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Tags "Watch The Skies!" , Curtis Peebles , Ray Palmer , ufology , ufos

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Old 3rd October 2015, 06:29 PM   #1
lpetrich
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The Growth of the UFO Myth

Curtis Peebles has written an interesting book, Watch the Skies! A Chronicle of the Flying Saucer Myth (1994). He chronicled in it how it developed over the decades, and it's rather interesting to compare the versions of it for each time period.

Prehistory: mysterious airships, foo fighters, and ghost rockets. They come and go.


1947: Strange disk-shaped air vehicles ("flying saucers") seen. They have flight performance far beyond what Earthling air vehicles are capable of. Over the next two or three years, flying-saucer believers come to believe that they are extraterrestrial spacecraft.

Over the years, large numbers of people see them, people including radar operators, airline pilots, and astronauts/cosmonauts, and they display additional capabilities like stopping cars and making such physical evidence of themselves as padprints.


1948-49: The US Air Force seems to know more about flying saucers than what it is stating in public. By 1950, this became a full-scale coverup, as advocated by Donald Keyhoe and others. In later years, the CIA got in on this coverup, a coverup that has including smearing reliable witnesses as liars and fools.

Mid 1950's: the "Men in Black" get involved in this coverup.


1950: Crashed flying saucers / UFO's. This notion lasted only until 1952, but it was revived in the 1980's. The Roswell case is the best-known one of them.

1980's: Some of our advanced technology was reverse-engineered from crashed UFO's.


1952: UFO contactees. They have close encounters of the friendly kind with benevolent human(oid) "Space Brothers" and "Space Sisters" who come from Star-Trek techno-utopian societies. They want the contactees to spread the word that nuclear-weapons development is recklessly risking self-destruction and that humanity can do better than what it is now doing.

The contactees do either physical contact (meeting the ET's in person), telepathic contact (spiritualist-medium channeling of the ET's), or both.

Contactism faded in the 1960's, but some contactees continue to be active, notably Billy Meier.

The contactees provoked a split in UFOlogy, with the more respectable of UFOlogists, like Donald Keyhoe, becoming completely skeptical of them.


1957: UFO abductees. Antonio Villas-Boas was the first, but it was the 1961 Betty and Barney Hill case that first got a lot of attention. Abductees' memories are often blocked, though hypnotists can undo that blocking. The abductions are for medical examinations and experiments and gamete extractions, making the abductors seem like wildlife biologists. It took some years for the more respectable UFOlogists to take abductee cases seriously, since they seemed too much like contactee cases.

1980's: Many of the abductors are the Grays, sort-of human-shaped ET's with gray skin, big heads, and small bodies and limbs.


1960's: UFO's involved with domestic-animal mutilations, notably cattle mutilations.


I don't know of any big twists in the UFO story since then, with the possible exception of the recent proliferation of camera-equipped smartphones.


So UFO's are a story that grew in the telling over the years. There are some questions that Curtis Peebles did not adequately address, or at least that's what it seems like to me.


Why did flying saucers succeed where their predecessors failed?

I think that there may be two reasons.

The first is magazine editor Ray Palmer. In the 1940's, he was editor of science-fiction magazine Amazing Stories, and he ran as nonfiction the Great Shaver Mystery. A certain Richard Shaver claimed that many of our misfortunes are caused by nasty "deros" tormenting up with their rays, and he even claimed to have visited their underground-cavern homes. It turned up later that he was a mental hospital the whole time, hospitalized for paranoid schizophrenia. His superiors eventually shut down the series, and Ray Palmer went on to start the paranormal magazine Fate. It covered flying saucers from its beginning, and in it, he kept the notion going after the fading of the first big wave of flying-saucer sightings. So as a sensation monger, he scored twice, first with deros and then with flying saucers.

The second is the US Air Force's involvement and the coverup conspiracy theory that many UFOlogists came to believe about it. The USAF was involved out of the possibility that flying saucers could be secret Russian airplanes or balloons. Some early USAF investigators apparently believed in the extraterrestrial-spacecraft hypothesis, though the USAF did not talk publicly about that. This was turned into the theory that the USAF knows that flying saucers are extraterrestrial spacecraft, but is covering it up.


Finally, UFO contact vs. UFO abduction cases. I think that the accounts of contactees provoked a lot of skepticism because to many people, they seemed too good to be true. UFO abductees' accounts don't have that quality.
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Old 3rd October 2015, 07:45 PM   #2
fuelair
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
Curtis Peebles has written an interesting book, Watch the Skies! A Chronicle of the Flying Saucer Myth (1994). He chronicled in it how it developed over the decades, and it's rather interesting to compare the versions of it for each time period.

Prehistory: mysterious airships, foo fighters, and ghost rockets. They come and go.


1947: Strange disk-shaped air vehicles ("flying saucers") seen. They have flight performance far beyond what Earthling air vehicles are capable of. Over the next two or three years, flying-saucer believers come to believe that they are extraterrestrial spacecraft.

Over the years, large numbers of people see them, people including radar operators, airline pilots, and astronauts/cosmonauts, and they display additional capabilities like stopping cars and making such physical evidence of themselves as padprints.


1948-49: The US Air Force seems to know more about flying saucers than what it is stating in public. By 1950, this became a full-scale coverup, as advocated by Donald Keyhoe and others. In later years, the CIA got in on this coverup, a coverup that has including smearing reliable witnesses as liars and fools.

Mid 1950's: the "Men in Black" get involved in this coverup.


1950: Crashed flying saucers / UFO's. This notion lasted only until 1952, but it was revived in the 1980's. The Roswell case is the best-known one of them.

1980's: Some of our advanced technology was reverse-engineered from crashed UFO's.


1952: UFO contactees. They have close encounters of the friendly kind with benevolent human(oid) "Space Brothers" and "Space Sisters" who come from Star-Trek techno-utopian societies. They want the contactees to spread the word that nuclear-weapons development is recklessly risking self-destruction and that humanity can do better than what it is now doing.

The contactees do either physical contact (meeting the ET's in person), telepathic contact (spiritualist-medium channeling of the ET's), or both.

Contactism faded in the 1960's, but some contactees continue to be active, notably Billy Meier.

The contactees provoked a split in UFOlogy, with the more respectable of UFOlogists, like Donald Keyhoe, becoming completely skeptical of them.


1957: UFO abductees. Antonio Villas-Boas was the first, but it was the 1961 Betty and Barney Hill case that first got a lot of attention. Abductees' memories are often blocked, though hypnotists can undo that blocking. The abductions are for medical examinations and experiments and gamete extractions, making the abductors seem like wildlife biologists. It took some years for the more respectable UFOlogists to take abductee cases seriously, since they seemed too much like contactee cases.

1980's: Many of the abductors are the Grays, sort-of human-shaped ET's with gray skin, big heads, and small bodies and limbs.


1960's: UFO's involved with domestic-animal mutilations, notably cattle mutilations.


I don't know of any big twists in the UFO story since then, with the possible exception of the recent proliferation of camera-equipped smartphones.


So UFO's are a story that grew in the telling over the years. There are some questions that Curtis Peebles did not adequately address, or at least that's what it seems like to me.


Why did flying saucers succeed where their predecessors failed?

I think that there may be two reasons.

The first is magazine editor Ray Palmer. In the 1940's, he was editor of science-fiction magazine Amazing Stories, and he ran as nonfiction the Great Shaver Mystery. A certain Richard Shaver claimed that many of our misfortunes are caused by nasty "deros" tormenting up with their rays, and he even claimed to have visited their underground-cavern homes. It turned up later that he was a mental hospital the whole time, hospitalized for paranoid schizophrenia. His superiors eventually shut down the series, and Ray Palmer went on to start the paranormal magazine Fate. It covered flying saucers from its beginning, and in it, he kept the notion going after the fading of the first big wave of flying-saucer sightings. So as a sensation monger, he scored twice, first with deros and then with flying saucers.

The second is the US Air Force's involvement and the coverup conspiracy theory that many UFOlogists came to believe about it. The USAF was involved out of the possibility that flying saucers could be secret Russian airplanes or balloons. Some early USAF investigators apparently believed in the extraterrestrial-spacecraft hypothesis, though the USAF did not talk publicly about that. This was turned into the theory that the USAF knows that flying saucers are extraterrestrial spacecraft, but is covering it up.


Finally, UFO contact vs. UFO abduction cases. I think that the accounts of contactees provoked a lot of skepticism because to many people, they seemed too good to be true. UFO abductees' accounts don't have that quality.
Abandonderos to be precise!!! (re: Ray Palmer - not the Atom though the Atom was named for the editor...........)
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Old 3rd October 2015, 09:24 PM   #3
lpetrich
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Abandonderos to be precise!!! (re: Ray Palmer - not the Atom though the Atom was named for the editor...........)
Abandonderos?
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Old 3rd October 2015, 09:30 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
Abandonderos?
You'll have only to ask my "brother":

https://books.google.ca/books?id=gRA...nderos&f=false

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Old 4th October 2015, 09:07 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
Curtis Peebles has written an interesting book, Watch the Skies! A Chronicle of the Flying Saucer Myth (1994). He chronicled in it how it developed over the decades, and it's rather interesting to compare the versions of it for each time period.

Prehistory: mysterious airships, foo fighters, and ghost rockets. They come and go.


1947: Strange disk-shaped air vehicles ("flying saucers") seen. They have flight performance far beyond what Earthling air vehicles are capable of. Over the next two or three years, flying-saucer believers come to believe that they are extraterrestrial spacecraft.

Over the years, large numbers of people see them, people including radar operators, airline pilots, and astronauts/cosmonauts, and they display additional capabilities like stopping cars and making such physical evidence of themselves as padprints.


1948-49: The US Air Force seems to know more about flying saucers than what it is stating in public. By 1950, this became a full-scale coverup, as advocated by Donald Keyhoe and others. In later years, the CIA got in on this coverup, a coverup that has including smearing reliable witnesses as liars and fools.

Mid 1950's: the "Men in Black" get involved in this coverup.


1950: Crashed flying saucers / UFO's. This notion lasted only until 1952, but it was revived in the 1980's. The Roswell case is the best-known one of them.

1980's: Some of our advanced technology was reverse-engineered from crashed UFO's.


1952: UFO contactees. They have close encounters of the friendly kind with benevolent human(oid) "Space Brothers" and "Space Sisters" who come from Star-Trek techno-utopian societies. They want the contactees to spread the word that nuclear-weapons development is recklessly risking self-destruction and that humanity can do better than what it is now doing.

The contactees do either physical contact (meeting the ET's in person), telepathic contact (spiritualist-medium channeling of the ET's), or both.

Contactism faded in the 1960's, but some contactees continue to be active, notably Billy Meier.

The contactees provoked a split in UFOlogy, with the more respectable of UFOlogists, like Donald Keyhoe, becoming completely skeptical of them.


1957: UFO abductees. Antonio Villas-Boas was the first, but it was the 1961 Betty and Barney Hill case that first got a lot of attention. Abductees' memories are often blocked, though hypnotists can undo that blocking. The abductions are for medical examinations and experiments and gamete extractions, making the abductors seem like wildlife biologists. It took some years for the more respectable UFOlogists to take abductee cases seriously, since they seemed too much like contactee cases.

1980's: Many of the abductors are the Grays, sort-of human-shaped ET's with gray skin, big heads, and small bodies and limbs.


1960's: UFO's involved with domestic-animal mutilations, notably cattle mutilations.


I don't know of any big twists in the UFO story since then, with the possible exception of the recent proliferation of camera-equipped smartphones.


So UFO's are a story that grew in the telling over the years. There are some questions that Curtis Peebles did not adequately address, or at least that's what it seems like to me.


Why did flying saucers succeed where their predecessors failed?

I think that there may be two reasons.

The first is magazine editor Ray Palmer. In the 1940's, he was editor of science-fiction magazine Amazing Stories, and he ran as nonfiction the Great Shaver Mystery. A certain Richard Shaver claimed that many of our misfortunes are caused by nasty "deros" tormenting up with their rays, and he even claimed to have visited their underground-cavern homes. It turned up later that he was a mental hospital the whole time, hospitalized for paranoid schizophrenia. His superiors eventually shut down the series, and Ray Palmer went on to start the paranormal magazine Fate. It covered flying saucers from its beginning, and in it, he kept the notion going after the fading of the first big wave of flying-saucer sightings. So as a sensation monger, he scored twice, first with deros and then with flying saucers.

The second is the US Air Force's involvement and the coverup conspiracy theory that many UFOlogists came to believe about it. The USAF was involved out of the possibility that flying saucers could be secret Russian airplanes or balloons. Some early USAF investigators apparently believed in the extraterrestrial-spacecraft hypothesis, though the USAF did not talk publicly about that. This was turned into the theory that the USAF knows that flying saucers are extraterrestrial spacecraft, but is covering it up.


Finally, UFO contact vs. UFO abduction cases. I think that the accounts of contactees provoked a lot of skepticism because to many people, they seemed too good to be true. UFO abductees' accounts don't have that quality.
Interesting how UFO technology always stays just one step ahead of human technology.
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Old 4th October 2015, 09:52 AM   #6
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Baring prehistory where people mistake shape for something they are not, pretty much from 1947 onward you are far better off to compare with films , book cover and comic which were published shortly before. You might find interesting relationship.

Just sayin'
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Old 4th October 2015, 12:15 PM   #7
lpetrich
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Interesting how UFO technology always stays just one step ahead of human technology.
Any details?

That seems rather evident about the mysterious airships. That was a much-discussed technology around when those vehicles were seen.

It's not quite so evident about spacecraft, since they were a common staple of science fiction for some decades before Kenneth Arnold's famous sighting.


It must be pointed out that the extraterrestrial-spacecraft hypothesis for many UFO sightings requires some rather performance characteristics far ahead of our air vehicles, something pointed out since the beginning of our UFO era. They'd require some science-fictional technology like antigravity to work, it seems.

Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Baring prehistory where people mistake shape for something they are not, pretty much from 1947 onward you are far better off to compare with films , book cover and comic which were published shortly before. You might find interesting relationship.
Any details?

I recall something about how rotating flying saucers appeared in movies before they appeared in UFO reports.

There are some UFO shapes that don't have much connection with such media, like black triangles. Those ones seem to me like they are likely secret stealth aircraft -- their appearance matches rather well. I'm also unaware of any black-triangle meme before black-triangle sightings started in the 1980's. Cigar shapes are rather iffy, since those are what rockets and missiles and airplane fuselages are shaped like.
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Old 4th October 2015, 12:28 PM   #8
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I've found this: World UFO Day 2015 - Official website

Curiously, its date is July 2, a date associated with the Roswell incident, instead of the date of Kenneth Arnold's famous sighting, June 24.

I would have preferred the Kenneth Arnold date, since his sighting is relatively typical of UFO sightings: distant, poorly-resolved objects.

However, the Roswell incident is the sort of thing that would provide strong evidence for the extraterrestrial hypothesis if it held up.
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Old 4th October 2015, 01:02 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Baring prehistory where people mistake shape for something they are not, pretty much from 1947 onward you are far better off to compare with films , book cover and comic which were published shortly before. You might find interesting relationship.

Just sayin'
I watched a very interesting doco some years ago, where they compared the effects each movie had on UFO sightings,
very interesting psychology there..
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Old 4th October 2015, 04:23 PM   #10
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I used to be into the UFO scene.

My first big red flag came when I realized that the phenomenon had completely changed between 1975 and 1985. In the 50s, 60s & 70s the craft would land. They had landing gear, left imprints in the ground (allegedly), burned vegetation, and radioactive residue (again, allegedly). After 1985 the craft just hovered or floated.

Suddenly the UFO folks had their excuse for no physical evidence.
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Old 5th October 2015, 08:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
I recall something about how rotating flying saucers appeared in movies before they appeared in UFO reports.

I recall reading that reports of encounters with Greys, as opposed to aliens of other types, increased significantly after 1987 (the publication of Communion).
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Old 5th October 2015, 08:14 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I recall reading that reports of encounters with Greys, as opposed to aliens of other types, increased significantly after 1987 (the publication of Communion).
And that was inspired by "Close Encounters of the Third Kind."
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Old 5th October 2015, 08:36 AM   #13
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I recommend the documentary Mirage Men, currently available on netflix. It covers USAF dissemination of ufo disinformation to deflect attention from the top secret aviation experiments they were conducting.
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:07 AM   #14
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So calling some secret airplanes UFO's was a way of covering them up? Seems like that may also be going on with at least some black-triangle UFO's.

I've seen that theory for the Soviet Union also, that the Soviet authorities did that with some tests of a FOBS (Fractional Orbital Bombardment System) nuclear-weapons system: "Soviet Saucers" by James Oberg, The Great Soviet UFO Coverup
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Old 5th October 2015, 10:10 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
So calling some secret airplanes UFO's was a way of covering them up? Seems like that may also be going on with at least some black-triangle UFO's.
My brother was stationed at Belleville when the first "triangular" UFO was spotted here. When I asked him about it he just laughed.
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Old 5th October 2015, 12:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
So calling some secret airplanes UFO's was a way of covering them up? Seems like that may also be going on with at least some black-triangle UFO's.
Roswell seems to be the result of a top secret US Air Force surveillance program that they had to lie about. It was listening devices that needed very precise altitudes over long periods of time in order to be effective, so in addition to the audio gizmos you had ballast control gizmos that needed to be hooked to vertical airspeed indicator/altimeter gizmos. You have polyethylene sheeting, some kind of housing material for all of these gizmos and the base structural framing - lots of high tech debris.

So the fact the Air Force lies about it, calling it a weather balloon, immediately gives UFO conspiracy theorists a legitimate claim of cover-up. Any top secret test craft has exactly the same set-up. People see a flying triangle. The Air Force denies it has a radar-defeating test bomber, and now you have numerous incidents of bona-fide cover ups.

So it isn't the Air Force claiming there are UFO's. It is UFO fans turning the fact there are cover-ups into a claim there are aliens visiting earth.
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Old 5th October 2015, 12:48 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Roswell seems to be the result of a top secret US Air Force surveillance program that they had to lie about.
Project Mogul, listening for Soviet atom bomb tests.
Quote:
So it isn't the Air Force claiming there are UFO's. It is UFO fans turning the fact there are cover-ups into a claim there are aliens visiting earth.
Actually, it was Jesse Marcel, Jr., claiming that he had seen alien artifacts on their dining room table and getting some hack UFO writing to cash in on that.
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Old 5th October 2015, 12:59 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
Any details?

I recall something about how rotating flying saucers appeared in movies before they appeared in UFO reports.

There are some UFO shapes that don't have much connection with such media, like black triangles. Those ones seem to me like they are likely secret stealth aircraft -- their appearance matches rather well. I'm also unaware of any black-triangle meme before black-triangle sightings started in the 1980's. Cigar shapes are rather iffy, since those are what rockets and missiles and airplane fuselages are shaped like.
I wish I had kept the link, but it was more than 10 years ago i saw the amateur web page, and unfortunate it either disappeared not maintained, or it is lost in the deluge of web page you find searching for any UFO term. Now that I recall it was not so much about UFO form but alien description in case of abduction and linking to movie/tv serie.
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Old 5th October 2015, 01:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
My brother was stationed at Belleville when the first "triangular" UFO was spotted here. When I asked him about it he just laughed.
That proves it - he's part of the cover-up!
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Old 5th October 2015, 01:20 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
That proves it - he's part of the cover-up!
The boy's not exactly a rocket surgeon.
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Old 5th October 2015, 02:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
The boy's not exactly a rocket surgeon.
OK - I understand.

It's definitely true...

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Old 5th October 2015, 03:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Abandonderos to be precise!!! (re: Ray Palmer - not the Atom though the Atom was named for the editor...........)
And on TV Ray Palmer/The Atom will be played by Brandon Routh,no less....
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Old 6th October 2015, 04:15 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post

Actually, it was Jesse Marcel, Jr., claiming that he had seen alien artifacts on their dining room table and getting some hack UFO writing to cash in on that.
So yeah, I looked up his father and him - very interesting. The father is reprimanded for being a press-seeking fabulist!

So he was there when the real debris was taken to General Ramey's office.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/what_r...ed_at_roswell/

That's interesting because we've been seeing it all along.

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Old 6th October 2015, 04:18 PM   #24
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What's the red rectangle trying to draw our attention to?
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Old 6th October 2015, 05:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
What's the red rectangle trying to draw our attention to?
ISTR that if you "enhanced" it all to Hell it was a Teletype message that said, "THIS IS NOT THE REAL DEBRIS STOP FOR THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK IN MY OFFICE AT AREA 51 STOP SIGNED RAMEY".

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Old 6th October 2015, 05:51 PM   #26
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PS. Can anyone else see Jay Leno's face in the piece of alien metal on the floor?
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Old 6th October 2015, 08:48 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
What's the red rectangle trying to draw our attention to?
Not sure, and I kind of have a rule about zooming in beyond the ability of the pixel quality. I just don't bother.

Some of the bigfoot thread followers engage with the 'footers at a level I think beyond what we can get out of it. You can see Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa at these levels.

The true story is really fascinating. I'll bet a lot more people know the fabulist version as opposed to the real one.
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Old 6th October 2015, 10:24 PM   #28
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That bloody mortician's assistant, Dennis, has certainly muddied the waters.
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Old 7th October 2015, 03:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
So calling some secret airplanes UFO's was a way of covering them up? Seems like that may also be going on with at least some black-triangle UFO's.

I've seen that theory for the Soviet Union also, that the Soviet authorities did that with some tests of a FOBS (Fractional Orbital Bombardment System) nuclear-weapons system: "Soviet Saucers" by James Oberg, The Great Soviet UFO Coverup
There was also the 'glowing orange spheres' that were occasionally seen in the '50s (most notably associated with the Dyatlov Pass incident). Only post-Soviet Union was it discovered that they were due to test launches of the R-7 ('Sapwood') missile system.
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Old 7th October 2015, 07:44 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Interesting how UFO technology always stays just one step ahead of human technology.
I'd say it's even more interesting how the intelligence of aliens takes a nose-dive over time.

- millions of years ago: capable of engineering new sentient life

- 5000 years ago: can only teach humans how to stack big rocks on top of each other, and how to write exclusively via icons and emoticons, like it's 13 year olds on their first smartphone. Which I suppose would also explain the Egyptian obsession with cats

- 20'th century: starts from pointlessly flying around aircraft and nuclear explosions (a spacefaring species could observe from greater distances, unless again they're into it just to take a selfie with a terran bomber) and goes downhill into cutting vaginas and anuses off dead cows, flattening circles into crops, and anal probing inbred hicks

It's like alien Idiocracy, I tell ya.
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Old 7th October 2015, 09:06 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'd say it's even more interesting how the intelligence of aliens takes a nose-dive over time.

- millions of years ago: capable of engineering new sentient life

- 5000 years ago: can only teach humans how to stack big rocks on top of each other, and how to write exclusively via icons and emoticons, like it's 13 year olds on their first smartphone. Which I suppose would also explain the Egyptian obsession with cats

- 20'th century: starts from pointlessly flying around aircraft and nuclear explosions (a spacefaring species could observe from greater distances, unless again they're into it just to take a selfie with a terran bomber) and goes downhill into cutting vaginas and anuses off dead cows, flattening circles into crops, and anal probing inbred hicks

It's like alien Idiocracy, I tell ya.
You are assuming that it is only one type of alien that is visiting. There may be many types with different backgrounds and abilities.

There is a lot of written Science Fiction with all sorts of reasons why the aliens act as idiotic as they appear to do. One of these is that one type are morons who have taken 100 times as long as the human race to evolve to a level of intelligence capable of space travel.
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Old 8th October 2015, 01:25 AM   #32
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Not sure that explains it. See, there's a reason for expressions like "not a rocket scientist." Stupid people tend to not understand that kind of stuff.

Very low intelligence doesn't just mean being slow at calculating quantum mechanics stuff for a warp drive (although being TOO slow is a handicap by itself), it also means flat out not understanding stuff past a level of complexity. They're not going to come up with a warp drive, just like Bonobos don't come up with an internal combustion engine.

A civilization of 3-stooges class morons, is just not going to invent its way into galactic exploration. Hell, they're not going to even invent a scientific method or the steps in logic and philosophy that led to that. That's stuff that took time and wasn't guaranteed to happen (or at least it didn't happen in all civilizations) even on Earth, because it took some smart people applying a lot of thinking to some very non-obvious stuff.

E.g., it took not just a lot of thinking, but a very specific state organization in Greece, to come up with formal logic. Because it was an answer to the question of how to convince people you're right, and not be out-talked by a fast talking guy, if your life depended on it. Which it did, because their trials were just a matter of who can talk the judges into seeing things his way, and there really were no standards of evidence or even common sense. You could end up with stuff like more people voting that Socrates deserves to die for his offense, than had voted that there was an offense in the first place, just because he epically failed that stage of his talking to them. So how do you convince people that, from presented evidence X and Y, you can't deduce Z, even if that other guy is awesome at stringing fallacies to that effect? Hell, how can you convince them that they can't follow an "X therefore Y", e.g., "offense X, therefore punishment Y", when they just ruled that X is false?

A civilization of complete class-3 morons or worse ain't gonna come up with that, or it won't spread. Even if a unique guy were to be born that can figure that out, he's not going to convince the rest of the morons that that makes sense.

To make a long story short(er), I think the only way such a civilization would have interstellar travel is if they got it from some people who were NOT morons. Either some other alien species entirely built a factory for those morons to build their ships in, for no obvious reason, or, Idiocracy style, they once were actually capable of a lot more thinking.
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Old 8th October 2015, 12:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post

To make a long story short(er), I think the only way such a civilization would have interstellar travel is if they got it from some people who were NOT morons. Either some other alien species entirely built a factory for those morons to build their ships in, for no obvious reason, or, Idiocracy style, they once were actually capable of a lot more thinking.
I seem to remember an ancient science fiction story about some very bright space-faring aliens who took along some really dumb aliens as pets to entertain them during the journey. When they crashed on Earth the smart aliens all died off, leaving the better-adapted dumb aliens to become our ancestors.
Or am I just thinking of the Golgafrinchans and the B Ark?
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Old 8th October 2015, 06:33 PM   #34
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Or the story (sorry can't remember the author) about the alien invader who is picked up by his parents who apologize and drop a huge dollar bill from their space craft as they take him home?
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Old 8th October 2015, 08:09 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
I think that there may be two reasons.

The first is magazine editor Ray Palmer. In the 1940's, he was editor of science-fiction magazine Amazing Stories

The second is the US Air Force's involvement and the coverup conspiracy theory that many UFOlogists came to believe about it.


Finally, UFO contact vs. UFO abduction cases. I think that the accounts of contactees provoked a lot of skepticism because to many people, they seemed too good to be true. UFO abductees' accounts don't have that quality.
There are other reasons closely related to technology that has to be discussed. I remember reading about (though I forget where) the direct correlation between technical innovation and the fear of UFOs. How everything that is associated with the myth is fueled by people's paranoia of such new technologies and innovations from vaccines to computers.

Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Interesting how UFO technology always stays just one step ahead of human technology.
That being said, at the same time the unprecedented rise and interest in science fiction probably overloaded the sub-conscious of western civilization.

Note how some pointed out the differences between the ever changing shape and shocking adaptive UFOs over the years. UFOs (if they were real) couldn't have changed that drastically through decades. Why would they? Just to compensate for new HUMAN technologies? Come on now. If you look back at the reports from before Rosewell you'll see there is less technology and less of a consensus in those reports. Most just describe the strange object and they nearly all don't have an abduction story attached to them. After Rosewell things changed drastically Especially after the first so-called abduction story hit the papers. Then, all of them followed the same pattern!

These aliens have to be pretty stupid to allow that to happen! So if it's not aliens, what it is? A very interesting psychological ripple effect that has yet to be studied in depth.

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Old 8th October 2015, 08:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'd say it's even more interesting how the intelligence of aliens takes a nose-dive over time.

- millions of years ago: capable of engineering new sentient life

- 5000 years ago: can only teach humans how to stack big rocks on top of each other, and how to write exclusively via icons and emoticons, like it's 13 year olds on their first smartphone. Which I suppose would also explain the Egyptian obsession with cats

- 20'th century: starts from pointlessly flying around aircraft and nuclear explosions (a spacefaring species could observe from greater distances, unless again they're into it just to take a selfie with a terran bomber) and goes downhill into cutting vaginas and anuses off dead cows, flattening circles into crops, and anal probing inbred hicks

It's like alien Idiocracy, I tell ya.


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Old 8th October 2015, 10:51 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Or the story (sorry can't remember the author) about the alien invader who is picked up by his parents who apologize and drop a huge dollar bill from their space craft as they take him home?
Well, minus the dollar bill, it does remind me of Trelane, the self-styled "squire of Gothos", from ST TOS: The Squire Of Gothos episode. Which turns out to be pretty much a baby Q, and is finally taken home by his parents, while throwing the stereotypical "I never get to do anything fun!" child tantrum.
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Old 8th October 2015, 11:18 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by fedupwithCT View Post
There are other reasons closely related to technology that has to be discussed. I remember reading about (though I forget where) the direct correlation between technical innovation and the fear of UFOs. How everything that is associated with the myth is fueled by people's paranoia of such new technologies and innovations from vaccines to computers.
There are too many confounding factors that allow a correlation with technological innovation to have much meaning. For example, what immediately came to my mind was the Cold War which, by itself, was a large driving force for technological innovation. The overheated scare of the Red MenaceTM helped in the paranoia department.

One factor in the USA not mentioned yet was Art Bell's Coast-to-Coast broadcasts. The guy gave huge blocks of time to nutbars promoting things like remote-viewing, moon artifacts (Hoagland) and others. (He also entertained the notion of bigfoot). I really don't know how much influence he had in keeping the meme going. I'd guess that Noory doesn't have the same following or impact.
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Old 9th October 2015, 01:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
There are too many confounding factors that allow a correlation with technological innovation to have much meaning. For example, what immediately came to my mind was the Cold War which, by itself, was a large driving force for technological innovation. The overheated scare of the Red MenaceTM helped in the paranoia department.

One factor in the USA not mentioned yet was Art Bell's Coast-to-Coast broadcasts. The guy gave huge blocks of time to nutbars promoting things like remote-viewing, moon artifacts (Hoagland) and others. (He also entertained the notion of bigfoot). I really don't know how much influence he had in keeping the meme going. I'd guess that Noory doesn't have the same following or impact.
I heard a pretty compelling argument that alien abduction scenarios were directly related to rise in successful surgeries and other medical operations. People's subconscious may have feared going on a metal slab surrounded by needles and "alien-like" medical equipment. So a dream or a "hypnosis" session would re-awaken those fears.

Why talk about Art Bell in past tense. The guy is still around and hugely popular especially in rural areas of the country.
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Old 9th October 2015, 06:13 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by fedupwithCT View Post
Why talk about Art Bell in past tense. The guy is still around and hugely popular especially in rural areas of the country.
He is! Wow. News to me. Noory still does Coast-to-Coast, right? I thought Art moved to SE Asia and to a new phase in his life. I guess I'll go look to see if Wiki has more current info.
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