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Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

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Old 9th March 2020, 03:31 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Eh ... OK, but I prefer my theory.




http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13003287
You're not going to address what I said, then?
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:34 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think some of the Berniebros want Trump to win if Sanders does not get the nomination. The whole "FOUr more years of Trump will radicalize the masses and lead to the revolution" theory. That has never worked too well in the real word, but appeals to those for whom the revolution is always around the corner.
It doesn't even make sense, but it's essentially a rationalisation of failure, or laziness. "Oh, well. We didn't win, but our loss if going to make us stronger, you'll see!!"

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Just, you know, a thought here - have you all ever considered the possibility that 1) deriding, dismissing, and/or demonizing Sanders supporters as "BernieBros" and then 2) getting behind a candidate that progressives can't stand is actually an UTTERLY ******* STUPID idea if you hope to build a coalition that can beat Trump?
Sauce for the goose:

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Will you say the same thing about the Bernie Bros who have been deriding, dismissing and demonizing "Centrists" and "Moderates" from day one?
And the very next post:

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Biden is the centrist hack, prone to brain melts, a history of lies and plagiarism who wonít tax the wealthy or put American workers first. We can understand why billionaires want you to get behind him and defend him, but you arenít a billionaire though are you?
It has to be a QED record.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:35 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Bidenís 1988 run is a poor portrait of character. Letís here some apologetics on that. Or are we still waiting for some talking head on CNN or MSNBC to feed the talking points?
"I'm Donald Trump, and I approve this message."

Seriously, Trump doesn't even need to campaign- he's got some of the folks who should be most opposed to everything he stands for doing all his heavy lifting for him. Why do you think he keeps tweeting all that crap about poor Bernie getting cheated by the DNC? All you're doing is parroting his talking points.

I guess we'll have to hope that when it comes to crunch time, if Biden wins the nomination, Bernie himself will be a little more adult about the whole thing than some of his followers.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:37 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
"I'm Donald Trump, and I approve this message."

Seriously, Trump doesn't even need to campaign- he's got some of the folks who should be most opposed to everything he stands for doing all his heavy lifting for him. Why do you think he keeps tweeting all that crap about poor Bernie getting cheated by the DNC? All you're doing is parroting his talking points.

I guess we'll have to hope that when it comes to crunch time, if Biden wins the nomination, Bernie himself will be a little more adult about the whole thing than some of his followers.
Bernie has already said he will support Biden if Biden is nominated.
And Ihave come to the conclusion that some of Bernie's followers are quite a bit more radical then Bernie's stated policies.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:38 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're not going to address what I said, then?
I did address it.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:38 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
.....said Belz, completely and ironically ignoring the point Cabbage was making.
You're really something else. So if I make a post criticising you for missing dudalb's point I still must address yours or be called a hypocrite?

I'd say you're making up debating rules as you go along but you and I both know that it's just a way to avoid even considering the possibility that you might have made a mistake in responding to dudalb.

"No, you!" doesn't work in elementary school, cabbage. It sure as hell won't work here.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:38 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It doesn't even make sense, but it's essentially a rationalisation of failure, or laziness. "Oh, well. We didn't win, but our loss if going to make us stronger, you'll see!!"



Sauce for the goose:



And the very next post:



It has to be a QED record.
I also note that this a cerntain poster always refers to :"workers" ,never to the middle class as people who need help. I don't think that is a coincidence.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:50 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Bernie has already said he will support Biden if Biden is nominated.
And Ihave come to the conclusion that some of Bernie's followers are quite a bit more radical then Bernie's stated policies.
I'm glad to hear that.

The fact is, I (as I've said) prefer Sanders; but I don't think Sanders could win over enough of the moderates he would need to beat Trump. I don't like having to think that, but it is, IMO, a reality. And since I think getting Trump out is the priority, assuming Biden wins the nom, I'll support him as forcefully in what I could at least realistically hope is a winning cause as I would have Sanders in what I would privately think of as a losing one. Even though I agree that Biden wouldn't be the best president from a progressive POV, he's a **** of a lot better than the alternative. You can't always get what you want; but if you try sometime...well, you know the rest.
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Old 9th March 2020, 03:52 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're really something else. So if I make a post criticising you for missing dudalb's point I still must address yours or be called a hypocrite?

I'd say you're making up debating rules as you go along but you and I both know that it's just a way to avoid even considering the possibility that you might have made a mistake in responding to dudalb.

"No, you!" doesn't work in elementary school, cabbage. It sure as hell won't work here.

I never missed dudalb's point--I simply responded with a point of my own. I don't know why this troubles you so, but somewhere along the way you are missing the point, and I am merely pointing this out.
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Old 9th March 2020, 04:01 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I also note that this a cerntain poster always refers to :"workers" ,never to the middle class as people who need help. I don't think that is a coincidence.
Itís fascinating that you think I am making a distinction here. As a middle class worker I see the way companies are termiting my wages and conditions, bringing in foreign visa workers for less, if not wholesale shipping the jobs abroad. Biden represents these billionaire interests and not the working American.
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Old 9th March 2020, 04:04 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And the very next post:
<snip>
It has to be a QED record.
I should have known that someone would take that bit as a challenge. My bad

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 9th March 2020 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 9th March 2020, 04:34 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Seriously? Is your view of politics so skewed that you can't recognize the political differences between a republican (i.e. the group that gave us tax cuts for the wealthy) and moderate democrats like Biden/Bloomberg (who want to increase taxes on the rich), just because they aren't doing exactly the same things that Sanders is doing?
OK. Exactly how many rounds of pushing for massive cuts to Social Security and literally every other assistance program (complete with enraged clarification that he really meant not just SS but everything that helps anybody because the suggestion that he'd limit his attack to just SS was so offensive to him), pushing for crime bills that primarily harass minorities, fighting to protect segregation, pushing for debt bills attacking the poor, voting for every war in sight, fighting for Republican judge nominees, attacking women for lodging sexual harassment complaints, and flipping his prior stances on things like Medicare For All after taking bribes from related corporations like medical insurance companies, would it take?
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Old 9th March 2020, 04:58 PM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
The "It's my way or the highway", "Sanders or nobody" attitude plays right into Trump's hands.
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Putting Biden up against him instead of somebody who might actually win is playing into his hands.
The latest RealClearPolitics polls average shows Biden would beat Trump by +6.5 while Sanders is only up +4.9.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...ders-6250.html
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Old 9th March 2020, 05:32 PM   #374
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Why Biden’s First Run for President failed: NYT News
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

TL;DNW: Because was exposed as a lying weasel.

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 9th March 2020 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 9th March 2020, 06:41 PM   #375
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Concerns over Biden's cognitive state are not new and did not start from Trump, Sanders, or Russian trolls.

Try Booker, Castro, and Ryan.

Democrats and Their Media Allies Impugned Biden’s Cognitive Fitness. Now They Feign Outrage.

And so, as does happen, what was once orthodox is now heretical.

As to the "why would people do this?" question, it reeks too much of faux-naivete. There's nothing people might gain by following orders? No patronage out there to be awarded for that loyalty? No potential for personal gain of some kind, financial or otherwise? Just a straightforward "should I do the right thing" decision with zero possible corruptive influence?

Horse hockey.

ETA: A lot of issues that happen in life and derided as "conspiracy theories" don't need a conspiracy to occur.

They just need to people to act like the system they are part of conditions them to act. Nobody cleverly designed the system to do so on purpose for some kind of 18-dimensional chess strategy.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 9th March 2020 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 9th March 2020, 06:44 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Why Bidenís First Run for President failed: NYT News
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

TL;DNW: Because was exposed as a lying weasel.
Wow! He used to be so bald.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th March 2020, 06:47 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Wow! He used to be so bald.
He looks less like a slimy used car salesman these days so that is a plus.
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Old 9th March 2020, 06:55 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
He looks less like a slimy used car salesman these days so that is a plus.
He got hairy legs!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:05 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
He got hairy legs!
Isn’t that video creepy AF.
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:08 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think the difference between BernieBros and BidenBoosters is how they often identify with the problems with their particular candidates.

Biden would not have been my first pick as a candidate, but I think he is best of what's left. However, I do recognize his track record of making embarrassing gaffes is a problem and it could cost the democrats at least some votes. (I suspect the majority of BidenBoosters here feel the same way).

On the other hand, when you point out the problems with Bernie, you often get a complete failure to acknowledge the problems by the BernieBros. Point out how his statements on Castro might cost votes (especially in Florida), and you get "Obama said the same thing/its true/etc.", when the proper response would have been "Yes it was a mistake." Point out how its foolish for Sanders to attack "Democratic elites" since he will need their support in the general election, and you get "Well, they had it coming". Point out how Sander's self-labeling as a "socialist" could be problematic, and you get "Well Republicans will attack anyone". Point out how the vast majority of people are against banning private health insurance, and you get some sort of claim about how "If you don't support BernieCare you want to see people die in the streets, besides look how great of a system it is!".
I agree. I think Sanders has some problems any time he takes the bait on Cuba. I have said repeatedly that he should just stop saying any "Castro was bad, but Cuba...". He should just say that his model is Denmark or something like that. If you have to explain, you have already lost.

And yes, attacking the DNC is electoral suicide. He'd probably have more endorsements if he didn't do that.


As for socialism, there's not much he can do about it except just repeat his policy aims and not attach a label to them.


Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think the issue is that BernieBros are not just dealing with the gaffes themselves (which might be fair game), but they are trying to suggest that it is due to senility/dementia (which is at least partly speculative).

And keep in mind that at least one poster who has been supportive of Sanders (Sideroxylon) appears to have accepted a doctored video of Biden as valid.
I think I should hold my hand up and say that I posted a video that it turns out was chopped at the end making it seem like Biden was saying "we going to re-elect Donald Trump".

So for that I pologize.

That said, the video still showcased Biden's talent for losing his train of thought mid-sentence. That's going to be a problem in the debates.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:12 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
...when the Sanders campaign criticized Democratic party "elites". (which is a stupid since he will need their support should he become the nominee.)
The Democratic Party elites are precisely the people he will need to pass M4A and every other massive reform he has been promising. Unless the U.S. suddenly becomes a monarchy, I've no idea how Bernie thinks he is going to get anything done.

Biden, by contrast, has ample support in both chambers of the legislature and he's asking for relatively modest reforms. He should have a good shot.
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:22 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The Democratic Party elites are precisely the people he will need to pass M4A and every other massive reform he has been promising. Unless the U.S. suddenly becomes a monarchy, I've no idea how Bernie thinks he is going to get anything done.

Biden, by contrast, has ample support in both chambers of the legislature and it asking for relatively modest reforms. He should have a good shot.
Just need to overlook him being a lying scumbag flake but yeah vague promises of “modest reforms.” What a presidential candidate! What a platform!

An America that offers a fair deal for working Americans must be relegated to the too hard basket because the establishment says no. Bend over and like it.

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Old 9th March 2020, 07:24 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Biden, by contrast, has ample support in both chambers of the legislature and it asking for relatively modest reforms. He should have a good shot.
Ah, yes. Because the Republicans have been so reasonable about modest reforms. They certainly wouldn't try to tank everything the other party attempts, purely from partisan spite, would they?

I suppose next you'll say they'd let a Democratic president appoint someone to the Supreme Court.
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:30 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ah, yes. Because the Republicans have been so reasonable about modest reforms. They certainly wouldn't try to tank everything the other party attempts, purely from partisan spite, would they?

I suppose next you'll say they'd let a Democratic president appoint someone to the Supreme Court.
Well, they might! How about a compromise? Mitch McConnell okays a Federalist Society-vetted pick from Biden? Sounds fair?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:34 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I agree. I think Sanders has some problems any time he takes the bait on Cuba. I have said repeatedly that he should just stop saying any "Castro was bad, but Cuba...". He should just say that his model is Denmark or something like that. If you have to explain, you have already lost.
Telling a bunch of brown and black voters how great white countries are. Great strategy.

God, no matter how many times I tell you you people still don't get it. You think minorities don't notice when politicians say the US should be more like white countries? They do. That's one reason why Bernie Sanders isn't popular among blacks.

You people need to get out of this Europormorphic mindset -- viewing the world as entirely white. The world would make a lot more sense if you did.
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Old 9th March 2020, 07:45 PM   #386
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Nm

This thread is about Biden.

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 9th March 2020 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:06 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post

This thread is about Biden.
Exactly.

This is one of the few times where black people exercise their political power in the US. And they're giving the Democratic nomination to Biden. And the all white, "not racist," "skeptic" community has a problem with it.

It's all a big ******* joke.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:07 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ah, yes. Because the Republicans have been so reasonable about modest reforms. They certainly wouldn't try to tank everything the other party attempts, purely from partisan spite, would they?
Who said anything about Republicans? The limiting factor on ACA provisions was a fellow best known as Al Gore's erstwhile veep pick.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Just need to overlook him being a lying scumbag flake but yeah vague promises of “modest reforms.” What a presidential candidate! What a platform!
The highlighted bits are how I can tell you've not even skimmed his platform.

I will note here that neither of you even tried to answer my question about how Bernie is going to get huge new reforms through Congress (not to mention the Roberts court).
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:23 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Concerns over Biden's cognitive state are not new and did not start from Trump, Sanders, or Russian trolls.

Try Booker, Castro, and Ryan.

Democrats and Their Media Allies Impugned Bidenís Cognitive Fitness. Now They Feign Outrage.

And so, as does happen, what was once orthodox is now heretical.

As to the "why would people do this?" question, it reeks too much of faux-naivete. There's nothing people might gain by following orders? No patronage out there to be awarded for that loyalty? No potential for personal gain of some kind, financial or otherwise? Just a straightforward "should I do the right thing" decision with zero possible corruptive influence?

Horse hockey.

ETA: A lot of issues that happen in life and derided as "conspiracy theories" don't need a conspiracy to occur.

They just need to people to act like the system they are part of conditions them to act. Nobody cleverly designed the system to do so on purpose for some kind of 18-dimensional chess strategy.
Well, color me shocked! Are you trying to say that fellow Dems, running against Biden in the 2020 primaries, would stoop to questioning his cognitive abilities? And here I thought they were above such machinations.

For C's sake, it was no more "orthodox" then than it is now; it was the same damn thing. Throw it out there and hope it sticks.

But what's your point? Because they did so that somehow absolves Sanders supporters from continuing this tactic? That it somehow makes them more true? Booker, Castro, and Ryan didn't present anything more in evidence than you, or Oxy, or any other "Bidens's got dementia" fan.

To claim that 12 former Dem candidates truly think Biden has dementia but are planning to make him POTUS anyway is a conspiracy theory no matter how you try to normalize it.

By the way, I, and no one else I've seen ever seen, said it started with Russian bots. I said the memo released the day after Super Tuesday COULD have come from a Russian misinformation campaign as no one has been able to find its origin. Stop misrepresenting what I said. It's dishonest.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:26 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Just need to overlook him being a lying scumbag flake but yeah vague promises of ďmodest reforms.Ē What a presidential candidate! What a platform!

An America that offers a fair deal for working Americans must be relegated to the too hard basket because the establishment says no. Bend over and like it.
As I understand it, you're Australian? Correct? If so, what is the motive behind your (fanatical, as I see it) support for Sanders? You don't have a dog in this fight. I'm curious.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:32 PM   #391
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Plagiarism in Bidens 1988 Campaign (WP on YouTube)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Replace one lying grifter with another. He could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue if you thought he would appoint the right judges.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:34 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As I understand it, you're Australian? Correct? If so, what is the motive behind your (fanatical, as I see it) support for Sanders? You don't have a dog in this fight. I'm curious.
Just a warning I will report posts that personalise arguments. Don’t make this about me.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:39 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
He could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue if you thought he would appoint the right judges.
Oof.
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Old 9th March 2020, 08:43 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Oof.
Hyperbole for sure. But how much of a pass Does Biden get as the establishment pick? What does the 1988 campaign tell us of his character?

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Old 9th March 2020, 09:12 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Well, color me shocked! Are you trying to say that fellow Dems, running against Biden in the 2020 primaries, would stoop to questioning his cognitive abilities? And here I thought they were above such machinations.

For C's sake, it was no more "orthodox" then than it is now; it was the same damn thing. Throw it out there and hope it sticks.
It was "orthodox" in the sense that it could be made part of the conversation and not produce howls of outrage.

Now bringing it up gets you called one step shy of a "useful idiot for the other side."

Quote:
But what's your point? Because they did so that somehow absolves Sanders supporters from continuing this tactic? That it somehow makes them more true? Booker, Castro, and Ryan didn't present anything more in evidence than you, or Oxy, or any other "Bidens's got dementia" fan.
My point was to share the information I shared.

Accept or deny the information on its own merits rather than based on what "the point" of sharing it was. Attempting to connect the information to a hidden agenda of some kind seems like laying the groundwork for confirmation bias.

To claim that 12 former Dem candidates truly think Biden has dementia but are planning to make him POTUS anyway is a conspiracy theory no matter how you try to normalize it.

I wasn't trying to normalize it and again I emphatically disagree. Tens of thousands if not millions of people every day savagely exploit whole swathes of the world and subject them to misery. But they don't have a secret bat signal or a hotline number to call for their latest orders.

We conquered 2 entire countries and subjected their populations to brutal oppression and sustained campaigns of extrajudicial murders with high collateral damage counts. It wasn't a conspiracy. It was massive numbers of people doing what their environments and institutional systems conditioned them to do.

Quote:
By the way, I, and no one else I've seen ever seen, said it started with Russian bots. I said the memo released the day after Super Tuesday COULD have come from a Russian misinformation campaign as no one has been able to find its origin. Stop misrepresenting what I said. It's dishonest.
Okay, I can only reference arguments made right on this forum from now on. Understood. Could you please have the mods update the ToS to reflect this new requirement?

Couldn't help but notice that you have no issue twisting my words around and then ending your post having made it about you and your victimization at my hands.

So let's drop all the emotional frontery.

Do you accept the information that this concern (or "attack", makes no difference to me, really) is not only from <insert person or group you don't like here>, shouldn't be dismissed on those lines anyways (poisoning the well analogy), and has been a discussion point since long before Biden's recent successes at the polls?

I do have a "point" or "agenda" and that's to put lie to the idea that this criticism can be dismissed solely by impugning the motives of those saying it.

My absolutely relevant concern is exemplified by his recent showing in St. Louis. It actually isn't the flubbed "re-elect" line, either. It was leaking Kamala's endorsement.

We don't need another President who blurts stuff out that is supposed to be confidential in the wrong settings. Doing so to puff up the ego or doing so because of being just daffy doesn't make a difference in impact.

ETA: I should also add, I don't even need him to have dementia to have a reason for concern, so I reject that entire framing and regret buying into it at all. I don't care what the explanation is and I'm not emotionally invested in one. I don't think he's "there" enough to do this job.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 9th March 2020 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 9th March 2020, 11:51 PM   #396
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Whoa, whoa, whoa, can we just calm down for a moment and try to be fair to both sides? Get out of your own headspace and try to see the world through the eyes of others. Democrats are (likely) going to choose Biden simply because they think he has a better chance in a general election, and Republicans are going to back Trump because they're evil.
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Old 10th March 2020, 12:03 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Just a warning I will report posts that personalise arguments. Donít make this about me.
Wow. I asked the question because I find it unusual that someone who isn't American would be so invested in whether Sanders or Biden becomes POTUS. No need for making it into something more than it was. Take a chill pill, dude.
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Old 10th March 2020, 12:05 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The Democratic Party elites are precisely the people he will need to pass M4A and every other massive reform he has been promising. Unless the U.S. suddenly becomes a monarchy, I've no idea how Bernie thinks he is going to get anything done.

Biden, by contrast, has ample support in both chambers of the legislature and he's asking for relatively modest reforms. He should have a good shot.
The argument is a Bernie campaign will motivate so many disaffected non-voters to become voters that a Sanders campaign would reshape the base and exert pressure on other elected officials.
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Old 10th March 2020, 12:09 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wow. I asked the question because I find it unusual that someone who isn't American would be so invested in whether Sanders or Biden becomes POTUS. No need for making it into something more than it was. Take a chill pill, dude.
Lol just stick to the topic and you will be fine.
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Old 10th March 2020, 12:15 AM   #400
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Lol just stick to the topic and you will be fine.
Fine. You don't want to answer the question. Got it.
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