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Old 12th March 2020, 05:04 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Cthulhu. It isn't silly. It's insane. Or at least, you will after you roll that D100.
Not familiar with the story. But after reading a little about in on Wikipedia, I'd say you're probably right.
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Old 12th March 2020, 05:22 PM   #162
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What is this thread about???
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Old 12th March 2020, 05:35 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
tl;dr
I think you mean as;ts
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Old 12th March 2020, 05:56 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What is this thread about???
a garage
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Old 12th March 2020, 06:00 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What is this thread about???
Someone's dragon and garage phobia.
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Old 12th March 2020, 06:34 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
a garage
Or the lack thereof. My poor invisible dragon is huddling in the driveway. Fortunately no gods exist, or I'd have to find somewhere for them, too.
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Old 12th March 2020, 07:10 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Or the lack thereof. My poor invisible dragon is huddling in the driveway. Fortunately no gods exist, or I'd have to find somewhere for them, too.


It's challenging to store dragons without the space. I'm limited because I only have a one dragon garage so there is no room for other invisible creatures.
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Old 12th March 2020, 09:20 PM   #168
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The only way out of the god claim is real, the dragon claim is a silly mockery is clear.

Evidence the deity in a solid manner. Put something on the table that cannot be refuted, hasn't been refuted a billion times.
Have the deity at the table himself/herself/whatever to verify his omnipotence.
Unless that deity is too busy or detached from humanity now too bother.
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Old 12th March 2020, 09:27 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Okay, I agree with you. We can't say they exist or not because we don't know.

What's step 2 of that?
The next step would be to ask "why bother with something that is scientifically untestable and evidently unknowable"?

I don't intend to push that step in any direction. I am already accused of evangelizing just for questioning whether we "know" that gods don't exist. It is probably a topic for another thread anyway.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
So, is this a callout thread?
No. (I wouldn't be posting if I couldn't handle the heat).

This is just illustrating another important difference between the concept of gods and dragons in the garage. One concept is far more emotional than the other.

I get that one of the purposes of an analogy is to remove the emotion from a discussion. However, it still needs to be a good analogy. This particular one seems to have been chosen only because it is silly.

As I have (more or less) pointed out before, we could have just as easily chosen a "cloaked" alien space ship instead of invisible dragon and if we had, I suspect the discussion would have a slightly different flavour.
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Old 12th March 2020, 09:33 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you seriously pretending NOT to understand that the garage IS the universe in the analogy? Are you seriously not able to use abstractions?
I am not pretending. To me a garage indicates PART of the universe. It suggests that gods/dragons won't be found in other parts of the universe.

That may not have been the intention of the analogy but it is open to that interpretation.
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Old 13th March 2020, 12:32 AM   #171
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Yes, and any one stage is only one part of "all life", but that doesn't make Shakespeare's analogy any less valid.
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Old 13th March 2020, 12:46 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I am not pretending. To me a garage indicates PART of the universe. It suggests that gods/dragons won't be found in other parts of the universe.



That may not have been the intention of the analogy but it is open to that interpretation.
Yet people have explained to you that is not the interpretation so why persist with it?
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Old 13th March 2020, 01:02 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet people have explained to you that is not the interpretation so why persist with it?
That's the way it is written. I have no way of knowing that "garage = universe" wasn't simply added when it was pointed out that garage was unnecessarily restrictive.
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Old 13th March 2020, 01:49 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet people have explained to you that is not the interpretation so why persist with it?
Those explanations will not be accepted so long as they conflict with the "God exists" narrative.
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Old 13th March 2020, 01:52 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I am not pretending. To me a garage indicates PART of the universe. It suggests that gods/dragons won't be found in other parts of the universe.
OK, exactly HOW does that suggest it to you? Never mind the fundamental problem of extending an analogy, but just... HOW?

Just replace "dragon" with "cat", and you can see the insane disconnect between "there is actually no cat in my garage" and "there are no cats anywhere in the universe." How in Lucifer Morningstar's good name does the former even vaguely suggest the latter to you?

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That may not have been the intention of the analogy but it is open to that interpretation.
Yes, well, any analogy is open to the fallacy I already mentioned, but then so is any other kind of argument. If you want to do a fallacious take on it, nothing will stop you from finding some applicable fallacy
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Old 13th March 2020, 02:17 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
OK, exactly HOW does that suggest it to you? Never mind the fundamental problem of extending an analogy, but just... HOW?
You are not saying what the others are saying. They are saying that the garage is the "entire universe".

You are saying that if you can't find it in the garage then you may find it somewhere else. Maybe, maybe not.
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Old 13th March 2020, 02:38 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I am not pretending. To me a garage indicates PART of the universe.
Because you're taking an allegory literally. Did you not go to school and learn figures of speech?

Quote:
I have no way of knowing that "garage = universe" wasn't simply added when it was pointed out that garage was unnecessarily restrictive.
For the record, I don't believe you. I don't believe for a second that this is the first time you've been exposed to the concept of an analogy.
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Old 13th March 2020, 02:53 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's the way it is written. I have no way of knowing that "garage = universe" wasn't simply added when it was pointed out that garage was unnecessarily restrictive.
Have you read A Demon Haunted World, chapter 10 in particular? If so, I really do not understand how you can have this interpretation.
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Old 13th March 2020, 02:57 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because you're taking an allegory literally. Did you not go to school and learn figures of speech?



For the record, I don't believe you. I don't believe for a second that this is the first time you've been exposed to the concept of an analogy.
I think this may be a language issue? Psion10 has shown they struggle with idioms and the like.

Or they are someone who can't grasp the concept that whilst the map is not the territory the map is still very useful?
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Old 13th March 2020, 03:13 AM   #180
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Also, it's not really the god and the dragon that is being compared. It's the arguments in favor of each! The dragon (in a garage!) is used to show that the arguments for a god are ad hoc and unfalsifiable.

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Old 13th March 2020, 03:13 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are not saying what the others are saying. They are saying that the garage is the "entire universe".

You are saying that if you can't find it in the garage then you may find it somewhere else. Maybe, maybe not.

I think part of the problem is that no one is mapping the analogy very well.

It's not exactly "garage" = "the universe" and "dragon" = "god" so no dragon in the garage corresponds to no god in the universe.

It's closer to "garage" = "known physical phenomena," "dragon" = "god," and "in" = "is the most parsimonious explanation for." So no dragon in the garage corresponds to no observed physical phenomena that are best explained as acts of some god.

Yes, a garage is a bounded space, just as there are bounds to what we are able to observe. There might be a pattern of auroral sparkles in a gas ring around some star in the Andromeda galaxy that can only be explained as an act of some god or stealthy alien, but that's outside our "garage" of observable things and therefore irrelevant to the argument.
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Old 13th March 2020, 03:21 AM   #182
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The point is that the invisible dragon in the garage argument is an analogy of a type of argument, and it is not intended to be a direct analogy of a specific argument, such as "gods in the universe". It takes that type of argument and puts it in an extreme form that makes it obvious that this type of argument is not valid.
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Old 13th March 2020, 03:45 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If I bake a cake, you wouldn't look for me inside the ******* cake.
"If I built a house" might be a more sensible analogy.
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Old 13th March 2020, 04:13 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are not saying what the others are saying. They are saying that the garage is the "entire universe".
They are doing no such thing! That is simply the way you are twisting what they are saying in an attempt to create an argument against it,

The garage is just a prop, a stand-in for the kingdom of heaven, so that those arguing against the existence of god have a real, actual, solid place to refer to rather that the imaginary, ethereal place that god botherers think their god lives..
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Old 13th March 2020, 05:58 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or they are someone who can't grasp the concept that whilst the map is not the territory the map is still very useful?
Well no because those people don't actually exist.

Nobody is actually hazy on the difference between the map and the territory nor as to why it is sometimes used and useful. What we have is a recent explosion in the last few years of people pretending to not be able understand these things to present a stalling, faux-obtuse affect.

We can't treat the "Oh lordy me I just can't be following all these... what are they called again... analogies you keep throwing out" routine as coming from an honest place because they aren't.

This isn't an argument, it's argumentatives.
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Old 13th March 2020, 06:00 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The next step would be to ask "why bother with something that is scientifically untestable and evidently unknowable"?
Science doesn't bother with any of them. The point of the analogy is to ask why one unknowable, untestable thing should be so privileged.

Quote:
This is just illustrating another important difference between the concept of gods and dragons in the garage. One concept is far more emotional than the other.
Science doesn't care how you feel.

Quote:
I get that one of the purposes of an analogy is to remove the emotion from a discussion. However, it still needs to be a good analogy. This particular one seems to have been chosen only because it is silly.
That's what makes it a good analogy in spite of your protests, circular reasoning, and ad hoc revision to avoid it. It shows that there is no meaningful difference between the beliefs on their merits. The difference is purely in the eyes of the believers, who contort both facts and reason to try circumventing that elegant fact. You can't seem to grasp that a large number of people think belief in gods is just as objectively silly as belief in dragons -- and they have a point. This is why your special pleading fools no one and why it doesn't make the analogy go away.

Quote:
As I have (more or less) pointed out before, we could have just as easily chosen a "cloaked" alien space ship instead of invisible dragon and if we had, I suspect the discussion would have a slightly different flavour.
No, not really. We tried to discuss how magic aliens are no more plausible than magic gods or mythical creatures. You didn't want to go there. If you're going to change horses and talk about prima facie plausibility, you have to give it more than lip service.
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Old 13th March 2020, 06:10 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Science doesn't care how you feel.
Correction... reality doesn't care how you feel.

Careful we're talking to people for whom "science" is, if not necessarily a dirty word, one that is applied in very narrow terms.

We tell Psion that "science" doesn't make the call as to Gods or garage dragons he'll start filling in the blanks with what does.

So we need to be very clear that when we say "Science doesn't have an opinion about X" we aren't leaving the door open for "Okay we'll I'm going to make up/invoke Woo that does."
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Old 13th March 2020, 06:31 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The garage is just a prop, a stand-in for the kingdom of heaven, so that those arguing against the existence of god have a real, actual, solid place to refer to rather that the imaginary, ethereal place that god botherers think their god lives..
Wow, this analogy just keeps getting more and more sophisticated all the time.
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Old 13th March 2020, 06:39 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
For the record, I don't believe you. I don't believe for a second that this is the first time you've been exposed to the concept of an analogy.
Same. I'm out. Good luck, all.
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Old 13th March 2020, 06:40 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Correction... reality doesn't care how you feel.
Yes, it's important to see it that way.

Quote:
Careful we're talking to people for whom "science" is, if not necessarily a dirty word, one that is applied in very narrow terms.
No argument from me on that, including all that followed. But if the question is whether science is irrational to reject the claims of religions people, then we do have to consider that it is the scientific perspective that's giving us the analogy of the dragon in the garage. And it's an acceptable consequence that people have to invent woo in order to sustain their beliefs in the face of such analogies, as long as the inventive process clearly demonstrates the emotional or assumptive intent. It prevents them from slow-balling these pseudo-philosophical arguments in and making them look like science to the casual observer. The point of the exercise isn't always to come out on top, but sometimes just to expose the shenanigans that poor arguments rely upon. We have to trust that people will then draw their conclusions with that better information.
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Old 13th March 2020, 07:24 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because you're taking an allegory literally.
Funnily enough, I have had the same criticism leveled against me whenever I questioned the bible.
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Old 13th March 2020, 07:26 AM   #192
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Seems to me psionl0 is grasping an unintended inference from the garage.

Its point is not that there exist other places which are not the garage. Its point is to illustrate that having a vast and unsearchable universe to hide in does not matter when we're considering a hypothetical undetectable entity.

Such a hypothesis is not made more plausible by being able to claim "you just haven't searched in the right places" even though it might feel like it ought to be, since there is no type of search which is allowed to be considered even potentially fruitful. It's the God of the gaps meets Monty Python's cheese shop sketch.

TL/DR: A garage is a searchable space. A universe is not. The point is to note that this makes no difference when there is no phenomenon to search for.
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Old 13th March 2020, 07:28 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's what makes it a good analogy in spite of your protests, circular reasoning, and ad hoc revision to avoid it. It shows that there is no meaningful difference between the beliefs on their merits. The difference is purely in the eyes of the believers, who contort both facts and reason to try circumventing that elegant fact. You can't seem to grasp that a large number of people think belief in gods is just as objectively silly as belief in dragons -- and they have a point. This is why your special pleading fools no one and why it doesn't make the analogy go away.
ie: the concept of gods is silly because the analogy is silly. Now that is circular reasoning.
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Old 13th March 2020, 07:51 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ie: the concept of gods is silly because the analogy is silly. Now that is circular reasoning.
That's not the argument. Try again, only this time keep your words out of the mouths of the people you're trying to call out.
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Old 13th March 2020, 07:52 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Wow, this analogy just keeps getting more and more sophisticated all the time.
What part of "we don't believe your pretense of being confused by this argument" is so hard to grasp?

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Funnily enough, I have had the same criticism leveled against me whenever I questioned the bible.
If you were arguing against non-literalists, that's perfectly acceptable.

As usual, Psion riposte fail.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ie: the concept of gods is silly because the analogy is silly.
"Oops, I don't understand any of these 'arguments!'" Still not credible.
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Old 13th March 2020, 07:56 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ie: the concept of gods is silly because the analogy is silly. Now that is circular reasoning.
The garage dragon is an example of a flawed claim. It's even a comprehensive example: It demonstrates the fundamental flaw of an entire class of claims. For most people, the example is effective because they can clearly see how the elements of the claim are analogous to the elements of every other claim in the class. You wouldn't believe in an undetectable dragon, just because someone says so. Why would you believe in an undetectable god?

But some people struggle with analogies. That's okay. Leave aside the dragon for a moment. Let's examine the claim itself in general form:

"Something exists, but has no testable properties."

The claim is worthless. Something that is claimed to exist but has no testable properties effectively doesn't exist. This is equally true of gods in universes and dragons in garages. And dragons in universes.

Something that is claimed to exist, but has no testable properties, effectively doesn't exist.

With me so far?

The above principle applies to claims about gods.

Still with me?
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Old 13th March 2020, 08:00 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Faux obtusity about analogies is like a horse buying silverware at a JC Penney.
What if you say there is silverware outside JC Penny?
What if you say there is some undefined invisible cutlery buying obatarian (Middle aged Japanese Karen) in JC Penny?

And are there any JC Penny's still open in your town?
And isn't that horse's name "Silver?" So "High-ho, Silverware away!"
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Old 13th March 2020, 08:05 AM   #198
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Agreed. "Effectively non-existent" means it could exist, but may as well not exist for all the good it's worth. We can't do anything with it, or know anything about it, so as far as we're concerned we needn't be concerned with it.
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Old 13th March 2020, 08:06 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
What if you say there is silverware outside JC Penny?
What if you say there is some undefined invisible cutlery buying obatarian (Middle aged Japanese Karen) in JC Penny?

And are there any JC Penny's still open in your town?
And isn't that horse's name "Silver?" So "High-ho, Silverware away!"
All these questions and more will be answered on the next episode of Soap! I mean, in the afterlife!
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Old 13th March 2020, 08:10 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
All these questions and more will be answered on the next episode of Soap! I mean, in the afterlife!
In that great mall in the sky!
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