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Old 27th February 2020, 06:04 PM   #241
a_unique_person
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The part where Trump goes full retard.



Do you think he could succeed in what would amount to a coup? No, he couldn't. Do you think he doesn't know he couldn't succeed? Of course he knows. Do you think he doesn't know that he would pay a price for trying and failing? Again, of course he knows. So even with the worst reading of Trump's motives, why would he do something so obviously self-destructive?
I don't see him going for a coup but the question as to why Trump would do something so self destructive is one that m many would like to know the answer to.
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Old 27th February 2020, 06:38 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Trump brand "all natural" cures.
The best cures.
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Old 27th February 2020, 07:50 PM   #243
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Here's what's funny about a lot of responses here.

There are demands to prove that something will happen in the future. Or demands for evidence that something will happen in the future. "Prove that he will give up power!" (No, that is not a direct quote.)

Obviously, I can't do that. On the other hand, I can note that no one has ever done anything like what is being predicted, so while I can't prove that it will happen this time the way it has always happened, it seems like the odds on favorite. "But Trump is different!" Well, yes. He is. "So he might try an illegal coup!" Yes, I suppose he might. I would be surprised, but he might.

And there's no evidence I could possibly present that would prove he will not. It requires knowledge of the future and insight into Trump's mind. So, I've made a prediction. I guess we'll see how it turns out.


As for Trump himself. This is a man who lives on top of a skyscraper that has his name on it, when he's not at his palatial beachfront mansion, and, these days, when he's not at the White House, where he lives because he's President of the United States, and he had a TV show for.....years. I just don't know how many. I never watched it. And he's in the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame.

When it comes right down to it, he has done fairly well for himself.

He's narcissistic and unscrupulous, but he's not stupid.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:42 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here's what's funny about a lot of responses here.

There are demands to prove that something will happen in the future. Or demands for evidence that something will happen in the future. "Prove that he will give up power!" (No, that is not a direct quote.)

Obviously, I can't do that. On the other hand, I can note that no one has ever done anything like what is being predicted, so while I can't prove that it will happen this time the way it has always happened, it seems like the odds on favorite. "But Trump is different!" Well, yes. He is. "So he might try an illegal coup!" Yes, I suppose he might. I would be surprised, but he might.

And there's no evidence I could possibly present that would prove he will not. It requires knowledge of the future and insight into Trump's mind. So, I've made a prediction. I guess we'll see how it turns out.


As for Trump himself. This is a man who lives on top of a skyscraper that has his name on it, when he's not at his palatial beachfront mansion, and, these days, when he's not at the White House, where he lives because he's President of the United States, and he had a TV show for.....years. I just don't know how many. I never watched it. And he's in the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame.

When it comes right down to it, he has done fairly well for himself.

He's narcissistic and unscrupulous, but he's not stupid.


I take it you are no longer defending this straw man:


Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As for several of the responses, they are of the form, "He said some really crazy stuff, therefore he might try to illegally take over the government.". It's a variation on the slippery slope fallacy. Does anyone know if it has a more specific name?

to which I previously responded:

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Do you have an example of that? I thought the responses were more along the lines of, "He said he would contest the election, therefore he might try to contest the election". Not really a slippery slope or any sort of fallacy at all.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:53 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I take it you are no longer defending this straw man:





to which I previously responded:
I don't know if I'm "defending" it. I'm merely restating it in slightly different terms. And I would find it tedious to try to find a single, specific, example, so we could debate whether it actually fits that to the letter, or whether that specific example was different in this one way which renders the similarities irrelevant. So, no, I won't give an example.
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Old 27th February 2020, 08:58 PM   #246
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Trying hard to get a job he didn't actually want wasn't very clever of Trump.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:32 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here's what's funny about a lot of responses here.

There are demands to prove that something will happen in the future. Or demands for evidence that something will happen in the future. "Prove that he will give up power!" (No, that is not a direct quote.)

Obviously, I can't do that. On the other hand, I can note that no one has ever done anything like what is being predicted, so while I can't prove that it will happen this time the way it has always happened, it seems like the odds on favorite. "But Trump is different!" Well, yes. He is. "So he might try an illegal coup!" Yes, I suppose he might. I would be surprised, but he might.

And there's no evidence I could possibly present that would prove he will not. It requires knowledge of the future and insight into Trump's mind. So, I've made a prediction. I guess we'll see how it turns out.


As for Trump himself. This is a man who lives on top of a skyscraper that has his name on it, when he's not at his palatial beachfront mansion, and, these days, when he's not at the White House, where he lives because he's President of the United States, and he had a TV show for.....years. I just don't know how many. I never watched it. And he's in the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame.

When it comes right down to it, he has done fairly well for himself.

He's narcissistic and unscrupulous, but he's not stupid.
No, he's not stupid but he does and says some very stupid things.

It's difficult to bankrupt a casino. The odds are always in the House's favor. Yet he did it. He also bankrupted/folded an airline, a vodka company, a steak company, a football league, and a 'university'. He illegally pilfered money from his own charitable foundation. And the list goes on and on.

I will give Trump credit for a few things:

1) He knows his base and he plays them like a violin.
2) He uses Twitter extremely effectively.
3) He uses fear extremely effectively.
4) He can lie like no one I've ever seen before and make his base believe
them.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:44 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know if I'm "defending" it. I'm merely restating it in slightly different terms. And I would find it tedious to try to find a single, specific, example, so we could debate whether it actually fits that to the letter, or whether that specific example was different in this one way which renders the similarities irrelevant. So, no, I won't give an example.....

.....because that would blatantly show what a distortion you gave of what others are saying.

AKA Straw Man.
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Old 27th February 2020, 11:21 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
When it comes right down to it, he has done fairly well for himself.

The coronavirus has done very well for itself, too. That doesn't mean that it's a very stable genius. Americans have always confused success with intelligence. Trump is proof that you can be one of the dumbest and laziest creatures on planet Earth and yet get rich (with the right parents) and become the president of the USA.

Quote:
He's narcissistic and unscrupulous, but and he's not stupid.

FTFY
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Old 28th February 2020, 12:07 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No, he's not stupid but he does and says some very stupid things.

He is stupid and he does and says some stupid things.

Quote:
It's difficult to bankrupt a casino. The odds are always in the House's favor. Yet he did it. He also bankrupted/folded an airline, a vodka company, a steak company, a football league, and a 'university'. He illegally pilfered money from his own charitable foundation. And the list goes on and on.

Yes, indeed, and unfortunately for almost all of us, the list is only growing longer.

Quote:
I will give Trump credit for a few things:

1) He knows his base and he plays them like a violin.
2) He uses Twitter extremely effectively.
3) He uses fear extremely effectively.
4) He can lie like no one I've ever seen before and make his base believe them.

1) That he's been playing his base like a violin doesn't really mean that he knows it. Playing a violin requires knowledge of the instrument and of music.
It just means that his particular brand of stupid has been very successful with his particularly stupid base. Remember that he didn't even come up with some of the most efficient words that he throws around as if they actually mean something: deep state and draining the swamp. They were proposed by Cambridge Analytica:

[quote]"We were testing all kinds of messages and all kinds of imagery, which included images of walls, people scaling walls," Christopher Wylie, a former employee at Cambridge Analytica, told CNN. "We tested 'drain the swamp' ... ideas of the deep state and the NSA watching you and the government is conspiring against you."
"And a lot of these narratives, which at the time would have seemed crazy for a mainstream candidate to run on, those were the things that we were finding that there were pockets of Americans who this really appealed to," Wylie added.
Cambridge Analytica began testing out pro-Trump slogans the same year Russia launched its influence operation targeting the 2016 election (March 20, 2018) [quote]

Trump didn't believe that they would work on his audience, but he threw them out there, and they did! He even said so himself at one of his rallies. Trump's skills at this are like a stage magician who tells his audience that he is going to make it seem as if saws a woman in half by using two women whose respective upper and lower parts are hidden from view by means of some elaborate carpentry. And the audience is still applauding him. Not because of his skills as a magician, but because they want to believe that he is a brilliant magician even though he's just revealed the whole thing to them.
That is their accomplishment, not his.

2) He also doesn't use Twitter extremely effectively: He's incoherent, he can't spell and he loves to abuse anybody who doesn't tell him that he's wonderful.
I know what your "But..." is going to be, but it all comes down to this: It works because his fans don't care and let him get away with it.

3) Does he really use fear effectively? In the present situation fear seems to be what's making the stockmarket crash. (Or are you going to say that the coronavirus has outsmarted him?!)

4) Can he actually lie like no one you've ever seen before and make his base believe his lies=

His lies are extremely transparent to anybody who takes a closer look at them, he contradicts himself constantly, and he blames people for the exact same things that he himself is doing. I've seen much better liars, and I'm surprised to hear that you haven't.
Making his fans believe them isn't much of an accomplishment when his fan base is willing to believe anything as long as it presents him as the miracle they've been waiting for. I mean, look at his fan base in this thread! Believing in Trump is something that they are working very, very hard to do. It isn't caused by Trump's excellent skills as a liar. It's caused by their own eagerness to keep the delusion alive.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 28th February 2020 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 28th February 2020, 12:12 AM   #251
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This stock market freefall will be all Pences fault.
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Old 28th February 2020, 12:15 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think terrorist attacks from antifa if Trump wins reelection are more likely than terrorist attacks from Trump supporters if he doesn't.

Yes, we know you do! What is the point of reminding us that you do?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 28th February 2020, 12:17 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
This stock market freefall will be all Pences fault.
and because of that, never before in his life has he been as useful as he is now.
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Old 28th February 2020, 12:40 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
This stock market freefall will be all Pences fault.
I thought the "fake news" media were responsible for the stock market falls in a deliberate attempt to attack the Trump Presidency by blowing the threat of Coronavirus to the US way out of all proportion.
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Old 28th February 2020, 12:42 AM   #255
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Mod Warning Keep to directly related to the virus topic else this thread will be closed as there are many threads discussing general Trump topics.
Posted By:Darat
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Old 28th February 2020, 01:01 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Lets try to get it back on track:

For the people who believe it is reasonable to suspect he will try to use the corona virus outbreak to his advantage:

1) In what way?

From the OP: "Declaring a state of emergency could be the way for him to cancel or postpone the primaries as well as the presidential election altogether."

So far, he's blamed the Democrats (and probably also the 'fake news media', I don't remember) for making the stock market crash. He hasn't yet blamed the coronavirus on them, but he claims that they have tried to make it seem worse than it actually is, thus making stockbrokers panic. And why does he worry so much about the stockmarket? Because he imagined that postponing a crash until after the election would get him reelected, which appears to be his only concern. For this reason he has also put his veep in charge of controlling all information about Covid-19, his own personal Minitrue. (Which probably won't work: too many potential whistleblowers!)
But he probably hasn't yet begun to consider the state of emergency mentioned in the OP.

Quote:
2) what do you base this on:

From the OP: "he has already stated several times that he might try to stay in office if he is not reelected in November."
We're dealing with a guy who is pathologically unable to admit defeat and to say:
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I AGREE

Quote:
For the people who believe it is unreasonable:

what do you base this on?

I don't belong to that group, but ...
From the OP: "Having to cancel his own ego-boosting rallies might be the only thing preventing him from doing so."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th February 2020, 01:16 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I thought the "fake news" media were responsible for the stock market falls in a deliberate attempt to attack the Trump Presidency by blowing the threat of Coronavirus to the US way out of all proportion.

I think so, too, and I find it hard to believe that Trump put Pence in charge for this reason.
I don't think that Trump is able to plan ahead to that extent.
I think that it's a question of germaphobia:
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I AGREE

In the very immediate future, Pence may have to visit hospital wards with Covid-19 patients. And we know what happened in Iran: Coronavirus: Iran's deputy health minister tests positive as outbreak worsens (BBC, Feb. 25, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th February 2020, 01:57 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think that it's a question of germaphobia:
This is going to be a huge spoiler for him. He thrives on his fantastic people, but he won't be going near near them for a very long time. He's going to look like the ******* coward he is, and even his most-hardened supporters will see it and be a little disgusted by it.

Huge Achilles Heel for the fat pig to be germaphobic during an epidemical disaster. It's going to play much, much worse than throwing paper towels at Haitians.

He won't be doing rallies, he won't be doing pressers; once the disease is established within 1000 miles, he will lock himself in the WH with a year's supply of Big Macs.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:09 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is going to be a huge spoiler for him. He thrives on his fantastic people, but he won't be going near near them for a very long time. He's going to look like the ******* coward he is, and even his most-hardened supporters will see it and be a little disgusted by it.

Huge Achilles Heel for the fat pig to be germaphobic during an epidemical disaster. It's going to play much, much worse than throwing paper towels at Haitians.

He won't be doing rallies, he won't be doing pressers; once the disease is established within 1000 miles, he will lock himself in the WH with a year's supply of Big Macs.
Those rallies seem to be very important to President Trump and I think he'll find a way to continue to hold them even if it involves having a dedicated, proven germ-free audience shipped around to each one.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:13 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Those rallies seem to be very important to President Trump and I think he'll find a way to continue to hold them even if it involves having a dedicated, proven germ-free audience shipped around to each one.
Can't be done. And the idea of him appearing in HAZMAT gear isn't going to happen.

He's germophobic, which is an irrational fear - there isn't any way even someone as spectacularly stupid as him will think he can be guaranteed a clean audience.
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Old 28th February 2020, 03:40 AM   #261
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Wouldn't it be ironic if both he and Pence get it, buy the farm, and Pelosi becomes President?
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Old 28th February 2020, 05:19 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I'm asking why they care about something they say won't have an impact. How is that not part of a discussion?
Who said it won't have an impact?

Why is such a simple proposition so complex to some people?
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Old 28th February 2020, 05:22 AM   #263
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12,000 – 61,000 flu deaths annually since 2010 per CDC. ....... coronavirus 0 deaths


Somebody is using fear-mongering to exploit this for political gain and it's not Trump
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Old 28th February 2020, 05:23 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Based on what data?
They're not Republicans.
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Old 28th February 2020, 05:32 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
12,000 – 61,000 flu deaths annually since 2010 per CDC. ....... coronavirus 0 deaths
If it's still 0 at the end of the outbreak then the US will have managed it exceptionally well and/or been very lucky.

Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Somebody is using fear-mongering to exploit this for political gain and it's not Trump
The Chinese autocratic regime has claimed that the coverage is being used to whip up anti-Chinese sentiment. Birds of a feather......
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Old 28th February 2020, 06:21 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If it's still 0 at the end of the outbreak then the US will have managed it exceptionally well and/or been very lucky.


It won't be zero (unless what has been said about the virus isn't true) but no matter what the number is it will evidence of an inept response by the government by most on this board and of course Schumer , Pelosi and all potential democrat candidates. Conversely probably what ever the number is it will be pointed to as evidence of an excellent response by people on the "other side".

What should be done that isn't being done already?
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Old 28th February 2020, 06:50 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is going to be a huge spoiler for him. He thrives on his fantastic people, but he won't be going near near them for a very long time. He's going to look like the ******* coward he is, and even his most-hardened supporters will see it and be a little disgusted by it.

Fanatic??? Remember that they have been denial until now, and in this situation many of them will need to see him as a savior more than ever.

Quote:
Huge Achilles Heel for the fat pig to be germaphobic during an epidemical disaster. It's going to play much, much worse than throwing paper towels at Haitians.

Let's try to avoid the fat shaming (and the pig shaming)! Puerto Ricans???

Quote:
He won't be doing rallies, he won't be doing pressers; once the disease is established within 1000 miles, he will lock himself in the WH with a year's supply of Big Macs.

He may come to regret after all that fastfood workers usually. aren't paid very much and can't afford to stay home if they feel ill.
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Old 28th February 2020, 06:51 AM   #268
dann
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Those rallies seem to be very important to President Trump and I think he'll find a way to continue to hold them even if it involves having a dedicated, proven germ-free audience shipped around to each one.

That still seems to be science fiction at this point.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th February 2020, 06:59 AM   #269
dann
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
12,000 – 61,000 flu deaths annually since 2010 per CDC. ....... coronavirus 0 deaths

Yes, Trump's favourite comparison. Like him, you are probably unaware that the coronavirus was unheard of until 2019. Otherwise, what would be the point of a comparison with the past decade?
You also seem to be unaware that there were no reported cases in the USA until very recently.

(This space is reserved for applecorped to insert the laughing dog emoji!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:00 AM   #270
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I noticed that Trump has started his usual whining about how it is so "unfair" that he is being blamed for the poor response to the virus.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:08 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
It won't be zero (unless what has been said about the virus isn't true) but no matter what the number is it will evidence of an inept response by the government by most on this board and of course Schumer , Pelosi and all potential democrat candidates. Conversely probably what ever the number is it will be pointed to as evidence of an excellent response by people on the "other side".

What should be done that isn't being done already?
A few instances from this article:

Quote:
Hundreds of Americans were left stuck on a cruise ship that later became the single biggest source of U.S. coronavirus cases — a CDC decision. Dozens of public health labs are still waiting for tests that will allow them to diagnose coronavirus — a CDC responsibility. One of Redfield’s deputies on Monday urged businesses and schools to start preparing for the disease’s inevitable spread — stamping the CDC’s imprint on public fears and irking White House officials who worry about panicking Americans and driving down financial markets.
Perhaps the guy that Trump picked to put in charge isn't doing that great of a job?
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:26 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Those rallies seem to be very important to President Trump and I think he'll find a way to continue to hold them even if it involves having a dedicated, proven germ-free audience shipped around to each one.


He could easily do it remotely with his image on the big screen. Or maybe Hologram Trump.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:34 AM   #273
The Don
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
He could easily do it remotely with his image on the big screen. Or maybe Hologram Trump.
It could, but then he couldn't enjoy being there for the rapturous response from the crowd - he really seems to get off on that.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:41 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
He could easily do it remotely with his image on the big screen. Or maybe Hologram Trump.
With Betelgeuse having gone nova a hologram Trump would be the galaxy's largest orange ball of light.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:48 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It could, but then he couldn't enjoy being there for the rapturous response from the crowd - he really seems to get off on that.

He could have his own live feed of the crowd, kinda like FaceTime, but with Trump--TrumpTime.
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Old 28th February 2020, 08:08 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
He could have his own live feed of the crowd, kinda like FaceTime, but with Trump--TrumpTime.
True, but he wouldn't be there, it wouldn't be anything like the same.
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Old 28th February 2020, 09:09 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trying hard to get a job he didn't actually want wasn't very clever of Trump.
Is this supposed to be shorthand for some bit of reasoning you haven't yet shared with the class?
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Old 28th February 2020, 09:12 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Is this supposed to be shorthand for some bit of reasoning you haven't yet shared with the class?
It's pretty heavily rumored that as election night started coming to a close, and the results became more and more clear, that the Trump crew wasn't as excited as they should have been.

Quote:
First lady Melania Trump reportedly burst into tears when it became clear her husband, President Donald Trump, would win the 2016 presidential election. Like the rest of the Trump team, she had been assured he would lose and was looking forward to returning to her normal life.
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Old 28th February 2020, 09:18 AM   #279
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
It won't be zero (unless what has been said about the virus isn't true) but no matter what the number is it will evidence of an inept response by the government by most on this board and of course Schumer , Pelosi and all potential democrat candidates. Conversely probably what ever the number is it will be pointed to as evidence of an excellent response by people on the "other side".

What should be done that isn't being done already?
Trump told the nation that this problem will just "go away" and he and his administration spread misinformation and falsehoods about the potential dangers of the virus.

So to answer your question "What should be done that isn't being done?" my response is, at the very least, Trump and his administration should stop lying to the American people about what's happening.

Do you disagree?
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Old 28th February 2020, 09:26 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
12,000 – 61,000 flu deaths annually since 2010 per CDC. ....... coronavirus 0 deaths


Somebody is using fear-mongering to exploit this for political gain and it's not Trump
COVID-19 is more communicable and has a higher fatality rate than influenza.

We also have vaccines and medical treatments to combat influenza.

We as of yet have neither to combat COVID-19

Not that any of this matters to you or the agenda you're here to push, but people interested in things like facts and reality might be interested.
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