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Old 5th October 2017, 12:19 PM   #281
Cleon
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
"We had one of the most horrific tragedies that's ever taken place on US soil."
Seriously? I doubt this would even crack the top 50.
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:05 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't mean as a government power. I meant an individual using their ability... searching the internet, asking questions, etc.
I don't even know why we're talking about meritocracy. I don't see what merit has to do with gun control.

I think I've been led down Primrose Lane.
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:13 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
I don't even know why we're talking about meritocracy. I don't see what merit has to do with gun control.

I think I've been led down Primrose Lane.
No, sorry, this is Moot Blvd. Primrose is a couple blocks thattaway.
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:26 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Here's something from Constitution.org (cannot comment on the quality of the source)



http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm
The only problem is well functioning does not mean equipped, unless of course you stretch the meaning. One would expect a well functioning militia would have appropriate and effective protections and safeguards, (possibly even regulations) in place to help save the civilians the militia is supposed to be in place to protect.

Additionally in each of those quoted examples, you could effectively apply the standard definitions for regulated and the quotes still make sense. (Also note that he did not quote the direct definition from the relevant dictionaries)

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Old 5th October 2017, 01:55 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
I don't even know why we're talking about meritocracy. I don't see what merit has to do with gun control.

I think I've been led down Primrose Lane.
You asserted a right to easily have access to information. I used meritocracy broadly to refer to ability and said you do have the freedom to find that information to the limit of your ability to social engineer the situation.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:21 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I would say he was no Charles Whitman.
Was there a Rumor About A Tumor?
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:22 PM   #287
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It is appears many in the GOP and even the NRA are willing to consider banning bump stocks.

This would be a good accomplishment.

Automatic firearms are heavily regulated and bump stocks circumvent these regulations.

Time to make them illegal.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:23 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Press Secretary Sarah Sanders just said this...

"At this point in the process, I think we need to all take a step back. We had one of the most horrific tragedies that's ever taken place on US soil. Before we can run out and start talking about the preventions... we have to determine what caused it. We havenít gotten that far down the road. The President is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. That hasnít changed."
She has now stated that Trump is ready to look at bump stocks and if they should be banned.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:26 PM   #289
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NRA calls for review on whether bump stocks should be subject to additional regulations

Originally Posted by CNN
The National Rifle Association announced Thursday that it supports a review of bump fire stocks to see if they are in accordance with federal law.

The group's support comes following the mass shooting that took place in Las Vegas earlier in the week and amid calls to ban the devices, which allow semi-automatic weapons to simulate automatic weapon fire.

The NRA is typically the nation's most prominent lobbyist group against stricter gun regulations.

"The National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law," the NRA said in a statement. "The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations."

The debate on banning bump stocks is taking place on Capitol Hill. Florida Republican Rep. Carlos Curbelo is planning to introduce legislation Thursday to ban the sale of them.

"I think we are on the verge of a breakthrough when it comes to sensible gun policy," Curbelo told reporters Thursday...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/05/politi...cks/index.html
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:27 PM   #290
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NYT columnist proposes repealing the 2nd amendment:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/o...ype=collection

I wonder if a more palatable alternative would be to amend it as follows:
Quote:
For the purposes of this amendment, the terms "well-regulated," "militia," "the people," "arms" and "infringed" may be defined by the Congress.

Last edited by Bob001; 5th October 2017 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:30 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Can you explain what this will do for rapid firing rifles? Let's say the slide fire stocks go away and people resume what they simply did in the past; bump firing without the slide fire stock. What as been accomplished by banning these stock?

I think banning the slide fire stocks will be just as effective at reducing the rate of fire on an AR-15 as banning the black colored anodizing that is so popular. In other words, no effect at all.

If you read the rest of the posts in the thread you started you might not be making these fundamental errors in your arguments.
And modifying a semi auto internally to fire full auto is not very hard, and can be done with hand tools and materials you can buy at any hardware store.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:31 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And modifying a semi auto internally to fire full auto is not very hard, and can be done with hand tools and materials you can buy at any hardware store.
And if you get caught with one you go to prison.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:34 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And modifying a semi auto internally to fire full auto is not very hard, and can be done with hand tools and materials you can buy at any hardware store.
Would there be technical means to make that harder? Say by sealing access to the internal mechanism, welding small parts in place, etc.?
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:42 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nope. Completely meaningless. It doesn't any way restrict the right of the people.
The government would not be infringing on the right to bear arms if it only allowed single action revolvers and bolt action rifles to be owned by private citizens.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:44 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
And if you get caught with one you go to prison.
Most people are in possession of rubber bands, springs, and wood.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:48 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Would there be technical means to make that harder? Say by sealing access to the internal mechanism, welding small parts in place, etc.?
Most of the small parts involved are moving parts,which makes welding them sort of out of the question.
And you can't seal it without making it impossible to clean the parts..which you need to with any gun on a regular basis.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:51 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
And if you get caught with one you go to prison.
And you could go to prison for drinking booze during Prohibition......
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:55 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And you could go to prison for drinking booze during Prohibition......
Its illegal to drink while driving or operating dangerous machinery, too.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:57 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Most people are in possession of rubber bands, springs, and wood.
And if you build your own device so as to facilitate automatic fire on an AK or AR, you should go to prison or pay a big fine, whatever the ATF rules say.
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Old 5th October 2017, 02:59 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
The government would not be infringing on the right to bear arms if it only allowed single action revolvers and bolt action rifles to be owned by private citizens.
I personally wouldn't care to much if we banned all semi-automatic firearms, but the courts seem to think that would be going to far.
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Old 5th October 2017, 04:23 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Was there a Rumor About A Tumor?
What the the CT'ers saying? Mind control tumor?
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Old 5th October 2017, 04:24 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
This would be a good accomplishment.

Automatic firearms are heavily regulated and bump stocks circumvent these regulations.
What good will it do when a person can bump fire rapidly without a slide fire stock? I asked you before, but only got evasion.

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
And if you build your own device so as to facilitate automatic fire on an AK or AR, you should go to prison or pay a big fine, whatever the ATF rules say.
The rules currently say slide fire is legal without NFA registery. So no jail for you. The rubber bands and string, well, get a lawyer.

Last edited by Ranb; 5th October 2017 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 5th October 2017, 04:28 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Quote:
"The National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law," the NRA said in a statement. "The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations."
The NRA is just jerking everyone's chain when they say this. They know the BATFE has reviewed slide fire more than once and each time said it not regulated by the NFA of 1934.
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Old 5th October 2017, 04:40 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
And if you get caught with one you go to prison.
Is the point here to stop mass murderers? Because they are going to prison (or the grave) anyway.
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Old 5th October 2017, 04:43 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
The government would not be infringing on the right to bear arms if it only allowed single action revolvers and bolt action rifles to be owned by private citizens.
Yes it would. They are infringing on the right to bear arms now.
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Old 5th October 2017, 05:26 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And modifying a semi auto internally to fire full auto is not very hard, and can be done with hand tools and materials you can buy at any hardware store.
Not very hard from your perspective, no doubt, but the learning curve can be rather demanding for the less-experienced.
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Old 5th October 2017, 06:05 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
A well regulated militia...

This part could be interpreted to mean the government has the authority to decide which kinds of arms a militia could bear.

So the government could ban semi-automatic rifles and handguns.
Except that no government has ever interpreted it that way, and no Supreme Court has ever ruled using that interpretation. Don't go celebrating your exciting constitutional discovery just yet.

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Old 5th October 2017, 06:07 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Here's what you have to do to buy a shotgun in Japan:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...305_story.html
Why would you want to buy a shotgun in Japan? There must be plenty of other ways to commit suicide.

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Old 5th October 2017, 06:17 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
I consulted a thesaurus and nowhere could I find equipped as a synonom for regulated and vice versa. Can you provide a source or sources that shows regulated meant equipped back then?

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Your google-fu sucks

I tried: regulated functioning dictionary 1800s
and got
http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm

Quote:
The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:
1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."
1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."
1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."
1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."
1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."
The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
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Old 5th October 2017, 06:43 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I would say he was no Charles Whitman.
They each had a guy they were shooting at flip them the bird.
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Old 5th October 2017, 07:22 PM   #311
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I've done a lot of reading about the 2nd Amendment and the intent of the Founders.

They clearly saw government tyranny as a real threat that had to be kept in check by an armed populace.

I don't support the idea but its pretty clear they made the 2nd Am to provide for an armed public that could repel govt. tyranny AND to be called upon by the government to repel invasion and fight insurrection.
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Old 5th October 2017, 07:54 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Except that no government has ever interpreted it that way, and no Supreme Court has ever ruled using that interpretation. Don't go celebrating your exciting constitutional discovery just yet.

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Uhmmm, USA vs Miller?
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:04 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What good will it do when a person can bump fire rapidly without a slide fire stock? I asked you before, but only got evasion...
It will stop anyone who wants to commit mass-murder from taking "the easy way" with a bump-stock. It might even encourage a would-be mass murderer/terrorist to join a gun club, learn rifle skills, teach them how to enjoy life, find out that gun people aren't so bad, meet the girl of his dreams and forget all about killing.

Trump gets a boost, the NRA gets a long needed boost it's win-win for everyone! Seriously the only losers would be guys like these:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


And isn't that what you want? Not to be associated with people being irresponsible with guns?

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
The NRA is just jerking everyone's chain when they say this. They know the BATFE has reviewed slide fire more than once and each time said it not regulated by the NFA of 1934.
You might want to check out Lisa Jean's video again. How many views did she have on Sunday night when you put up the link? ABC used her video the other night and now she has 1,483,676 views! Which isn't surprising. But what is surprising is the number of "Gun Enthusiasts" who have opined for the need to ban Bump-stocks. Now, granted, this might be some Putin/libtard psy-op but I don't think so.
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:09 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I've done a lot of reading about the 2nd Amendment and the intent of the Founders.

They clearly saw government tyranny as a real threat that had to be kept in check by an armed populace.

I don't support the idea but its pretty clear they made the 2nd Am to provide for an armed public that could repel govt. tyranny AND to be called upon by the government to repel invasion and fight insurrection.
The Founding Fathers disagreed on many things. The language of the Constitution and Bill of Rights is the result of a lot of compromise.

The real protection from tyranny in modern America is that our armed forces are as diverse as our nation. The right to bear arms in military service has been extended to all regardless or race, creed, national origin or sex. Our nation no longer has ethnically pure military units willing to attack civilians of other ethnic groups.

ETA: This is basically the collective rights interpretation of the Second Amendment.

Last edited by Kestrel; 5th October 2017 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:18 PM   #315
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A brief history of where we are and how we got here, starting with this point:
Quote:
Fewer than 8 million people, only 3 percent of all American adults, own roughly half the guns. Members of that tiny minority of superenthusiasts own an average of 17 guns apiece. ..... Let me put a finer point on what Iím saying. Very, very few of the guns in America are used for hunting. Americans who own guns today keep arsenals in a way people did not 40 years ago. It seems plain to me that thatís because theyónot all, but manyóhave given themselves over to fantasies.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...overnment.html
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:29 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
It will stop anyone who wants to commit mass-murder from taking "the easy way" with a bump-stock.
You're joking right? Why does bump firing make it easier?

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Trump gets a boost, the NRA gets a long needed boost it's win-win for everyone!
Not from their die-hard supporters. You think the anti-gun people are going to applaud the NRA or Trump for doing so little?

Quote:
But what is surprising is the number of "Gun Enthusiasts" who have opined for the need to ban Bump-stocks. Now, granted, this might be some Putin/libtard psy-op but I don't think so.
What is disappointing is the number of people who are all butt hurt that someone used a device (slide fire stock) which probably had little effect on that night's tragic outcome.
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:37 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
I tried: regulated functioning dictionary 1800s
and got...
Quote:
Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.
I doubt the framers intended it to include nutcases going on killing sprees. But how could they guess what the unintended consequences would be, 200 years later?

Second Amendment to the United States Constitution
Quote:
Federalists, including James Madison, initially argued that a bill of rights was unnecessary, sufficiently confident that the federal government could never raise a standing army powerful enough to overcome a militia... Anti-federalists, on the other hand, advocated amending the Constitution with clearly defined and enumerated rights providing more explicit constraints on the new government.
The truth is, the 2nd amendment was a sop to libertarians who distrusted federal government so much that they needed an explicit right to arm themselves against the 'tyranny' of a United States. That may seem silly today, but back then it was very real threat.
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:46 PM   #318
Ranb
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A bill was introduced to ban devices that increase the rate of fire of semi-auto firearms.

https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/pub...ention-act.pdf

Quote:
it shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacture, transfer, or possess, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, a trigger crank, a bump-fire device, or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle but not convert the semiautomatic rifle into a machinegun.
http://www.guns.com/2017/10/05/democ...-capitol-hill/

Quote:
“Automatic weapons have been illegal for more than 30 years, but there’s a loophole in the law that can be exploited to allow killers to fire at rates of between 400 and 800 rounds-per-minute,” said Feinstein.
That's a lie. But maybe she thinks if she repeats it enough people will start to believe her.

Quote:
“The only reason to fire so many rounds so fast is to kill large numbers of people.
Or to make Youtube videos.

Quote:
No one should be able to easily and cheaply modify legal weapons into what are essentially machine guns.”
Then who is going to supply the military with weapons?

Last edited by Ranb; 5th October 2017 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:49 PM   #319
theprestige
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Uhmmm, USA vs Miller?
Not the way you've explained it, no.
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Old 5th October 2017, 09:50 PM   #320
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Where was this consensus?
Everyone that heard the audio of the shooting and isn't hung up on some ludicrous technicality the gun lovers seem to think matters.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
When bump firing it is the person's finger depressing the trigger for each shot. Rocking the rifle back and forth against the trigger finger is faster than pressing and releasing the trigger for each shot though.
So your point challenging the consensus then?

Honestly Ranb, there may be more than a few members of this forum and other gun communities that care about some piddly little technicality. For me and other people I know who are not gun techies, no one gives a rip. The gun shots were rapid enough for drill. Why argue it wasn't automatic fire because... some stupid not relevant thing?

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 5th October 2017 at 10:26 PM.
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