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Old 27th February 2020, 08:00 AM   #121
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not afraid of it at all. I've never expressed fear once in this thread.

Mead and you have gone out of your way to say "don't believe what you hear, believe me when I interpret what he actually means"
But this isn't even ultimately a question of what he means. It's a question of what he will do. And you're claiming he may do something incredibly extreme. But it's incredible in the sense that it's not credible. It's not gonna happen.

Quote:
Of course it will fail. I honestly haven't seen people denying that but I've seen a great many say that it wouldn't be out of Trump's norm to see him try.
But it is out of Trump's norm to try something like a coup. Way outside his norm. I mean, FFS, look how long it took him to get rid of Comey and Sessions.

Quote:
Only you and and Mead seem to repetitiously claim that he wouldn't act in that fashion (well, maybe theprestige is mixed in there somewhere too), which would be in contrast to his entire presidency.
You have that backwards. What you're claiming is what would be in contrast to his entire presidency. You can only believe otherwise if you take the anti-Trump hyperbole as if it was literally true, but it never has been. You don't like how Trump has used his executive power, but he's done basically nothing to expand it.

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The burden of evidence is on you guys
Backwards again. You're making an extraordinary claim. That requires extraordinary evidence. And the evidence you've got so far is just plain weak.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:03 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It's weird that you keep trying to map normal human behavior onto Trump.
So this is all just a giant special pleading. Got it.

The funny thing is, when his presidency is over, a lot of people here are going to act like doomsday cultists when the predicted apocalypse date passes without fanfare. They'll conclude that it was their brave resistance that prevented Trump from doing all the terrible things they predicted he would do.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:17 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But this isn't even ultimately a question of what he means. It's a question of what he will do. And you're claiming he may do something incredibly extreme. But it's incredible in the sense that it's not credible. It's not gonna happen.
You've made this claim but the evidence is still in contrast to what you're saying. He does extreme **** all of the time. Saying SCOTUS members should recuse themselves, claiming bias from judges because of their heritage, degrading jurors, and using his political office for any ******* reason he wants. That's extreme behavior, you just don't care, but sadly that doesn't change the facts.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But it is out of Trump's norm to try something like a coup. Way outside his norm. I mean, FFS, look how long it took him to get rid of Comey and Sessions.
No, it's not. He purposefully, and willfully went to another country to request an investigation knowing that it would sway the electoral process by creating a bias against Biden in international news. Who gives a flying **** how long it took him to get rid of Comey and Sessions? They didn't do anything wrong. Why even bother mentioning them?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have that backwards.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What you're claiming is what would be in contrast to his entire presidency. You can only believe otherwise if you take the anti-Trump hyperbole as if it was literally true, but it never has been. You don't like how Trump has used his executive power, but he's done basically nothing to expand it.
The hell he hasn't. He's using the AG as his personal prosecution and propaganda machine. The ******* Federal Judges are calling a special meeting because of it. Something that hasn't been done because of POTUS interference in cases ever. Continue to make excuses, but don't just make random **** up. He expands his executive power and influence every possible chance he gets. You might say he hasn't created himself any new powers, but he's using his current power in ways that no other POTUS has, and not for good. I'm sure you're going to try and say "I said expand, you're admitting he didn't expand, the powers have been there." Yes, you're technically right, have a cookie. The phrase, "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should" exists for a reason.

ETA: I realized this phrase was tough to follow. The central point is, he has expanded his powers by using them in ways no other POTUS has ever used them before. While he might have granted himself new powers, in my opinion he's expanding them via testing the limits of what he can do it on several fronts (immigration being at the top).

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Backwards again. You're making an extraordinary claim. That requires extraordinary evidence. And the evidence you've got so far is just plain weak.
No, I'm not. You're gutter dwelling excuses for his behavior are the only weak aspect of our conversation. Your perpetual excuse making, and denial of Trump's behavior is what's just plain weak. Your dismissal of his behavior is what's just plain weak.

ETA:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this is all just a giant special pleading. Got it.

The funny thing is, when his presidency is over, a lot of people here are going to act like doomsday cultists when the predicted apocalypse date passes without fanfare. They'll conclude that it was their brave resistance that prevented Trump from doing all the terrible things they predicted he would do.
I've never actually claimed he would do it. I've only claimed that it wouldn't be out of his norm, or strange for him to try it.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:21 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this is all just a giant special pleading. Got it.
How is it "special pleading" to attempt to predict a person's behavior based on their past behavior?

Quote:
The funny thing is, when his presidency is over, a lot of people here are going to act like doomsday cultists when the predicted apocalypse date passes without fanfare. They'll conclude that it was their brave resistance that prevented Trump from doing all the terrible things they predicted he would do.
Cool. But could we just stick to the arguments actually being made here?
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:23 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
As things now stand, it seems more likely that the outbreak will cost Trump the Presidency.

Americans might be happy to see Chaos in Washington ... but not when they need their government to protect them.

Yup. This is the one thing Donald Trump isn't going to be able to lie his way out of.

He and his appointed minions are already looking like uninformed idiots from the press conference last night.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:23 AM   #126
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No worries.

.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:24 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Yup. This is the one thing Donald Trump isn't going to be able to lie his way out of.

He and his appointed minions are already looking like uninformed idiots from the press conference last night.
I didn't see it, do you have a link by chance?
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:25 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Yup. This is the one thing Donald Trump isn't going to be able to lie his way out of.
He's established a post-facts world, he doesn't have to lie anymore.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:52 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I didn't see it, do you have a link by chance?
Here's a transcript. (one pop-up)
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts...avirus-updates
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:02 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You've made this claim but the evidence is still in contrast to what you're saying. He does extreme **** all of the time.
No. He has done nothing even remotely this extreme.

Quote:
Saying SCOTUS members should recuse themselves, claiming bias from judges because of their heritage, degrading jurors, and using his political office for any ******* reason he wants. That's extreme behavior, you just don't care, but sadly that doesn't change the facts.
No. He talks **** all the time. But he doesn't DO that much.

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No, it's not. He purposefully, and willfully went to another country to request an investigation knowing that it would sway the electoral process by creating a bias against Biden in international news.
Once again, that's not even remotely comparable.

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Who gives a flying **** how long it took him to get rid of Comey and Sessions? They didn't do anything wrong. Why even bother mentioning them?
Because it shows he's not actually as impulsive as you claim.

And yes, actually, Comey done ****** up big time. Have you not seen the IG report?

Quote:
The hell he hasn't. He's using the AG as his personal prosecution and propaganda machine.
Name me one person Trump is responsible for prosecuting.

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The ******* Federal Judges are calling a special meeting because of it.
No. The Federal Judges Association called a special meeting. But the Federal Judges Association is an independent group, it isn't actually part of the judiciary. And that "emergency meeting" was postponed indefinitely, likely because this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.

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You might say he hasn't created himself any new powers, but he's using his current power in ways that no other POTUS has
This is frequently overstated, but for the sake of argument let's accept it. What would that mean? We can expect him to continue to use existing powers in new ways, and to continue to not create new powers.

Can the president use existing powers to not hold an election, or invalidate its results, or stay in office past the end of his tenure? No, he cannot. Novel applications of existing powers cannot suffice to accomplish any of that.

Quote:
The phrase, "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should" exists for a reason.
Which is relevant to the argument that Trump may do bad things. But it's not relevant to the argument that Trump might try to launch a coup.

Quote:
I've never actually claimed he would do it. I've only claimed that it wouldn't be out of his norm, or strange for him to try it.
Of course. Got to have an excuse for when nothing happens.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:19 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course. Got to have an excuse for when nothing happens.
It's not an excuse, it's the ******* truth. Unless you can prove me wrong about that, but you won't.

As to the rest, I'm just straight up not going to argue with you. It won't go anywhere because neither of us are going to change each others mind.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:24 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's not an excuse, it's the ******* truth. Unless you can prove me wrong about that, but you won't.
You've formulated your position so that it's unfalsifiable. So yes, I cannot prove you wrong. That's not actually a point in your favor.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:33 AM   #133
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Aren't you the one who should prove your claim that nothing happens?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:34 AM   #134
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This reminds me of a coworker a year or so ago who was adamant that the wall trump was talking about was a metaphor not some real physical wall because that would be stupid, expensive and ineffective.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:36 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
As things now stand, it seems more likely that the outbreak will cost Trump the Presidency.

I'm not so sure. The outbreak of stupid never did. It got him elected.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:37 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Aren't you the one who should prove your claim that nothing happens?!
My claim will be proven or disproven come January 2021 or January 2025.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:37 AM   #137
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I'm betting the Democrats will see an opportunity for martial law and mass quarantine before the president does. If this thing goes full Outbreak on us, they'll be cursing Trump in the streets* for not taking more drastic steps sooner to curb the spread.

---
*"Which is different from today how?"
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:37 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This reminds me of a coworker a year or so ago who was adamant that the wall trump was talking about was a metaphor not some real physical wall because that would be stupid, expensive and ineffective.

Not bad! That's also how you argue for religion nowadays!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:39 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
My claim will be proven or disproven come January 2021 or January 2025.

Yes, both you and Nostradamus ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:39 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Yup. This is the one thing Donald Trump isn't going to be able to lie his way out of.

He and his appointed minions are already looking like uninformed idiots from the press conference last night.
Aside from the fawning over how great our reaction has been so far I didn't find it that bad. Things aren't that bad as of now, it may get worse, maybe even much worse and we should be prepared. Businesses and schools should look at their disaster preparedness plans.
They will spend as much as is necessary.
Maybe it was a little too rosy but in my opinion better than causing a panic.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:40 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Aren't you the one who should prove your claim that nothing happens?!
At least it's a testable claim, unlike plague311's claim that something or nothing will happen.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:43 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm betting the Democrats will see an opportunity for martial law and mass quarantine before the president does.
Based on what?
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:43 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm betting the Democrats will see an opportunity for martial law and mass quarantine before the president does. If this thing goes full Outbreak on us, they'll be cursing Trump in the streets* for not taking more drastic steps sooner to curb the spread.

---
*"Which is different from today how?"

Well, this seems pretty drastic:
Trump defends huge cuts to the CDC’s budget by saying the government can hire more doctors ‘when we need them’ during crises
(Business Insider, Feb. 27, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:45 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Maybe it was a little too rosy but in my opinion better than causing a panic.
Perhaps one could just be honest, and paint a true\clear picture of what is happening, and the steps to avoid making it worse? I don't know, I'm a sucker for the truth I guess.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:46 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
At least it's a testable claim, unlike plague311's claim that something or nothing will happen.
Which, of course, isn't even in the ballpark of what I said. I said I haven't made a claim that Trump will or will not battle removal. I have merely said that if he did, it wouldn't be surprising to me or atypical for Trump.

I even said that specifically. Why do you feel the need to strawman my argument?
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:51 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Aside from the fawning over how great our reaction has been so far I didn't find it that bad. Things aren't that bad as of now, it may get worse, maybe even much worse and we should be prepared. Businesses and schools should look at their disaster preparedness plans.
They will spend as much as is necessary.
Maybe it was a little too rosy but in my opinion better than causing a panic.
The Trump administration has been cutting funding to the very agency responsible for handling these types of outbreaks. And now he's going on television and assuring everyone that the problem will just go away.

I'm not sure anyone is calling for an all-out panic, but concern that this administration isn't prepared to handle this situation effectively is certainly warranted.

Do you disagree?
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Which, of course, isn't even in the ballpark of what I said. I said I haven't made a claim that Trump will or will not battle removal.
That's his point. If you had made such a claim, it would be testable.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:54 AM   #148
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Trump won't need the virus to try to remain in office if defeated. He'll just claim massive fraud and use the courts. Probably starting well before the election.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:00 AM   #149
theprestige
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Which, of course, isn't even in the ballpark of what I said. I said I haven't made a claim that Trump will or will not battle removal. I have merely said that if he did, it wouldn't be surprising to me or atypical for Trump.
I think it would be extremely atypical for Trump to battle removal. More typical would be for him to bluster a lot, comply with removal, and then spin the whole thing somehow as "winning" in his post-fact world.

Quote:
I even said that specifically. Why do you feel the need to strawman my argument?
My apologies. I thought it was a fair assessment of your position. To be clear: You're *not* predicting that Trump will battle removal. Is that correct?
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:01 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's his point. If you had made such a claim, it would be testable.
I didn't know that was a requirement or even relevant, but ok. Who cares?

Here are 7 internet points. I expect you guys to share them.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:02 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump won't need the virus to try to remain in office if defeated. He'll just claim massive fraud and use the courts. Probably starting well before the election.
Is that your prediction?
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:04 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it would be extremely atypical for Trump to battle removal. More typical would be for him to bluster a lot, comply with removal, and then spin the whole thing somehow as "winning" in his post-fact world.
Great, we have different opinions. Now what?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My apologies. I thought it was a fair assessment of your position. To be clear: You're *not* predicting that Trump will battle removal. Is that correct?
I'm not making a prediction and have never claimed to at all.

Again, and if I can phrase this more clearly please let me know. I am not saying Trump will battle removal at all.

I'm saying if he gets voted out, and he does battle removal it will be both not shocking to me, and not atypical of Trump. That's it. I don't know what he'll do because he's a ******* moron. He might **** do literally anything.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:04 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Trump won't need the virus to try to remain in office if defeated. He'll just claim massive fraud and use the courts.
He might use the courts like Gore did. Every candidate in an election has that right.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:05 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Is that your prediction?
It is my prediction that Trump will not concede a lost election but will instead seek to litigate it in order to question the outcome and delay his removal.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:11 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It is my prediction that Trump will not concede a lost election but will instead seek to litigate it
Gore did that.

Quote:
in order to question the outcome
Dems have been doing that for over 3 years now.

Quote:
and delay his removal.
Any litigation is likely to be settled quickly, for precisely this reason. Do you believe that if Trump loses such litigation, he will not abide by that loss? Or are we into conspiracy land where the SC is going to try to hand Trump an undeserved win because they're in cahoots with him?
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:15 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Gore did that.



Dems have been doing that for over 3 years now.



Any litigation is likely to be settled quickly, for precisely this reason. Do you believe that if Trump loses such litigation, he will not abide by that loss? Or are we into conspiracy land where the SC is going to try to hand Trump an undeserved win because they're in cahoots with him?
you got all of that wrong.

Congratulations!
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:21 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The part where Trump goes full retard.
We passed that exit 30-some years ago.

Quote:
Do you think he could succeed in what would amount to a coup? No, he couldn't.
Succeed? not likely. But this is the kind of thing where just saying out loud will have repercussions. He's already "joked" about it.

Quote:
Do you think he doesn't know he couldn't succeed? Of course he knows.
Does he though? Really? Are we sure? Also, he may think he can't pull it off, but what if he sees even catastrophic failure as preferable than just accepting loss?

Quote:
Do you think he doesn't know that he would pay a price for trying and failing? Again, of course he knows.
And what would that price be? Susan Collins being concerned?

Quote:
So even with the worst reading of Trump's motives, why would he do something so obviously self-destructive?
As has been stated before, he's a narcissistic moron. And no, saying "he keeps winning" without actually demonstrating his intentional success does not refute that in the face of...everything he says or does.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:21 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It is my prediction that Trump will not concede a lost election but will instead seek to litigate it in order to question the outcome and delay his removal.
Sweet. I'll see you in January 2025, if not sooner.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:29 AM   #159
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Trump blames Dems for the stock market crash instead of the virus:

Quote:
“I think the financial markets are very upset when they look at the Democrat candidates standing on that stage, making fools out of themselves, and they say, ‘If we ever have a president like this,’” Trump said, referring to the most recent Democratic presidential debate held in South Carolina. “When they look at the statements made by the people standing behind those podiums, I think that has a huge effect.”
Nevermind that the debates hadn't happened yet. As for Trump, he's saying it's not that bad and the only reason it's being made out to be a big deal is to hurt him in the election:

Quote:
During his news conference on Wednesday, Trump praised the work of the CDC, but also said he agrees with conspiracy theories pushed by Rush Limbaugh and others who say the outbreak being weaponized against him.

“I agree with it,” Trump said, alluding to Limbaugh’s comments. “And I’d like it to stop.”
I submit this as more evidence that Trump is a mother ******* moron.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:29 AM   #160
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First, just the fact that we're discussing Trump refusing to concede is very revealing. Everyone from Nancy Pelosi to Michael Cohen have suggested it is a realistic possibility.

This is the scenario Washington Monthly thinks is the most dangerous (and likeliest if it happens):
Quote:
It is Wednesday morning, November 4, 2020. At 7:15 a.m., after a stressful night of watching the returns trickle in, the Associated Press projects that the Democratic presidential candidate will win Pennsylvania, and, with it, the presidency. Sure enough, it’s a narrow victory—279 electoral votes to 258. When all is said and done, the Democrat wins Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania by only about 77,000 votes combined, the same amount Trump won those states by in 2016.

Donald Trump, who spent the past five months warning about fraud, has been eerily silent for most of the night. But as soon as the Democrat takes the stage to give her victory speech, he unleashes a barrage of tweets claiming that over 100,000 illegal immigrants voted in Michigan and that Philadelphia kept its polls open for hours later than allowed. “Without PHONY voters, I really won!” he tweets. “This is FRAUD!” Needless to say, the president does not call to congratulate his opponent. At an afternoon press conference, Trump’s press secretary announces he will not concede. Link
Even news media in other countries are aware of this:
Quote:
It is a sentiment shared by the likes of House speaker Nancy Pelosi, who told The New York Times last [June] that she is preparing for just that situation...Independent UK
Democratic candidate Pete Buttigieg has been asked about it several times but usually jokes about it.
Quote:
At a town hall in Reno, Nev., a voter asked the former South Bend, Ind., mayor what he would do if he were president-elect and Trump called the vote a “hoax,” refusing to concede. “I mean, if he won’t leave, I guess if he’s willing to do chores we could work something out,” he said. Link
I don't think we really have any idea what Trump might do -- that was the takeaway I got from the UK Independent article -- and I don't think we'll know until we get there what might happen. And make no mistake. The same people who are dismissing the notion, including in this forum, will be the same people passionately defending Trump if he refuses to concede.
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