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Tags 9/11 , 9/11 conspiracy theories , 9/11 truthers , truthers

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Old 20th March 2020, 11:16 AM   #41
Allen773
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Wait, so you are saying you would betray your country and soil your good name for 10 cents?
Is this your explanation for the question in the OP? That everyone is as cheap, cynical and self-hating as you?
“I’m a greedy amoral mercenary, isn’t everyone else? I don’t understand the confusion.”
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Old 20th March 2020, 11:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
It's that special type of compartmentalisation when no one knows what other people are doing yet simultaneously worth closely with them.
I can’t imagine why I am being directed to place these demolition charges in the basement of the World Trade Center, but I have to work for all that gold they’re giving me, so like any normal human being I won’t ask questions.
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Old 20th March 2020, 11:42 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Remember the No-Fly Zone? Every time Iraq shot at one of our planes it was a violation of the cease-fire agreement they sign. Clinton used a couple of attacks to blow up a bunch of stuff in Iraq while he was POTUS. Cease-Fire doesn't mean we were at peace with Iraq, it meant we'd stop shooting at them if they stopped shooting at us. We didn't 911, we didn't need WMD's, all we had to do - if the plan was to invade Iraq - was to wait until Saddam did something massively stupid...which would have come sooner or later...
Saddam was so reckless and greedy, he launched two wars with the old-fashioned goal of annexing territory, first in Iran and then in Kuwait. That’s Hitler levels of delusion. But Saddam, as evil and brutal as he was in his own right, had nowhere near the power of Nazi Germany.

One major part of Saddam’s continued duplicity/bluffing on WMDs was that he wanted to convince not just his own people (or the US) that he might just have them, or at least the capability; but that the many enemies he had made in the Middle East would believe he had them and so would be dissuaded from trying to remove him from power. The two countries he was particularly worried about (again, besides the US) were Israel, the only nuclear-armed power in the Middle East — and Iran, who had their own WMD programs, supported and provided sanctuary to the Shia opponents of Saddam within Iraq, and who had demonstrated their resilience against Iraq back in the 1980s.

Of course, the US toppled Saddam anyway, empowered the Iraqi Shia - and in turn, Iran - and created a massive recruiting opportunity for al Qaeda and its affiliates. And Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the godfather of what became ISIS, shrewdly created an alliance of hardcore jihadist foreign fighters, angry, disenfranchised (and armed) Baathists, and Iraqi Sunnis who took up arms against both the Americans and the Shia — an alliance that sparked a sectarian bloodbath and civil war that ensnared American troops and their allies, along with millions of Iraqis caught in the crossfire.

Strategic winners of the ill-advised, poorly planned US-led invasion and occupation of Iraq: Iran and ISIS. Not good!
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Old 20th March 2020, 12:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
SECRET BLACK-OPS MEETING TRANSCRIPT:

Mr.X : The plan is to fake an attack on the US by flying four jumbo jets into specific targets.

Col. Y: What are the targets?

Mr. X: Both towers of the WTC in New York, the Pentagon, and a field somewhere in Pennsylvania.

Col. Y: Okay, what? Why crash a plane into Pennsylvania?

Mr.X: I'll get to that. Phase 1 will be the crashes, and Phase 2 will be the collapse of the buildings using controlled demolition.

Col Y: Are you nuts? Why not rig the buildings with explosives and set them off instead of flying jumbo jets into them?

Mr.X: We need a believable narrative?

Col Y: What kind of narrative?

Mr.X: We plan to invade Afghanistan and Iraq under the cover of these attacks. Those buildings need to come down.

Col Y: Why isn't crashing jets into the targets enough?

Mr X: We need the visuals, footage of the towers collapsing will be played over and over enraging the American people until they demand revenge.

Col Y: Okay. And we frame Iraqi Republican Guards and the Taliban for the attacks?

Mr.X: No, we'll frame Egyptians, Saudis, and everyone but Iraqis?

Col Y: But you said we're using the attacks as an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan? Why aren't we going to frame their governments?

Mr X: Too obvious.

Col Y: But won't the American people prefer we deal with the Saudis?

Mr.X: Leave that to me.

Col Y: Okay, so we invade Iraq and Afghanistan a week after the attack, right?

Mr X: No, fool, we invade Afghanistan first because we're framing Al Qaeda.

Col Y: Why not just strike Al Qaeda now? They bombed two of our embassies and the USS Cole. Why not just fake an intelligence report that they're planning a big strike in the US and then thwack them and invade Afghanistan under that pretense?

Mr X: We need dead Americans.

Col Y: When do we invade Iraq?

Mr X: Two years later. We're going to claim that they're stockpiling WMD's.

Col Y: They don't have any WMD's. Are we going to fly in some of our chemical stockpile to plant in Iraq?

Mr X: No.

Col Y: So we're going to wire three buildings with demo charges and fly jumbo jets - not hijacked by Iraqis or Afghans - into these targets to invade two countries...because why?

Mr X: Money and control.

Col Y: My kid is at Harvard and he says the money will be in something called Social Media.

Mr X: No, war is the answer (twirls mustache).

This reads like a script for a "That Mitchell & Webb" conspiracy theory skit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5muY64Oyp10
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Old 20th March 2020, 01:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This reads like a script for a "That Mitchell & Webb" conspiracy theory skit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5muY64Oyp10
"We need to build a massive rocket."
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Old 20th March 2020, 01:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
"We need to build a massive rocket."

We also need to get a chauffeur drunk!
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Old 20th March 2020, 01:47 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
We also need to get a chauffeur drunk!
Of course, "by accident".
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Old 20th March 2020, 02:04 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Of course, "by accident".
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Old 24th March 2020, 07:57 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"How do Truthers explain the cooperation/coordination needed within the US govt for an “inside job?” of 9/11?"

They can't.
More importantly, they don't need to. The assumption that false flag attacks can only be carried out by informing beforehand every person working at every level of federal, state, and local government is beyond stupid.

"Well you claim that the CIA carried out false flag attacks in Operation Ajax, but then how do you explain that the cleaning lady working at the local office of the National Park Service hasn't come forward about this? Because obviously the CIA could never have carried out such false flag attacks without having informed her, so got you there, you CTer!"
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Old 24th March 2020, 10:15 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
More importantly, they don't need to. The assumption that false flag attacks can only be carried out by informing beforehand every person working at every level of federal, state, and local government is beyond stupid.

"Well you claim that the CIA carried out false flag attacks in Operation Ajax, but then how do you explain that the cleaning lady working at the local office of the National Park Service hasn't come forward about this? Because obviously the CIA could never have carried out such false flag attacks without having informed her, so got you there, you CTer!"
Thank you for proving our point.

At no point did anyone say that everyone working at the Federal, State, and local governments were informed. Your lack of attention to detail and need to prove opinion as fact is why 911 Truth has been the clown car of CT's.

The guys working on the docks at US Navy bases don't know what the inside of a nuclear submarine's reactor room looks like, nor do they know the submarine's launch depths for missiles. The crew of an aircraft carrier is around 5,000 but very few know the arming depth of a helicopter launched torpedo.

Yet every day thousands of classified areas are accessed by technicians and cleaning staff who have very limited clearance or none at all (depended on the location). And our secrets are kept. Why? Because precautions are taken; desks are cleared and locked at the end of the day, computer terminals are logged out and secured, walls with maps and photos are covered by screen (at least they used to be), burn bags are collected on schedule, and so on.

The USS Maddox filed a report in which it thought it had been attacked. LBJ and Washington used that report to step up involvement in Vietnam.

The USS Maine blew up and sank in Havana Harbor, and the US Government (egged on by Yellow Journalism) used to event to launch the Spanish-American War.

On 9/11/2001, nineteen Al Qaeda operatives hijacked four commercial jetliners and flew three of them into targets in NYC and Washington D.C. with the last one flown into the ground during a passenger revolt. The President used this event to invade Afghanistan. Later, because the Bush NSC were 911 Truthers, the US invaded Iraq.

None of those incidents was initiated by a cabal. Each happened as history recorded it did, and then the powers that be took advantage of public anger and hysteria to launch military action.
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Old 24th March 2020, 10:47 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
On 9/11/2001, nineteen Al Qaeda operatives hijacked four commercial jetliners and flew three of them into targets in NYC and Washington D.C. with the last one flown into the ground during a passenger revolt. The President used this event to invade Afghanistan. Later, because the Bush NSC were 911 Truthers, the US invaded Iraq.

I have always thought the Iranian government must have pissed themselves laughing when America invaded Iraq intent on deposing Saddam Hussein. Its something they had been trying to do for eight years from 1980 to 1988.
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Old 24th March 2020, 11:18 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Thank you for proving our point.

At no point did anyone say that everyone working at the Federal, State, and local governments were informed.
True, only those on the East Coast, as well as the private sector "from the firms working in the World Trade Center to American and United Airlines" as well as every other country's government and intelligence service.

So to be clear, you're sticking with the claim that the only way for, say, the CIA to covertly get some jihadi's to engage in a terrorist attack on their behalf is to inform the federal government, state and local governments on the East Coast, as well as the private sector from the firms in the WTC to several air line companies?

Tell me then, I've already referenced Operation Ajax, where the CIA covertly got Islamic extremists to engage in terrorist attacks on their behalf. How could they possibly have done so without informing the "entire" government, private sector and media - since this is apparently a requirement for running such an operation?

Quote:
Your lack of attention to detail and need to prove opinion as fact is why 911 Truth has been the clown car of CT's.
I'm certainly seeing clownish stuff going on, that's for sure.

Quote:
None of those incidents was initiated by a cabal.
Prove it. Don't open the spoilers below until you've posted your answer to this challenge.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

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Last edited by zooterkin; 28th March 2020 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 24th March 2020, 11:42 PM   #53
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Here's a more recent example of something similar:
Quote:
Osmakac was the target of an elaborately orchestrated FBI sting that involved a paid informant, as well as FBI agents and support staff working on the setup for more than three months. The FBI provided all of the weapons seen in Osmakac’s martyrdom video. The bureau also gave Osmakac the car bomb he allegedly planned to detonate, and even money for a taxi so he could get to where the FBI needed him to go. Osmakac was a deeply disturbed young man, according to several of the psychiatrists and psychologists who examined him before trial. He became a “terrorist” only after the FBI provided the means, opportunity and final prodding necessary to make him one.
In this case the goal was getting arrests for terrorism, but one can easily see how this same method could've been used to actually get someone to engage in terrorist attacks. If the premise of this thread were true, then how was the FBI able to accomplish this without informing federal, state, and local governments as well as every other country's government and the private sector and media corporations?
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Old 25th March 2020, 05:49 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post

Tell me then, I've already referenced Operation Ajax, where the CIA covertly got Islamic extremists to engage in terrorist attacks on their behalf. How could they possibly have done so without informing the "entire" government, private sector and media - since this is apparently a requirement for running such an operation?
This is a somewhat...idiosyncratic view of Operation Ajax.
I always thought this was the name for the operation to remove Iran's democratically-elected president, and replace him with the Shah. In what way was this the CIA running Islamic extremists?
Oh, and how do you know about Operation Ajax? If it was so secret, how come it's public knowledge now? Aren't all secret operations always completely secret, since this is apparently a requirement for 9/11 CTs?
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:59 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Allen773
How do Truthers explain the cooperation/coordination needed within the US govt for an “inside job?” of 9/11?
 
Well the US govt is probably the most corrupt in the world..... They can do stuff you wouldnt even imagine!!!
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:15 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
/thread

GOLD -The picklock that never fails
If you were hip to the trip, you'd know it's Plata o plomo and it does fail.
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Old 25th March 2020, 10:45 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dude111 View Post
*
Well the US govt is probably the most corrupt in the world..... They can do stuff you wouldnt even imagine!!!
Hmm what makes you think that? Have you assessed the corruption level of a majority of the country governments of the world and assembled a ranking? Or can you point to any such ranking as your source?

How does the corruption of the US government compare to that of, say, the UK, Uruguay, United Arab Emirates or Ukraine, just to stay within the letter U?

Or did you write out of your arse?

(Apologies in case this was sarcasm and I missed it - I just don't know you)
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Old 25th March 2020, 10:59 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
More importantly, they don't need to. The assumption that false flag attacks can only be carried out by informing beforehand every person working at every level of federal, state, and local government is beyond stupid.
So you're implying that many people didn't need to know what they were doing, just follow the orders. I have a problem with that. After the fact, they would notice what they have helped doing, and you can be sure that many of them would speak up out of guilt. Since that hasn't happened, your claim isn't convincing.

Last edited by pgimeno; 25th March 2020 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:38 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
True, only those on the East Coast, as well as the private sector "from the firms working in the World Trade Center to American and United Airlines" as well as every other country's government and intelligence service.

So to be clear, you're sticking with the claim that the only way for, say, the CIA to covertly get some jihadi's to engage in a terrorist attack on their behalf is to inform the federal government, state and local governments on the East Coast, as well as the private sector from the firms in the WTC to several air line companies?

Tell me then, I've already referenced Operation Ajax, where the CIA covertly got Islamic extremists to engage in terrorist attacks on their behalf. How could they possibly have done so without informing the "entire" government, private sector and media - since this is apparently a requirement for running such an operation?



I'm certainly seeing clownish stuff going on, that's for sure.



Prove it. Don't open the spoilers below until you've posted your answer to this challenge.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.

The point you seem to be missing is that it wasn't 19 jihadists. It was planes never taking off and not even on the flight schedule, missiles, controlled demolition, fake news reports, CGI, and the list goes on. If it were just "the CIA convinced some jihadists" then, yes, you wouldn't need Consuela to cover for you. It's when you invent all sorts of co-ordination such as the garbage that is the no-planers that you start involving scores of scores of people.

Last edited by zooterkin; 28th March 2020 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Hmm what makes you think that? Have you assessed the corruption level of a majority of the country governments of the world and assembled a ranking? Or can you point to any such ranking as your source?

How does the corruption of the US government compare to that of, say, the UK, Uruguay, United Arab Emirates or Ukraine, just to stay within the letter U?

Or did you write out of your arse?

(Apologies in case this was sarcasm and I missed it - I just don't know you)
It didn't seem like sarcasm to me either.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This is a somewhat...idiosyncratic view of Operation Ajax.
I always thought this was the name for the operation to remove Iran's democratically-elected president, and replace him with the Shah. In what way was this the CIA running Islamic extremists?
In what way was the CIA running Islamic extremists to engage in assassinations and terrorist attacks to overthrow Iran's government the CIA running Islamic extremists?

Quote:
Oh, and how do you know about Operation Ajax?
Because several decades later the documents were made public.

Quote:
If it was so secret, how come it's public knowledge now? Aren't all secret operations always completely secret, since this is apparently a requirement for 9/11 CTs?
Don't twist what was being said. The OP's claim is that it is a requirement for 9/11 being a covert false flag operation that federal, state, and local governments must have been informed, as well as a wide range of private sector firms and every other country's government. This claim is obviously false and beyond stupid. There is not a single false flag operation in history that required informing half the world beforehand and, indeed, if this claim were true then covert operations in general would be simply impossible.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 25th March 2020 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
So you're implying that many people didn't need to know what they were doing, just follow the orders. I have a problem with that. After the fact, they would notice what they have helped doing, and you can be sure that many of them would speak up out of guilt. Since that hasn't happened, your claim isn't convincing.
I'm implying no such thing. I'm claiming that if, say, 9/11 was a covert operation to get some Jihadi's to crash planes into buildings this does not require informing anyone except the couple of people psy-opping those Jihadi's into doing so. Who is it, exactly, that you think needs to be informed about this?
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:13 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
The point you seem to be missing is that it wasn't 19 jihadists. It was planes never taking off and not even on the flight schedule, missiles, controlled demolition, fake news reports, CGI, and the list goes on. If it were just "the CIA convinced some jihadists" then, yes, you wouldn't need Consuela to cover for you. It's when you invent all sorts of co-ordination such as the garbage that is the no-planers that you start involving scores of scores of people.
Sure, if you gratuitously choose the nuttiest CT out there then it's trivial to debunk because it indeed runs into major issues. None of that was specified in this thread though, it's also quite lazy skepticism going after the lowest-hanging fruit. Which then leads to the question, why not go all the way? I'm sure there's at least one person out there claiming that 9/11 was done by reptilian aliens secretly controlling the government, that's even easier to debunk.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:42 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So to be clear, you're sticking with the claim that the only way for, say, the CIA to covertly get some jihadi's to engage in a terrorist attack on their behalf is to inform the federal government, state and local governments on the East Coast, as well as the private sector from the firms in the WTC to several air line companies?
Nope.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


The OP addresses the many nutjob 911 CT's which involve: fake planes, remote control planes, explosive controlled demotion of three WTC complex buildings, and a variety of variations.

The OP points out that these theories would require far too many people to be carried out in secret. This is a fact.

Got it?

Quote:
Tell me then, I've already referenced Operation Ajax, where the CIA covertly got Islamic extremists to engage in terrorist attacks on their behalf. How could they possibly have done so without informing the "entire" government, private sector and media - since this is apparently a requirement for running such an operation?
Oooh...your grounds for your assertion is a CIA/MI6 operation from 1953?

That's 67 years ago.

The MI6 code name was Operation Boot.

Here's who would have known: The Eisenhower NSC, CIA senior leadership, the House/Senate Intelligence Oversight Committee, the CIA Station Chief in Tehran, and the Iranian mob leaders we paid. And it's safe to assume British and US oil companies were briefed on some level too.

You want to know who knew the CIA helped topple Premier Mossadeq by 1955?



You left out the part where the KGB was playing the other side.

If anyone is really bored you can read the files here:

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

Here's the problem with Operation Ajax, it wasn't a false flag operation. At no point did the US military intervene. It was a covert operation to manipulate an EXISTING SITUATION on the ground in Iran to turn the government in our favor. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just point out that you're off base in using Ajax as proof of anything. In 1996 the Clinton Administration and their NSC missed out on a similar chance to overthrow Saddam Hussein but dragged their feet until it was too late.

I shouldn't have to state the obvious to the oblivious but the Syrian Civil War wasn't something the US started but was happy to help those opposed to Assad which didn't work because the Russians continue to back their man. AT NO POINT HAS THIS BEEN A SECRET.

Quote:
Prove it. Don't open the spoilers below until you've posted your answer to this challenge
Sorry,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
you're the one who thinks or is proposing that Al Qaeda was manipulated by the CIA. Let me guess, you're going to drag out MK Ultra.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:48 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Sure, if you gratuitously choose the nuttiest CT out there then it's trivial to debunk because it indeed runs into major issues. None of that was specified in this thread though, it's also quite lazy skepticism going after the lowest-hanging fruit. Which then leads to the question, why not go all the way? I'm sure there's at least one person out there claiming that 9/11 was done by reptilian aliens secretly controlling the government, that's even easier to debunk.
They're all nutjobs.

The intelligence failures were known to the public who bought Time Magazine's special edition the Monday after 9/11/2001. In the almost two decades since those failings have been fleshed out, and continue to be revealed. Eventually all the names of those in the CIA, FBI, and Clinton/Bush NSC's will be out there for history to judge.

That's how things work.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:55 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Nope.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


The OP addresses the many nutjob 911 CT's which involve: fake planes, remote control planes, explosive controlled demotion of three WTC complex buildings, and a variety of variations.
The OP said nothing of the sort
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Quote:
Sorry,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
you're the one who thinks or is proposing that Al Qaeda was manipulated by the CIA.
I neither think nor proposed anything of the sort. Apologize for making this false claim. After that, either prove your claims or admit you're making claims you can't back up.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
It's not up to others to disprove your claims.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'm implying no such thing. I'm claiming that if, say, 9/11 was a covert operation to get some Jihadi's to crash planes into buildings this does not require informing anyone except the couple of people psy-opping those Jihadi's into doing so. Who is it, exactly, that you think needs to be informed about this?
The DCI and chosen advisors = 6 to 10 people.

The Bush NSC and their select staff = Between 6 to 10 people and staff.

The CIA-DO and their subordinate teams = Unknown but assume 20 officers.

Al Qaeda go-betweens = 2 or 3

By now one of these people would have leaked something to the NY Times.
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Old 25th March 2020, 04:02 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I neither think nor proposed anything of the sort. Apologize for making this false claim. After that, either prove your claims or admit you're making claims you can't back up.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
It's not up to others to disprove your claims.
Nope.

You anticipated it because you, like every CTist ever, refuses to abide by the basic rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you have evidence to the effect that the CIA manipulated 19 Jihadists to pull off 911 the burden of proof is on you.

I won't hold my breath.
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Old 25th March 2020, 04:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The DCI and chosen advisors = 6 to 10 people.

The Bush NSC and their select staff = Between 6 to 10 people and staff.

The CIA-DO and their subordinate teams = Unknown but assume 20 officers.

Al Qaeda go-betweens = 2 or 3

By now one of these people would have leaked something to the NY Times.
If the US intelligence services are so bad that they can't even get a couple dozen operatives to keep their mouths shut then one wonders how they are able to run any covert operations at all.

Of course, history shows your claim of such a terribly leaky intelligence service to be false. Just one example, the CryptoAG operation, shows that the intelligence services actually are able to keep a secret even for decades. So no, your claim that "one of these people would have leaked something to the NY times" holds no ground.
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Old 25th March 2020, 04:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You anticipated it because you, like every CTist ever, refuses to abide by the basic rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I anticipated it because every pseudo-skeptic refuses to abide by the basic rule that the burden of proof is on the claimant.

Quote:
If you have evidence to the effect that the CIA manipulated 19 Jihadists to pull off 911 the burden of proof is on you.
I did not make any claim that the CIA manipulated 19 jihadists to pull of 9/11. You, on the other hand, did claim that the CIA did not do this. Your claim, your burden of proof. It's that simple.

Quote:
I won't hold my breath.
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Old 25th March 2020, 04:13 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The OP said nothing of the sort
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
You must be new here.

Here's the thing, all 911 CT's are delusional. Most have their roots in antisemitism, certainly the early ones did, and all rely on a daisy chain of black-ops teams pulling off not just the attack, but the illusion of the attacks across three different states. Most 911 CTists assert that the "Media is in on it" because their claims receive no credibility outside of crazy town.

The OP was in response to a pair of active threads in which one posted claims that ALL of the video footage, including the live footage, was CGI. And that cruise missiles struck the building, and that the media was co-opted, and that all of the eye witnesses are in fact government agents. The other thread alleges that the Pentagon was blown up by internal charges and that no plane crashed into the building with the proof being that a taxi cab that was hit by a piece of a street lamp was actually staged.

So you tell me how many people these theories would require to pull of successfully.
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Old 25th March 2020, 04:21 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Here's the thing, all 911 CT's are delusional.
Here's the thing, someone who goes around making strong claims about what the CIA did or did not do, failing to back them up and when challenged switches the burden of proof pretending that it's up to others to refute his claims rather than up to him to support them, is the last person I'll take on his word about what is or isn't delusional. Isn't delusional something like making strong claims without being able to back them up?
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:03 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'm implying no such thing. I'm claiming that if, say, 9/11 was a covert operation to get some Jihadi's to crash planes into buildings this does not require informing anyone except the couple of people psy-opping those Jihadi's into doing so. Who is it, exactly, that you think needs to be informed about this?
I must have misunderstood your position because I haven't seen it stated and you seemed to clap to others' silly MIHOP theories.

As a starting point, how about you visit this thread and make your contribution, so I can know what you claim? http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=185004


Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There is not a single false flag operation in history that required informing half the world beforehand and, indeed, if this claim were true then covert operations in general would be simply impossible.
Speaking of that, there is not a single false flag operation in history that involved a mass murder of the committers' own people.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:47 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I must have misunderstood your position because I haven't seen it stated and you seemed to clap to others' silly MIHOP theories.
My position is that just because the nuttier MIHOP's require a ludicrously large conspiracy doesn't mean that MIHOP's in general do so.

Quote:
As a starting point, how about you visit this thread and make your contribution, so I can know what you claim? http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=185004
Not sure what that would add but I've posted there as requested.

Quote:
Speaking of that, there is not a single false flag operation in history that involved a mass murder of the committers' own people.
None that we know of at least. We do know that serious proposals for such were considered (Operation Northwoods) so as a concept it's hardly unthinkable. There are also several terrorist attacks on one's own people for which the probability of them being false flag operations are high (Operation Gladio and the Years of Lead in Italy, as well as terrorist attacks in Belgium during the same period) though I suppose those wouldn't exactly qualify for mass murder.
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Old 25th March 2020, 09:17 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
None that we know of at least. We do know that serious proposals for such were considered (Operation Northwoods) so as a concept it's hardly unthinkable...(blah, blah, blah)
1. Northwoods was one of a long list of white-papers for the JFK NSC's Cuban Special Group.

2. Operations Northwoods was not a CIA plan, it was a Joint Chief's of Staff plan. CIA would have been a part of it but this wasn't one of their babies.

3. Northwoods never left the table because, let's face it, it's a stupid plan.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

4. Northwoods was a reflection of Operation Mongoose. Mongoose was a CIA operation which included all kinds of fun stuff including using Mafia connections in Cuba to attempt operations on the island.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...uring-cold-war

5. Operation Mongoose and Northwoods were a reflection of the Kennedy White House's Pax Americana which included increasing numbers of "Advisors" in South Vietnam, and backing a coup against Diem, which set up the Vietnam War.

I know the CIA didn't make 911 happen because they've just never been that good.
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Old 25th March 2020, 10:37 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I know the CIA didn't make 911 happen because they've just never been that good.
It must be nice going through life just magically "knowing" things without being bothered by such nonsense as evidence or proof. You have a lot more in common with those "nutjob CTists" than you do with skepticism.
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Old 26th March 2020, 05:04 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post



Not sure what that would add but I've posted there as requested.


You basically posted: LOOK GUYS, I KNOW MATH, I AM SO SMART.
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:01 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
In what way was the CIA running Islamic extremists to engage in assassinations and terrorist attacks to overthrow Iran's government the CIA running Islamic extremists?
I'll let you answer that particular question yourself:

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Here's the thing, someone who goes around making strong claims about what the CIA did or did not do, failing to back them up and when challenged switches the burden of proof pretending that it's up to others to refute his claims rather than up to him to support them, is the last person I'll take on his word about what is or isn't delusional. Isn't delusional something like making strong claims without being able to back them up?
Can you back up your claim about the CIA running Islamic extremists in Iran, in 1953?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Because several decades later the documents were made public.
That may have been the first time you heard about it, but it's been public knowledge since at least 1981.



Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post

Don't twist what was being said. The OP's claim is that it is a requirement for 9/11 being a covert false flag operation that federal, state, and local governments must have been informed, as well as a wide range of private sector firms and every other country's government. This claim is obviously false and beyond stupid. There is not a single false flag operation in history that required informing half the world beforehand and, indeed, if this claim were true then covert operations in general would be simply impossible.
Well, exactly. For the kind of false flag operation depicted by CT-ists, this is exactly what would be required. As you say, no such operation could or would be attempted. Therefore, the CT view of 9/11 is simply wrong.
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Old 26th March 2020, 07:05 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Sure, if you gratuitously choose the nuttiest CT out there then it's trivial to debunk because it indeed runs into major issues. None of that was specified in this thread though, it's also quite lazy skepticism going after the lowest-hanging fruit. Which then leads to the question, why not go all the way? I'm sure there's at least one person out there claiming that 9/11 was done by reptilian aliens secretly controlling the government, that's even easier to debunk.
Nuttiest? Hardly not. They are in fact the most common. There is no CTist out there who limits their CT to just the CIA working 19 Jihadists. They always, without fail, add in the kitchen sink. Nobody swaps out Al Qaeda with the CIA and leaves it there.

I've been pushing the Rodan theory in the "how they faked …" thread and Yankee will not address it. Aliens controlling the government is already a well established CT, and still runs wild despite it being a steaming pile.
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Old 26th March 2020, 07:44 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
...
You want to know who knew the CIA helped topple Premier Mossadeq by 1955?


...
Love it!

Now, here our CTish friends (and perhaps us debunkers, too) find themselves in a Catch-22:

They assert that major secret service operations that change history (i.e. have results that everybody knows) can be and have been carried out in total and enduring secrecy, no matter how large or complicated the plot.

To prove that this is possible, a single example would suffice.
But any such example that they and we would know about would not have remained perpetually secret - for if it had, they/we'd not know it!
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