ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th March 2020, 11:58 PM   #1
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,863
Don't bail out the cruise industry

Quote:
Carnival Corporation is incorporated in Panama. Royal Caribbean is incorporated in Liberia. Norwegian Cruise Line is incorporated in Bermuda.
Quote:
They pay basically zero federal income tax. With all of that in mind, it shouldnít surprise many people that these big cruise companies essentially pay no federal income tax in the US.
Donít bail out the cruise industry

They chose to strategically incorporate in tax havens to avoid paying taxes on their profits in the US. Therefore, the US taxpayer should not be bailing out these non-taxpayers.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 12:26 AM   #2
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 11,483
Don't do a bailout - do a takeover.
__________________
ETTD
Everything Trump Touches Dies
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 01:04 AM   #3
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,863
Why would we do that? Also, under what legal authority?
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 01:37 AM   #4
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,517
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Donít bail out the cruise industry

They chose to strategically incorporate in tax havens to avoid paying taxes on their profits in the US. Therefore, the US taxpayer should not be bailing out these non-taxpayers.

I think you have to be pragmatic, how many USA folk are reliant on them for their income?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 01:45 AM   #5
Sherkeu
Graduate Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 1,263
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Donít bail out the cruise industry

They chose to strategically incorporate in tax havens to avoid paying taxes on their profits in the US. Therefore, the US taxpayer should not be bailing out these non-taxpayers.
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders. Doing any less is negligent. No company is going to pay more tax than is legal. Talk to Congress if you want that changed. Don't demonize companies for doing their job.

btw, I thought they all had flags from Liberia. They used to. At least they are diversifying!
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 01:57 AM   #6
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,863
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you have to be pragmatic, how many USA folk are reliant on them for their income?
If they are eligible for unemployment benefits they can claim unemployment benefits, if they are laid off. If they are USA residents, they will be able to receive checks from the government just like anyone else. Bail out the employees, but not companies that are incorporated in other countries for tax purposes and don't pay taxes.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 02:01 AM   #7
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,863
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders. Doing any less is negligent. No company is going to pay more tax than is legal. Talk to Congress if you want that changed. Don't demonize companies for doing their job.

btw, I thought they all had flags from Liberia. They used to. At least they are diversifying!
So? If you want to incorporate in Liberia or Panama to avoid paying taxes, then don't come to Uncle Sam if you need a bailout.

I'm not demonizing. Just pointing out that the benefits should go to those who have paid into the system.

It's like insurance. You have to pay the policy premiums if you want to be covered. It's a shared risk pool.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 02:07 AM   #8
Sherkeu
Graduate Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 1,263
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
If they are eligible for unemployment benefits they can claim unemployment benefits, if they are laid off. If they are USA residents, they will be able to receive checks from the government just like anyone else. Bail out the employees, but not companies that are incorporated in other countries for tax purposes and don't pay taxes.
Employees are just one tier of cruising economics. Keep going... to everything affected. Food, shipping. ports, tour companies, entertainers, etc...
If it is marginal to those industries, then maybe it will be absorbed.

After all, the buggy whip industry had to die. Does this one too?
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 02:17 AM   #9
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,384
https://twitter.com/Mikel_Jollett/st...39627993894912

Quote:
What’s the ******* point of allowing billionaires to accrue all this money if we have to pay them every time their companies lose value?

That’s what the BILLIONS we let you keep are for, ********.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 02:44 AM   #10
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 11,483
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Why would we do that? Also, under what legal authority?
By authority of having the cash: you could make the bailout contingent on having a controlling interest.
__________________
ETTD
Everything Trump Touches Dies
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 02:51 AM   #11
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 22,728
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Don't do a bailout - do a takeover.
Nationalise everything worth saving that needs a bailout.
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:00 AM   #12
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 22,728
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders. Doing any less is negligent. No company is going to pay more tax than is legal. Talk to Congress if you want that changed. Don't demonize companies for doing their job.

btw, I thought they all had flags from Liberia. They used to. At least they are diversifying!
And the corporations buy off Congress to keep this state of affairs so the American people can eat **** and be happy about it.

Talk to Congress if you want that changed? FMD that is hilarious.
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:02 AM   #13
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,863
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
By authority of having the cash: you could make the bailout contingent on having a controlling interest.
Like what they did with General Motors last time?

If memory serves, that was one of the few bailouts from 2008 financial crisis that the government actually lost money on in the long run. But it saved an important industry that creates many jobs for Americans so it was still probably worth it even if the government lost some money on the deal. Most of the TARP loans were repaid with interest, and the government didn't lose any money on those "bailouts" (loans).

Maybe if that's the only choice. In general, the market can take care of these things. Someone will be willing to buy it up in a fire sale from the previous owners for a controlling interest. Probably their creditors. I just don't know if the cruise industry is important enough for the government to take it over. Besides, if the company is incorporated in another country, that adds complications.

The private sector can probably find a solution without the government stepping in. By a solution I mean, somebody will end up owning those ships, and the only thing they're good for anyway is the purpose they were built for, so the cruise industry will survive somehow. It's just that one set of owners may be replaced by others.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:16 AM   #14
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,104
So there is some sort of morality index which determines which companies to bail out?

Okay, someone explain how that works and who decides?

Cross out cruise lines because of the claim that they pay no taxes and don’t employ US citizens? Firstly support the claim they pay no taxes or employ people in the US. No don’t bother, gut feel is good enough.

Tech companies? Why not. Most of their hardware is made outside the US.

Fast food companies? Evil personified. Give them nothing.

Maybe don’t support any companies at all, so evil US capitalism dies.

Christ moralists **** me.

Saving jobs is the main objective.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill

Last edited by lionking; 25th March 2020 at 03:18 AM.
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:23 AM   #15
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 22,728
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So there is some sort of morality index which determines which companies to bail out?

Okay, someone explain how that works and who decides?

Cross out cruise lines because of the claim that they pay no taxes and donít employ US citizens? Firstly support the claim they pay no taxes or employ people in the US. No donít bother, gut feel is good enough.

Tech companies? Why not. Most of their hardware is made outside the US.

Fast food companies? Evil personified. Give them nothing.

Maybe donít support any companies at all, so evil US capitalism dies.

Christ moralists **** me.

Saving jobs is the main objective.
They are based in places like Bermuda for the weather.
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:24 AM   #16
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 14,039
The cruise/noro industry is so filthy, so destructive, so vile in every way, that I wish it would die.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:28 AM   #17
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,104
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
They are based in places like Bermuda for the weather.
Which other companies are on your no support list and why? You have already decreed that companies which pay off Congress shouldnít be supported. Name them and explain why they should not get support.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:33 AM   #18
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 22,728
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Which other companies are on your no support list and why? You have already decreed that companies which pay off Congress shouldnít be supported. Name them and explain why they should not get support.
Itís an interesting framing of what I posted going on there.
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 03:40 AM   #19
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 42,094
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you have to be pragmatic, how many USA folk are reliant on them for their income?
Very few. The question is how many Philippine people friend on them.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
ďPerception is real, but the truth is not.Ē - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 04:33 AM   #20
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,927
The world could do with far fewer of these behemoths clogging up and desecrating the major tourist destinations the world over and creating climate catastrophes wherever they go. Just ask the Venetians for a start.

Bail the employees out, sure, if they are American. But assist the cruise line firms only if they change flag to the USA, and go to smaller, more environment-friendly, less intrusive ships that are limited to anchoring well offshore the world over.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornetsí nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 04:35 AM   #21
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,517
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders. Doing any less is negligent. No company is going to pay more tax than is legal. Talk to Congress if you want that changed. Don't demonize companies for doing their job.

btw, I thought they all had flags from Liberia. They used to. At least they are diversifying!

Are you sure that is the law in the country they are based in? From what I understand these are not companies based in the USA who have overseas offices, the overseas offices for these companies are the ones in the USA.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 04:35 AM   #22
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,517
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders. Doing any less is negligent. No company is going to pay more tax than is legal. Talk to Congress if you want that changed. Don't demonize companies for doing their job.

btw, I thought they all had flags from Liberia. They used to. At least they are diversifying!

Thatís for the ships, not the company.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 04:40 AM   #23
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,517
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Which other companies are on your no support list and why? You have already decreed that companies which pay off Congress shouldnít be supported. Name them and explain why they should not get support.

He made that clear, non USA companies.

I do have to agree with that approach, seems rather sensible, would you expect Australian tax payers to bail out say BMW or Boeing?

Yes support your people who work for such companies but not the company itself.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 04:52 AM   #24
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,730
Will Americans who have not filed a tax return for a few years due to being unemployed by choice, or working under-the-table, be eligible to collect their $1200?

If not, why should a corp that has not paid for several years be any different?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 04:58 AM   #25
DuvalHMFIC
Graduate Poster
 
DuvalHMFIC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,516
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Will Americans who have not filed a tax return for a few years due to being unemployed by choice, or working under-the-table, be eligible to collect their $1200?

If not, why should a corp that has not paid for several years be any different?
I saw a study that it would actually cost the government more money to vette the people getting checks than it would be to just give everyone a check. I highly doubt the same can be said of companies which will be getting much larger checks.
__________________
Ben is sick ladies and gentlemen, thats right, Ben is sick.
DuvalHMFIC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:08 AM   #26
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,926
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders.
An excellent reason to abolish them.

Quote:
No company is going to pay more tax than is legal.
It doesn't mean they have to engage in tricks to pay zero.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:10 AM   #27
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,104
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Itís an interesting framing of what I posted going on there.
Itís an interesting non-response to questions about your post about companies bribing Congress. Name them.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:12 AM   #28
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Norwood, MA
Posts: 3,327
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Corporations have a legal and fiduciary duty to do the best for their shareholders. Doing any less is negligent. No company is going to pay more tax than is legal. Talk to Congress if you want that changed. Don't demonize companies for doing their job.

btw, I thought they all had flags from Liberia. They used to. At least they are diversifying!
Yes, that legal duty to maximize profits probably had a lot to do with why one cruise line lied that its tropical cruises are safe because Covid-19 can't tolerate warm weather.

Floating typhoid Marys in the best of times, even worse so now.

I don't even see why the US would bail these companies out. They aren't US companies. Bail out any US workers, let these cruises look to their own for support.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 25th March 2020 at 05:15 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:19 AM   #29
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 34,292
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The world could do with far fewer of these behemoths clogging up and desecrating the major tourist destinations the world over and creating climate catastrophes wherever they go. Just ask the Venetians for a start.

Bail the employees out, sure, if they are American. But assist the cruise line firms only if they change flag to the USA, and go to smaller, more environment-friendly, less intrusive ships that are limited to anchoring well offshore the world over.
The cruise industry ruined the Planet Venus?

All kidding aside, I'd have to agree with the OP. If your company has discovered a clever but legal way to avoid putting money back into our tax system, then yeah, you really aren't entitled to a bailout by our tax payers. Go to the government that they've paid into, if that gov can't help them, then they sink or swim on their own.
__________________
"Never judge a man until youíve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, youíll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:37 AM   #30
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 984
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Donít bail out the cruise industry

They chose to strategically incorporate in tax havens to avoid paying taxes on their profits in the US. Therefore, the US taxpayer should not be bailing out these non-taxpayers.
normally not overly warm to such notions but you have a point there.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:39 AM   #31
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 984
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The cruise/noro industry is so filthy, so destructive, so vile in every way, that I wish it would die.
thats certainly a helpful contribution to the thread.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:41 AM   #32
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 984
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, that legal duty to maximize profits probably had a lot to do with why one cruise line lied that its tropical cruises are safe because Covid-19 can't tolerate warm weather.

Floating typhoid Marys in the best of times, even worse so now.

I don't even see why the US would bail these companies out. They aren't US companies. Bail out any US workers, let these cruises look to their own for support.
the actual problem they pose for some of us.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:45 AM   #33
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 20,724
I must admit I'm puzzled by this talk of cruise line bailouts.

They aren't an essential service, and if they go bankrupt, the boats will still be there. New investors will buy them and start operating them, so there aren't significant job losses, except in the short term, but in the short term, no one is taking cruises anyway.

Airlines might be a different story, but I can't see any good reason to bail out the cruise lines.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:49 AM   #34
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Norwood, MA
Posts: 3,327
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I must admit I'm puzzled by this talk of cruise line bailouts.

They aren't an essential service, and if they go bankrupt, the boats will still be there. New investors will buy them and start operating them, so there aren't significant job losses, except in the short term, but in the short term, no one is taking cruises anyway.

Airlines might be a different story, but I can't see any good reason to bail out the cruise lines.
I wonder what the criteria are for choosing who to bailout. The popular example is the american auto industry. In that case, seemed likely that after the doors closed at GM, foreign auto makers would fill the market void and the US workforce would suffer from the loss. The bailout was justified to prevent irreversible harm to a large employer of Americans because the industry would go overseas and never come back.

Is the same true for the cruise industry? The cruise industry is inherently non-localized. They take advantage of this by headquartering in tax havens as convenient.

So yeah, let them eat the loss. Either they go bankrupt and change owners, or go bankrupt, stiff their investors, and restructure. The boats will still have value and someone will surely buy them up and resume business, as you say. The boats will always need workers, and they are still going to visit all the popular tourist spots. I don't see why they, or the new owners, won't bounce back once people feel safe to travel on holiday again.

Seems like the people most in danger of getting the short straw are the owners/investors, and that seems fine to me.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 25th March 2020 at 05:54 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:52 AM   #35
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 54,514
Economic worth is not guided by moral worthiness. While it's satisfying to play judge and decree which operations and industries are or are not worthy of existing, and which companies are morally evil or morally good, it's not actually helpful in determining what collective action should be pursued in a crisis. Decisions like that need to be made coldbloodedly along purely functional lines. If taking Action A yields better results than taking Action B then we should do A, even if A is bailing out Gwyneth Paltrow's angel communication quartz butt plug distribution and B is employing the unemployed to build shelters for needy children. It's fun to complain about stuff but don't confuse that with actually assessing what should be done.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:53 AM   #36
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 28,184
Maybe it has more to do with the customers. If the cruise companies go busy then thousands of wealthy older white people stand to lose what they've paid.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:55 AM   #37
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 54,514
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Maybe it has more to do with the customers. If the cruise companies go busy then thousands of wealthy older white people stand to lose what they've paid.
The actual wealthy don't take that sort of cruise on that sort of ship owned by that sort of company. It's purely middle class.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 05:57 AM   #38
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 28,184
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The actual wealthy don't take that sort of cruise on that sort of ship owned by that sort of company. It's purely middle class.
The sort of people who vote GOP ?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 06:01 AM   #39
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 19,698
I'm not sure of the point of a bailout. How likely is it that people will just return to going on cruises after this? The industry already had a reputation for being a petri dish for the norovirus. We've had I think five ships stuck in limbo while more passengers and crew get Covid-19. Sounds like a great vacation to me. Seems a bailout is just postponing an inevitable decline.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2020, 06:04 AM   #40
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 54,514
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The sort of people who vote GOP ?
I'm sure somebody somewhere has collected data that would correlate vacation choices with voting preferences, but I wouldn't bet on the results. Cruises are inexplicably popular.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.