ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th October 2017, 08:43 AM   #1
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,105
California HIV Exposure Laws

So California recently changed its laws so that knowingly exposing people to HIV will now be classed as a misdemeanor rather than a felony. WaPo article here. Also removes requirement that convicted sex workers be tested for HIV. My initial reaction is to disapprove but also to speculate that the impact will be very limited. Thoughts?
Civet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 10:01 AM   #2
Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
 
Beerina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 28,933
The law (as admitted in the article with its 3 cases) is designed around exceedingly rare instances of deliberate infection. In practice, they apparently have had 0 cases of that, but it is really used to toss prostitutes in jail for a felony.

Still, wouldn't that be attempted murder if you deliberately did it? That would cover the rare cases without tripping up prostitution. And if prostitutes sloppily risking infecting clients is an issue, could there be other laws to address that.

One should never be in favor of the smarmy twisting, by those in power, of a law into areas not envisioned by the legislature. (People cheer!)


G'hed. Click. I dare you.
This also includes declaring the Internet a public utility so it can be regulated sans direct instruction by Congress.
__________________
"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson

The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

Last edited by Beerina; 11th October 2017 at 10:04 AM.
Beerina is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 10:16 AM   #3
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Beerina View Post

Still, wouldn't that be attempted murder if you deliberately did it?
It's not a death sentence anymore.

https://www.healthline.com/health/hi...ancy#overview1

Quote:
In 2011, the total life expectancy bumped up to about 70 years. Someone who is HIV-positive, receiving treatment, and in optimal health ó meaning they donít do drugs and are free of other infections ó may live to be in their late 70s.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 11:55 AM   #4
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
It's not a death sentence anymore.
True, but the harm done still exceeds many other crimes which constitute felonies.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 11:56 AM   #5
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
True, but the harm done still exceeds many other crimes which constitute felonies.
Harm potentially done. There is a small chance of not contracting HIV.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 12:05 PM   #6
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Harm potentially done. There is a small chance of not contracting HIV.
Sure, but attempted crimes are still crimes. Making it a felony, even with modern drug treatments, is not at all out of line with the seriousness of the action.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 12:07 PM   #7
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Somewhere between the central U.S. and Hades
Posts: 11,375
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure, but attempted crimes are still crimes. Making it a felony, even with modern drug treatments, is not at all out of line with the seriousness of the action.
Put this way, it makes sense. Heck, the cost of that lifetime of drugs probably puts it higher in the "amount of harm done" category than grand theft-auto, even without any other consideration.
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 12:24 PM   #8
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,971
I'm not getting not requiring prostitutes to get testing done. True, HIV is not the death sentence that it used to be but it is an expensive preventable disease that can be curbed by knowing your status and seeking early intervention to prevent the continued spread of the disease.

PEP is also a drug that you can take if you can't abide condom use. I guess you could look at it two ways, who in their right mind would not use safe sex practices if you already belong to a high risk group? Everyone not in a monogamous relationship should be using condoms or PEP. Once diagnosed, it's hard to prove who gave what to who anyway.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 12:40 PM   #9
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure, but attempted crimes are still crimes. Making it a felony, even with modern drug treatments, is not at all out of line with the seriousness of the action.
Fair point.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 12:42 PM   #10
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 18,924
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm not getting not requiring prostitutes to get testing done. True, HIV is not the death sentence that it used to be but it is an expensive preventable disease that can be curbed by knowing your status and seeking early intervention to prevent the continued spread of the disease.

PEP is also a drug that you can take if you can't abide condom use. I guess you could look at it two ways, who in their right mind would not use safe sex practices if you already belong to a high risk group? Everyone not in a monogamous relationship should be using condoms or PEP. Once diagnosed, it's hard to prove who gave what to who anyway.
I hadn't considered the cost angle.

So what was the rationale for lowering the class of crime?
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 06:42 PM   #11
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,971
You can't prove who gave HIV to who first, no way to back the accusation since HIV might lie dormant for years before someone decides to get tested or it becomes AIDs.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd

Last edited by Jodie; 11th October 2017 at 06:50 PM.
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 07:01 PM   #12
Hercules56
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,677
It should be a crime to have sexual relations with someone without informing them you are HIV+

But its a he said she said issue.
Hercules56 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 07:08 PM   #13
BrooklynBaby
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 445
Is California going to make he said/she said rape cases misdemeanors as well?
BrooklynBaby is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2017, 09:00 PM   #14
mgidm86
Illuminator
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,689
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I hadn't considered the cost angle.

So what was the rationale for lowering the class of crime?

The rationale was not "stigmatizing" people with AIDS. That's exactly what it said in the article I read and it's stupid. More liberal "feel good" politics that make no sense, and may even harm some people.

This is not a well designed law.

And no, AIDS treatments are not even close to a guarantee. How ridiculous to consider that when drafting this crap legislation.

Shooting someone with a gun is a felony even if the wound inflicted isn't life threatening. What an utterly idiotic way of looking at it.

Welcome to California.

Jerry Brown, Berkeley, S.F., Oakland, Los Angeles, Feinstein, 49ers, homeless capital - man this state has a lot of crap!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2017, 12:12 AM   #15
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,971
Still, it gets back to proving who gave HIV to who and why didn't you wear a condom? It's usually consensual sex involved and both are just as equally responsible for protecting themselves.

However, here in SC it was hard to even identify the contacts with all of the quicky web sites. Most of the time they didn't know the partner's name, some couldn't even identify the partner's face for us to even try to ID all of the contacts.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2017, 05:42 AM   #16
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,614
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The rationale was not "stigmatizing" people with AIDS. That's exactly what it said in the article I read and it's stupid. More liberal "feel good" politics that make no sense, and may even harm some people.
There must be a big AIDS voting bloc. I remember during my green card medical exam blood test, the doc saying that they still tested for syphyillis but were no longer allowed to test for AIDS... So this happens on the federal level as well as state.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:42 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.