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View Poll Results: Does gender privilege exist in the US?
Yes, gender privilege does exist in the US + I am male 73 76.04%
No, gender privilege does NOT exist in the US + I am male 5 5.21%
Yes, gender privilege does exist in the US + I am NOT male 16 16.67%
No, gender privilege does NOT exist in the US + I am NOT male 2 2.08%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 26th September 2017, 10:12 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
As I said, there's a difference between an anti-woman *bias* and an anti-woman *action*.
Yes but what I'm saying is that a bias that makes you take action in favour of something can't possibly be called anti-that-something, in my book. You can say it's misguided or wrong, but not anti-that-something.

Quote:
If I think that women are incapable of doing math because their weak feminine brains are just too fragile, that is an anti-woman bias regardless of what actions I take.

Now I might, driven by this bias, not hire women because I don't think they'll be able to do the math the job requires. This is obviously an anti-woman action.
Would you say that affirmative action is anti-women or anti-minorities? It does seem to stem from the idea that they can't get jobs on their own without help.

Again, that's ridiculous to me. Anti- means "against". You're not against someone when you're trying to help them, no matter how misguided you are.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes but what I'm saying is that a bias that makes you take action in favour of something can't possibly be called anti-that-something, in my book. You can say it's misguided or wrong, but not anti-that-something.
As I pointed out in my post, a single bias can cause someone to take multiple actions, some of which are beneficial to X and some are detrimental. So clearly the bias itself can and must be evaluated separately from the impact of the actions the person takes.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Would you say that affirmative action is anti-women or anti-minorities? It does seem to stem from the idea that they can't get jobs on their own without help.
I've never seen anyone justify those programs in that way, so it seems like a straw man to me.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:29 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post


Would you say that affirmative action is anti-women or anti-minorities? It does seem to stem from the idea that they can't get jobs on their own without help.

Again, that's ridiculous to me. Anti- means "against". You're not against someone when you're trying to help them, no matter how misguided you are.
I think straw man. It does not stem from them not being able to get jobs on their own. The whole idea is there are systematic influences that prejudice others. If it truly was on their own it would not be needed.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:31 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
If I do something for you because I think you are physically and mentally incapable of doing it for yourself, then you are getting a benefit (I'm doing a thing for you) and it's based on a bias against you (I think you're incapable).
A lot of these "chivalrous" or sexist or whatever you want to call it, things which are done to help women, are done because people think women are (as a group and on the whole) less physically strong than men and less mentally strong as well. Less capable of dealing with stress, more emotional, worse at logic, math and critical thinking.

All of those things are true on a group level, comparing men and women on the whole.

I guess it's insulting to the 14 year old who is very sharp and well-read, politically aware, etc. that (s)he isn't permitted to vote for 4 more years simply because it's assumed, on the basis of their group and biological status they have no control over, that they aren't capable of doing that reliably. But societies are things which operate at a very large scale and many things, whether they be laws or customs, are calculated to reflect how MOST people are. This is as it should be.

The exceptional woman has always been able to make her exceptional status clear by efforts to do so. Sometimes it's been harder to do that than at other times, but even in the 1700's, 1800's, etc. if a woman was highly unusual, and she wanted to be recognized as such... she could make that happen.
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Old 26th September 2017, 04:40 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's a bias, sure, but it's hardly anti-me if the goal is to help me.
Don't worry your pretty little head about it, sweetie. I know math is hard and thinking is difficult for women. Just let us men help you, so you don't have to worry about it. Go ahead and stay home with the babies, and we men will be the providers. It's not at all anti-woman, dear! I'm only doing this to help you!
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Don't worry your pretty little head about it, sweetie. I know math is hard and thinking is difficult for women. Just let us men help you, so you don't have to worry about it. Go ahead and stay home with the babies, and we men will be the providers. It's not at all anti-woman, dear! I'm only doing this to help you!
Well, the societies which have embraced feminism to any degree are the same societies with sub-replacement birth rates and women on anti-depressants with studies showing them more miserable with each passing decade...

If gender equality makes both sexes miserable and craters your nation's birth rate, whatever else may be said against or in favor of it is irrelevant. It cannot be permitted. It is incompatible with the society surviving. Papering over death-spiral birthrates temporarily by flooding the nation with people from intact patriarchies in the third world is a cheap (and ultimately far more destructive) way to avoid facing the consequences of this nonsense.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:39 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Don't worry your pretty little head about it, sweetie. I know math is hard and thinking is difficult for women. Just let us men help you, so you don't have to worry about it. Go ahead and stay home with the babies, and we men will be the providers. It's not at all anti-woman, dear! I'm only doing this to help you!
We were discussing stuff that actually helps women, not stuff that claims to but doesn't.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:46 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Don't worry your pretty little head about it, sweetie. I know math is hard and thinking is difficult for women. Just let us men help you, so you don't have to worry about it. Go ahead and stay home with the babies, and we men will be the providers. It's not at all anti-woman, dear! I'm only doing this to help you!
Wow, that's a strawman rivaling ponderingturtle's best.
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Old 26th September 2017, 05:47 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
If gender equality makes both sexes miserable and craters your nation's birth rate, whatever else may be said against or in favor of it is irrelevant. It cannot be permitted. It is incompatible with the society surviving.
It really depends on what your values and objectives are. Immigration can prevent falling numbers and society can "survive" even if wildly different after a few generations.
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Old 26th September 2017, 06:10 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post

If gender equality makes both sexes miserable and craters your nation's birth rate, whatever else may be said against or in favor of it is irrelevant. It cannot be permitted. It is incompatible with the society surviving.
I see no reason a society should continue to survive. If we achieve greatness and choose to retire and Peter out on our own terms, we won.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:39 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
A guy could pass for a woman...or pass for straight, gay, or whatever orientation...but the 'old reckoning' throws me, too. Old reckoning, as I recall, is any willing gay encounter, and the one-drop rule.
Race in the south is determined by the mother. I took it to mean he is considered white because his mother is white. My mother was black so in 1962 I was considered black, by the old rule, although I look white.


Yes, gender privilege exists, every time I walk onto a car lot to buy a car the salesman will inevitably address the male who happened to be with me first.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If a specific form of discrimination helps women, how is that "anti-woman"? That's an obvious contradiction.
There's short term help, and long term help, isn't there?

There are some forms of discrimination that provide short term assistance, but ensure second class status.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
A guy could pass for a woman...or pass for straight, gay, or whatever orientation...but the 'old reckoning' throws me, too. Old reckoning, as I recall, is any willing gay encounter, and the one-drop rule.
I have a penis. Am I male?

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Old 26th September 2017, 08:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Yes, gender privilege exists, every time I walk onto a car lot to buy a car the salesman will inevitably address the male who happened to be with me first.
And?

That's not gender privilege. That's an assumption, or a bias, but it only becomes gender privilege if you let it become gender privilege. If you let the salesman deal with the man, and then go along with what the man does, then that is 100% on you.

And why the heck is there a man who "happened to be with" you while you were buying a car anyway? My wife always wants to tag along when I buy a car. it's a bloody nuisance. And she always wants me there when she buys one, which is an even bigger nuisance. So who's privileged in that situation?

And every time we go to buy home décor, like kitchen cabinets and such, they always talk to her first. Who's privileged here?

People treat men and women differently because men and women typically act differently, and salesmen treat people as typical people until they learn that you are not typical people. If, after you make it clear that you are the customer, and not this mystery guy who happens to be with you is just tagging along for reasons unclear, if at that point he continues to interact with the guy more than you, then you have a legitimate gripe.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:32 PM   #55
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For what it's worth, there is real discrimination against women that I have seen. I have seen at least one instance where I recommended hiring someone who was not hired for our department, and I am close to 100% certain it was simply because she was a woman. I have watched on my high school robotics team as girls are encouraged to get into the marketing side of the team, instead of engineering. The discrimination is real, but there's something that makes me uncomfortable about the term "gender privilege", and even more uncomfortable about some of the examples I see cited.

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Old 26th September 2017, 08:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Men go into the store and see one shampoo priced a dollar more than another with the same ingredients and say, "It's just shampoo, I'm buying the cheaper one. "
Shampoo has ingredients?




(And yes, I am agreeing with you. I buy shampoo that is cheap and doesn't mention a scent on the label. If it smells funny, I use the whole bottle and buy something else next time.)
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have a penis. Am I male?

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Beats me, but I would assume so. Assuming you mean, like, attached and working and all, as opposed to, say, in a glass case.

Not to be obtuse, but the post confused me:

1) straight (bisexual) - Isn't bi the B in LGBTQ? As in pretty solidly in the 'not straight' group?
2) white (biracial) - I was not aware there was a choice here either. President Obama was never referred to as white, for instance.
3) male (by old reckoning) - Really lost now. Does this mean Y chromosome and penis-having is old reckoning, and if so, what is the new reckoning? This new-fangled 'I choose to identify as an attack helicopter' thing?

Seriously, I don't get it.
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Old 26th September 2017, 08:52 PM   #58
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None of the above. Your poll stinks, but I appreciate your attempt.
Cold hard fact: if you have female genitalia, you have a privilege that your male fellow citizens do not.
My daughter was able to apply for a variety of federal college loans and assistance but not register for the draft. .
My son could not.

One data point of many. Ever since my brother got his draft card in 1975, and I dodged the draft (inside joke) by going to the Naval Academy (my cousin dodged the draft by enlisting in the Navy in 1970), and the Army finally went to all volunteer, I've paid close attention to the selective service thing. It's still a mess.

Quote:
This new-fangled 'I choose to identify as an attack helicopter' thing?
I so wanted to fly an Apache, and never got to. Got a ride in a Cobra once. Happy day, that was.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And?

That's not gender privilege. That's an assumption, or a bias, but it only becomes gender privilege if you let it become gender privilege. If you let the salesman deal with the man, and then go along with what the man does, then that is 100% on you.

And why the heck is there a man who "happened to be with" you while you were buying a car anyway? My wife always wants to tag along when I buy a car. it's a bloody nuisance. And she always wants me there when she buys one, which is an even bigger nuisance. So who's privileged in that situation?

And every time we go to buy home décor, like kitchen cabinets and such, they always talk to her first. Who's privileged here?

People treat men and women differently because men and women typically act differently, and salesmen treat people as typical people until they learn that you are not typical people. If, after you make it clear that you are the customer, and not this mystery guy who happens to be with you is just tagging along for reasons unclear, if at that point he continues to interact with the guy more than you, then you have a legitimate gripe.
Not so sure you're right there about those assumptions. I can recall buying a car by myself where the first sales guy wasn't very interested in helping me. I found another sales person. The first guy was rather stunned when I paid for the car outright, without a loan. It was obvious he'd made false assumptions about my income and no doubt in my mind gender contributed to his false assumptions.

I have a few stories about car repair shops who treat women like they are easy marks as well.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:03 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For what it's worth, there is real discrimination against women that I have seen. I have seen at least one instance where I recommended hiring someone who was not hired for our department, and I am close to 100% certain it was simply because she was a woman. I have watched on my high school robotics team as girls are encouraged to get into the marketing side of the team, instead of engineering. The discrimination is real, but there's something that makes me uncomfortable about the term "gender privilege", and even more uncomfortable about some of the examples I see cited.
Gender privilege goes both ways. I'm sure more than a few men are all too aware that child custody courts overwhelmingly favor mothers.

Edited to add, and as Darth points out, men in the US were drafted when women weren't.

But privilege often means income and status. And as your example shows, we've had to work hard to make strides in STEM fields.

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Old 26th September 2017, 09:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have a few stories about car repair shops who treat women like they are easy marks as well.
Car repair shops certainly target whomever they think they can con. And I am a hard case enough that my wife and I both agree that I'm the one to deal with those (let's keep this family friendly) because she doesn't thrive on the nitty gritty as much as I do. Not sure if that is all about XX versus XY chromosomes, or due to her being a Type B personality in contrast to my Type A, but here's a thought.

My mother-in-law drives a very hard bargain no matter whom she deals with. She only does car repair by referral or with someone she knows. She gets value on the dollar. She's 84 this December, raised in the Depression, knows the value of a buck. (I don't like her much since our personalities are the old oil and water deal, but she's figured this thing out, to be sure). I think that there are two kinds of customers: those like my mother in law, and victims.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Race in the south is determined by the mother. I took it to mean he is considered white because his mother is white. My mother was black so in 1962 I was considered black, by the old rule, although I look white.
Never heard that before. I always heard the one-drop rule, which I thought was pretty racist, as it implies contamination (because conversely, one drop of white blood was not seen as being white).

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Yes, gender privilege exists, every time I walk onto a car lot to buy a car the salesman will inevitably address the male who happened to be with me first.
Okay, but is that an example of privilege? Might the salesperson, based on their experience, find that the guy tends to be the person more inclined to discuss cars with? I am assuming the OP means privilege in the sense of some sort of added benefit (awaiting response on this). I don't think the car-lot salesmanperson example is indicative of a benefit, or privilege. Maybe an assumed role, but is that really a privilege? Sounds like more work for the dude.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:18 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Never heard that before. I always heard the one-drop rule, which I thought was pretty racist, as it implies contamination (because conversely, one drop of white blood was not seen as being white).
For a long time in Louisiana, the rule was 3/64ths as the go-no-go line. (This from a 60 minutes show about 25 years ago). No idea if that one's still on the books. Then again, the archaic folk of Louisiana still adhere in part to Code Napoleon and when I was taking business law classes, was still the only state not signed up to the commercial code all 49 other states had signed. (A few decades back, that may have since changed).
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:44 PM   #64
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I never buy tales of one person ignoring another, or focusing exclusively on another, or being too aggressively all over another, or insulting another, or flirting with another, or whatever. Especially first-person. Part of human nature, especially on subjects that we have emotional investment in, is to ascribe to other people whatever behavior we decided ahead of time to ascribe to them, no matter what they actually do, and accounts like that have a nearly zero record of matching what I saw in cases where I was there. And I have an objective fact on the issue of sales schlocks from the inside at a furniture store where I worked, not as a salesman but as a heavy-things-carrier. I heard precisely what the manager actually told his sales schlocks to do: always focus on the woman.
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Old 26th September 2017, 09:58 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
... I heard precisely what the manager actually told his sales schlocks to do: always focus on the woman.
Is that true when she comes in alone or just when she's standing by her man?
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:31 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
All you have to do is go to the shampoo aisle at Walgreens to see the gender tax in action. Price the average shampoo for men and then compare it to the average for women. (And then look at the "Multicultural" section and faint from the prices for black women. If paying less for the same product isn't a privilege, I don't know what is.

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If you are dim enough to but it because of the words on the front, not the ingredient list, that is no one's fault but your own.

By that logic there is a"hipster tax" for lush cosmetics and organic food. Pepole falling for advertising is an example of failed education, not failed equality.
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:32 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We were discussing stuff that actually helps women, not stuff that claims to but doesn't.
Who decides what actually helps and what doesn't?

Believe it or not, Emiliy's cat quote above is actually a very real thing. Quite often if you actually talk to the person in the street who is in favor of suppressing someone's rights will say they think it really is in their (the suppressed) favor.

Ask the religious extreme (in my country it's a very hot topic) and they will constantly tell you they love women and adore women and that is why they have to protect them and trapped them in the kitchen while covering them up. It really is for their own good - and they really do believe that.


Now who can say what is right or wrong? If we could easily enough prove that and call it a day... Well... The world would a lot less woo in it, right?
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Old 26th September 2017, 11:36 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Yes, but why do they have more expensive additives? The active ingredients are all the same. Yet businesses put lavender and honeydew scents in them and aggressively market them to women. What is the effect of a lifetime of gender identity images flooding all aspects of media that a woman consumes?

I believe it's quite easy to see that women are told from birth that they should want or even need certain things. And those things cost more money than is spent by men. That's privilege. That's a privilege that's darn near encoded into every aspect of our lives. Ignoring that by claiming any given woman has a choice is remarkably simplistic.
By that logic I would have a room full of sports merchandise. Look at me,I don't.

If someone is a sheep, that is their fault, to blame sexism (look at all the guys with rooms full of sports crap) is not only misunderstanding the problem, but an obvious wedging in of an agenda.

Oh no 10 dollar shampoo is marketed to women, flick the channel and see a 20000 sports car being marketed as the cure for being Unmanley. If people are buying either they are idiots.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:33 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Not so sure you're right there about those assumptions. I can recall buying a car by myself where the first sales guy wasn't very interested in helping me. I found another sales person. The first guy was rather stunned when I paid for the car outright, without a loan. It was obvious he'd made false assumptions about my income and no doubt in my mind gender contributed to his false assumptions.

I have a few stories about car repair shops who treat women like they are easy marks as well.
Absolutely those false assumptions are made all the time, and I am sure they are aggravating to deal with.

But, the first salesman made false assumptions and, as a consequence, the second salesman got the commission. That's as it should be.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:11 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
By that logic I would have a room full of sports merchandise.
Even more so, since the message about men and sports is not just that we're supposed to love them but also that we're worthless non-men if we aren't athletic, an idea which has no counterpart for women.

What we have here is just another routine run-of-the-mill example of feminists telling us that women have no internal mental processes of their own and are just empty vessels waiting for someone else to pour behaviors in for them. Why do feminists want us to think that of women?
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:55 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Even more so, since the message about men and sports is not just that we're supposed to love them but also that we're worthless non-men if we aren't athletic, an idea which has no counterpart for women.
I think it has a very obvious counterpart for women. Women are told that they are worthless non-women if they are not pretty.
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Old 27th September 2017, 09:23 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is that true when she comes in alone or just when she's standing by her man?
I do in-home sales of home improvements (windows, doors, roofs, etc... ) for a living. I can assure you that it behooves a salesman to direct most of his attentions to the woman of the house (at least initially). Most training for sales will teach this as gospel. It is believed by most sales professionals that far more emotion goes in to a purchase than does logic. Even the "engineer" type of customer (it is believed) is motivated to buy by leveraging his/her feeling that he/she has done the most thorough examination of the options available.
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Old 27th September 2017, 09:35 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Not so sure you're right there about those assumptions. I can recall buying a car by myself where the first sales guy wasn't very interested in helping me. I found another sales person. The first guy was rather stunned when I paid for the car outright, without a loan. It was obvious he'd made false assumptions about my income and no doubt in my mind gender contributed to his false assumptions.
It could also be that almost nobody buys a car from a dealer with cash.



Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have a few stories about car repair shops who treat women like they are easy marks as well.
I'd always assumed mechanics think this way but there's a conversation on another forum I'm involved in that had a conversation about this. It was suggested that men are seen as easier marks because they are afraid of seeming ignorant of cars. Its not implausible.

My old man, a salesman of many things from the 50s through the 70s, always said to sell to the wife as she'd be the one to actually make the decision.

Non of this proves anything, it suggests gender bias does exist but its not always what we'd expect.

That being said, gender bias clearly exists in the US and most other places. The balance of it does not favor women. I think currently gender norms are hurting men in the lower socio economic classes more than women and hurting women in higher socio economic classes more than men.

My evidence is largely that lower class men have much higher rates of unemployment but the still have pressure to be the bread winner. I think this contributes significantly to the increasing mortality rates that have made headlines of late. My evidence that women are hurt in higher classes, anecdotal observation from my work place.
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Old 27th September 2017, 09:40 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I do in-home sales of home improvements (windows, doors, roofs, etc... ) for a living. I can assure you that it behooves a salesman to direct most of his attentions to the woman of the house (at least initially).
See my father's advice above.

Quote:
Most training for sales will teach this as gospel. It is believed by most sales professionals that far more emotion goes in to a purchase than does logic. Even the "engineer" type of customer (it is believed) is motivated to buy by leveraging his/her feeling that he/she has done the most thorough examination of the options available.
I have long separated the world into, salesmen, engineers, and suckers. I suspect(due mostly to projection) that "engineer" type customers are put off by traditional sales tactics. For the most part, I've made my decision to buy or not buy prior to talking to a salesperson. Its rare for me to go from not buying to buying and common for me to got from buying to not buying because the salesperson's schpiel. I know a few other "engineers" that do the same.

Edit, I don't think this contradicts the notion that my decision to buy is motivated more by emotion than reason.

Last edited by ahhell; 27th September 2017 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 27th September 2017, 10:41 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
All you have to do is go to the shampoo aisle at Walgreens to see the gender tax in action. Price the average shampoo for men and then compare it to the average for women. (And then look at the "Multicultural" section and faint from the prices for black women. If paying less for the same product isn't a privilege, I don't know what is.
Prices reflect what the customer will pay. There are plenty of products where women could buy the functionally-identical "male" version, but don't.
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Old 27th September 2017, 11:15 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
Believe it or not, Emiliy's cat quote above is actually a very real thing.
Sure. But it still doesn't apply to anything I said.

Quote:
Now who can say what is right or wrong? If we could easily enough prove that and call it a day... Well... The world would a lot less woo in it, right?
That's overly optimistic. There's plenty of woo about stuff we already have proven, there's no reason to think that sex would be any different.
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Old 27th September 2017, 11:41 AM   #77
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It is "interesting" that some people regard programs designed to compensate for gender bias as actually creating gender bias. Scholarships specifically for women are intended to counteract that scholarships are not given to women as often. I'd love to see more current stats, but the most recent ones I found were that in 2012, 64% of college scholarships went to men DESPITE there being more scholarships specifically for women than for men. Just before 2000 the National Merit Scholarship wound up paying a lot of money when it was determined that they favored boys in awarding scholarships.
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Old 27th September 2017, 11:48 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Well, the societies which have embraced feminism to any degree are the same societies with sub-replacement birth rates and women on anti-depressants with studies showing them more miserable with each passing decade...

If gender equality makes both sexes miserable and craters your nation's birth rate, whatever else may be said against or in favor of it is irrelevant. It cannot be permitted. It is incompatible with the society surviving. Papering over death-spiral birthrates temporarily by flooding the nation with people from intact patriarchies in the third world is a cheap (and ultimately far more destructive) way to avoid facing the consequences of this nonsense.
Based on your earlier comments, there's little point in trying to talk about this with you, but here goes...I could ask you to show your sources, but what's the point? Overpopulation is a major pressing problem across the world - low birth rates are GOOD if we want to get it under control without radical actions.

Antidepressants help normalize chemical levels in the brain. They are prescribed more as mental health issues receive better attention and treatment, and as antidepressants have moved into other uses, such as chronic pain medication.

If you look up lists of countries ranked by overall happiness metrics and separate lists of "most feminist" countries, you will find there is a very high correlation. Not only does "feminism" make things better for women, it also makes things overall better for men. Men in more "feminist" countries can, among other things, expect to enjoy more paternity leave, better mental health support, and less social pressure to fill rolls they do not want to be in.

Meanwhile, the countries rated "least" feminist are places like Afghanistan and other third-world countries embroiled in long-term wars where people can expect to die at middle age, and are generally regarded by the 'western world' as being among the worst hellholes on Earth that we only show interest in if we want their oil.

But sure, keep believing that societies promoting gender equality are worse if that makes you happy.
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Old 27th September 2017, 11:58 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I do in-home sales of home improvements (windows, doors, roofs, etc... ) for a living. I can assure you that it behooves a salesman to direct most of his attentions to the woman of the house (at least initially). Most training for sales will teach this as gospel. It is believed by most sales professionals that far more emotion goes in to a purchase than does logic. Even the "engineer" type of customer (it is believed) is motivated to buy by leveraging his/her feeling that he/she has done the most thorough examination of the options available.
The existence of a gender association doesn't imply that a gender bias doesn't exist - it's a feedback loop.

There's a similar dynamic in health care. In the vast majority of situations, it's the woman in the household who makes decisions about health care for the entire family.
Why? Well, because women are much more likely to be the ones taking the kids to the doctor, and they're more likely to be homemakers.
Why? Well, because society expects women to be homemakers whose highest priority is their kids, and men are expected to be breadwinners who are too busy for that sort of thing.
Why? Well, because that's how it's been in the past.
Why? Well, because women are the ones who have babies, and historically women haven't been allowed to be breadwinners.

At some point, it's a bit circular: society has an expectation of behavior from both women and men... and becuase that expectation exists, most women and men tend to conform to that expectation, so you see a higher prevalence of men and women conforming to those expectations.

The problem is that some of those expectations limit agency, and reduce the freedoms of one of the groups in terms of economic independence and self-sufficiency.

Is there actually an biological reason that women can not be the primary breadwinner and men be the primary caretaker?

Just because that's how it's been in the past isn't sufficient - that argument doesn't work for anything other than gender. In the past, minorities were treated as secondary citizens or as the property of other people... That's certainly not a reasonable justification for continuing to treat minorities in that fashion now.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:00 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We were discussing stuff that actually helps women, not stuff that claims to but doesn't.
Who determines whether it actually helps women?
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