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Old 24th March 2020, 03:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Depending on who you ask, the suspicion is that they are being sold into the adoption industry or into the pedophile sex trade.

And the people who are doing it are government officials friendly with the traffickers.
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Old 24th March 2020, 03:37 PM   #42
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Jesus, what has this forum become that applecorped is among the top three people in the thread that I think are being reasonable?

I can't tell if AOC has a point here. She seems to be complaining that the kids are traveling when the country is discouraging travel due the corvid-19. OK. Is that a reasonable concern in this case? I can't tell. For all I know these kids were being removed from a place of high risk to a place of lower risk. And I've googled to find out what this is really about.

Meanwhile the author of the OP is spinning this into a pizzagate conspiracy that only two people have questioned.

I'm withholding judgement on whatever AOC's point is until I hear some unbiased evidence. But this thread is a real putrid excuse for critical thinking.

ETA: Oh, I forgot to mention: I second all of theprestige's requests for unbiased information.

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Old 24th March 2020, 03:41 PM   #43
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My requests don't count because the post wasn't addressed to me, or something.
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Old 24th March 2020, 03:50 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Adoption makes no sense unless they were babies. And traffickers wouldn't want the kids in the system at all. They would smuggle them just like the drugs. That is conspiracy land stuff, yes?
Who knows? Stranger things have happened. It's not like there haven't been enough such scandals in the past to make it plausible...oh wait...

Quote:
So for the sane people, what is the reasoning behind sending these kids all over the country, perhaps far from their parents. Is it the local school systems that can't deal with the influx for kids whose parents are held for serious crimes? Or kids that literally have no parents and no way to find them?
There isn't any sane, non nefarious reason. If it were an issue of capacity they'd be bussing by the dozens and hundreds, not six here six there.
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Old 24th March 2020, 04:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Who knows? Stranger things have happened. It's not like there haven't been enough such scandals in the past to make it plausible...oh wait...



There isn't any sane, non nefarious reason. If it were an issue of capacity they'd be bussing by the dozens and hundreds, not six here six there.
All these kids go to a place called the Cayuga Center. The center provides school in the day and they live with foster families at night. About 350 of them, though of course they do not arrive all at once.

It used to be they would come through and stay with families, but these kids don't seem to have family there.

From reading different articles, they get a lawyer and may get assisted by the nearby consulate of their country, usually Guatemala or Honduras. Maybe they dont have consulates in Texas?

In any case, one foster parent said she used to care for 'city kids' at Cayuga but it switched when this place got a federal contract to take in the minors from the border when 'zero tolerance' was instated.

I do think it is unacceptable that they go so far away for care, but I see nothing suggesting a secret cabal of child peddlers.

Maybe you could find out why Cayuga was contracted to accept border kids. There just might be an actual reason. Maybe as simple as 'they were already approved and had space'. Or someone got a kickback on it. Find out!
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Old 24th March 2020, 04:53 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post

I can't tell if AOC has a point here.
They are bringing kids (a vulnerable population) INTO a quarantine zone during a pandemic.

It doesn't matter "why". The action is despicable on it's face.
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Old 24th March 2020, 04:55 PM   #47
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By the way, for everyone rubbishing the claim that the US government has given detainee kids to child traffickers:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/u...port-says.html
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Old 24th March 2020, 05:03 PM   #48
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A non-paywalled article about the incident CP is referring to. It's hardly what CP is claiming is going on now (ETA: I should point out is true that an incident occurred under the Obama administration that put kids in to a child labor situation. No pedophilia sex rings, and while certainly negligent also certainly not intentional).

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/di...n-traffickers/

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Old 24th March 2020, 07:19 PM   #49
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Old 24th March 2020, 07:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My requests don't count because the post wasn't addressed to me, or something.
No.

You claimed you were setting the standard of evidence ("I'm setting the bar") that the person debating you had to meet.

You don't get to do that!
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Old 24th March 2020, 07:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No.

You claimed you were setting the standard of evidence ("I'm setting the bar") that the person debating you had to meet.

You don't get to do that!
Everyone gets to do that for themselves.

And FFS can you tell me what is wrong with the bar he is setting? I agree with the "bar" he is setting for this thread. It's a perfectly reasonable bar.
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Old 24th March 2020, 08:30 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No pedophilia sex rings, and while certainly negligent also certainly not intentional).
So far as we know.

The original point was that there were allegations of child trafficking. I never specified it WAS for pedo, just that some people thought it was.

Would child trafficking be less wrong if it were for labor, or adoption?
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Old 24th March 2020, 09:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
So far as we know.

The original point was that there were allegations of child trafficking. I never specified it WAS for pedo, just that some people thought it was.

Would child trafficking be less wrong if it were for labor, or adoption?
Allegations are easy.

I have an allegation that people who are obsessed with child trafficking in the US are somehow... ahem... 'interested' themselves. Why else would their thoughts veer to such an illogical conclusion? It is absurd on the face of it! Maybe Schizophrenia or disorder with delusion could clear them.
The US legal system and law enforcement means that most people who really wanted to do things like that would keep them off-shore where wages are low and bribery is easier. So....why are you so interested?

You can never prove me wrong. I have allegations!!!!!
Are you feeling offended at the accusation yet?

muhahahhaaahaahaa

Last edited by Sherkeu; 24th March 2020 at 09:50 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 24th March 2020, 10:06 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Everyone gets to do that for themselves.

And FFS can you tell me what is wrong with the bar he is setting? I agree with the "bar" he is setting for this thread. It's a perfectly reasonable bar.
Maybe you ought to check the post he was replying to

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13031115

Clue: It wasn't making any claim that required a bar to be set!
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Old 25th March 2020, 01:19 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
not gullible, just seeing it beyond a partisan lense. Who held up the stimulus package? Pelosi and crew. That just draws out the time relief can offset some of the economic damage.
This is true, and if you bothered to do just the tiniest bit of research, you would have found out why she opposed it...

Fortunately, I did the research (and that will be the last time I do this for you)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/u...oversight.html

The bill as it stood, would have given Steve Mnuchin the freedom to issue over US$500b in loans - without any oversight whatsoever, that is, NO way to check if those loans were being given for favours, or to buy votes, or to partisan hacks and supporters.

We have already seen Mnuchin and the rest of this administration outright defy both the law and the constitution. In short, Nancy doesn't trust any of them, and given their recent track record, rightly so too!
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:10 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
They are bringing kids (a vulnerable population) INTO a quarantine zone during a pandemic.

It doesn't matter "why". The action is despicable on it's face.
all evidence is that the eldery are the most vulnerable population for Covid, and what is left at the end is little better than daily exercises in Outrage fatigue.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:11 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
A non-paywalled article about the incident CP is referring to. It's hardly what CP is claiming is going on now (ETA: I should point out is true that an incident occurred under the Obama administration that put kids in to a child labor situation. No pedophilia sex rings, and while certainly negligent also certainly not intentional).

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/di...n-traffickers/
In other words, FAKE NEWS fueling outrage fatigue.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:13 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This is true, and if you bothered to do just the tiniest bit of research, you would have found out why she opposed it...

Fortunately, I did the research (and that will be the last time I do this for you)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/u...oversight.html

The bill as it stood, would have given Steve Mnuchin the freedom to issue over US$500b in loans - without any oversight whatsoever, that is, NO way to check if those loans were being given for favours, or to buy votes, or to partisan hacks and supporters.

We have already seen Mnuchin and the rest of this administration outright defy both the law and the constitution. In short, Nancy doesn't trust any of them, and given their recent track record, rightly so too!
whereas some of us don't trust Mitch OConnell, Lindsay Graham or Pelosi.
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Old 25th March 2020, 06:37 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
whereas some of us don't trust Mitch OConnell, Lindsay Graham or Pelosi.

....but for some reason, as in this thread, you only point the finger at those on the left.....

....until someone calls you on it, of course. Then you go back to presenting a charade of independence to cover up your ignorance/gullibility/partisanship.

Just like this post, of course.

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Old 25th March 2020, 07:00 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
....but for some reason, as in this thread, you only point the finger at those on the left.....

....until someone calls you on it, of course. Then you go back to presenting a charade of independence to cover up your ignorance/gullibility/partisanship.

Just like this post, of course.

Not really, considering that ICE is an instrument of the overall government not just one party. And AOC is a crap excuse for a gadfly, just like Lindsay Graham, if one sees crap on both sides of the aisle instead of being stuck in a partisan bubble.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:14 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not really, considering that ICE is an instrument of the overall government not just one party. And AOC is a crap excuse for a gadfly, just like Lindsay Graham, if one sees crap on both sides of the aisle instead of being stuck in a partisan bubble.

Actually, yeah, really. And I wasn't just talking about ICE. I was talking about you blaming Pelosi for the block, for example. And I've seen you fall for Republican talking points on multiple other occasions as well.

"Independent" my ass.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:14 AM   #62
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Wow. Okay we've really have reached that point.

"Basic human rights are now a thing that should exist" exist is just an opinion, anyone who gets mad about it is being "dramatic" and therefore is wrong and we need to hear from both sides of the "We should keep children in cages and let them catch diseases" side of we're "biased."
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:28 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Maybe you ought to check the post he was replying to

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13031115

Clue: It wasn't making any claim that required a bar to be set!
Oh, FFS. Read the conversation.


This forum is worthless.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:44 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Actually, yeah, really. And I wasn't just talking about ICE. I was talking about you blaming Pelosi for the block, for example. And I've seen you fall for Republican talking points on multiple other occasions as well.

"Independent" my ass.
Thats partisan lackey talk. Pelosi bogged it down, right after O'Connel dig, two useless twats.
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Old 25th March 2020, 07:58 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Wow. Okay we've really have reached that point.

"Basic human rights are now a thing that should exist" exist is just an opinion, anyone who gets mad about it is being "dramatic" and therefore is wrong and we need to hear from both sides of the "We should keep children in cages and let them catch diseases" side of we're "biased."
Not hard core enough: You mean they're illegal aliens and shouldnt be here in the first place camp
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Old 25th March 2020, 09:03 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You misunderstand. I'm not trying to convince you. You're trying to convince me. I'm setting the bar.
Nope. You are neither Statler nor Waldorf. Once evidence or an argument has been presented, you must now either accept it or present positive evidence or an argument of your own refuting it.

This is what prevents woo-woo types from saying "It's your job to convince me that the moon landings are real, and if I just keep rejecting the evidence as "insufficient" I can keep saying they never happened." In a debate, doubting the evidence is not an adequate substitute for presenting positive evidence of your own.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:02 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It should also be noted that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is -
- a politician
- an outspoken opponent of the President and his policies
- committed to abolishing ICE

For these three reasons, I think it's appropriate to take any claim she makes, and any video she authors and publishes, with a grain of salt. The same way you'd do with any political claim coming from politicians and activists on the right.

If she's posting stuff to make ICE look bad, I want a second opinion from a source that doesn't share her biases.
Are you implying that it's possible the ICE agent and/or the children in the video did not actually exist?

Or that the video was not actually taken in New York?

Or that New York is not currently the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in the US?

Because if you're not implying any of those things, I'm not sure which "claim" of AOC's you are suggesting might be a lie.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Thats partisan lackey talk. Pelosi bogged it down, right after O'Connel dig, two useless twats.
Nope. As has already been pointed out to you in this very thread twice, what bogged it down was:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Why was it held up? Because it didn't contain enough direct support for medical professionals and economicly displaced persons but DID contain a half TRILLION dollars in slush funds that Trump could do whatever he wanted to with and ZERO oversight.

The version of the bill being considered now includes more support for doctors, more relief for UE persons, and oversight of the discretionary funds.

I call that a win for the people.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This is true, and if you bothered to do just the tiniest bit of research, you would have found out why she opposed it...

Fortunately, I did the research (and that will be the last time I do this for you)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/u...oversight.html

The bill as it stood, would have given Steve Mnuchin the freedom to issue over US$500b in loans - without any oversight whatsoever, that is, NO way to check if those loans were being given for favours, or to buy votes, or to partisan hacks and supporters.

We have already seen Mnuchin and the rest of this administration outright defy both the law and the constitution. In short, Nancy doesn't trust any of them, and given their recent track record, rightly so too!

Ignoring that, as you do (persistently) is "partisan lackey" talk.

And who, by the way, is "O'Connell"? LOL! I've seen you mention him twice now. Jesus, dude, at least learn the names of the people whose ass you are kissing.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:11 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Nope. As has already been pointed out to you in this very thread twice, what bogged it down was:







Ignoring that, as you do (persistently) is "partisan lackey" talk.

And who, by the way, is "O'Connell"? LOL! I've seen you mention him twice now. Jesus, dude, at least learn the names of the people whose ass you are kissing.
I find it interesting (not) that a discussion of AOC and ICE results in a discussion of Pelosi and the stimulus. I wonder how it got there....(not really)
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Are you implying that it's possible the ICE agent and/or the children in the video did not actually exist?

Or that the video was not actually taken in New York?

Or that New York is not currently the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in the US?

Because if you're not implying any of those things, I'm not sure which "claim" of AOC's you are suggesting might be a lie.
The claim that ICE is acting improperly by transporting some people to the New York area. Do I agree that the events in the video happened? Yes. Do I agree that they mean what AOC and CP seem be claiming they mean? No. Not without a lot more evidence and explanation from them about what ICE is doing and why.

I do not accept a priori that it's wrong to move people into areas currently on C19 lockdown. We take for granted that even under the current conditions, there are millions of people in New York who are in safe places right now.

Neither AOC nor CP have given me any reason to believe that the people ICE are moving to the New York area aren't going to such a place.
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The claim that ICE is acting improperly by transporting some people to the New York area. Do I agree that the events in the video happened? Yes. Do I agree that they mean what AOC and CP seem be claiming they mean? No. Not without a lot more evidence and explanation from them about what ICE is doing and why.

I do not accept a priori that it's wrong to move people into areas currently on C19 lockdown. We take for granted that even under the current conditions, there are millions of people in New York who are in safe places right now.

Neither AOC nor CP have given me any reason to believe that the people ICE are moving to the New York area aren't going to such a place.
Do you think ICE should clarify the reasoning behind their actions? Or is it up to AOC to find clarity for them?
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:35 PM   #72
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Do you think ICE should clarify the reasoning behind their actions?
I don't think the ICE officers trying to do their job in the middle of a video confrontation with a grandstanding politician should clarify jack **** in that moment.

There are people at ICE whose job it is to answer these kinds of questions and explain these things to the public.

There are venues and processes for legislators to inquire about the policies of federal agencies.

Quote:
Or is it up to AOC to find clarity for them?
Yes. It's her thesis. She has a responsibility to do her due diligence and present a fair, balanced, and informed account of what's going on.

Also, she's a United States Congresswoman. The ICE is applying policy based on legislation produced by her very own branch of government. One of the main duties of US legislators is to seek clarity on how their laws are being implemented. What she's doing here is not that. It's obfuscatory and irresponsible. It's pretty much the opposite of doing her job.*

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Old 25th March 2020, 12:45 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
....but for some reason, as in this thread, you only point the finger at those on the left.....

....until someone calls you on it, of course. Then you go back to presenting a charade of independence to cover up your ignorance/gullibility/partisanship.

Just like this post, of course.

His post was a hair more clever than usual. He targeted Moscow Mitch and Lenningrad Lindsay as well as Madame Speaker Pelosi.
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:47 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This is what prevents woo-woo types from saying "It's your job to convince me that the moon landings are real, and if I just keep rejecting the evidence as "insufficient" I can keep saying they never happened." In a debate, doubting the evidence is not an adequate substitute for presenting positive evidence of your own.
As a side note: Bigfoot skeptics should remember this too.
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
His post was a hair more clever than usual. He targeted Moscow Mitch and Lenningrad Lindsay as well as Madame Speaker Pelosi.
Yeah, I've noticed he tries occasionally to present a charade of independence.

But then he starts parroting right wing talking points. I don't think it's fooling anyone.
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Old 25th March 2020, 01:19 PM   #76
theprestige
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Nope. You are neither Statler nor Waldorf. Once evidence or an argument has been presented, you must now either accept it or present positive evidence or an argument of your own refuting it.

This is what prevents woo-woo types from saying "It's your job to convince me that the moon landings are real, and if I just keep rejecting the evidence as "insufficient" I can keep saying they never happened." In a debate, doubting the evidence is not an adequate substitute for presenting positive evidence of your own.
The moon landings have been comprehensively, scientifically documented, and corroborated by multiple independent parties.

If AOC meets the Apollo Project standard for rational proof, I will happily concede your point and accept her claims.

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Old 25th March 2020, 01:22 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I did address it, they are following crappy orders and generally deserve a crappy reputation given some of their tactics, as do the CBP, but she is gadfly and little better than Michael Moore some days. Given the source of the post its another day in the land of Outrage Fatigue. Meh...

You say this as is a gadfly is a bad thing. Given the nature of our political culture, gadflies have a proven record of being remarkably beneficial to society.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:02 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
<snip>

*bit off topic: I think one big problem with these 'centers' is that they build them for pure utility of processing. It makes them look like Guantanamo with those wire fences!
Kids need to be separated, at least initially (not very young kids from mom's though...just make sure it is the real mom!). They also should not be in big groups in case they aren't vaccinated. But those awful ugly prison fences to separate them really do make it look like they are caged. Any kind of temporary structure, with a roof and some calming colors would be much better.

They look like cages because ... wait for it ... they are cages.

And having the kids sleeping on concrete floors with metalized Mylar blankets doesn't help the look. Not to mention the lack of sufficient or even meaningful sanitary facilities (A couple of sinks with no soap? Really?), poor food and frigid temperatures (Even the guards were calling them "iceboxes).

Not only are they cages, they are cages so inadequate that if dogs were being kept in them they'd probably be shut down for violating animal cruelty ordinances.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
<snip>

Maybe you could find out why Cayuga was contracted to accept border kids. There just might be an actual reason. Maybe as simple as 'they were already approved and had space'. Or someone got a kickback on it. Find out!

If you think that's unlikely you should look into the rather checkered history of the privatized detention industry in this country.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:06 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
all evidence is that the eldery are the most vulnerable population for Covid, and what is left at the end is little better than daily exercises in Outrage fatigue.

"Most" being a relative term. The evidence is increasing that younger cohorts are much more vulnerable than was originally surmised. In numbers that are surprising and dismaying the health experts.
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