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View Poll Results: Does gender privilege exist in the US?
Yes, gender privilege does exist in the US + I am male 73 76.04%
No, gender privilege does NOT exist in the US + I am male 5 5.21%
Yes, gender privilege does exist in the US + I am NOT male 16 16.67%
No, gender privilege does NOT exist in the US + I am NOT male 2 2.08%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th September 2017, 08:43 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But you seem to think that the biological differences could not possibly account for the observed differences in outcome.
Using your own tactics, this is a lie.

Apply the same yardstick to your own posts that you do to the posts of others. I haven't said that biology can't account for the differences. I've acknowledged that biology creates some difference several times in the past (although you conveniently ignore it each time). I also, however, say that not all of the differences are from biology, and I've provided evidence and research to support that claim - evidence that you've repeatedly dismissed over the past couple of years.

So where does that leave us with respect to your attempts to poison the well by liberally throwing around accusations of dishonesty?
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Old 28th September 2017, 08:45 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You can believe in equality without expecting sameness.
Yeah, if you were inclined to actually engage and be open minded on this topic, you might have noticed that my arguments have been around equity, not equality. I have no expectation of sameness. I do have an expectation of equitable opportunity and unbiased treatment.

Is that really so much to ask for?
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:01 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Using your own tactics, this is a lie.
I didn't lie. It really does seem that way to me, as I said.

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I haven't said that biology can't account for the differences.
And yet you recently used the fact that Skeptic Tank agrees with me on that specific point as some sort of wake up call about it. You also brought up the fact that I used biology as a possible explanation for a good chunk of the disparity as some sort of indication that I was a sexist or at least just wrong on the topic. That doesn't make it sound like you agree that biology accounts for some of the differences.

Quote:
I've acknowledged that biology creates some difference several times in the past (although you conveniently ignore it each time).
Addressing something is not ignoring it. You are intepreting a continuing disagreement on the subject as me ignoring everything you said, presumably because if only I merely read and acknowledged your points, I'd agree with you entirely.

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I also, however, say that not all of the differences are from biology
So do I.

Quote:
I've provided evidence and research to support that claim - evidence that you've repeatedly dismissed over the past couple of years.
You say that as if that's a bad thing. We dismiss evidence that is unconvincing all the time.

Quote:
So where does that leave us with respect to your attempts to poison the well by liberally throwing around accusations of dishonesty?
Isn't what you're doing right now poisoning the well by stating that my goal was to poison the well as a premise to your argument?

You really should stop playing 'gotcha' with me, Cat. Those are pretty feeble attempts.

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I have no expectation of sameness.
Then what's the issue? I ask this question once more: how would you know what differences to expect, and how much is too much? How would you know that the differences hide something more than biology and culture?
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:12 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So do I.
Fine. I'll play your game. I'll make it simple for you: Some degree of biological difference exists.

Now it's your turn. Does some degree of non-biological, socially imposed difference exist?
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Then what's the issue? I ask this question once more: how would you know what differences to expect, and how much is too much? How would you know that the differences hide something more than biology and culture?
We've been through this before; ffs I gave a very explicit answer to this question already. But I'll give it another go.

When two resumes are evaluated for a job, and the content of the resumes is identical with the exception of the gender of the applicant... and when there is a measurable and statistically significant difference in the likelihood of men to be called in for an interview as opposed to women... Is that a difference that you think we should expect and accept?
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:20 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Fine. I'll play your game.
A game called "discussion".

Quote:
I'll make it simple for you: Some degree of biological difference exists.

Now it's your turn. Does some degree of non-biological, socially imposed difference exist?
Yes.

Some of those stem from biology, mind you, but others arise from more complex interactions and beliefs over the centuries. I don't think those are necessarily bad or good. It's simply a matter of fact that a society will evolve to develop these sorts of complexities over time. Is expectation that men should act in this and that way negative? Only if we codify it in laws or push it far enough that men that don't fit the expectation can't reasonably expect to perform in said society.

The problem for me is A) undue discrimination (which we have laws against), B) codified expectations (e.g. homosexuality being illegal) and C) social ostracisation based on these expectations. Now, those need to be dealt with, but beyond that, it's just inevitable that differences in biology and culture will affect the choices and options that people have. My father would've been a farmer like his father, but he chose to work hard to pay for his university and became a successful engineer, setting _me_ up to have all the choice in the world. My "privilege" is due to his hard work, not my skin colour.

Do you agree that there's a certain amount of social pressures that is both inevitable and not inherently harmful?
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:21 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
When two resumes are evaluated for a job, and the content of the resumes is identical with the exception of the gender of the applicant... and when there is a measurable and statistically significant difference in the likelihood of men to be called in for an interview as opposed to women... Is that a difference that you think we should expect and accept?
Absent any other mitigating factors, no.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:36 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
A game called "discussion".



Yes.

Some of those stem from biology, mind you,
Lol, so you'll admit that non-biological difference in treatment exist... but then go on to claim that some of those non-biological differences are actually biological?


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
but others arise from more complex interactions and beliefs over the centuries. I don't think those are necessarily bad or good.
Some of them are bad for me. The fact that you don't think that the belief that doesn't affect you isn't necessarily bad doesn't mean that it isn't bad for people like me, who ARE affected by that belief.


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's simply a matter of fact that a society will evolve to develop these sorts of complexities over time. Is expectation that men should act in this and that way negative?
If those expectations limit the agency of that man, then yes, it's negative. Why not frame your position from the perspective of a woman? Give that a go. Is it negative that a women is expected to be docile and collaborative? What if that women has both the skill and the intelligence to be a great leader? Is it negative that the expectation of behavior for a woman is exactly the behaviors that make for a bad leader? Is it negative that a woman who is not docile and collaborate, a woman that is decisive, in control, and confident is viewed as being 'unfeminine' or is referred to as 'butch' or 'manly' as a derogatory term? Is it negative that such a woman is viewed in an unfavorable light?

And if you don't think that's a thing, look back at the past US election. Think about some of the attacks used against Clinton. All the references to her pantsuits (because professional women are expected to wear dresses and heels)? The derisive comments about her being unfeminine? Because a woman being unfeminine is considered bad - it's outside of the expectation of behavior for a woman. A man acting the same way would be just fine - those are behaviors that are expected of a man. But if a woman acts that way, she is defying convention and that's a point against her.

So... does that mean it's negative? Or is it neither good nor bad in your book? Does it limit the agency and opportunities of women?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Only if we codify it in laws or push it far enough that men that don't fit the expectation can't reasonably expect to perform in said society.
We already do this. Since you insist on framing it from a male perspective... Do you know how difficult it is for a man to run a daycare? Do you know how difficult it is for a man to be a nurse?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The problem for me is A) undue discrimination (which we have laws against), B) codified expectations (e.g. homosexuality being illegal) and C) social ostracisation based on these expectations. Now, those need to be dealt with, but beyond that, it's just inevitable that differences in biology and culture will affect the choices and options that people have.
Are you okay with those cultural difference that limit the choices and options that people have?

Would you be okay with this argument if the cultural differences were limiting the choices and options of a group of people based on the color of their skin, rather than what's between their legs?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you agree that there's a certain amount of social pressures that is both inevitable and not inherently harmful?
I agree that some of it is not inherently harmful. I don't agree that non-biological differences in opportunity and agency are inevitable.

Do you agree that there's a certain amount of social pressure that is NOT inevitable AND is inherently harmful to the people on the negative side of that pressure?
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:39 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Absent any other mitigating factors, no.
There are no other mitigating factors. That was the point of the several studies that explored this.

So, given that there were no other mitigating factors, and you think that it's not something we should expect or accept...

Are you willing to discuss those situations and others like them?

Are you willing to refer to those sorts of situations as reflections of privilege? If not, please suggest an alternative term to use. I'll happily use some other term (assuming it makes sense) in order to move the discussion forward.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:47 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Lol, so you'll admit that non-biological difference in treatment exist... but then go on to claim that some of those non-biological differences are actually biological?
Once again you just post out of sheer incredulity but forget to make an argument. Yes, much of our behaviour is based on biology. It stands to reason that a lot of social mores will be based on it as well. That isn't controversial.

Quote:
Some of them are bad for me. The fact that you don't think that the belief that doesn't affect you isn't necessarily bad doesn't mean that it isn't bad for people like me, who ARE affected by that belief.
I said that they are not necessarily good or bad. Of course some of them I will consider bad.

Quote:
If those expectations limit the agency of that man, then yes, it's negative.
Poor choice of word on my part. Is it a problem?

Quote:
Why not frame your position from the perspective of a woman?
Does it matter more for one gender than for the other? I thought you believe in equality. I chose a man simply because we usually pick a woman. You know, for diversity.

Quote:
Give that a go.
Oh stop doing that. My comment applies to individuals regardless of gender or colour or anything else. I made that explicit. Stop acting as if you're teaching me the ways of the world. It's condescending and silly, and it hurts your argument.

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We already do this.
Yes, we do. I already spoke out against this, didn't I?

Quote:
Since you insist on framing it from a male perspective...
I had to pick an example, Cat. Why pretend as if the examples I didn't pick I somehow ignored? You can complain about me calling you on dishonesty but if you bothered to A) read what I actually post and B) not put a spin on everything I say, you might be a target of that accusation less often.

Quote:
Are you okay with those cultural difference that limit the choices and options that people have?
I've addressed that in the post you quoted. Remember when I said it wasn't worth responding to you? Stop proving it.

Quote:
Would you be okay with this argument if the cultural differences were limiting the choices and options of a group of people based on the color of their skin, rather than what's between their legs?
Idem.

Quote:
I agree that some of it is not inherently harmful.
Ok, how do you determine when it becomes harmful?

Quote:
I don't agree that non-biological differences in opportunity and agency are inevitable.
Well we're at an impasse, because you're now denying the existence of social dynamics.

Quote:
Do you agree that there's a certain amount of social pressure that is NOT inevitable AND is inherently harmful to the people on the negative side of that pressure?
Obviously. That's implied in the post you quoted.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:49 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Are you willing to discuss those situations and others like them?
When was I not? The issue here is that you interpreted a request for evidence as denial of that evidence, an explanation for most of the differences as a justification for all of the differences, etc. You keep doing this. So your questions to me are often based on a warped interpretation of my opinions even though you have little data to base that interpretation on. Hell, I could even make a parallel between your behaviour and gender discrimination.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:53 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I do in-home sales of home improvements (windows, doors, roofs, etc... ) for a living. I can assure you that it behooves a salesman to direct most of his attentions to the woman of the house (at least initially). Most training for sales will teach this as gospel. It is believed by most sales professionals that far more emotion goes in to a purchase than does logic. Even the "engineer" type of customer (it is believed) is motivated to buy by leveraging his/her feeling that he/she has done the most thorough examination of the options available.
Do you realize how sexist this sounds?

You are claiming the male in the house doesn't make emotionally motivated decisions. I agree a lot of purchasing decisions have an emotional component. One need only look at successful ad campaigns to find appeals to emotions. But claiming women make more emotional decisions than males is pure bull ****.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:54 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Hell, I could even make a parallel between your behaviour and your gender discrimination.
What the hell, Argumemnon? That's so totally sexist!
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:56 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you realize how sexist this sounds?
There's really no way to win except not to play.
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Old 28th September 2017, 09:56 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I also wonder if you set aside athletic scholarships, do the numbers reach (closer to) parity? Which is not to say that means there isn't a problem, but that it's a much narrower problem (athletic scholarship inequity) which is itself driven by a different cultural bias (popularity of men's sports compared to women's) that enables the problem to exist at all (national television revenues creating a huge disparity in money available for scholarships).
Your premise (that men get more athletic scholarship dollars than women) is incorrect. Ever heard of Title IX?

Quote:
Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play;
Scholarships: Title IX requires that female and male student-athletes receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and
Other benefits: Title IX requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a) equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k) recruitment of student-athletes.
Schools are required to provide the same scholarship dollars per female student-athlete as they do per male student-athlete. So, no, there is no athletic scholarship inequity. If anything, the male athletes (especially from the big revenue sports like basketball and football) are subsidizing the women.
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Old 28th September 2017, 10:06 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you realize how sexist this sounds?

You are claiming the male in the house doesn't make emotionally motivated decisions. I agree a lot of purchasing decisions have an emotional component. One need only look at successful ad campaigns to find appeals to emotions. But claiming women make more emotional decisions than males is pure bull ****.
Your own emotions are clouding your interpretation. Probably because you're a woman.

No, but seriously, you're tying together two statements which don't have to be tied together that way. First off, the statement that purchasing decisions are largely emotional doesn't actually reference gender. So it's perfectly compatible with being equally true of both genders. So then why focus on the woman? Let's assume that doing so works. Why would it work? Well, we don't need women to be more emotional than men. It suffices for them to simply care more about furniture than men. Is it sexist to say that women care more about furniture than men? I don't see why. Is it true that women care more about furniture than men? My limited sample of immediate friends and family supports this, but I'm open to more rigorous statistics demonstrating otherwise. And if it's true that women care more about furniture than men, then the strategy of salespeople targeting the woman make sense. And it would make sense even if men were more emotional than women.
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Old 28th September 2017, 10:09 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
When was I not? The issue here is that you interpreted a request for evidence as denial of that evidence, an explanation for most of the differences as a justification for all of the differences, etc. You keep doing this. So your questions to me are often based on a warped interpretation of my opinions even though you have little data to base that interpretation on. Hell, I could even make a parallel between your behaviour and gender discrimination.
You are incorrect. I interpret your denial of evidence as denial of evidence. And I interpret your dismissal of any evidence or support for things NOT explained by your premise as a rejection that it exists or is harmful.

The premise I'm starting from is that there is a social effect that allows for greater opportunities for men when compared to women. In particular, the ones of interested are the opportunities that allow for financial independence and success for a person. The opportunities are not evenly accessible based on gender.

I acknowledge that biology is a partial explanation for the difference in outcomes, but that it is not a reasonable justification for the difference in opportunities.

In your prior post, you select an example of from the perspective of a man. We can talk about how society is unfair to men all you want to... but it doesn't accomplish much. It obscures a systemic issue that limits agency for women in aggregate as compared to men. Sure, there may be some situations where men are disadvantages, as in the case of child custody, caregiving, etc. You might have noted that I actually did give specific examples of how that lack of agency is a problem for men.

If all you focus on are the examples where it's a problem for men, you create a false equivalency. It gives the impression that you think that the limitations for men are equivalent to the limitations for women. It gives the impression that you believe that women have just as much opportunity and agency in general as men do. In short, it leaves us in a position where all of your arguments are framed as a rejection of the premise that in general and in aggregate men have more privileges than women do.

I assume this is not the impression you want to give. If that assumption is correct, can we please discuss those disparities?
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Old 28th September 2017, 10:22 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
In your prior post, you select an example of from the perspective of a man. We can talk about how society is unfair to men all you want to...
FFS Cat, I chose the example simply to show that individuals can be affected by these social pressures. Stop adding content to my posts. This is the last time that I ask.

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I assume this is not the impression you want to give.
Not only is it not the impression that I want to give, that is not even included in what I said. It is entirely an invention of yours. Your entire post if you arguing with a phantom of your own making.
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Old 28th September 2017, 10:27 AM   #139
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I really wish you'd let these minuscule and unimportant bits pass and actually respond to the points I've made:

It obscures a systemic issue that limits agency for women in aggregate as compared to men.

It gives the impression that you think that the limitations for men are equivalent to the limitations for women.
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Old 28th September 2017, 10:48 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I really wish you'd let these minuscule and unimportant bits pass and actually respond to the points I've made:

It obscures a systemic issue that limits agency for women in aggregate as compared to men.

It gives the impression that you think that the limitations for men are equivalent to the limitations for women.
How exactly do you establish how much women's and men's agency is limited by social expectations? Are there units for such a measurement?
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Old 28th September 2017, 10:49 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I really wish you'd let these minuscule and unimportant bits pass and actually respond to the points I've made:

It obscures a systemic issue that limits agency for women in aggregate as compared to men.

It gives the impression that you think that the limitations for men are equivalent to the limitations for women.
Well, isn't that special! I tell you that these points are based on a reading of my post that is completely unjustified and unfair, and you respond by calling that "minuscule and unimportant bits" and then request than I answer those same points that are based on a lie!

Cat, those points are irrelevant to what I said. I could've picked a woman or a midget or a hindu or Christian or ginger or gay man as an example and it would change nothing of my central point, which was simply that some social pressures are expected, and that they are not necessarily bad within a certain set of parameters.

But since you insist of misrepresenting me, how about you carry on the rest of the conversation on your own?
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Old 28th September 2017, 10:59 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, isn't that special! I tell you that these points are based on a reading of my post that is completely unjustified and unfair, and you respond by calling that "minuscule and unimportant bits" and then request than I answer those same points that are based on a lie!
What part of my statements are based on a lie?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Cat, those points are irrelevant to what I said. I could've picked a woman or a midget or a hindu or Christian or ginger or gay man as an example and it would change nothing of my central point, which was simply that some social pressures are expected, and that they are not necessarily bad within a certain set of parameters.
Great! We already passed that. Sure, *some* are expected and *some* are not necessarily bad.

Now, can we talk about the ones that AREN'T expected and that ARE bad?
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Old 28th September 2017, 12:22 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
So don't even try to give me some song and dance about "biological differences". What's next, I should read The Bell Curve?
It'd probably be quicker to just listen to the Sam Harris podcast where he has the author on.
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Old 29th September 2017, 11:59 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Now, can we talk about the ones that AREN'T expected and that ARE bad?
I'd love to. I even have some suggested questions for where to start.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How exactly do you establish how much women's and men's agency is limited by social expectations? Are there units for such a measurement?
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Old 29th September 2017, 12:04 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
It'd probably be quicker to just listen to the Sam Harris podcast where he has the author on.
Have you noticed how it's heretical to even discuss sexual dimorphism in humans as a cause of observations?
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Old 29th September 2017, 12:21 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Have you noticed how it's heretical to even discuss sexual dimorphism in humans as a cause of observations?
Not if your hypothesis is sufficiently absurd.
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Old 29th September 2017, 03:21 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you realize how sexist this sounds?

You are claiming the male in the house doesn't make emotionally motivated decisions. I agree a lot of purchasing decisions have an emotional component. One need only look at successful ad campaigns to find appeals to emotions. But claiming women make more emotional decisions than males is pure bull ****.
Yet it is effective.

In a situation wherein there are two decision makers present, and they are of the commonest sexual orientation, appealing to the female (generally, as I included in my initial post regarding this. After one gets a better feel for the household dynamic the strategy must sometimes be modified) on an emotional level is frequently the most direct path to a sale.
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Old 29th September 2017, 05:36 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not if your hypothesis is sufficiently absurd.
There are some things so dumb only a professor could believe them. For one thing, understanding the physics of projectile motion does not require visualizing it. It requires a bunch of equations. Yes, I imagine that boys would have a much easier time writing their name in the snow; the notion that helps them understand that the force of gravity is 9.8 m/s/s is a bit hard to credit.
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Old 29th September 2017, 08:35 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yet it is effective.
For SG, that doesn't seem to matter. Regardless of whether or not it's correct, it's politically incorrect.
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Old 30th September 2017, 05:54 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For SG, that doesn't seem to matter. Regardless of whether or not it's correct, it's politically incorrect.
That is, perhaps, an unfair characterization.
The tactic could certainly be looked at as sexist because it starts with a premise based upon a generalization of the expected dynamic of a household.
That does not mean it is ineffective to start from that presumption, any more than it is ineffective to market dolls and play-kitchens to girls. In a way, it must be very frustrating for someone who seeks greater gender equality to have to face the reality that a majority (or at least a large minority ) of the very group they are hoping to enable participate in the status-quo regularly and even enthusiastically.

When my first granddaughter arrived, and had her first Few Christmases, it was my SO, and my daughter-in-law, who selected gifts for her that were heavily skewed to traditional girls playthings. My SO is a paralegal, my Daughter-in-Law a CPA. Both are strong successful women whom one crosses at his own peril, yet they participate in the stereotypes freely. Personally, I wanted to get my Granddaughter Legos, balls, and Nerf guns, because I really don't have much fun playing with dolls with her. I always end up making them pretend-fight with each other.
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Old 30th September 2017, 06:23 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Interpret it however you like. I wanted a clean category grouping, but I didn't want to deal with the whole question of whether gender is binary or not. So I leave it to the voter to pick whatever works best for them in their view of themselves.
Wow. That is a *lot* of privilege to pack into such a small post.

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Old 30th September 2017, 04:28 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Have you noticed how it's heretical to even discuss sexual dimorphism in humans as a cause of observations?
Sexual dimorhpism comes nowhere near close to explaining the observations though, and in other threads you ran away from examining that in regards to gender, so why the change of heart?
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Old 30th September 2017, 04:30 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This "misuse" is the primary use for the term. Case in point:
Nope. Your statement remains false, even if you find dozens of examples of misuse of a term, your misuse of it doesn't become valid.
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Old 30th September 2017, 05:34 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Sexual dimorhpism comes nowhere near close to explaining the observations though
So people keep claiming, without supporting the claim.

Quote:
and in other threads you ran away from examining that in regards to gender, so why the change of heart?
Ran away? When do I ever "run away" in any thread, ever? And how does that characterisation sound, you think? Do you think it sounds like an argument?

No one's been able to say how much disparity we should observe given biological differences, so no one can say that the disparities are too great. That's a fundamental step that no one has taken. Ergo it is impossible to move further.
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Old 30th September 2017, 05:52 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Nope. Your statement remains false, even if you find dozens of examples of misuse of a term, your misuse of it doesn't become valid.
When a particular usage becomes the standard usage, it thereby becomes the correct usage. That's the way language works. You may not like it, but that doesn't matter.
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Old 30th September 2017, 06:13 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Have you noticed how it's heretical to even discuss sexual dimorphism in humans as a cause of observations?
No, it's not!

Men have poor impulse control.
Women are excellent communicators.

See?
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Old 30th September 2017, 06:28 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So people keep claiming, without supporting the claim.
That's not how it works and you know it. The idea that sexual dimorphism explains it is a positive claim, so it's your burden to support it.

Quote:
Ran away? When do I ever "run away" in any thread, ever? And how does that characterisation sound, you think? Do you think it sounds like an argument?
You outright ignored all the elements of sexual dimporphism in transgender people to continue to argue that men aren't really men and women aren't really women. I call that 'running away from sexual dimorphism', and yes, that's an argument. If you acknowledge that sexual dimorphism can explain some observations, you can't just abandon that when it doesn't suit your whims.

You move the claim from 'ran away from a thread', when no that's not what I argued because you will continue to post in a thread after all reason not to.

Quote:
No one's been able to say how much disparity we should observe given biological differences, so no one can say that the disparities are too great. That's a fundamental step that no one has taken. Ergo it is impossible to move further.
This is one of those arguments that never ceases to amuse me. I don't know how many guys it would take to kick my ass, therefore I can't say that five would do it.

How about we eliminate the other variables so we can find out reliably, right? Let's test your hypothesis. Wait, that would entail addressing the stuff other people want addressed first. Oh well, guess we'll 'never know'.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When a particular usage becomes the standard usage, it thereby becomes the correct usage. That's the way language works. You may not like it, but that doesn't matter.
A. Not always and B. irregardless, you haven't shown that.
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Old 30th September 2017, 07:31 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When a particular usage becomes the standard usage, it thereby becomes the correct usage. That's the way language works. You may not like it, but that doesn't matter.
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
A. Not always and B. irregardless, you haven't shown that.
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Old 30th September 2017, 07:32 PM   #159
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Old 1st October 2017, 12:49 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post

How about we eliminate the other variables so we can find out reliably, right? Let's test your hypothesis. Wait, that would entail addressing the stuff other people want addressed first. Oh well, guess we'll 'never know'.
Just as an observer of this discussion, you seem to be doing everything to avoid addressing his variables

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