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View Poll Results: Does gender privilege exist in the US?
Yes, gender privilege does exist in the US + I am male 73 76.04%
No, gender privilege does NOT exist in the US + I am male 5 5.21%
Yes, gender privilege does exist in the US + I am NOT male 16 16.67%
No, gender privilege does NOT exist in the US + I am NOT male 2 2.08%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 27th September 2017, 12:02 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Is there actually an biological reason that women can not be the primary breadwinner and men be the primary caretaker?
No, there's no biological reason that cannot be the arrangement.

But there is reason to believe that there are biological reasons why that's less common than the reverse.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:06 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
Not only does "feminism" make things better for women, it also makes things overall better for men. Men in more "feminist" countries can, among other things, expect to enjoy more paternity leave, better mental health support, and less social pressure to fill rolls they do not want to be in.

Meanwhile, the countries rated "least" feminist are places like Afghanistan and other third-world countries embroiled in long-term wars where people can expect to die at middle age, and are generally regarded by the 'western world' as being among the worst hellholes on Earth that we only show interest in if we want their oil.


One of the largest factors for the progress of developing nations is the education of girls. Countries that educate their boys, but not their girls, simply don't progress as quickly, and have poorer health and economic outcomes.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:07 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, there's no biological reason that cannot be the arrangement.

But there is reason to believe that there are biological reasons why that's less common than the reverse.
What are those biological reasons?

Are you certain that they're actually biological reasons and not rationalizations for a social convention?
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:22 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Cat Not Included View Post
It is "interesting" that some people regard programs designed to compensate for gender bias as actually creating gender bias. Scholarships specifically for women are intended to counteract that scholarships are not given to women as often. I'd love to see more current stats, but the most recent ones I found were that in 2012, 64% of college scholarships went to men DESPITE there being more scholarships specifically for women than for men. Just before 2000 the National Merit Scholarship wound up paying a lot of money when it was determined that they favored boys in awarding scholarships.
In pretty much every OECD women now out number mean in University participation, in some by a very large margin.

Maybe more guys getting scholarships currently is a good thing

Strangely when the stats work the other way there doesn't seem to be the same gender equality calls.

Probably evidenced most by the lack of any real action to try to create a more balanced ratio of female to male teachers
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'd always assumed mechanics think this way but there's a conversation on another forum I'm involved in that had a conversation about this.
A conversation had a conversation??
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:37 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What are those biological reasons?

Are you certain that they're actually biological reasons and not rationalizations for a social convention?
Different sexes have different psychological characteristics. We know these are at least partly biological and not purely cultural because they respond to administered sex hormones.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:43 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Different sexes have different psychological characteristics. We know these are at least partly biological and not purely cultural because they respond to administered sex hormones.
Please expand. Which psychological characteristics are you referencing? Do you have some sources to support your position?
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Old 27th September 2017, 01:04 PM   #88
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All the presidents have been males, 80% of Congress are males, nearly all fortune 500 CEO's are male, women have been voting for less than a hundred years, and some people are going to try and claim gender privileges balance each other out? LOL.

The sliding scale of privilege in this country starts with white men and ends with black women. If you're a white male in this country, you have so many advantages you have to be a complete loser to complain about anything.
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Old 27th September 2017, 01:14 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Huh? 'Check your privilege' would still 'work' depending on the context. If a woman can't see something as a problem or doesn't believe a problem is as impactful as it is to some men because she's being deceived by her privileged position, then telling her to 'check her privilege' would be a short (and curt, possibly rude) way of stating this. This would also work for men falling into the same perceptual trap.

It wouldn't 'work' for those who misuse the term and think it simply means 'you're x, so wrong'.
This "misuse" is the primary use for the term. Case in point:

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
All the presidents have been males, 80% of Congress are males, nearly all fortune 500 CEO's are male, women have been voting for less than a hundred years, and some people are going to try and claim gender privileges balance each other out? LOL.

The sliding scale of privilege in this country starts with white men and ends with black women. If you're a white male in this country, you have so many advantages you have to be a complete loser to complain about anything.
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Old 27th September 2017, 01:16 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
All the presidents have been males, 80% of Congress are males, nearly all fortune 500 CEO's are male, women have been voting for less than a hundred years, and some people are going to try and claim gender privileges balance each other out? LOL.
Why do you assume that any of that would be different if these gender privileges would be balanced?

Since you mentioned the plural, privileges, I assume you know that even if they are balanced, it would lead to the sexes being represented differently in various fields and contexts.
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Old 27th September 2017, 01:23 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If you're a white male in this country, you have so many advantages you have to be a complete loser to complain about anything.
This is why folks vote for trump. The poor white trash who's family has never had anything more than a high school education nor a job more skilled than a cashier does not have the same privilege a person who's the child of a couple of college professors. That guy is tired of being told how great he's had it all these. It infuriates me how blind some folks are to this. The fact that the Bush family has been in positions of power for over a hundred years some how means that the family who's picked fruit or dug up coal for the same hundred years can't complain.

I am in now way denying gender or white privilege but it is often dwarfed by class privilege.

Edit to change black women to person. My point was meant to be about class, shouldn't have injected race and gender.

Last edited by ahhell; 27th September 2017 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 27th September 2017, 01:26 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post


One of the largest factors for the progress of developing nations is the education of girls. Countries that educate their boys, but not their girls, simply don't progress as quickly, and have poorer health and economic outcomes.
That being said, did you know that the percentage of women in STEM fields actually decreases when a country is well-developed and takes care of its citizens? In Iran, a country you would suppose has far lesser women's rights than the US, UK, Netherlands or Germany, 57% of STEM graduates are women, and they make up about 47% of the STEM workforce. The number is similarly high in countries such as Bangladesh, India, Myanmar and Uzbekistan.

There are some very interesting theories as to why this is so, but this is probably not the thread for it.

Last edited by Dipayan; 27th September 2017 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 27th September 2017, 02:27 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Different sexes have different psychological characteristics. We know these are at least partly biological and not purely cultural because they respond to administered sex hormones.
That and the fact that women produce milk from their bodies for babies, and men do not.

Women are the ones who actually gestate and give birth to children. The idea that it is just as natural for men to swoop in and be the primary caregivers after that, or after a year of breastfeeding, is completely silly.

I was just looking at an article about how hormones active in women of childbearing age make women more aware of the differences between baby faces and more able to distinguish which baby is which. Women who are older and in whom these hormones are no longer active, score no better on this test than men.

Every single thing about our biology is calculated to make women the caregivers of children and men the hunters and defenders and leaders.

Complaining about all the presidents being men is a buffoonish thing to do. Once a person accepts the reality of sex differences which ALL of our ancestors had no problem seeing first hand (and which we only sort of pretend to have a hard time seeing because of our immense wealth, luxury, ease and ability to afford affirmative action and make-work jobs for people who aren't actually doing much of anything) it becomes no more logical to complain about all the presidents being men, than it is to complain about all the mothers of presidents being women.

We. are. not. the. same.

Oh and it's only the most twisted of societies which trades in its ability to actually make its own new generations for a boost to its GDP by encouraging its women to flood into the workplace. Oh but we'll pretend the consequences of this aren't happening by also flooding our nations with people from societies which still have their women giving birth to enough kids to not only replace them, but replace us too. No possible problems could result from that... other than the small matter of our genocide and our culture being absolutely torn apart from within.

Populace Science article about baby faces
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Old 27th September 2017, 02:58 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The sliding scale of privilege in this country starts with straight white men and ends with gay black women.
FTFY
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:00 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why do you assume that any of that would be different if these gender privileges would be balanced?
Yeah, because women just aren't interested in leadership, right? They'd rather have babies and be mommies... It's **biology**... nothing to do with society
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:03 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This is why folks vote for trump. The poor white trash who's family has never had anything more than a high school education nor a job more skilled than a cashier does not have the same privilege a person who's the child of a couple of college professors. That guy is tired of being told how great he's had it all these. It infuriates me how blind some folks are to this. The fact that the Bush family has been in positions of power for over a hundred years some how means that the family who's picked fruit or dug up coal for the same hundred years can't complain.

I am in now way denying gender or white privilege but it is often dwarfed by class privilege.

Edit to change black women to person. My point was meant to be about class, shouldn't have injected race and gender.
Class privilege is a big one, certainly. But class is pretty wrapped up with race, gender, etc. For class, there's at least some element of agency involved - it's not all random chance, some of it is the result of decisions; at least some of the elements of class are within the control of the person. Gender and race are explicitly outside of the control of the person - they have no agency with respect to those. Those are ones that can be addressed as low-hanging fruit.

*ETA: Low hanging fruit... on a really, really tall tree
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:08 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
FTFY
That's probably true.
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:16 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Class privilege is a big one, certainly. But class is pretty wrapped up with race, gender, etc. For class, there's at least some element of agency involved - it's not all random chance, some of it is the result of decisions; at least some of the elements of class are within the control of the person. Gender and race are explicitly outside of the control of the person - they have no agency with respect to those. Those are ones that can be addressed as low-hanging fruit.

*ETA: Low hanging fruit... on a really, really tall tree
I disagree, I think class is lower hanging than race or gender. devise programs intended to help folks targeting socio-economic class and it doesn't hit hot buttons and is much harder to argue against.

That being said, it doesn't really address gender. Indicators are that gender disparities are swinging the other way though. Women on average having higher educational achievement than men. The effects of that won't be fully realized for a good 20 years. Currently there are measurable gender bias when it comes to hiring college professors for instance. What will happen when 60, 70 or 80 percent of the qualified applicants are women?
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:26 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Dipayan View Post
That being said, did you know that the percentage of women in STEM fields actually decreases when a country is well-developed and takes care of its citizens? In Iran, a country you would suppose has far lesser women's rights than the US, UK, Netherlands or Germany, 57% of STEM graduates are women, and they make up about 47% of the STEM workforce. The number is similarly high in countries such as Bangladesh, India, Myanmar and Uzbekistan.

There are some very interesting theories as to why this is so, but this is probably not the thread for it.
That is very interesting. I would not have guessed it to be true.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:11 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yeah, because women just aren't interested in leadership, right? They'd rather have babies and be mommies... It's **biology**... nothing to do with society
That's a strawman, and a rather dismissive one at that.

I never said women "just aren't interested" to leadership roles. I said that in general they are less driven to this sort of thing, just like most men don't really like to dress people's hair. I didn't say they'd rather have babies. I said that there's a strong drive to have babies. I didn't say that it's ALL biology. I said biology plays a significant part; moreso than most people would like to admit. So it's a triple strawman in a very compact package.

I don't think it's controversial that men and women are significantly different, physiologically and chemically. It really isn't surprising that it affects our choices, just like our upbringing and social mores do.

If you want to argue with me, it would be nice if you at least argued with my actual points.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:32 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think it's controversial that men and women are significantly different, physiologically and chemically. It really isn't surprising that it affects our choices, just like our upbringing and social mores do.

If you want to argue with me, it would be nice if you at least argued with my actual points.
I'd happily argue your actual points, if you'd actually acknowledge the highilighted bit in any of our discussions, rather than suggesting that they have no impact.

You have seemed to repeatedly argue that differences in outcomes, employment, etc. between men and women can be explained by biology. Sure, technically you say "mostly"... yet you consistently argue against and dismiss any claim that society and upbringing are a not-insignificant element.

Oh, and in case it isn't patently obvious, those social mores and upbringing are a massive element of privilege.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:38 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why do you assume that any of that would be different if these gender privileges would be balanced?
Because I can't think of any other factors that would explain the incredibly lopsided nature of men in leadership positions in every category in this country: business, government, and religion.

I'm all ears, if you have some suggestions. It's possible that a lot of women are brainwashed by religious indoctrination to not aspire to be in a leadership position, but I don't think that's a good argument. Women's rights have lagged the rights of everyone else: right to vote, serve on the front lines, abortion, etc. This society just isn't comfortable with women in power.

Quote:
Since you mentioned the plural, privileges, I assume you know that even if they are balanced, it would lead to the sexes being represented differently in various fields and contexts.
There would be some variations, sure.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:38 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'd happily argue your actual points, if you'd actually acknowledge the highilighted bit in any of our discussions, rather than suggesting that they have no impact.
Now, Cat, I've just asked you to stop misrepresenting my points and arguments. I have never claimed or implied that biology is the only factor. If you're going to respond with a lie, then I guess there's no possible discussion with you.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:41 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Because I can't think of any other factors that would explain the incredibly lopsided nature of men in leadership positions in every category in this country: business, government, and religion.
So the issue is not that other factors don't exist, or that you can't fathom them, but rather than you have, without any obvious justification, decided that they cannot account for the differences you observe. Why?

Quote:
I'm all ears, if you have some suggestions.
Let's start with biology, then. Certainly we can agree that there are significant differences between men and women that can account for quite a disparity?

Quote:
There would be some variations, sure.
How would you know how much variation to expect? How would you know that a particular percentage of women and men in a given field or area is enough, too much or insufficient?
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:45 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Now, Cat, I've just asked you to stop misrepresenting my points and arguments. I have never claimed or implied that biology is the only factor. If you're going to respond with a lie, then I guess there's no possible discussion with you.
Read the whole damned post, you dishonest prat.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You have seemed to repeatedly argue that differences in outcomes, employment, etc. between men and women can be explained by biology. Sure, technically you say "mostly"... yet you consistently argue against and dismiss any claim that society and upbringing are a not-insignificant element.
Case in point:
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So the issue is not that other factors don't exist, or that you can't fathom them, but rather than you have, without any obvious justification, decided that they cannot account for the differences you observe. Why?
See, you won't actually ever acknowledge that other factors exist... instead you'll insist that there's no 'obvious' justification for them, or that there's no evidence of them, or you'll dismiss any research as being somehow not up to your standards, and you'll simply fall back on implying that biology explains it. You'll carefully dance around saying that biology explains it all... you'll just dismiss anything that isn't biology, and any time evidence is given that supports something other than biology, you'll come up with a fancy complicated rationalization for why it's actually biology and not the other factor at all... at which point you'll once again insist that there's no support for anything other than biology... but you're not claiming that it's all due to biology.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:46 PM   #106
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1827727.html

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"When offered the choice of playing with either a doll or a toy truck, girls will typically pick the doll and boys will opt for the truck. This isn’t just because society encourages girls to be nurturing and boys to be active, as people once thought. In experiments, male adolescent monkeys also prefer to play with wheeled vehicles while the females prefer dolls — and their societies say nothing on the matter.

The monkey research, conducted with two different species in 2002 and 2008, strongly suggested a biological explanation for children’s toy preferences. In recent years, the question has become: How and why does biology make males (be they monkey or human) prefer trucks, and females, dolls?"
Mind you, if hormones / biology account for why, on average, males will be more fascinated by a toy with moving parts (wheels) than girls (on average) - this alone would make all agonizing over men outnumbering women in STEM silly.

For people who claim to celebrate diversity, egalitarians sure do insist we're all identical other than some superficial exterior visual differences (which they'd also be denying if it weren't over the moon insane to try to do so because we have functioning eyes.)

Why not celebrate difference? Men and women are not the same, nor suited to the same things.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:46 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So the issue is not that other factors don't exist, or that you can't fathom them, but rather than you have, without any obvious justification, decided that they cannot account for the differences you observe. Why?



Let's start with biology, then. Certainly we can agree that there are significant differences between men and women that can account for quite a disparity?



How would you know how much variation to expect? How would you know that a particular percentage of women and men in a given field or area is enough, too much or insufficient?
Are you going to make an argument that biological differences are the reason women are so underrepresented in positions of power?
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:51 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How would you know how much variation to expect? How would you know that a particular percentage of women and men in a given field or area is enough, too much or insufficient?
Probably when you reach a point where women who want to be in those roles, and are qualified to be in those roles, no longer have challenges attaining those roles. Probably about the time when the number of women accepted into those roles is proportional to the number of women who applied for those roles.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:54 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Are you going to make an argument that biological differences are the reason women are so underrepresented in positions of power?
So you're not going to answer my questions and points?

I asked you three questions and you've essentially responded with an argument from incredulity, or perhaps it's an argument from shame? "You can't possibly think this heretical thought, can you?"

I'm asking you if you agree that men and women have different biologies and whether you think this could account for some differences. I'm also asking you how you determine whether the differences you see are too great for that, and why. You should be able to articulate this, rather than throw a question back at me instead.
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:57 PM   #110
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Argumemnon, have you realized that when it comes to gender, you have the same argument that Skeptic Tank does... but when it comes to race, you don't? Has that ever made you take a step back and consider your premise?
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:59 PM   #111
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Not a huge sample size, but still...

White people are more likely to acknowledge the existence of racial privilege than men are to acknowledge the existence of gender privilege.

Seems like that should prompt some introspection and discussion.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:05 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Argumemnon, have you realized that when it comes to gender, you have the same argument that Skeptic Tank does... but when it comes to race, you don't? Has that ever made you take a step back and consider your premise?
You should all step back an realize I'm right on both.

Stop being biology deniers.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:11 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Argumemnon, have you realized that when it comes to gender, you have the same argument that Skeptic Tank does... but when it comes to race, you don't? Has that ever made you take a step back and consider your premise?
Are you really so utterly unable to make an argument that you have to resort not only to lies but to fallacies like this? I'm wrong because Tank agrees with me, really?

I've made my meaning clear: men and women are different at the core. Regardless of social pressures, this means we have to expect differences in outcomes. That's it. Those are facts, not opinions. The argument part of my posts is that neither you nor Fudbucker nor myself knows how much of a difference to expect. But you seem to think that the biological differences could not possibly account for the observed differences in outcome.

I'm asking you to justify that, but your only response is fallacies and lies. I guess that says all that needs to be said about the strength of your position on this topic.



P.S.: The argument on race and the argument on gender are not at all the same; your contention that one should somehow either agree with both or disagree with both is ridiculous and nonsensical.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:11 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
You should all step back an realize I'm right on both.

Stop being biology deniers.
Do you think men have done a good job running things?
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:13 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you think men have done a good job running things?
What does that have to do with anything?

Why do you keep changing the subject and avoiding points and questions? Is the possibility that what you believe on this topic is wrong that scary?
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:16 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you really so utterly unable to make an argument that you have to resort not only to lies but to fallacies like this? I'm wrong because Tank agrees with me, really?

I've made my meaning clear: men and women are different at the core. Regardless of social pressures, this means we have to expect differences in outcomes. That's it. Those are facts, not opinions. The argument part of my posts is that neither you nor Fudbucker nor myself knows how much of a difference to expect. But you seem to think that the biological differences could not possibly account for the observed differences in outcome.

I'm asking you to justify that, but your only response is fallacies and lies. I guess that says all that needs to be said about the strength of your position on this topic.
My response is that, as a man, I know how guys think about women. I know the history of this country when it comes to women's rights. I know there are men in power who believe women who want abortions should be "vaginally wanded" and "punished".

So don't even try to give me some song and dance about "biological differences". What's next, I should read The Bell Curve?

ETA: the blatant misogyny and sexism that occurred during the election, culminating with the Access Hollywood tape. But that's all biological, am I right?

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Old 27th September 2017, 05:19 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
My response is that, as a man, I know how guys think about women. I know the history of this country when it comes to women's rights. I know there are men in power who believe women who want abortions should be "vaginally wanded" and "punished".

So don't even try to give me some song and dance about "biological differences". What's next, I should read The Bell Curve?

ETA: the blatant misogyny and sexism that occurred during the election, culminating with the Access Hollywood tape. But that's all biological, am I right?
None of this is relevant to any of my points and questions. I can only conclude that you'd rather not discuss it, not unlike Christians who would rather not discuss the contraditions in the Bible lest their faith be tested.

You can believe in equality without expecting sameness.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:53 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
In pretty much every OECD women now out number mean in University participation, in some by a very large margin.

Maybe more guys getting scholarships currently is a good thing

Strangely when the stats work the other way there doesn't seem to be the same gender equality calls.

Probably evidenced most by the lack of any real action to try to create a more balanced ratio of female to male teachers
I also wonder if you set aside athletic scholarships, do the numbers reach (closer to) parity? Which is not to say that means there isn't a problem, but that it's a much narrower problem (athletic scholarship inequity) which is itself driven by a different cultural bias (popularity of men's sports compared to women's) that enables the problem to exist at all (national television revenues creating a huge disparity in money available for scholarships).
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:53 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Not a huge sample size, but still...

White people are more likely to acknowledge the existence of racial privilege than men are to acknowledge the existence of gender privilege.

Seems like that should prompt some introspection and discussion.
Why? They are two different issues, and several posters have questioned what they even mean. You also say acknowledge, as if their existence is a certainty. You treat them as though they are the same undeniable, though undefined, issue.
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:52 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
By that logic there is a"hipster tax" for lush cosmetics and organic food.
My wife is on an organic food kick, so we pay the hipster tax. Blah. At least I don't have to wear those skinny jeans.
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