26th September 2017, 03:57 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
"You think that way because you're white" sounds very racist.
It isn't. And that is a strawman of what he said.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:20 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, get your ears checked because it isn't.
Let me guess, it's only racist when a white person says it about black people?

"You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of black people do. Funny how that works."

I'm sure that wouldn't be called racist at all, here.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:24 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Let me guess, it's only racist when a white person says it about black people?

"You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of black people do. Funny how that works."

I'm sure that wouldn't be called racist at all, here.
I was recently informed of how white I am recently when I picked up some dryer sheets. I was unaware until that point that static-free clothing was an ethnic trait.

I am now one step closer to being woke, I think.

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Old 26th September 2017, 04:27 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Let me guess, it's only racist when a white person says it about black people?

"You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of black people do. Funny how that works."

I'm sure that wouldn't be called racist at all, here.
Do you realize that all he accused you of doing was exactly the same thing the article in the OP is accusing straight black men of doing? Not recognizing their privilege.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:33 AM   #334
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"You think that way because the culture you live in reinforces it" is a statement that could be explored meaningfully.

Asserting a person's ethnicity as the reason for their thoughts or behaviors directly is terribly regressive.

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Old 26th September 2017, 04:37 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"You think that way because the culture you live in reinforces it" is a statement that could be explored meaningfully.

Asserting a person's ethnicity as the reason for their thoughts or behaviors directly is terribly regressive.
And again you are strawmaning the statement. It was "Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of white people do. Funny how that works."

It doesn't say that people think that way because they are white, just that many white people refuse to accept that they were advantaged in anyway by being white. This would mean that racism exists and impacts peoples lives and clearly as it hasn't impacted mine negatively it must not.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:40 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And again you are strawmaning the statement. It was "Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of white people do. Funny how that works."

It doesn't say that people think that way because they are white, just that many white people refuse to accept that they were advantaged in anyway by being white. This would mean that racism exists and impacts peoples lives and clearly as it hasn't impacted mine negatively it must not.
I read the initial statement. Repeating it to me doesn't change what I said.

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Old 26th September 2017, 04:54 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I read the initial statement. Repeating it to me doesn't change what I said.

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You are standing by your strawman then.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:56 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are standing by your strawman then.
You are repeating the same assertion.

Do you intend to move the discussion along at some point?

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Old 26th September 2017, 05:00 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Do you realize that all he accused you of doing was exactly the same thing the article in the OP is accusing straight black men of doing? Not recognizing their privilege.
He ascribed the cause of my thoughts to my skin colour. I can think of few statements that are more racist.

"Of course you think this silly thing. You're black!"
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:19 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
He ascribed the cause of my thoughts to my skin colour. I can think of few statements that are more racist.

"Of course you think this silly thing. You're black!"
No he didn't. He simply stated that many white people refuse to accept white privilege. Like how the article this is about is how straight black men act in a similar fashion.

Refusing to acknowledge privilege is pretty common for those who have it.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:21 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You are repeating the same assertion.

Do you intend to move the discussion along at some point?

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How is that supposed to happen when there is a fundamental disagreement about what "Not to you. You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of white people do. Funny how that works." means.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:22 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No he didn't. He simply stated that many white people refuse to accept white privilege. Like how the article this is about is how straight black men act in a similar fashion.

Refusing to acknowledge privilege is pretty common for those who have it.
The fact that it takes at least an additional 2 full sentences to make the context clear says a lot.

Progressives have had so little pushback for so long, we've let lazy thinking into our discourse.

But the point stands, the exact same phrasing going the other way would be met with howls of outrage and those 2 clarifying sentences would hardly be considered adequate clarification.

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Old 26th September 2017, 05:40 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The fact that it takes at least an additional 2 full sentences to make the context clear says a lot.

Progressives have had so little pushback for so long, we've let lazy thinking into our discourse.

But the point stands, the exact same phrasing going the other way would be met with howls of outrage and those 2 clarifying sentences would hardly be considered adequate clarification.
Because we have context. Black lives Matter makes sense in the view that the police are killing black people disproportionately and the media is always looking to justify their deaths. Blue lives matter has an entirely different context of sending the message that the police are simply worth more than anyone else.

So taking a statement totally out of the context that it is and cherry picking it, yes you can add ambiguity to the statement. Congratulations you are hitting republicans claiming that they have do dependence on infrastructure or education in the success of their businesses levels of being oblique.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:00 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Let me guess, it's only racist when a white person says it about black people?

"You think of them as natural happenstances, right? Not surprisingly, a lot of black people do. Funny how that works."

I'm sure that wouldn't be called racist at all, here.
No, you'd be called an idiot because that doesn't apply to black people. Or do you not care about content, just contention?

"Black people complain a lot about police brutality."

Is that a racist statement? The fact that it mentions race does not make it a racist statement.

"White people quite often cannot see the ridiculousness of them not being aware of their privilege." Same thing. It mentions a skin color, but it's not racist."
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:03 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because we have context. Black lives Matter makes sense in the view that the police are killing black people disproportionately and the media is always looking to justify their deaths. Blue lives matter has an entirely different context of sending the message that the police are simply worth more than anyone else.

So taking a statement totally out of the context that it is and cherry picking it, yes you can add ambiguity to the statement. Congratulations you are hitting republicans claiming that they have do dependence on infrastructure or education in the success of their businesses levels of being oblique.
Oh look, a whole pack of red herring.

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Old 26th September 2017, 06:05 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
No, you'd be called an idiot because that doesn't apply to black people. Or do you not care about content, just contention?

"Black people complain a lot about police brutality."

Is that a racist statement? The fact that it mentions race does not make it a racist statement.

"White people quite often cannot see the ridiculousness of them not being aware of their privilege." Same thing. It mentions a skin color, but it's not racist."
If we were discussing police brutality and I dropped that statement, it probably wouldn't land that way, would it?

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Old 26th September 2017, 06:13 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If we were discussing police brutality and I dropped that statement, it probably wouldn't land that way, would it?

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I used it as an example, not as another debate tactic for you sea lions to get hung up on. It is possible to make generic statements about blacks or white or Latinos or Jews or Asians,.... that are not racist.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:19 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I used it as an example, not as another debate tactic for you sea lions to get hung up on. It is possible to make generic statements about blacks or white or Latinos or Jews or Asians,.... that are not racist.
Not in my experience.

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Old 26th September 2017, 06:21 AM   #349
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Well, damn.

I look away to Puerto Rico, or some dude taking a knee in the NFL and toupee fiasco throwing a hissy fit in response, and y'all start going in on one another? We're really back to putting thoughts to Argumemnon, rather than the point of the article, which, remember, was to point out the hypocrisy of straight black guys who get mad when white people don't listen to them and yet who themselves refuse to listen to black women? Sorry, I need to read up on the thread, but y'all are going way off...

ETA: The original phrase was actually "Black men are the white women of the black community." THis drove a lot of guys into absolute hysterics. And I do use that word knowing where it came from.

Last edited by Mumbles; 26th September 2017 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:26 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No he didn't. He simply stated that many white people refuse to accept white privilege.
No, except yes.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
No, you'd be called an idiot because that doesn't apply to black people.
What doesn't apply to black people?

What else would I be called? Let it all out!

Quote:
"Black people complain a lot about police brutality."
"Of course you think that about the police. Typical black opinion."

Word it the way you want. You intimated that the colour of my skin determines my opinion on the matter.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:27 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I used it as an example, not as another debate tactic for you sea lions to get hung up on.
Sea lions? I don't get the reference.

Quote:
It is possible to make generic statements about blacks or white or Latinos or Jews or Asians,.... that are not racist.
You can't even say you don't like a particular black person without being suspected of racism by someone.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:30 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, except yes.
???

You can talk about issues and problems within a group without it being biased against the group. Or are we back to gay people hating christians now?
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:41 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
???

You can talk about issues and problems within a group without it being biased against the group. Or are we back to gay people hating christians now?
That's an uncharacteristically nuanced view for you.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:44 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
???

You can talk about issues and problems within a group without it being biased against the group. Or are we back to gay people hating christians now?
By making sweeping generalizations and then portraying anyone who objects to them as stupid?

Doesn't sound like a very productive way to approach a difficult subject like that.

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Old 26th September 2017, 06:45 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No he didn't. He simply stated that many white people refuse to accept white privilege. Like how the article this is about is how straight black men act in a similar fashion.

Refusing to acknowledge privilege is pretty common for those who have it.
Song as you are trying to make a layered version of privilege, name me some one who doesn't have privilege.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:47 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Song as you are trying to make a layered version of privilege, name me some one who doesn't have privilege.
Just because everyone has some form of privilege doesn't mean it does not exist.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:48 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
By making sweeping generalizations and then portraying anyone who objects to them as stupid?

Doesn't sound like a very productive way to approach a difficult subject like that.
No, but why stop now?
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:48 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
By making sweeping generalizations and then portraying anyone who objects to them as stupid?
Whatever clearly racism and sexism never hurt anyone anymore, you are clear about that. Anyone who claims racism and sexism exists except maybe against straight white men is clearly a lying scumbag. Studies and evidence will never dissuade you so what is even the point in debating this?
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:51 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Whatever clearly racism and sexism never hurt anyone anymore, you are clear about that.
Phew! For a moment there I thought you'd go a whole minute without making a strawman. Cataclysm averted.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:51 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
???

You can talk about issues and problems within a group without it being biased against the group. Or are we back to gay people hating christians now?
You can, if you talk of said issues, describe in detail those who are likely exhibiting them, and accurately explain yourself when someone believes the individual in question does not meet the criteria.

But that is not how it plays out. You say "some white people" when pressed, and accuse someone of being racist or ignorant if they attempt to debate you on if they do or do not let privilege color their views.

You say that people are ignoring things because they don't sink up with their view on life. Ever think you might be doing the same thing?
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