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Tags gun control issues , Las Vegas incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:03 AM   #321
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
The first burst of fire I count exactly 100 rounds .. in (plus or minus a half second) 9 seconds. (by running the video at 1/4 speed)

That'd be a standard drum magazine as someone suggested and a rate of fire roughly 600 to 700 RPS ... in line for an AR15 / M16 but still well within Ak's published rates
I hope you mean Rounds Per Minute and not Rounds Per Second
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:04 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Brother: No gun guy, no military background, how did he get those weapons?
Same brother that apparently lives across the country and never talks to him?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:04 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And if they did so what? It isn't like the staff would automatically know the guns were illegal.
Or put them with a blanket wrapped around them in a duffle bag with a zipper lock on it while you're out ... it's very rare for staff to cut off locks and go through your stuff
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:05 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I hope you mean Rounds Per Minute and not Rounds Per Second
Yes of course Thank you let me edit that .. sorry I'll spell out
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:06 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And some because of mental illness. Should we make them subhuman as well?
We arrest them just the same. Or shoot them just the same. We prosecute them the same, and we execute them the same.

If they've committed a mass murder, they've forfeited the right to choose the consequences.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:08 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No. I just could not imagine heaving up to ten guns plus a lot of ammo into a hotel. I would struggle to carry that lot.

Now I know he had been in for four days, I see how he could get that lots in without raising any suspicion.

The issue is no one from the hotel going into his room for 4 days.
If his stuff had been in cases and boxes, no one would have known what it was. And even if anybody had seen it and inquired, he could have said he was a dealer in town for a gun show, and nobody would have blinked. Las Vegas hotel maids see weirder stuff every day.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:10 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
We arrest them just the same. Or shoot them just the same. We prosecute them the same, and we execute them the same.

If they've committed a mass murder, they've forfeited the right to choose the consequences.
Somebody murders 58 people out of the clear blue, I don't gas what their major malfunction is.

Exactly.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:11 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
58 killed and 515 injured.

Staggering.
It's almost unimaginable.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:13 AM   #329
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So I worked 3rd video from this page: https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=56a_1506926722

First there is 43 shots fired, then 5, then 33 .. average fire rate for bursts are: 11.2, 11.6 and 12.7 shots per second, 672, 696, 762 shots per minute. Seeing it on the time line it's not that much regular after all. But then it's recorded on receiving end, and it's mainly bullet sonic cracks (imho), so it would be affected by variability of bullet speed.

Anyway .. that's seems kinda slow. Wiki states M-16 is rated 700-900 per minute, and 600 for AK-47. But that's for army issued variants. Firerate would be affected greatly by components used.
What's interesting is that those are really long bursts .. but then 50 round magazines are not that uncommon.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:13 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
We arrest them just the same. Or shoot them just the same. We prosecute them the same, and we execute them the same.

If they've committed a mass murder, they've forfeited the right to choose the consequences.
You're not answering the question, though. Should we not wait until we know motive or illness before we dehumanise this guy?

I mean, yeah, if he wasn't sick in the head, he was a monster, but let's wait for more data, yes?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:13 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Somebody murders 58 people out of the clear blue, I don't gas what their major malfunction is.

Exactly.
**** 'em.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:14 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Somebody murders 58 people out of the clear blue, I don't gas what their major malfunction is.

Exactly.
Just make sure you get the right guy, and identify everybody who might have helped him.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:15 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I estimated 800-2000 feet based on the distance from the hotel to the lot the concert was in. I'll have to say the range is at the low end of my estimate based on the pic in your link.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:17 AM   #334
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I wonder if some people were hit by ricochet. From that angle a bullet might glance off pavement. Is the audience on a paved or solid surface?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:20 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I agree. I think too many of these type of events are motivated by the desire for personal "fame" and "glory".

If we take that away, it won't stop 'em all, but may prevent at least one.
Yes, that and the media's heavy emphasis on 'the death toll', and 'the worse gun massacre ever in the USA'. It simply encourages future suicidal nutters to try to get into the record books trying to surpass this figure.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:22 AM   #336
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Gun control does not (and cannot) guarantee we'd avert one of those tragedies, but to the extent you stop a Paddock, you're going to ruin weekends for MILLIONS of gun owners. Will people focus on that? No, just this one weekend in little Las Vegas.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:23 AM   #337
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Stampede may also have been responsible for a number of casualties.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:25 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I estimated 800-2000 feet based on the distance from the hotel to the lot the concert was in. I'll have to say the range is at the low end of my estimate based on the pic in your link.
Another consideration on the distance is whether the "32nd" floor is as high as one would expect. I know they avoid certain floors, at least. I remember staying there once and counting fewer floors from the pool than the floor we were staying in. But I may have been drinking.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:25 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
So I worked 3rd video from this page: https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=56a_1506926722

First there is 43 shots fired, then 5, then 33 .. average fire rate for bursts are: 11.2, 11.6 and 12.7 shots per second, 672, 696, 762 shots per minute. Seeing it on the time line it's not that much regular after all. But then it's recorded on receiving end, and it's mainly bullet sonic cracks (imho), so it would be affected by variability of bullet speed.

Anyway .. that's seems kinda slow. Wiki states M-16 is rated 700-900 per minute, and 600 for AK-47. But that's for army issued variants. Firerate would be affected greatly by components used.

What's interesting is that those are really long bursts .. but then 50 round magazines are not that uncommon.
Read my post up thread - those numbers are based on the basic mechanical cyclic rate of the firearm, and not an actual real world tested cyclic rate. If a weapon is fired at the mechanically possible cyclic rate it won't last very long before it will self destruct - lots of videos on you tube show various AK's and AR's fired at cyclic rate to failure - It wouldn't necessarily concern one of these nutjobs but IRL it's an absolute consideration for legit end users.

There are all sorts of feeding devices that you can spend money on, but outside of the various former combloc drum mags for AK platform rifles the over 30 round capacity feeding devices are not generally reliable enough for service use, although various criminal shooters have used them, usually unsuccessfully.

If this shooter was using an AR platform, it's entirely possible that they may have prepared by having a hundred or more loaded standard 30 round mags ready to go and went through those ready mags before he called it a night.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:27 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I wonder if some people were hit by ricochet. From that angle a bullet might glance off pavement. Is the audience on a paved or solid surface?
CNN had a Las Vegas law enforcement person report there were shrapnel injuries.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:27 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Gun control does not (and cannot) guarantee we'd avert one of those tragedies, but to the extent you stop a Paddock, you're going to ruin weekends for MILLIONS of gun owners. Will people focus on that? No, just this one weekend in little Las Vegas.
Well I doubt anyone of these millions gun owners will actually die because they can't plank. But then this guy clearly used guns which are already illegal. Magazine sizes looks like easy target .. but then those are easy to get around, and there are already tons of them in the wild.
Focus should be on how he got them ..
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:28 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Stranger things have happened. But on the flip side, it's not like ISIS is above lying about this sort of thing. Time will tell.

Or someone could lie for them.

How does one verify an official ISIS statement?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:28 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Alphaba View Post
Stampede may also have been responsible for a number of casualties.
They haven't addressed that yet, but completely reasonable assumption.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:29 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're not answering the question, though. Should we not wait until we know motive or illness before we dehumanise this guy?

I mean, yeah, if he wasn't sick in the head, he was a monster, but let's wait for more data, yes?
If you want to argue we should treat those with mental illness differently, I will be persuadable in many cases.

But the time for that is BEFORE mass murder. If we want to go there, we need better diagnostics, better health care, better prevention techniques.

After, they're gone -either literally or figuratively, and IMO the next step is damage control; which includes preventing anyone else from taking a cue for gaining the attention and social image they perceive comes from these acts.

It wouldn't take much: just reverse the reporting:

"Yeah...ol' Stubby thought he had a good plan, but like everything else in his life that night, it fizzled. There were 20,000 people at that concert, and he wasn't able to kill even 60. There are a few more injured, and a lot of carpets to be cleaned, but everyone else in Vegas will just enjoy an ordinary day"

or

"Oh, it's terrible news...little Rebecca was a wonderful girl, and the whole world will miss her. She was in college, was active in several sports, and volunteered at the soup kitchen on weekends. The whole world will miss Rebecca."
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:30 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
If you want to argue we should treat those with mental illness differently, I will be persuadable in many cases.

But the time for that is BEFORE mass murder. If we want to go there, we need better diagnostics, better health care, better prevention techniques.

After, they're gone -either literally or figuratively, and IMO the next step is damage control; which includes preventing anyone else from taking a cue for gaining the attention and social image they perceive comes from these acts.
Why? What's your argument, exactly? I don't see how any of that supports your earlier claim.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:33 AM   #346
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The issue of insanity defense is terribly complicated. I think most people feel that someone so mentally impaired or insane as to be completely unable to recognize right from wrong should somehow be treated differently versus someone who kills for money or for revenge. Similarly if the individual sincerely believes that they are shooting reptilian extraterrestrials and saving humanity. Are they fully responsible for the evil of their actions? Are they even competent enough to participate in their own legal defense? Yet I am certain that we would disagree in how to deal with such a person.

The NY Times magazine section yesterday had a detailed article about Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity. The reality is that this plea is only very, very rarely successful. And when it is, the consequences of a successful plea of not guilty by reason of insanity are typically far worse for the accused than if they had simply been found guilty of a standard criminal conviction. There are no hard guidelines for when they are sane enough to be released and they often spend multiple-more years in institutions for the criminally insane than they would have if they had been sent to prison with a defined sentence.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:35 AM   #347
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Prospective mass shooters seem to try to outdo the last record for people killed/injured.

I sincerely hope that future killers realize the futility of trying to top the Las Vegas shooting.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:37 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Can you really be serious with this post?

I never knew that distinction.
"Warmest condolences" is tantamount to "I'm glad you are dead".
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:37 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
If you want to argue we should treat those with mental illness differently,I will be persuadable in many cases.

But the time for that is BEFORE mass murder. If we want to go there, we need better diagnostics, better health care, better prevention techniques.

After, they're gone -either literally or figuratively, and IMO the next step is damage control; which includes preventing anyone else from taking a cue for gaining the attention and social image they perceive comes from these acts.

It wouldn't take much: just reverse the reporting:

"Yeah...ol' Stubby thought he had a good plan, but like everything else in his life that night, it fizzled. There were 20,000 people at that concert, and he wasn't able to kill even 60. There are a few more injured, and a lot of carpets to be cleaned, but everyone else in Vegas will just enjoy an ordinary day"

or

"Oh, it's terrible news...little Rebecca was a wonderful girl, and the whole world will miss her. She was in college, was active in several sports, and volunteered at the soup kitchen on weekends. The whole world will miss Rebecca."
Agree 100%.

The problem is that there are more ratings to be had in focusing on violence and criminal actions than in focusing on grief and loss.

How about focusing on the actions taken by ordinary people in the midst of the incident that saved someone or helped an injured victim? Make their actions something to be emulated?
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:37 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The issue of insanity defense is terribly complicated. I think most people feel that someone so mentally impaired or insane as to be completely unable to recognize right from wrong should somehow be treated differently versus someone who kills for money or for revenge. Similarly if the individual sincerely believes that they are shooting reptilian extraterrestrials and saving humanity. Are they fully responsible for the evil of their actions? Are they even competent enough to participate in their own legal defense? Yet I am certain that we would disagree in how to deal with such a person.

The NY Times magazine section yesterday had a detailed article about Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity. The reality is that this plea is only very, very rarely successful. And when it is, the consequences of a successful plea of not guilty by reason of insanity are typically far worse for the accused than if they had simply been found guilty of a standard criminal conviction. There are no hard guidelines for when they are sane enough to be released and they often spend multiple-more years in institutions for the criminally insane than they would have if they had been sent to prison with a defined sentence.
Though of course there are the people like the last planned parenthood shooter who were not even found competent to stand trial, so he didn't get any defense.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:41 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Prospective mass shooters seem to try to outdo the last record for people killed/injured.

I sincerely hope that future killers realize the futility of trying to top the Las Vegas shooting.
Of course they won't. You could have said the same after the Pulse shooting in Orlando last year.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:43 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
My opinion it's two different rooms ... seem too far apart ...
I stayed in a suite at Mandalay Bay that looked very much like that room. The bend in the building multiple windows, ( for a couple of bedrooms in the suite) and a view of the airport.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:43 AM   #353
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Here is some good news.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/02/inve...nds/index.html

Gun stocks and likely gun sales will be up because of this.

As the song says "Always look on the bright side of death".
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:44 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why? What's your argument, exactly? I don't see how any of that supports your earlier claim.
Here's part of my position.

https://www.apa.org/news/press/relea...ion-effect.pdf

Mass Shootings and the Media Contagion Effect
Jennifer Johnston, Ph.D. and Andrew Joy, BS
Western New Mexico University

"Profiles of shooters indicate that they are often socially isolated and suffer a pattern of ostracization or bullying, yet they tend toward narcissism (Fox & Delateur, 2013; Fox & Levin, 2013; Meloy, 2014). Many fantasize about revenge or murder, and that this type of fantasy is not unusual or “extreme.” Buss’s (2005) research indicates up to 90% of men fantasize about murder.

What tips the scales from fantasy to reality? We would argue identification with prior mass shooters made famous by extensive media coverage, including names, faces, writings, and detailed accounts of their lives and backgrounds, is a more powerful push toward violence than mental health status or even access to guns. First proposed by Phillips (1983), the violent media contagion effect was largely ignored by criminologists and psychologists, but more recently the evidence of the power of copycat homicide is mounting."
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:45 AM   #355
Ranb
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Wikipedia has identified a man they say is the perp's father who was on the FBI's most wanted list years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_L...Strip_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Te...oskins_Paddock
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...nted-list.html
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:45 AM   #356
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
And when it is, the consequences of a successful plea of not guilty by reason of insanity are typically far worse for the accused than if they had simply been found guilty of a standard criminal conviction. There are no hard guidelines for when they are sane enough to be released and they often spend multiple-more years in institutions for the criminally insane than they would have if they had been sent to prison with a defined sentence.
I would hope they are receiving appropriate care and that we wouldn't be able to classify it as "worse."
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:47 AM   #357
ceptimus
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‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - The Onion.

Last edited by ceptimus; 2nd October 2017 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:47 AM   #358
DragonLady
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why? What's your argument, exactly? I don't see how any of that supports your earlier claim.
What's YOUR argument? That mental illness means we should all hang our heads and feel terribly, horribly sorry for the ******* that just murdered the equivalent of an entire football team?

If so; what will that accomplish? Will it bring back any of those previously healthy people who simply wanted to enjoy a concert? Will it do anything to repair the families who are going to be hurting for the rest of their lives?

Actions have consequences. Being mentally ill may make an action more understandable or somehow more easily accepted than "just pure evil" but at the end of the day it's not going to change the outcomes for anyone involved.

I understand why people rob banks. Sometimes, I even think I'd do the same in some circumstances "Oh, your child needed a heart transplant, so you robbed a bank to pay for it? Yeah...I can imagine I might do the same...." But it doesn't make it okay.

I feel for anyone with a terrible mental illness who thinks aliens are telling him to topple buildings or blow holes in their fellow hotel guests. I'm sure it's a terrible existence. But for the safety of everyone, everywhere, I have to draw the line and say "remove this person, and do not let him become anyone's hero" because the first loyalty has to be to those who are not damaged or broken. Those who are whole and healthy are the future of mankind, not the aberrations.

I understand it's not very fair. But it's far less unfair then what his victims have experienced --which goes double if he was so far removed from reality that he had no clue whether he was in prison or paradise.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:47 AM   #359
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Wikipedia has identified a man they say is the perp's father who was on the FBI's most wanted list years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_L...Strip_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Te...oskins_Paddock
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...nted-list.html
Wikipedia.

/thread
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Old 2nd October 2017, 09:47 AM   #360
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Hillary Clinton had this to say:

Quote:
Imagine the deaths if the shooter had a silencer, which the NRA wants to make easier to get.
It would have made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Why are people trying to tie this event to suppressors?
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