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Tags gun control issues , Las Vegas incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:49 AM   #361
Sabrina
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Or someone could lie for them.

How does one verify an official ISIS statement?
Generally speaking, if it's been put out by Amaq, their "news agency", you can pretty much assume it to be ISIS' "official", such as it is, statement.

ETA: Which is not to say Amaq is exactly truthful; I'd put them about on the level of the Onion, only without the satire.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:50 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The issue of insanity defense is terribly complicated...
There are also differing definitions of insanity. The medical and legal definitions are very different. The legal definition is
Quote:
The definition of legally insane is a legal determination, not a psychological one. However, a psychological analysis plays into this. At times, a person may be considered psychotic but still not meet the legal definition of being insane...Most states use what is called the M’Naghten test to determine if someone is legally insane. It is a cognitive test that assesses the thought processes and perceptions that the defendant had at the time that he or she committed the crime. According to this test, a person is considered legally insane if, at the time of the offense, he or she suffered from a defect of reason from a disease of the mind. Due to this mental disease, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was illegal or wrong.
Link
I have seen this issue discussed a number of times. Prosecutors have brought up a pretty interesting factor as to why getting a not guilty by reason of insanity finding can be tough to do. That if the perp tried to escape or conceal what they had done, regardless of what a psych evaluation finds, that pretty much proves they knew what they were doing was wrong at the time. They can be medically insane but if they tried to escape or, at first, deny they did X, that pretty much proves they knew it was wrong.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:50 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
What's YOUR argument? That mental illness means we should all hang our heads and feel terribly, horribly sorry for the ******* that just murdered the equivalent of an entire football team?


I've made my argument. You said we shouldn't humanise the shooter because they too often are people looking for glory. Well, how about when they don't? Should we assume that they do even if a lot of them suffer from mental disorders? And I don't mean mental disorders as "I felt so mad, I lost it!" I mean "Oops, I forgot to take my medication and I started seeing demons so I shot 'em!"
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:51 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Hillary Clinton had this to say:



It would have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why are people trying to tie this event to suppressors?
Because it is a political issue of the moment. Also it is a case of the shooter's location being hard to determine and that delaying effective response. I am not sure if a silencer would help or hinder in that, but this does seem to be one of the rare instances were the shooter shot for a prolonged period without being located.

I don't know if a silencer would have made it easier or more difficult to locate him but that is relevant in this case.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:51 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
It would have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why are people trying to tie this event to suppressors?
She uses events like this to push her political agenda. Doesn't have to tell the truth, just make crap up. It works better when she's being vague.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I don't know if a silencer would have made it easier or more difficult to locate him but that is relevant in this case.
As far as I know the distance shot was a bit over 100 yards. The dominant noise is from the bullet flight, a sonic boom. While the muzzle blast will be lower, it will still be an obvious gunshot. For all we know, he might have been using a silencer on one or more of his rifles.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:52 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Hillary Clinton had this to say:



It would have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why are people trying to tie this event to suppressors?
While she is wrong about the fact, the logic of tying things together seems reasonable.


Efforts are underway to change X.
Changing X would have made Y worse.
Y being worse is a reason to not change X.

If she is mistaken about suppressors, the reason she would tie it to the shooting seems clear.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:53 AM   #367
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:53 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
There are also differing definitions of insanity. The medical and legal definitions are very different. The legal definition is


I have seen this issue discussed a number of times. Prosecutors have brought up a pretty interesting factor as to why getting a not guilty by reason of insanity finding can be tough to do. That if the perp tried to escape or conceal what they had done, regardless of what a psych evaluation finds, that pretty much proves they knew what they were doing was wrong at the time. They can be medically insane but if they tried to escape or, at first, deny they did X, that pretty much proves they knew it was wrong.
Also I don't know how often someone is found not competent to stand trial which avoids the whole issue of a defense.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:55 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Weapon count is up to 19.
Any models yet to know what to run out and buy?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:55 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Hillary Clinton had this to say:



It would have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why are people trying to tie this event to suppressors?
It's a talking point.

A suppressor is a muffler, no different in it's engineering than the muffler that must be installed on your automobile by state law in all 50 states.

If firearms suppressors were in general use there would be far less disruption from the noise associated with the operation of firing ranges, but the noise of a firearm somehow is a issue of noise pollution separate from any other question involving loud noises created by mechanical devices.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:56 AM   #371
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Mental illness is not even a consideration at this point. If it is later shown (was he in therapy? did he have a psychiatrist/ologist?) he was mentally ill, maybe we can have a discussion about improving care for the mentally ill as a prevention tactic.

In any case, mental illness may be a good explanation for what happened here but it isn't really a helpful excuse. "Oh, don't blame the shooter, he was mentally ill and didn't know what he was doing!" In my mind, it doesn't matter; this monster was responsible for a horrific act of terror and loss of life.

On another note, I go to Vegas frequently. I've been at these outdoor concerts -one at the same venue. I was on the Strip last NYE watching the fireworks and we're supposed to go again this year. Now, I don't know . . . it's very hard for me not to think of the the Strip as a very well designed kill box now. I realize this is probably an exaggeration but it's a narrow canyon surrounded by sniper's nests. It's just chilling and I can't imagine what it would have been like to be there. The videos are scary enough. This kind of thing just puts ideas in the wrong people's heads. The more rational side of me thinks: OK, the Strip has been around for decades and nothing like this has ever happened so it's not likely to happen again. But it's just too easy . . .
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:57 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Any models yet to know what to run out and buy?
i can offer some 100% bulletproof T-Shirts.
Money back guaranteed if you are killed wearing one.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:58 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Any models yet to know what to run out and buy?
Go after the usual suspects of course. After the Navy Yard shooter used his pump shotgun to kill people, Feinstein was calling for another ban on semi-auto rifles.

Last edited by Ranb; 2nd October 2017 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:58 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Mental illness is not even a consideration at this point. If it is later shown (was he in therapy? did he have a psychiatrist/ologist?) he was mentally ill, maybe we can have a discussion about improving care for the mentally ill as a prevention tactic.

In any case, mental illness may be a good explanation for what happened here but it isn't really a helpful excuse. "Oh, don't blame the shooter, he was mentally ill and didn't know what he was doing!" In my mind, it doesn't matter; this monster was responsible for a horrific act of terror and loss of life.
The discussion wasn't about blame, but about "humanising" him.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:58 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
...It would have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why are people trying to tie this event to suppressors?
Why wouldn't a silencer have made a difference? Most of the people I saw interviewed, said it was the sound of shots that first alerted them. The singer who ran off stage, he was reacting to the sound of gunfire. It seems to me it did make a difference.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:59 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
i can offer some 100% bulletproof T-Shirts.
Money back guaranteed if you are killed wearing one.
No the goal is to play up the benefit for american manufacturers in a sector that has lagged in sales since last november.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:59 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because it is a political issue of the moment. Also it is a case of the shooter's location being hard to determine and that delaying effective response. I am not sure if a silencer would help or hinder in that, but this does seem to be one of the rare instances were the shooter shot for a prolonged period without being located.

I don't know if a silencer would have made it easier or more difficult to locate him but that is relevant in this case.
The broken windows make your point moot.

Even the best can available will not fully "silence" rifle caliber firearms, especially after a 30 round magazine is fired through it. An AR rifle w/ a suppressor isn't very quiet at all if you run 30 rounds through it on full-auto.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:59 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Why wouldn't a silencer have made a difference? Most of the people I saw interviewed, said it was the sound of shots that first alerted them. The singer who ran off stage, he was reacting to the sound of gunfire. It seems to me it did make a difference.
As someone pointed out already, at that range it's the sonic boom of the bullet that made the noises heard, and a suppressor wouldn't change that.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:03 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
As someone pointed out already, at that range it's the sonic boom of the bullet that made the noises heard, and a suppressor wouldn't change that.
And apparently they can never do enough to make a difference in hearing and identifying gun fire anyway. So given how useless they are I am not sure why people want to get them deregulated to much.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:04 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Why wouldn't a silencer have made a difference? Most of the people I saw interviewed, said it was the sound of shots that first alerted them. The singer who ran off stage, he was reacting to the sound of gunfire. It seems to me it did make a difference.
SUPPRESSORS DON'T WORK LIKE THEY DO IN MOVIES.

A suppressor would have done jack squat to muffle the sound from the bullets' cracking the sound barrier.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:05 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Why wouldn't a silencer have made a difference? Most of the people I saw interviewed, said it was the sound of shots that first alerted them. The singer who ran off stage, he was reacting to the sound of gunfire. It seems to me it did make a difference.
There would of course be a difference in the amount of muzzle blast noise with a silencer in place. A 135 decibel noise at 100 yards is still plainly audible; just not as obvious as an unsuppressed rifle at 165 decibels. The whip cracking like sound of the bullet's sonic boom is not affect by use of a silencer. As far as I know this would be the dominant noise from the target's standpoint whether or not a silencer was used by the shooter.

Based on my limited experience with shooting suppressed and unsuppressed rifles and observing them from the shooter's position and a protected down range position, a silencer is not going to change what is heard downrange very much when a rifle with high velocity ammo is used.

Opinions will vary of course.

ETA; Here is a video showing some suppressed rifles. The shooting demo starts at the 6 minute point.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDiLl6mPsuw

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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:05 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Why wouldn't a silencer have made a difference? Most of the people I saw interviewed, said it was the sound of shots that first alerted them. The singer who ran off stage, he was reacting to the sound of gunfire. It seems to me it did make a difference.
Because it's really just a suppressor, not a silencer. The muzzle blast is still loud, as is the sonic "crack" of the bullet.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:06 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Mental illness is not even a consideration at this point. If it is later shown (was he in therapy? did he have a psychiatrist/ologist?) he was mentally ill, maybe we can have a discussion about improving care for the mentally ill as a prevention tactic.

In any case, mental illness may be a good explanation for what happened here but it isn't really a helpful excuse. "Oh, don't blame the shooter, he was mentally ill and didn't know what he was doing!" In my mind, it doesn't matter; this monster was responsible for a horrific act of terror and loss of life.

On another note, I go to Vegas frequently. I've been at these outdoor concerts -one at the same venue. I was on the Strip last NYE watching the fireworks and we're supposed to go again this year. Now, I don't know . . . it's very hard for me not to think of the the Strip as a very well designed kill box now. I realize this is probably an exaggeration but it's a narrow canyon surrounded by sniper's nests. It's just chilling and I can't imagine what it would have been like to be there. The videos are scary enough. This kind of thing just puts ideas in the wrong people's heads. The more rational side of me thinks: OK, the Strip has been around for decades and nothing like this has ever happened so it's not likely to happen again. But it's just too easy . . .
Part of the history of Vegas is that for the time LCN had a controlling interest in the operation of business and politics crime was low overall in Vegas.

The boys knew crime was bad for business, and rather than worrying about being arrested bad actors avoided Vegas because the folks really enforcing the law had no controlling legal statutes or sentencing guidlines along with a -0- tolerance policy.

Those days are long gone, and even if they were this shooter wouldn't be worrying about the consequences.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:07 AM   #384
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Just because I didn;t see anyone post about it .. sub-sonic ammo for all popular calibers is widely available.

I guess it'd be reasonable to think if he HAD OF used a silencer he would also have stocked up on sub-sonic ammo.

But I don't think it would have made much difference either way ... even with the noisy gun ... hundreds people were still lying down (possibly making an easier target, compared to standing up from his angle of attack) after he fired over 200 shots.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:09 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And apparently they can never do enough to make a difference in hearing and identifying gun fire anyway. So given how useless they are I am not sure why people want to get them deregulated to much.
It's a coin toss whether my hearing was killed more by The Who in 1968 at The Fillmore or years of time on the live fire line, but I am in favor of suppressor use in practice, especially indoors.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:10 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Pay attention. I've paraphrased his brother who feels it's totally out of character for him to have had those weapons.
It's no doubt a conspiracy by the Jews. Trust me on this.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:10 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Go after the usual suspects of course. After the Navy Yard shooter used his pump shotgun to kill people, Feinstein was calling for another ban on semi-auto rifles.
I know Diane Feinstein is the favorite whipping 'boy' of those on the right but Feinstein said:
Quote:
“Congress must stop shirking its responsibility and resume a thoughtful debate on gun violence in this country. We must do more to stop this endless loss of life.” Link
She was mostly talking about enhanced background checks. The Nay Yard shooter had been involved in several incidents involving guns but this seemed to raise no red flags.
Quote:
In 2010, he was arrested in Fort Worth for discharging a weapon within city limits. Alexis was also arrested in 2004 in Seattle, Washington, for malicious mischief, after shooting out the tires of another man's vehicle in what he later described as the result of an anger-fueled "blackout";and in 2008 in DeKalb County, Georgia, for disorderly conduct. None of Alexis' arrests led to prosecution. Wiki Link
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:12 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Just because I didn;t see anyone post about it .. sub-sonic ammo for all popular calibers is widely available.

I guess it'd be reasonable to think if he HAD OF used a silencer he would also have stocked up on sub-sonic ammo.

But I don't think it would have made much difference either way ... even with the noisy gun ... hundreds people were still lying down (possibly making an easier target, compared to standing up from his angle of attack) after he fired over 200 shots.
Then you run into the problems with subsonic ammo at long range, though. Lot of bullet drop and low energy on arrival.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:15 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Then you run into the problems with subsonic ammo at long range, though. Lot of bullet drop and low energy on arrival.
Yes ... that ties in with the idea less people may have been killed if a silencer (and sub-sonic ammo) was used.

I'm no expert on ballistics, but there is some REDUCTION in bullet drop when firing from a vantage point that is higher in altitude than the target.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:16 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I know Diane Feinstein is the favorite whipping 'boy' of those on the right but Feinstein said:
She is the favorite whipping boy of people who own guns because she sticks her ass out for a paddling when she says stuff like this from your link;
Quote:
The California Democrat said the type of guns allegedly used by the shooter, including an AR-15, were evidence that Congress needs to do more.
Now maybe the reporter misquoted her, but it seems that she wanted to ban AR-15's after a man used a pump shotgun to murder people.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:18 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Yes ... that ties in with the idea less people may have been killed if a silencer (and sub-sonic ammo) was used.

I'm no expert on ballistics, but there is some REDUCTION in bullet drop when firing from a vantage point that is higher in altitude than the target.
Yes, but the variations for shooting uphill or downhill are not all that much.

You can also reduce regular ammo to subsonic velocities by drilling a few holes in the barrel up near the chamber to let some gas escape early, such as the HK MP5SD and variants.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:19 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Yes ... that ties in with the idea less people may have been killed if a silencer (and sub-sonic ammo) was used.

I'm no expert on ballistics, but there is some REDUCTION in bullet drop when firing from a vantage point that is higher in altitude than the target.
This shooter was dealing in quantity, not quality. I seriously doubt he was concentrating on his front sight and trigger squeeze.

In the videos shown so far the shooter was doing cyclic rate mag dumps.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:20 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I know Diane Feinstein is the favorite whipping 'boy' of those on the right but Feinstein said:


She was mostly talking about enhanced background checks. The Nay Yard shooter had been involved in several incidents involving guns but this seemed to raise no red flags.
If he was not prosecuted, then there was no legal record of an offense.

Technically, there was no offense.

Without a legal record of an actual offense, you probably aren't going to be able to take away anyone's right to anything.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:21 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Just because I didn;t see anyone post about it .. sub-sonic ammo for all popular calibers is widely available.

I guess it'd be reasonable to think if he HAD OF used a silencer he would also have stocked up on sub-sonic ammo.
I think if he had used a 22 or 30 caliber rifle equipped with a silencer and used subsonic ammo, he might have killed far fewer people, but wounded more. With the lower noise level (from the much lower powder charge) and the lack of sonic booms from the subsonic bullet speeds, the shooter might have been able to spend more time shooting before his location was known.

As far as I know he was simply spraying ammo into the crowd, the lower powered ammo would probably have caused fewer deaths.

From what I know, it appears he was doing mag dumps, not at all concerned about getting away with his crime. Probably just wanted to shoot as many rounds into the crowd as possible. A semi-auto or machinegun chambered in subsonic 30 or 338 caliber with attached silencers would have been the way to go if he wanted to kill and get away with it.

Last edited by Ranb; 2nd October 2017 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:22 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
This shooter was dealing in quantity, not quality. I seriously doubt he was concentrating on his front sight and trigger squeeze.

In the videos shown so far the shooter was doing cyclic rate mag dumps.
Good point ... the discussion about bullet drop and the silencer or not seems just theoretical ... it really would make or have made no difference.

In a normal crowd he would have hit much less people ... concerts goers often are packed like sardines in the audience.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:23 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump was downright presidential just now!
Better late than never.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:23 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If he was not prosecuted, then there was no legal record of an offense.

Technically, there was no offense.

Without a legal record of an actual offense, you probably aren't going to be able to take away anyone's right to anything.
There's already a work around.

The No-Fly List.

There's been a bunch of press on why the N.R.A. opposes the restriction of 2nd Amendment rights based on inclusion on the NFL, most of it critical.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:29 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If he was not prosecuted, then there was no legal record of an offense.
Blatantly untrue, being arrested would create a record even if no charges where filed.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:29 AM   #399
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I'm wondering whether the question of "terrorist vs. random lunatic" is, or ever was, all that important. So the terrorists and the random lunatics don't share the same religious or political ends, and do not directly cooperate with one another. They still learn from one another and they contribute to one anothers' cumulative effects on society. Call it the terrorist-lunatic synergy. When the story breaks everyone wants to know and many are eager to prematurely speculate, but does it matter?

I have an extensive mental catalog of, "if a group of suicide terrorists really wanted to kill a lot of people, they'd do X." I don't discuss those X's, because why risk the product of my creative imagination reaching the wrong brains and being used to hurt people? But the random lunatics of the world have been doing their share of scouting the territory, getting new X's out there one by one. Then we have to either accept newly immanentized risks (in this case, rifle attacks from high-rise hotels overlooking crowded venues) or new insults and inconveniences to avoid them (baggage searches on hotel check-ins, perhaps, or hotel rooms made unavailable when they're most needed by the people who travelled there for the event, or police snipers on rooftops at every public festival).

They all think they have a cause, and they all want that known. Endless analysis of motives, whether it's uninformed speculation based on stereotypes, or expert assessments based on all the evidence and all the latest geopolitical and psychological knowledge, all plays into their hands equally. Just call them all random lunatics and leave it at that.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 10:33 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Blatantly untrue, being arrested would create a record even if no charges where filed.
You misunderstand.

If charges were not filed and an individual convicted it can not be used as a dis-qualifying act for any legal purpose.
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