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Old 11th October 2017, 12:07 AM   #241
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..2 and it may apply to all forms of farming other than meant for, taking fully riped fruits, naturally dead, waste & superfluous parts, nector, honey drops, honey after beescleave, milk from happy animals, cotton, silk, pearls after worms leave, etc.
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Old 11th October 2017, 12:30 AM   #242
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Ploughing the ground to plant crops is obviously not on, being cruel to worms and so on. What world population do you think is sustainable given your preferred horticultural methods?
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Old 11th October 2017, 12:38 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
..2 and it may apply to all forms of farming other than meant for, taking fully riped fruits, naturally dead, waste & superfluous parts...

Do you eat bread, Kumar?

Quote:
...nector, honey drops, honey after beescleave...

Bees no not cleave of their own accord, you know. If you see half a bee it has had an unpleasant accident. And you are possibly in the "fish licence" sketch.

Quote:
...milk from happy animals...

What do you think happens to the calves of dairy cattle?

Quote:
...silk...

Do you think silkworms survive the process of boiling them alive to extract the silk from their cocoons?

Quote:
...pearls after worms leave, etc.

Pearls are not produced by worms. And, once again, the oysters don't benefit from the process that results in having them retrieved..
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:31 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Ploughing the ground to plant crops is obviously not on, being cruel to worms and so on. What world population do you think is sustainable given your preferred horticultural methods?
I do not know, what and how nature had maintained us(also other species) since most of our evolution, mostly without our active interventions? Do you know it?

The same way nature can still go on.
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:36 AM   #245
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Odds can not make odd as even. If I am odd, it does not mean logic can also be odd. Do not we get any state when, Honey bees, Silk worms & Oysters, leave or die naturally, which do not make us to kill them?
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:54 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I do not know, what and how nature had maintained us(also other species) since most of our evolution, mostly without our active interventions? Do you know it?

The same way nature can still go on.
I'm sorry, I haven't the faintest idea what you are trying to ask. Could you try again, please.
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:55 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post



What do you think happens to the calves of dairy cattle?




Do you think silkworms survive the process of boiling them alive to extract the silk from their cocoons?



.
Where? In wild places or in breeding farms?

I was talking about "wild silk" and this one:
""Peace silk", also known as "vegetarian silk" is raised and processed differently. The moths are allowed to emerge from their cocoons to live out their full life cycle. The silk is degummed and spun like other fiber, instead of being reeled. The resulting yarn is soft, fluffy, and light like a cloud. This is the best silk for warmth and therapeutic use."
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:15 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Odds can not make odd as even. If I am odd, it does not mean logic can also be odd. Do not we get any state when, Honey bees, Silk worms & Oysters, leave or die naturally, which do not make us to kill them?
Drivel
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:23 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I do not know, what and how nature had maintained us(also other species) since most of our evolution, mostly without our active interventions? Do you know it?

The same way nature can still go on.

In nature, animals maintain themselves by eating other animals or plants.
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:29 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Odds can not make odd as even. If I am odd, it does not mean logic can also be odd. Do not we get any state when, Honey bees, Silk worms & Oysters, leave or die naturally, which do not make us to kill them?

If they "die naturally" it is pretty much inevitable that something will have killed them. Animals in the wild rarely have a "what a nice way to go" death.
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:41 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
In nature, animals maintain themselves by eating other animals or plants.
Yes that is natural to them. Moreover that is for their basic need.
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:42 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If they "die naturally" it is pretty much inevitable that something will have killed them. Animals in the wild rarely have a "what a nice way to go" death.
That will be natural.
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:44 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I'm sorry, I haven't the faintest idea what you are trying to ask. Could you try again, please.
Nature had maintained since long even without unnature.
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:46 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
"Good discussions" do not involve repeating your initial premises, having ignored all the well argued and supported objections to them. You are taking a "one sided approach".
NO. I can evaluate the discussion so conclued. Any odd in conclusion?
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:56 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Nature had maintained since long even without unnature.
I see words, I don't see meaning.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:07 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Nature had maintained since long even without unnature.
No, that's made it worse.

You know that English you use when you complain in FMF? That version which everyone can understand: plain, simple, proper grammar, and error-free? How about trying that now, so that I can begin to understand what meaning you are trying to convey.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:28 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Whatever wrong one is doing, do not entitle other to do that. So can't be compared or made example. I am not sure if peta do that cruelty as you told. Please give evidence.
https://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof-peta-kills/

This is not a new thing, PETA has always done this. For an animal, being taken in by PETA is akin to a death sentence.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:38 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
NO. I can evaluate the discussion so conclued. Any odd in conclusion?

Yes. You have failed to honestly evaluate the discussion, because your conclusion ignores pretty much everything that everyone other than you has posted. You don't want a discussion, you want an echo chamber.

You have a one-sided approach.
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:12 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
https://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof-peta-kills/

This is not a new thing, PETA has always done this. For an animal, being taken in by PETA is akin to a death sentence.
It is shoking. No belief. However I need to carefully check it in view of there can be many many opponents to them. Moreover, if such animals were not fit to be maintained with other animals. Sterlization still an odd but may be a compulsion.

Anyway, inspite of their odds, it does not entitle for a caveat to do the same.
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:37 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It is shoking. No belief. However I need to carefully check it in view of there can be many many opponents to them.
PETA has many opponents because of their egregious behavior. The examples I cited of their misbehavior were things that PETA does not dispute. They admit they do these things. In some cases the admit it proudly, such as their vice president's use of animal-produced insulin. Her excuse was that she's personally important enough to warrant breaking their supposed moral code on her behalf. They admit that they euthanize animals on a grand scale. You should have known all this before using them as a source. But you didn't; you just found a random link that supported what you already wanted to believe and thought it would be okay.

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Anyway, inspite of their odds, it does not entitle for a caveat to do the same.
That's not the point. The point is that this is the group you cited in favor of your argument, from whom you borrowed your moral mandate, and upon whom you relied for information about diet and animal keeping. Upon having been given reason to doubt your rosy view of them, you did nothing. You "dug in" and demanded that your critics produce information you should have already known about. Despite being warned several times that you were not wise to base your morals on them, you didn't do even the slightest amount of due diligence. Now that you've realized your critics were right and you were wrong, you're still trying to find some way to salvage the situation.

The point is that you take no critical thought to your own beliefs and sources.
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:03 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I do not know, what and how nature had maintained us(also other species) since most of our evolution, mostly without our active interventions? Do you know it?

The same way nature can still go on.
If you do not know, why are you writing here? It is, after all, the meat of your argument. You say this is what we should do, but you do not know what this is.

You can see how nature maintains other species, as it still occurs. Watch the robin eat the worm, the lion eat the impala, the spider encase its victim and liquefy its living flesh. You can read up on how mankind lived in prehistoric and pre-cultural times. Why not find this out before dilating on things about which you admit knowing nothing?
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:31 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
https://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof-peta-kills/

This is not a new thing, PETA has always done this. For an animal, being taken in by PETA is akin to a death sentence.
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
PETA has many opponents because of their egregious behavior. The examples I cited of their misbehavior were things that PETA does not dispute. They admit they do these things. In some cases the admit it proudly, such as their vice president's use of animal-produced insulin. Her excuse was that she's personally important enough to warrant breaking their supposed moral code on her behalf. They admit that they euthanize animals on a grand scale. You should have known all this before using them as a source. But you didn't; you just found a random link that supported what you already wanted to believe and thought it would be okay.



That's not the point. The point is that this is the group you cited in favor of your argument, from whom you borrowed your moral mandate, and upon whom you relied for information about diet and animal keeping. Upon having been given reason to doubt your rosy view of them, you did nothing. You "dug in" and demanded that your critics produce information you should have already known about. Despite being warned several times that you were not wise to base your morals on them, you didn't do even the slightest amount of due diligence. Now that you've realized your critics were right and you were wrong, you're still trying to find some way to salvage the situation.

The point is that you take no critical thought to your own beliefs and sources.
Yes but I have yet to understand, why they euthanize the animals? Are they just killíng or have some justification to it? If they are odd, how they get so much donations? I just have to check if from their POV. Will come back later.
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:39 AM   #263
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They don't believe in keeping animals in captivity, even domestic animals, so they kill them instead.

There is a kind of logic in that, although somewhat twisted.

They get donations from nutcases and idiots, and we know there are enough of those around.
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Old 11th October 2017, 08:50 AM   #264
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Kumar, if we ate only carrion, would that be all right with you? Please say yes, because otherwise we'll all have to go on a mineral diet.

Come to think of it, why should sand suffer?
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:00 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Even then, others are slaughtered in front of them
No, they're not. And they don't have the brains to put 2 and 2 together. Literally.
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:01 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I think, similar observations can also be felt in case of botanical beings. They go on offering their products(all parts) by new growth inspite of fact, all parts are cut/plucked and used by humans.
Do you ever read your own posts to yourself before hitting "submit"?

This is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever posted, and that's saying a lot. Plants don't think.
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:29 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes but I have yet to understand...
That's right, you don't currently understand. It has taken several attempts to get you to even begin thinking critically about your sources and even begin to contemplate performing due diligence on them. You responded to information about your sources with a knee-jerk reaction to defend them. A conscientious person doesn't lash out others when it becomes apparent he understands less of a subject than they.

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why they euthanize the animals? Are they just killíng or have some justification to it?
They believe that any keeping or control of animals by humans is "enslavement" and that such a condition is worse than death. (Except, of course, when it's used to produce the insulin that keeps one of their high-ranking officers alive. Then it's okay.)

The animals I keep personally are in a symbiotic relationship. My cats perform a service I value, in return for which I exercise care in enriching and prolonging their lives. My dogs perform a service I value, and would not be viable organisms (e.g., one is blind, the other was lame) without my ongoing care. It would be difficult, in my estimation, to call that cruelty.

The animals I eat as food were bred and raised for that purpose. Without the purpose, the species would not exist. Without the purpose, the individual animals would not exist -- at least in so many numbers. As I said, my brother-in-law's family operates a cattle ranch large enough to be seen from space. I have seen how the animals are cared for and treated in large numbers, on a large scale. When these animals die or otherwise render their service, it is to fulfill a purpose: food, clothing, protection, lifesaving medicines and other procedures. You hear about these things and knee-jerkedly equate them with greed and gluttony.

PETA believes in neither of these purposes. They have "rescued" thousands of animals, by which they mean they have removed thousands of animals from environments they deemed unhealthy or immoral for no reason other than that disapproval. But what to do with them then? They can't keep the animals themselves, because that would just be "enslavement" under different circumstances. They can't give them over to other caretakers -- again, just more "enslavement." They don't have the resources to rehabilitate all the animals for return to life in their natural habitats, even if such a thing would be possible. PETA tells you they are therefore pinioned by circumstances to euthanize the animals. Death is better than captivity in any form, in their mind.

But PETA is pinioned by nothing more than their own perverted moral view. They have explicitly adopted a no-compromise stance for their moral edicts (except, as noted, when it hits too close to home). This irrational approach cuts off reasonable alternatives, but PETA advertises itself as a "radical" organization and so obviously isn't overly concerned with being reasonable. To put it bluntly, perfectly good animals die by PETA's hand only to demonstrate PETA's political resolve.

Now stand there and tell me with a straight face that this is a better justification than the ones I gave you above for the reasonable breeding and keeping of animals. I dare you.

Even worse, the simplistic, delusional moral model put out by Ingrid Newkirk and others is based on the presumption that animals and humans are equivalent in all respects. Animal keeping is enslavement. Eating meat is cannibalism. This is not just hyperbole; this is what they actually teach. You seem to have fallen for it hook-line-and-sinker. Not only does this lead them unwarrantedly to exalt even the lowliest animal species, it leads them to devalue human life. This group feels fully justified not only in killing animals rather than letting them fall into "captivity," but in putting humans in danger. PETA encourages and gives money to militants who commit crimes against humans when they believe animals are at stake.

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If they are odd, how they get so much donations?
Because of the flood of slick propaganda they send out, which omits the gory details of what they actually do and focuses instead on what looks good on paper. Just like you, many people don't exercise due diligence. If you get a glossy brochure telling you about rescuing animals from unsanitary and inhumane factory farms or circuses where they are tortured for entertainment, you would be inclined on that basis to fork over fifty bucks -- hey, it's tax deductible, and it seems like a good cause.

Obviously those brochures don't tell the darker side, which is that they can't (and don't want to) keep the animals they rescue so they just kill them. They don't tell you about fronting and funding the Animal Liberation Front and other violent criminal organizations. They don't tell you that they spend more money encouraging and defending these militants than they do actually rescuing and caring for animals. You have to look for these facts, and many people -- like you -- just don't bother to do that. PETA hires hotshot publicists to keep enough glossy information easily available and to dance around the more egregious exploits. They hire enough sharp lawyers to go after people who denigrate them.

But even still there are enough people who know all this about PETA and still contribute anyway. Just because something doesn't make sense doesn't mean you can't get people excited about it enough to support it.

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I just have to check if from their POV.
We've given you the facts about PETA. There is no "point of view" that matters a whole lot after that. It's odd that you would want to go read their spin rather than to ascertain what the facts are.
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:55 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Kumar, if we ate only carrion, would that be all right with you? Please say yes, because otherwise we'll all have to go on a mineral diet.

Come to think of it, why should sand suffer?

It seems to get into some sticky situations:
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Your post now suggest as if, all photons, emitted from all atoms are same eg. like sand partcles in a dessert.
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Old 11th October 2017, 10:34 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, they're not.
Not in the first world, no, but in the third world, which is possibly Kumar's experience, animals are slaughtered in a more ad-hoc manner, often by the owner rather than in an abattoir. This doesn't change anything in terms of the argument, though.
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Old 11th October 2017, 12:47 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Fullfilling basic natural needs should not be an issue but greed, luxury or otherwise can be.

But you don't object to eating animals for afters:
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
In a dessert any type of meat may be justified & so not a sin...
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:03 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But you don't object to eating animals for afters:
Maybe in his culture, afters are not considered indulgent. But that raises one of the other problems in his argument. He's not absolutely opposed to the idea of eating meat, as PETA is. But he attempts to draw a distinction between "basic needs" and "greed and luxury." I'm not advocating gluttony, but I wonder if Kumar, in his infinite wisdom, is able to set forth some objective, universal criteria for where basic needs stop and where gluttony begins. Apparently the cow is appropriately noble and deferential if she sacrifices her buttcheeks for a basic meal, but that same cow would be rightly offended if those buttcheeks were going to supply a hamburger-eating contest.
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:08 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But you don't object to eating animals for afters:
I predict that this goes so far over Kumar's head as to be in low earth orbit.
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:16 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
If they have no feeling or cognition, how they become pet animals?
Where did I say they did not have feeling or cognition? Quote me.

You are a liar, Kumar.

Hans
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:06 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
All,
We had good discussions in this thread. Thanks. I think, I can conclude now. Idiócy: on part of those animals, who do not leave even if set free. They overestimate their owners like their godfather, who nurse, feed and show lóve towards them but got killed by them ultimately. 2. Compulsion: Those who always kept in captivity. I feel gratitude and nobility do not apply in this case. Ok?
False conclusions
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Old 11th October 2017, 02:24 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Where did I say they did not have feeling or cognition? Quote me.

You are a liar, Kumar.

Hans
I think he was responding to me. Got to keep the lies lined up in a row so they do not stray accidentally into the territory of truth.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:13 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think he was responding to me.
He may have been, but here's what I read: Kumar said
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Sorry. Simply, Are those animals not Idiots who misunderstand their owners by over believing them, who initially nurse & love them but slaughter ultimately? Can't say, if those poor animals also feel that their owners being human are senior most among all beings so will consider them like guardian or parents?
which expresses his central assumption, that animals have emotional and intellectual properties that make them recognize humans as superior and as having certain intentions. MRC_Hans, appropriately enough, answered in part
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No, they are not idiots. They simply do not have the sufficient intelligence to see through things.
Kumar's response to that was
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
If they have no feeling or cognition, how they become pet animals?
The highlighted portions show Kumar's misrepresentation. Hans didn't say they had "no" cognition, just not enough to exhibit the higher-order reasoning Kumar was trying to attribute to them. That's where I accused Kumar of committing a straw-man fallacy.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:24 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
He may have been, but here's what I read: Kumar saidwhich expresses his central assumption, that animals have emotional and intellectual properties that make them recognize humans as superior and as having certain intentions. MRC_Hans, appropriately enough, answered in partKumar's response to that wasThe highlighted portions show Kumar's misrepresentation. Hans didn't say they had "no" cognition, just not enough to exhibit the higher-order reasoning Kumar was trying to attribute to them. That's where I accused Kumar of committing a straw-man fallacy.
Kumar, never one to waste his well chosen words, posted the same thing twice in a row, so in my feverish attempt to claim minor fame in the important events of the universe, I claim priority! All hail.
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Old 11th October 2017, 08:54 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you ever read your own posts to yourself before hitting "submit"?

This is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever posted, and that's saying a lot. Plants don't think.
They atleast have sense of touch and sense for life.
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Old 11th October 2017, 08:58 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Where did I say they did not have feeling or cognition? Quote me.

You are a liar, Kumar.

Hans
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
They still do not realize they are going to be slaughtered.

In nature, animals gravitate to where the food is. Sometimes one is killed by a predator. Does that make the rest stay away? - of course not.

Hans
I feel, your above post suggest somewhat that. Let the discussions complete before putting harsh remarks.
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:02 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I feel, your above post suggest somewhat that.

No, it doesn't.
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