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Tags donald trump , NFL incidents , protest incidents , sports controversies , sports incidents , Trump controversies

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Old 26th September 2017, 08:26 AM   #281
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, FFS. I played loose with verb tense. So what?



Which traces back to Trump's dad, without whom Trump never would have been born.

But there's no point in tracing the cause back farther than the immediate one. And the immediate one is that a lot of viewers aren't interested in watching player protests, regardless of the cause. Players were not forced to protest because of Trump. They made a choice. And so did viewers



Responding to tweets is part of their job? No, it isn't.



And maybe some of them are. But that doesn't help the NFL. They can't make money off of blame.



And I'm sure the NFL can console themselves with that as their income shrinks. Yet no matter who you want to blame, the NFL could have avoided it. They could have chosen a different path.

They chose poorly.
But what would have been their correct choice as you see it?

I presume the correct choice would not include firing athletes for kneeling rather than standing, right? Because that would represent the NFL choosing to preserve their income stream over preserving the rights of American citizens to protest peacefully. Not only tacky but fundamentally unAmerican as I see it. But then, isn't that exactly what Trump is seeking- to financially punish the the NFL into doing his bidding? Both creepy and odious.

Also wouldn't firing the players violate their legal contracts and the NFL's agreements with their union? Thank god for unions!
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:29 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who could have guessed?

Oh, wait. I did.
Is "up 3%" consistent with your prediction?
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:33 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Deflated
Thank you.

Just as the puns relating to Brady's taint began to fade, now we have Weiner's long sentence. I look forward to seeing how you work that into your repertoire.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:35 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Have the ratings come out yet for the weekend? Were they up, down, or flat?
Yes they have and they're mixed. As you can see below (click on image to enlarge) overall the games seem to have done okay. The three games that lost share (compared to 2016) were games involving the Packers, Redskins and Giants. But ratings for all three were already down. A shocker for me was the Eagles-Redskins game in Week 1 that did very poorly. Dallas has done well and so have the 49ers.

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Old 26th September 2017, 08:38 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Yes they have and they're mixed.
Trump's boycott is crushing them, then? Serves them right.

In all seriousness, this Thursday night **** is driving me crazy. I hope their viewership does decline for that reason alone.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:24 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Thank you.

Just as the puns relating to Brady's taint began to fade, now we have Weiner's long sentence. I look forward to seeing how you work that into your repertoire.
Time well spent
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:30 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Time well spent
Indeed.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:10 AM   #288
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do white men not get brain damage in the NFL? Do they get better, inertial-dampening helmets?
Yeah, but people don't enjoy it as much, because of racism, or something.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:18 AM   #289
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Indeed lost in the kneeling controversy is Trump's expressed frustration with the NFL's concerns (such that there are) about head injuries.

"Today if you hit too hard — 15 yards!” Trump said at a rally in Alabama. “They’re ruining the game.”

Apparently he is against the players kneeling but it is okay, even preferable, if they stagger around a bit after repeated concussions and eventually progress to dementia. As long as the don't fall to their knees I guess.

Really- it is a small price for the players to pay for the privilege of entertaining him. And the essential core of the entertainment for Trump is watching the violent hits; strategy, skill, scoring just aren't enough to hold his interest.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:20 AM   #290
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not Trump yapping that made viewership drop. It was the NFL doubling down on the protests that did. He goaded them into a mistake, and they stupidly fell for it.
It's hard for me to imagine that many people who were into watching football starting to boycott it because of the protests. But my imagination isn't very good. Is there data saying that viewership is going down because of the protests?

I know viewership has ben falling over the past several seasons, and I've heard several reasons proposed. I think a major contributor is that fewer parents are allowing their kids to play and are instead getting them into soccer and other sports.

And, damn these protests. Everything is going to be political in the near future. The NYT can't even print a recipe anymore without mentioned how it is a delicious respite from these troubled times, or characterizing it as part of "the resistance". Ugh.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:25 AM   #291
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Monica was kneeling years ago
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:25 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Is "up 3%" consistent with your prediction?
He made no short term prediction at all, far as I can tell, but he sure fell for applecorped's pun to proclaim victory for his long term prediction.

Honestly, Zig's analysis is a bit silly. The player protests had negligible effect until Trump decided to drag it back into the news, far as I can see. Now, it's a large (if pointless) debate and I agree that the NFL may lose some viewers as a result (and certainly gain none, since no one will decide to support the NFL by watching games they wouldn't otherwise watch).

But any effect hereafter is due to Trump's self-insertion into the conversation in order to appeal to his base, and not to the anthem protests. And good for the NFL teams to support their players' ability to respectfully register protest during the anthem, even if it costs them money[1].

Good as well for the Cowboys[2], who found a way for the team to show solidarity that (1) involved everyone on the team and (2) required no one to kneel during the anthem[3]. As it happens, the team action may have prohibited players from kneeling during the anthem -- I'm not sure -- but even if so, it seemed like a decent compromise to me.

[1] Can't help but think that solidarity and loyalty aren't the only motives for the teams, but I could be wrong.

[2] Bah!

[3] Those of us who support the right of simple protests by taking a knee during the anthem surely shouldn't deny that other players want to show solidarity without taking a knee during the anthem. (Frankly, other players may not want to show solidarity. That's a tougher issue for team owners, I guess, since it involves friction between players and their political attitudes.)
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:27 AM   #293
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So you know that brave Steeler player who went out for the National Anthem all by himself? What a hero?

Whoops
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/steeler...inkId=42775944

He didn't mean to do that. He got stuck in the wrong place.

Oh, and what does he think about players kneeling for the anthem? He completely supports them.

Not quite the poster child for standing up for America now, is he?
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:30 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not Trump yapping that made viewership drop. It was the NFL doubling down on the protests that did. He goaded them into a mistake, and they stupidly fell for it.

As for his motives? Attention, an easy victory, planet X, doesn't really matter. Trump gonna Trump.
What makes you think Trump's attacks won't up NFL ratings rather than depress them?

Trump's Mostly False claim that NFL ratings are 'way down'
Quote:
Once again, Trump seems to be overstating rating declines, and we found little evidence of their political motivation. ...

Average attendance for 2017 thus far is also down — by 5 percent, while gross attendance is off 8 percent from 2016.

Trump might be referring to 2016, a year when the NFL saw a significant drop in viewership, although average game attendance increased by 3 percent from 2015 to 2016. ...
Gee, you'd think that patriotic NASCAR would be getting a boost from Trump's Tweets.
Quote:
"I think it’s really important to note the NFL is not declining while other leagues are increasing," Paulsen said. "NASCAR ratings are in the cellar right now. The NBA had some of its lowest rated games ever on network television last year … It’s an industry-wide phenomenon and the NFL isn’t immune to it anymore."
Then there is this little propaganda piece:
Quote:
Trump spokesman Steven Cheung pointed to a Seton Hall Sports Poll that found that 56 percent of 841 respondents cited players not standing for the national anthem as a reason for last year’s ratings drop.

But as CNBC pointed out, the poll asked why other people — rather than respondents — aren't watching football. ...

"Among the 12 percent who watch less (sports), 26 percent of them say national anthem protests are to blame, however those respondents reflect only 3 percent of the full, nationwide sample," the researchers wrote.

Various pundits criticized the survey results as negligible, pointing out that for every one person turned off by protests, 10 NFL fans tuned in.
And as for TV ratings, there is the shift to streaming and I'm not sure how that impact was accounted for or not. But regardless, it appears that you Zig, bought the koolaid without much critical thought.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:34 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
So you know that brave Steeler player who went out for the National Anthem all by himself? What a hero?

Whoops
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/steeler...inkId=42775944

He didn't mean to do that. He got stuck in the wrong place.

Oh, and what does he think about players kneeling for the anthem? He completely supports them.

Not quite the poster child for standing up for America now, is he?
If I understand correctly, he did want to view the flag during the anthem, but without making a scene and privately. Perfectly understandable.

I'd also have understood a willingness to publicly stand for the flag, of course, but it was a private, not public, respect he aimed for.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:39 AM   #296
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I think the whole huba-baloo is ridiculous. If Trump didn't say anything about it, it wouldnt be much of an issue, but now he's gone and pissed off a bunch of people in the NFL because he tried to tell them what to do.

Though I gotta say, it's funny reading a thread on one of those stupid facebook memes that has a bunch of Dallas fans praising Dallas because they won't kneel. That was, of course, all before the game last night. I'm slowly expanding the comments until I get to when the game started.... the anticipation is thrilling.

EDIT: Ugh facebook sucks when it comes to long threads. It's so slow I can't get to game time.

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Old 26th September 2017, 10:55 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
But what would have been their correct choice as you see it?
To ignore him completely.

Quote:
I presume the correct choice would not include firing athletes for kneeling rather than standing, right? Because that would represent the NFL choosing to preserve their income stream over preserving the rights of American citizens to protest peacefully.
Well, no. Firing someone doesn't prevent them from protesting. And nobody has a right to a job from the NFL.

Nor would the NFL have to fire anyone. If they want players to stand for the anthem, there are other incentives short of firing, such as suspensions or fines. They do that all the time. And they've done it before for players who protested the anthem.

Quote:
Not only tacky but fundamentally unAmerican as I see it. But then, isn't that exactly what Trump is seeking- to financially punish the the NFL into doing his bidding? Both creepy and odious.
Sure. But they're still letting themselves be suckered into a losing position.

Quote:
Also wouldn't firing the players violate their legal contracts and the NFL's agreements with their union?
That would depend upon the details of the contracts, which I have not examined. But again, it's not necessary.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:58 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
The NYT can't even print a recipe anymore without mentioned how it is a delicious respite from these troubled times, or characterizing it as part of "the resistance". Ugh.
Please tell me you're joking.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:59 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What makes you think Trump's attacks won't up NFL ratings rather than depress them?
Because why would people watch an entire football game just to see some protests at the start?

That's not how interest works. It takes less to make people uninterested than to make them interested.
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:09 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because why would people watch an entire football game just to see some protests at the start?

That's not how interest works. It takes less to make people uninterested than to make them interested.
They should just skip the whole thing. Unless you've got more than one country participating, playing the anthem is ridiculous... and then you should play the anthem of the winner, after the game.
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:23 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because why would people watch an entire football game just to see some protests at the start?

That's not how interest works. It takes less to make people uninterested than to make them interested.
And how does massive publicity work? Think it might have an effect?
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:24 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
They should just skip the whole thing.
That would be a better option than what they're doing now.
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:28 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And how does massive publicity work? Think it might have an effect?
So you want to blame the media, then?
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, neither did Agnew. William Safire wrote his stuff.

Yeah, I know. But being able to deliver them would still be a major stumbling block.
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:22 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That would be a better option than what they're doing now.
Stop agreeing with me, Zig. This is getting weird!
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:23 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That would be a better option than what they're doing now.
The current option seems fine.
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:28 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But at least we can still enjoy watching black men get brain damage. That is the best part after all.
Let's take the word black or of that.

They signed up. If one does not look into the repercussions of the sport that is no one's fault but their own. Go flip a burger if it's that horrible.
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:31 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Indeed lost in the kneeling controversy is Trump's expressed frustration with the NFL's concerns (such that there are) about head injuries.

"Today if you hit too hard — 15 yards!” Trump said at a rally in Alabama. “They’re ruining the game.”

Apparently he is against the players kneeling but it is okay, even preferable, if they stagger around a bit after repeated concussions and eventually progress to dementia. As long as the don't fall to their knees I guess.

Really- it is a small price for the players to pay for the privilege of entertaining him. And the essential core of the entertainment for Trump is watching the violent hits; strategy, skill, scoring just aren't enough to hold his interest.
Do you think any of that actually goes through his mind? He's appealing to his base, what makes you think he has to believe any of it himself?
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:09 PM   #309
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Trump is still pissed off after all these years that he never got to buy an NFL franchise. To him it really has nothing to do with kneeling, standing or laying down. The man never gives up a grudge. It's payback time even though he's the only one that it matters to.
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:17 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Stop agreeing with me, Zig. This is getting weird!
Now I'm confused. If I disagree with you, then I'm merely agreeing to your request to stop agreeing with you. So I guess I'll have to disagree with your request, and keep on agreeing with you.

Or vice versa.
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:23 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Now I'm confused. If I disagree with you, then I'm merely agreeing to your request to stop agreeing with you. So I guess I'll have to disagree with your request, and keep on agreeing with you.
You and your damned logic!
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:30 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Now I'm confused. If I disagree with you, then I'm merely agreeing to your request to stop agreeing with you. So I guess I'll have to disagree with your request, and keep on agreeing with you.
Is that like disagreeing to agree?
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:31 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So you want to blame the media, then?
Are you playing a stupid game or did you not get it I was talking about the publicity potentially increasing NFL viewers not the protests decreasing them.

I get it you cannot imagine people actually agree with these athletes and others speaking out against police brutality against blacks. It's a small right-wing minority of Trump followers and other racists that think speaking out against racism is somehow an unpatriotic slight on soldiers.

Kind of like the idiots who are calling these guys ungrateful millionaires don't have a clue how racist that is.
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:34 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Let's take the word black or of that.

They signed up. If one does not look into the repercussions of the sport that is no one's fault but their own. Go flip a burger if it's that horrible.
So the league taking action to decrease head trauma is wrong? Or are you disputing more black team members are affected because they hold a larger proportion of the positions that get knocked around?
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:40 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I get it you cannot imagine people actually agree with these athletes and others speaking out against police brutality against blacks.
No, that's not at all what I think (big surprise, you can't imagine I'm anything other than the caricature you've formed in your head). But I don't think many people watch sports games just because they agree with the politics of the player.
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Old 26th September 2017, 01:55 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, that's not at all what I think (big surprise, you can't imagine I'm anything other than the caricature you've formed in your head). But I don't think many people watch sports games just because they agree with the politics of the player.
Yeah, it's hard enough to enjoy sports as it is. Adding the additional burden of making sure all the players are people you like and agree with would be a bit taxing.

This reminds me of after I heard the Christian Bale tirade it became a bit harder for me to enjoy his movies.
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Old 26th September 2017, 02:25 PM   #317
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Trump is deeply concerned about respect for the flag, but apparently has no problem with people waving the flags of nations that were enemies of the USA.
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Old 26th September 2017, 02:40 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
"I prefer somone who burns the flag and then wraps themselves up in the Constitution over someone who burns the Constitution and then wraps themselves up in the flag.”
― Molly Ivins
I feel the above quote needs to be posted again as it aptly captures the heart of this whole situation.

Far too many American's are unfortunately the latter and don't get that they are promoting a symbol of the principles of America over the actual principles of America.
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Old 26th September 2017, 02:41 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And if Molly Ivins could just find somebody who burns the constitution she'd have made a valid point.
This
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Old 26th September 2017, 02:51 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
This
You know they aren't literally wrapping themselves in flags, yeah?
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