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Old 10th September 2010, 11:56 AM   #41
dudalb
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
see link: http://www.democraticunderground.com...mesg_id=294127

From prior posts:

"Furthermore when the information first started filtering out that Bush knew much more than he was letting on and the horrific information that the intelligence agencies had known about Mihdhar and Hazmi for almost 21 months and did nothing to stop them or this attack, the big push to have a 9/11 Commission investigate the attacks on 9/11 and see why the US intelligence agencies had allowed these attacks to take place, gained momentum."


From another DU poster:

"You are actually claiming the intelligence agencies knew of this attack and did nothing? You are claiming they allowed the attacks to take place. Really? I assume you are aware there is zero evidence this is true. In fact everything I have ever read or watched regarding intelligence foreknowledge indicates they knew something was up, but had little in the way of specifics. If you are claiming this you need to provide proof they had specific foreknowledge."

I can hardly wait."

No I am not claiming that they did nothing, it is much worse than that. They first criminally with held material information from the FBI investigation into the Cole bombing. Then they shut down or blocked all FBI criminal investigations of al Qaeda terrorists found to be inside of the US, even when they knew that a huge al Qaeda attack was going to take place inside of the US.

[edit=LashL]Removed quote of moderated content.[/LashL]

Yawn. Same Old S---.

Last edited by LashL; 12th September 2010 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 10th September 2010, 11:58 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by willhaven View Post
1) 19 crazy religious nuts with a political agenda.
2) 4 airliners.
3) Nearly 3,000 casualties.
4) Lots of structural damage due to airliner impacts and fire.

Why? Blowback. Meddling in the affairs of others can have consequences. Did we deserve it? No. Should we have been wondering why they hate us? Of course not. We should know exactly why they hate us.

If we had a policy of non-intervention and simply humanitarian aid to the middle east, it's unlikely that 9/11 or similar attacks would have happened. At least not with the same severity, frequency and acceptance by some (small number of) Muslims.
We tried "non Intervention" ie, Isolationism in the past. It did'nt work.
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Old 10th September 2010, 12:13 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
see link: http://www.democraticunderground.com...mesg_id=294127

From prior posts:
[snipped looooong boring stuff]
...of the 9/11 Commission a complete fraud.
tl;dr

I did not mean for all of you to present all of your evidence in one awfully long post. It would have been nice if you had just stated: Who did what, how and why on (and before) 9/11? Specifically leaving out all of the reasons why you believe that story. I just wanted to know what your story is!

Can you please restate that in a briefer posting? Browsing trough your tl;dr, it seems you believe it was a group of Arab hijackers, but that some US agencies and persons (who?) either let it happen, or made it happen, and some (other?) agencies helped to cover up. Is that about the drift of it?
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Old 10th September 2010, 03:12 PM   #44
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re Summary of post on what happened on 9/11

The US intelligence agencies, the FBI HQ and the CIA knew when Midhar and Hazmi were found inside of the US on August 22, 2001. that they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans.

These same agencies had been keeping secret since November 2000, the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, planning the Cole bombing with Walid Bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing.

All of the terrorists at that meeting had been photographed by Malaysian intelligence and most identified as long time al Qaeda terrorists, and this information sent to the CIA, including Black and Tenet. The CIA was horrified when Bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing was positively identified on January 4, 2001 from the photograph of him at this Kuala Lumpur meeting, actually planning the Cole bombing with Mihdhar and Hazmi. This clearly meant that the CIA was culpable in the Cole bombing attack.

When FBI Agent Steve Bongardt accidentally found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, on August 28, 2001, and knew they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that the CIA and FBI HQ had been warned about since April 2001, FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi shut down his investigation with the excuse, that the NSA information the Cole bombing investigators would need had not been approved to be shared with FBI criminal investigators. But a request for Dina Corsi had been approved the day before by the NSA, to provide the information from the Kuala Lumpur meeting to Steve Bongardt and his team.

When Bongardt protested and requested that Corsi get a legal ruling from the FBI NSLU, to see if he could take part in an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, he was told by Corsi on August 29, 2001 that NSLU had ruled that he and his team could have no part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. But in the 9/11 Commission report we are told that Sherry Sabol, the NSLU attorney, had ruled that Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.

Corsi emailed Bongardt on August 29, 2001 and said “If at such time information is developed indicating the existence of a substantial Federal crime, that information will be passed over the wall according to procedures."

But not only did Corsi know, as well as the CIA and FBI HQ, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, and they also knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were long time al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings, and that Bin Laden had already been indicted for the east Africa bombings. Since these were crimes, there was no legitimate reason for Corsi, her boss Rod Middleton, and FBI HQ to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

It is clear that Corsi was working under the direction of CIA officer Tom Wilshire, and that Wilshire had been denied twice in July 2001 from getting permission from his CIA managers, Blee, Black and Tenet, to turn the information on Kuala Lumpur over to the FBI Cole bombing investigators. Wilshire had sent email to these same CIA managers with his request on July 23, 2001 indicating that Mihdhar and by association Hazmi would be found at the next al Qaeda attack.

On August 23, 2001, CIA managers Blee, Black and Tenet were notified that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US. It is clear they knew that these terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans. So it is clear that when FBI HQ/CIA shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, many of the people at the CIA and FBI HQ , knew the result would be the murder of thousands of Americas in a huge al Qaeda attack as a direct result of their actions in shutting down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

On September 11, 2001 Khalid al-Mihdhar, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Salem al-Hazmi were on AA 77 that hit the Pentagon. It is also known that 10 tickets for the 9/11 hijackers were purchased with Mihdhar’s credit card. Given the connection between Mihdhar and many of the al Qaeda terrorists who took part in the attacks on 9/11 it is inconceivable that Bongardt and his team could not have prevented the attacks on 9/11 had their investigation not been shut down.

Last edited by paloalto; 10th September 2010 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 10th September 2010, 03:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
So, what happened on 9/11?
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Old 10th September 2010, 03:34 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The US intelligence agencies, the FBI HQ and the CIA knew when Midhar and Hazmi were found inside of the US on August 22, 2001. that they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans.
...
On September 11, 2001 Khalid al-Mihdhar, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Salem al-Hazmi were on AA 77 that hit the Pentagon. It is also known that 10 tickets for the 9/11 hijackers were purchased with Mihdhar’s credit card. Given the connection between Mihdhar and many of the al Qaeda terrorists who took part in the attacks on 9/11 it is inconceivable that Bongardt and his team could not have prevented the attacks on 9/11 had their investigation not been shut down.
Thanks for replying, and boiling your story down.

For clarity, may I ask if the following is a fair representation of your story? You seem to focus very much on those who did not prevent the attack und very little on those who carried them out. So:

You think that Al Quaeda operatives hijacked 4 planes, flew them into 3 buildings and 1 field, caused the destruction of the WTC complex thusly (impacts and fires leading to collapses), and did all this to kill as many Americans as possible to ... further whatever objectives they may have had. So far the story most of us subscribe to, right?

In addition, you believe that senior CIA managers, including Blee, Black and Tenet, obstructed CIA and FBI investigations into past Al Quaeda terror attacks and planning meetings, despite having information that they were probably planning attacks inside the USA. This prevented the arrest and/or closer investigation of two of the 19 hijackers. Had they been apprehended in time, the 9/11 attacks would likely have been prevented.

Correct?
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Old 10th September 2010, 03:37 PM   #47
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4 airplanes were hijacked by terrorists ultimately funded by Al Qaeda. 3 of these crashed into buildings, 2 of which resulted in catastrophic failures, and 1 was deliberately crashed into a field.

Why? Although there most likely were influences caused by certain US policy decisions in the middle east, most of it was due to the fact that Osama bin Laden is the south end of a northbound skunk who should have been drowned at birth.
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Old 10th September 2010, 04:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I think the 9/11 Commission did a great adequate job.
My only mod.
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Old 11th September 2010, 03:01 PM   #49
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Quote:
Thanks for replying, and boiling your story down.

For clarity, may I ask if the following is a fair representation of your story? You seem to focus very much on those who did not prevent the attack und very little on those who carried them out. So:

You think that Al Qaeda operatives hijacked 4 planes, flew them into 3 buildings and 1 field, caused the destruction of the WTC complex thusly (impacts and fires leading to collapses), and did all this to kill as many Americans as possible to ... further whatever objectives they may have had. So far the story most of us subscribe to, right?

In addition, you believe that senior CIA managers, including Blee, Black and Tenet, obstructed CIA and FBI investigations into past Al Qaeda terror attacks and planning meetings, despite having information that they were probably planning attacks inside the USA. This prevented the arrest and/or closer investigation of two of the 19 hijackers. Had they been apprehended in time, the 9/11 attacks would likely have been prevented.

Correct?
Yes you are absolutely correct. There was no real legitimate reason the attacks on 9/11 were not prevented. In fact after putting all of this information together from every single report on 9/11 I could find, I actually came to the conclusion that they did not just let in happen they did everything they could to "MAKE SURE" it would happen. At first I thought the FBI HQ blocked Bongardt's investigation to keep themselves and the CIA officers who had criminally obstructed Bongardt’s investigation out of prison. But what then explains why Corsi sabotaged Robert Fullers investigation for Mihdhar. When Fuller called Corsi and told her he was getting nowhere in his search for Mihdhar even after searching the FBI data base, Choicepoint, and requested permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar's credit card number and use that with the FBI data base, she denied him permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines, she knew this would doom his investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, and it turns out she was right, Fuller had gotten nowhere by the time the attacks on 9/11 took place.

This one fact alone is a complete MONSTER! I can see absolutely no legitimate reason Corsi would deny Fuller permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines in order to get Mihdhar’s credit card number! I can come to no other conclusion other than at that point Corsi, Middleton, Wilshire, FBI HQ and the CIA were doing everything they could to insure that these attacks took place.

If anyone can come up with any other examination for Corsi's action, please feel free to explain these actions here.
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Old 11th September 2010, 03:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
1. terrorists killed pilots
2. terrorists flew planes into buildings
3. flight 93 passengers figured out 911 and stopped terrorists
Too simple... we need to complicate this beyond the ridiculous...
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Old 11th September 2010, 03:12 PM   #51
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Never thought it would feel refreshing hearing some LIHOP arguments, however stupid they are.
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Old 11th September 2010, 04:17 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
Yes you are absolutely correct. There was no real legitimate reason the attacks on 9/11 were not prevented. In fact after putting all of this information together from every single report on 9/11 I could find, I actually came to the conclusion that they did not just let in happen they did everything they could to "MAKE SURE" it would happen. At first I thought the FBI HQ blocked Bongardt's investigation to keep themselves and the CIA officers who had criminally obstructed Bongardt’s investigation out of prison. But what then explains why Corsi sabotaged Robert Fullers investigation for Mihdhar. When Fuller called Corsi and told her he was getting nowhere in his search for Mihdhar even after searching the FBI data base, Choicepoint, and requested permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar's credit card number and use that with the FBI data base, she denied him permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines, she knew this would doom his investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, and it turns out she was right, Fuller had gotten nowhere by the time the attacks on 9/11 took place.

This one fact alone is a complete MONSTER! I can see absolutely no legitimate reason Corsi would deny Fuller permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines in order to get Mihdhar’s credit card number! I can come to no other conclusion other than at that point Corsi, Middleton, Wilshire, FBI HQ and the CIA were doing everything they could to insure that these attacks took place.

If anyone can come up with any other examination for Corsi's action, please feel free to explain these actions here.
Ok, cool! Thanks for your detailed story!

@ Everybody: Please be respectful to everyone who relates his or her working hypothesis of 9/11. If you want to discuss any claims and issues brought up here, please do so in an appropriate other thread. I feel that ridiculing any contribution might inhibit further contributions.

I really only want to get a clear picture of what you guys and gals have as your baseline when I discuss individual topics.

I wish jammonius, Bill Smith, RedIbis, bio, MirageMemories, christopher7 and others would post their stories, too. If they do, then all others please reign in your urge to do the usual slamming!
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Old 11th September 2010, 04:25 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by sabretooth47 View Post
tl:dr

You also failed Reading Comprehension 101.

The OP question is asking what you believe happened on 9/11, not before or after.

You also failed Reading Comprehension 101.

It asks what happened and "WHY?"

It also says "Rule 1: No discussion, please!"
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Old 11th September 2010, 04:48 PM   #54
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JihadJane, you said earlier "I don't know".
That's fair. In a sense, nobody knows

But don't you have a working hypothesis? A most likely scenario? A frontrunner? I find it hard to believe that anybody would remain clueless and totally undecided 9 years after!
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Old 12th September 2010, 05:41 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
4 planes were holograms

Super nanothermite was planted in WTC 1 & 2 when it was built.

WTC-7 was rigged to explode when the.....


Oh, I can't even type this stuff as a joke. It's so absurd it makes my brain hurt.



I agree with Oystein
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I was thinking of posting nasty grams here yesterday to the loonies, but had to clean my fingernails, which was more important.
Speaking of loonies, 19 of them flew airplanes into buildings that day.
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Old 12th September 2010, 05:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas View Post
I woke up about 11:00AM, had some lunch, and went to teach a few classes. That evening, I probably had some beer, but I can't say for sure.
.
My sister called to tell me a light plane had flown into one of the WTC towers.
Not outside my experience, as we had seen the hole left in the Empire State building the day after the B-25 flew into it. My aunt lived just blocks from there.
Then the other planes got involved.
After the collapses, took a drive to get some air, and the entire town was shut down.
Went home.
Despaired (and still do) about the stupidities religions create.
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Old 15th September 2010, 06:18 PM   #57
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RE: How did I get to my theory on 9/11.

I actually spent time a huge amount of time putting the account of 9/11 back together again. It took several years using every single government investigation and report I could find, plus other documents I could confirm as correct, for example, Bob Woodward’s book States of Denial, which describes the urgent meeting in the White House between Blee, Black, Tenet, and Rice and Clarke, where Tenet tells Rice a huge al Qaeda attack will take place shortly inside of the US and kill thousands of Americans, Lawrence Wright's book Looming Tower on FBI Agent Ali Soufan, and the documents actually entered into the Moussaoui trial.

Since much of the information had been left out or deliberately obscured, I had to build very detailed times lines and then figure out who knew what, when they knew it, where did they get this information and did they act like a prudent person would act, once they had this information in order to prevent the attacks on 9/11 or did they intentionally hide the information they had even though they knew it might lead to FBI criminal investigators being unable to prevent the attacks on 9/11.

When documents were in conflict with one another, I had to figure out who or what document was telling the truth. At first this was very hard, but as I worked through the conflicting accounts I found that it became easier to figure out the real account. I used several techniques to do this.

I used what is called consistency to figure out which account matched information that was already available in the rest of the account on 9/11, and almost all of that information had not differed at all even in different accounts of 9/11. Since as this process went on I got more and more information, it was easier to see what information was consistent with what I already had and what information was not consistent with what was already available.

I also determined which account had the most credible information, and in general it was the account that actually had the most detail instead of the account where no one could remember what was said. I also lined up what people actually said with what government documents showed that they actually knew.

For example, the account of the meeting between FBI Agent Dina Corsi and attorney Sherry Sabol, in the DOJ IG report it said no one could remember what took place that this meeting. (NOTE: discovering that the DOJ IG report had intentionally modified a portion of their report to hide Corsi's criminal culpability in allowing the attacks on 9/11 to take place was perhaps understandable but disappointing since in general the DOJ IG report had the most complete picture of what had taken place). Corsi in her email to Liguori and Bongardt says Sabol ruled Bongardt could have nothing to do with any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. But on page 538 of 9/11 Commission report it says, in testimony given to the DOJ IG investigators on November 7, 2002, Sabol says she told Corsi that Bongardt could take part in any investigation of Midhar since the NSA information had no connection to any FISA warrant. Now we know when one testifies to DOJ IG investigators this testimony is written down much like any other legal proceeding.

The 9/11 Commission report accurately put this written account in the 9/11 Commission report but buried it at the back of the report in the foot notes, which shows that even though they had the correct information, they were deliberately burying this information so no one could go back and see the entire picture. The DOJ IG report actually says no one can remember what went on at this meeting when it is clear that was this testimony was not only written down, but was already part of the final the 9/11 Commission report.

Since the 9/11 Commission report came out before the DOJ IG report, it is clear that the DOJ IG inspector could have just read the 9/11 Commission report to know that he was deliberately putting in his report, information that was patently wrong, this in fact is a crime. How stupid does the DOJ IG think the American people were when his account differs from an account that is already in the public domain? Did the DOJ IG think no one would go back to see if parts of his report had been deliberately fabricated and were contrary to information that was already available.

HOW GOD DAMN DUMB CAN YOU GET!

Another example, in the letter to Liguori, Corsi says that the information about Mihdhar and Hazmi cannot be given to FBI criminal investigators because it has not been approved by the NSA to be sent to these investigators. This is fine except for the fact that the written NSA approval is now available in the Moussaoui trail defense exhibit documents and says that this approval was actually granted on August 27, 2001, two days before Corsi tells Liguori and Bongardt that Bongardt cannot have this information because she does not have the NSA approval.

Corsi then really does herself no favors when she emailed Bongardt on August 29, 2001 and said “If at such time information is developed indicating the existence of a substantial Federal crime, that information will be passed over the wall according to procedures."

But not only did Corsi know, she admits this right on page 302 of the DOJ IG report, but the CIA and FBI HQ also knew, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing. They also knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were long time al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings, and that Bin Laden had already been indicted for the east Africa bombings. Since these were horrific and heinous crimes, there was absolutely no legitimate or legal reason Corsi, her boss Rod Middleton, the CIA officer directing Corsi's obstruction of the Cole bombing investigation, Tom Wilshire, the FBI HQ and the CIA to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. The DOJ IG report actually came to this same conclusion.

In the end I found much to my surprise that the entire story is actually all there.

It was a huge, long, and difficult process to put it all back together again, so in the end the American people could see the real and complete account of what actually took place on 9/11, an account that is sadly significantly different then what they got from the 9/11 Commission report and the main stream news media, even other books on 9/11 that had not gone to the time and effort to aggregate all of the known official government accounts of 9/11, even though they were available and in the public domain.

There is in fact at least one book with the entire account of 9/11 already on the internet.

Last edited by paloalto; 15th September 2010 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 15th September 2010, 06:22 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
HOW GOD DAM DUMB CAN YOU GET!
You misspelled "DAMN".
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Old 15th September 2010, 06:26 PM   #59
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Sorry about that, now fixed, thanks for the spell check. If that is all I misspelled it is a red letter day since I am probably the world’s worst speller.

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Old 16th September 2010, 12:47 AM   #60
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Hey Paloalto,

thanks for pushing me thread!
I think many people might miss your story, when you put it in the "Roll call", because they might not be interested in the roll call (any longer).

Why don't you open a new thread, give it a crisp title, and write an inviting opening post (OP)?
That way, you would encourage actual discussion,. which is strongly discourage in my thread
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Old 16th September 2010, 01:00 AM   #61
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Aircraft were hijacked by Arab terrorists and crashed into three buildings, causing significant damage to each. WTC1 and WTC2 were sufficiently weakened by a combination of impact damage and unchecked fire such as to cause catastophic structural failure, which in turn led to major damage to surrounding buildings. Many, many people died.

And that's it. No space rays, no CD, no "pull it".
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Old 19th September 2010, 12:05 PM   #62
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Thanks for the idea, when I get time I will start a new post. It is clear that knowing what took place prior to the attacks on 9/11 that had actually allowed these attacks to take place is important to the American people. What is amazing even to me is that the information is all there, the entire account, in every bitter detail, in US official documents and web sites from the many US government investigations of the attacks on 9/11, although it was like putting back together a huge vase that had fallen down and broken into a thousand pieces.

And what made it even harder at first was the fact that almost all of the government reports, it looks like intentionally, left out important details in critical places so it would be very hard for someone reading just that one report to ever see what had taken place.

You had to aggregate the information from all of these reports and then fill in the missing parts of one report with information from the other reports. Doing this over several thousand pages of government reports was in fact very hard at first. How did you know in fact what was missing and when reports differed, you had to try and figure out what report was correct and what report was wrong.
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Old 26th September 2010, 06:15 PM   #63
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RE: What happened on 9/11 and why?

What happened on 9/11 and why?

This entire account in every bitter detail taken from only US official documents and/or sources that could be corroborated as US official sources or from US government officials themselves is now down in one place, see the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Prior-Knowledg...owViewpoints=1
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Old 26th September 2010, 11:29 PM   #64
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Like I said...

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Hey Paloalto,

thanks for pushing me thread!
I think many people might miss your story, when you put it in the "Roll call", because they might not be interested in the roll call (any longer).

Why don't you open a new thread, give it a crisp title, and write an inviting opening post (OP)?
That way, you would encourage actual discussion,. which is strongly discourage in my thread
You act just like CIA/FBI: You have the information, but, out of lazyness or incompetence, chose not to use it to fullest effect
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Old 27th September 2010, 12:01 AM   #65
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RE: Starting a new thread

Hold on, I will start a new thread, but when I get time next week.
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Old 29th September 2010, 07:28 AM   #66
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I agree with Oystein's account mostly, but I'd like to point out some points of disagreement.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I am certain, but allow residual doubt, that flight 93 crashed because its passengers resisted and violently iterferred, thus making the hijacker-pilot lose control and crash. No shoot-down to be sure.
Sabretooth already refined the part about the pilot losing control, and I agree with him that that was not the case. I'd like to point out that I don't have doubts about the passengers revolt and that that's the why of the pilot's maneuvers.

I also have to add that I am uncertain as for who exactly was the pilot of UA93, as it seems that Saeed al-Ghamdi also had piloting skills, seemed to be in the cabin and his name was mentioned in the CVR transcript. But that's a minor detail.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I am convinced, and have no doubt, that the hijackings caught FAA and the military units that were on alert to defend the airspace by surprise, that they did everything they could to handle the situation, but were unable to do anything about the 4 planes. The main reasons for this inability were: Too little time; no contingency plans for such situations, resources too thinly spread; inadequate sharing of information between civilian and military agencies due to inadequate or incompatible technology.
Rather than inadequate or incompatible technology, I believe that the inadequate sharing of information was due to the lack of contingency plans or exercises for such a situation. I don't think that technology, or lack thereof, played a significant role in information sharing. But then I might lack some information on that respect, so I'm open to refutation.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I do not believe that anyone in these agencies knew of the plan and consciously decided not to interfere. I allow for the remote possibility that there are nefarious elements in the agencies who might be so inclined.
While I share Oystein's belief that that was not the case, I don't think the opposite possibility is that remote. In other words, my belief is feeble in that respect.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I am certain that the hijackers were a group of 19 or 20 Arabs, mostly from Saudi-Arabia, who were recruited by Al Quaeda, had the blessing of OBL. Among their leaders were KSM and Mohammed Atta. I admit that there is a little wiggle room for doubt, as KSM was abducted in secrecy and tortured. I want to take information presented by secret services with a good grain of salt.
I am certain that there were 19 Muslim hijackers in action that day. I am not certain about the Al Qaeda link (mostly because it's a part that doesn't raise my interest enough as to make an assessment on the credibility of the sources saying so), but I generally believe it to be the case. I share Oystein's concerns on the declarations of KSM.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I am satisfied with the forensic investigations. They were humongous tasks, had do dive deep into unknown territories, and by and large the efforts were carried out honestly, competently and with sufficient thoroughness. With hindsight, some minor weaknesses may be lamented, such as the failure to investigate WTC7 with the same diligence as WTC1 and 2 were. It is my understanding that the debris of the twin towers was investigated more thoroughly, which undoubtfully is due to its containing so many human remains. There is no foul play.
I have to add the note that the investigations were not directed to determine guilt, but to take corrective actions where needed, to prevent such a disaster in future, and I'm very satisfied with the results.

I also have some concerns about the haste with the recycling, which prevented the investigation from being more thorough. If anything, the worst suspicion it raises on me is the attempt to cover up the asbestos content in some elements, and I don't believe that suspicion to hold any water anyway.

As for WTC7, I also recognize that the pieces were not marked as were the ones from WTC1 and WTC2, therefore making their association with location and specific collapse features nearly impossible. I leave room to consider Charlie Thornton's statements that the NIST report whitewashed poor design or construction of either the towers or WTC7, but I suspect more on the latter.

I fully agree with everything not explicitly clarified here.
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Old 29th September 2010, 06:12 PM   #67
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I was based at NAS Whidbey Island on the Morning of Sept 11th.

My Brother Steven was with CDI demolitions of Ohio ten blocks from the WTC on that day.

I believe the events of that day are as was detiled in the 9/11 commission.

I believe this not only from the external volumes of information but from my own experiance in aircraft design, non-destructive inspection, metallurgy and history. I understand the nature of radical islam, the history of radical islam and the history of Osama Bin Laden and his movement. To me, they are an enemy equal to the Japanese in the Pacific War....ruthless, brutal and heartless.

I believe, and please don't be upset with me saying so, that Al Queda carried out the most masterful and artfull military assault in history. More audacious and bold than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Al Queda exploited America's weakness, which had been growing with the aid of the liberal, leftist Democrat movement since the end of Vietnam. They exploited this weakness with great discipline and military precission.

In Al Queda and radical fascist Islam, we face an enemy on par in zeal to the Japanese. To defeat him, we must both respect him and hate him with blood thursty intent, otherwise we face defeat.

To think otherwise, to find excuses, make up myths and support conspiracy theories to only advance an agenda hurtfull and destructive to the safety and survival of the United States is to be a partner in treason.
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Old 30th September 2010, 06:37 AM   #68
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The twooth fairy flew a plane over the Pentagon.
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Old 30th September 2010, 07:29 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by danrush View Post
I was based at NAS Whidbey Island on the Morning of Sept 11th.

My Brother Steven was with CDI demolitions of Ohio ten blocks from the WTC on that day.

I believe the events of that day are as was detiled in the 9/11 commission.

I believe this not only from the external volumes of information but from my own experiance in aircraft design, non-destructive inspection, metallurgy and history. I understand the nature of radical islam, the history of radical islam and the history of Osama Bin Laden and his movement. To me, they are an enemy equal to the Japanese in the Pacific War....ruthless, brutal and heartless.

I believe, and please don't be upset with me saying so, that Al Queda carried out the most masterful and artfull military assault in history. More audacious and bold than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Al Queda exploited America's weakness, which had been growing with the aid of the liberal, leftist Democrat movement since the end of Vietnam. They exploited this weakness with great discipline and military precission.

In Al Queda and radical fascist Islam, we face an enemy on par in zeal to the Japanese. To defeat him, we must both respect him and hate him with blood thursty intent, otherwise we face defeat.

To think otherwise, to find excuses, make up myths and support conspiracy theories to only advance an agenda hurtfull and destructive to the safety and survival of the United States is to be a partner in treason.
Great post!
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Old 3rd October 2010, 01:33 PM   #70
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Hi, I think the Islamic insurgency planned and executed the attack in an attempt to get the USA to retreat back into isolationist polices and thus open the door so they could wage war against the Islamic regimes supported by the USA. Israel is a red herring they use to recruit. They do not give a hoot about our way of life other then where they believe it is being adopted inside countries they consider to be Islamic.
Whether or not they harbor ambition toward global conquest remains to be seen. (no top leader of the Insurgency has ever stated this as a goal Wacko Islamics living in the West sometimes voice this rhetoric but they have no connection. (otherwise they would be locked up) It's just how they sell their books and videos.
Damage from impacts and fires destroyed the buildings. There was no warning that could have prevented the attacks once the perpetrators were within the USA.
GW Bush had an adgenda prior to 9-11-2001 that did not include a Global War or any military action outside the USA. But like all of us he had to learn "Life is all the things you end up doing when you are really trying to do something else"
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Old 6th October 2010, 08:45 AM   #71
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Hijackers flew planes into buildings.
Building collapsed, no controlled demolition.
Building 7 collapsed because of fires.
Plane wasn't intercepted.
Sit on the fence about "they let it happen" purely through having not looked into it in depth yet.
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Old 6th October 2010, 09:40 AM   #72
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Osama bin Laden is the leader of al-Qaeda, a loose affiliation of people of Arab origin who believe that American influence in the Middle East is oppressive and unjust, and favour armed resistance to attempt to force the USA to withdraw from the region entirely. He approved an operation masterminded by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to carry out multiple attacks on the USA by hijacking airliners, taking control of them and deliberately crashing them into prominent public buildings.

The operation was led by Mohammed Atta, and an initial list was pared down to three main targets: the World Trade Centre, symbolising American financial power; the Pentagon, symbolising American military power; and the Capitol, symbolising American political power. Two groups were detailed to attack the twin towers of the WTC, and one each the Pentagon and Capitol. Although US intelligence agencies received some warning of the attacks, their lack of specificity combined with inter-service rivalries and a lack of focus on counter-terrorism by the Bush administration to result in an absence of effective prevention. The four al-Qaeda groups successfully took control of four airliners in succession, and a defence system reduced to only four fighters at immediate readiness controlled by a military radar system focused on offshore threats was so hampered by equipment and operational procedures that no interception, even if technically possible, was ever operationally feasible.

Three of the airliners struck their targets, WTC1 and 2 and the Pentagon. The passengers aboard the fourth mounted an attack on the cockpit while the airliner was still far from the Capitol, and this group of hijackers, fearing that the passengers would eventually regain control, chose to crash the airliner deliberately rather than allow them to storm the cockpit. This may have been exascerbated by the fact that this group comprised only four, rather than five, hijackers, leaving them with less manpower with which to restrain the passengers.

Damage to the Pentagon resulted in the collapse of a large section of the building shortly after the airliner impact. At the WTC, jet fuel from the airliners acted as an accelerant to large unfought fires which progressively weakened and distorted the structure of WTC1 and WTC2 until both buildings collapsed, seriously damaging all the nearby buildings and setting WTC7 on fire. Later in the day, WTC7 also collapsed as a result of structural damage and distortion caused primarily by unfought fires.

Following the attacks, the largest operation in FBI history succeeded in determining the identities, movements and motivations of the attackers in great detail; however, the Bush administration was initially unwilling to allow a public investigation into the response to the attacks, fearing accusations of incompetence might be substantiated by the results of such an investigation. After more than a year, however, they were pressured into allowing an investigation to be carried out, which, despite underfunding and some difficulties with obtaining honest testimony - possibly again due to fears of accusations of incompetence - was able to compile a thorough and reasonably accurate account of the planning, execution, and response to, the attacks. A small number of individuals refuse to accept even the gross details of this account, but when analysed more closely this refusal is found inevitably to be based on prejudice, misinformation, desire for personal gain or notoriety, or a combination of the three.

Dave
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Old 6th October 2010, 09:49 AM   #73
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The wee people conspiracy theory.

Since noone has been able to prove it wasn't leprechauns, and since noone will even discuss the possibility of leprechauns, which not only proves there is a massive cover up in play but also that it absolutely must have been leprechauns!

When are you all going to accept the "T"ruth about the leprechauns causing 911??? No doubt you've all been indoctrinated with Lucky Charm commercials and wish to remain alseep and enslaved because you can't even conceive that leprechauns would ever do you wrong...

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Old 6th October 2010, 10:21 AM   #74
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Excellent summary, Dave Rogers! Worthy of a nomination.

I wish those here that are unconvinced of Dave's version would have both the courage and the clarity of thought to express their beliefs comprehensively.
I am talking about Derek Johnson of course, and Tony Szamboti, RedIbis, Childlike Empress, Femr2, MirageMemories, Java Man and some others. I really would love to hear their story, as I don't know it, and feel they would help the overall discussion along greatly if we were able to judge their individual claims, assertions, assumptions and ideas against the background of a guiding theory.
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Old 6th October 2010, 02:01 PM   #75
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Dave Rogers,

Well said. Should we ever meet I shall purchase you a beer/Coke/water/tea/vanilla non-fat caffeine-free frapuchino delux with free scone/whatever you like to drink.
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Old 6th October 2010, 02:43 PM   #76
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Lots of things happened on 9/11. For instance:
...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11

Mod WarningSnipped for compliance with Rule 4. Please do not post lengthy tracts from other sources; instead, just post a short snippet and a link to source for the complete article/tract/etc.
Posted By:LashL
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Old 6th October 2010, 02:45 PM   #77
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I don't know why though.
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Old 8th October 2010, 01:58 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Excellent summary, Dave Rogers! Worthy of a nomination.

I wish those here that are unconvinced of Dave's version would have both the courage and the clarity of thought to express their beliefs comprehensively.
I am talking about Derek Johnson of course, and Tony Szamboti, RedIbis, Childlike Empress, Femr2, MirageMemories, Java Man and some others. I really would love to hear their story, as I don't know it, and feel they would help the overall discussion along greatly if we were able to judge their individual claims, assertions, assumptions and ideas against the background of a guiding theory.
Their silence is deafening. It seems to me that they only have an idea of what did NOT happen, instead of what DID happen.
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Old 8th October 2010, 02:58 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I missed your theory as to what did happen. Could you please link it for me

Thanks in advance.
* Dragonrock fails to hold his breath.
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Old 8th October 2010, 03:12 PM   #80
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Mod WarningSeveral posts have been moved to AAH for being off-topic; please make sure you posts address the OP.
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